THESE FORUMS NOW CLOSED (read only)

  • 18 May 2024, 03:14
  • Welcome, Guest
Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: need advice/criticism/screams of pain (UPDATED 5/17)  (Read 3880 times)

Mikendher

  • Guest

Any comments at all would be awesome :-)

UPDATED VERSION:Michael Jermyn - Scarecrow

Michael Jermyn - Fireworks Trembling In Our Hair (Old)

Michael Jermyn - Burn! Your! Lips! (Old)

The vocals are what I'm most worried about. Advice?

(Just to note, I have posted it in actual recording forums, but they weren't helpful at all, and honestly I consider you all much more helpful and to have better judgment with music)[/url]
Logged

karl gambolputty...

  • FIGHT YOU
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 448
need advice/criticism/screams of pain (UPDATED 5/17)
« Reply #1 on: 13 May 2006, 14:57 »

I like the melody, but the shift (around 2 and a half minutes in) seems a little abrupt.  As far as the vocals go, not bad.  I'm guessing you're going for the wistful-sort-of-thing, but maybe a little more force during the verses wouldn't hurt.
Logged

Mikendher

  • Guest
need advice/criticism/screams of pain (UPDATED 5/17)
« Reply #2 on: 13 May 2006, 17:17 »

I definitely agree about the more force thing. I'm very unaggresive vocally, which is a problem for this song because it is such a powerful song (unlike all of my acoustic stuff). That's why I added distortion, to make up for my lack of vocal aggression. I think I should probably just get it right to start with though.

As for the abrupt change, I kind of like it, because it's completely unexpected. But I'm open to suggestions as to how to change it?
Logged

karl gambolputty...

  • FIGHT YOU
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 448
need advice/criticism/screams of pain (UPDATED 5/17)
« Reply #3 on: 13 May 2006, 18:50 »

If you like it, don't change it.  It's completely up to personal taste, and yours is just about the only one that matters when it comes to stuff like that.
Logged

Johnny C

  • Mentat
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9,483
  • i wanna be yr slide dog
    • I AM A WHORE FOR MY OWN MUSIC
need advice/criticism/screams of pain (UPDATED 5/17)
« Reply #4 on: 13 May 2006, 20:24 »

One, reverb plus vocals. Try it. It is your friend. With your voice's unagressive tendencies, the way you have it is right up to the listener and that frankly makes it seem even quieter. Reverb will add a distant, dreamy quality, if used in the right dosage. Sound-wise, the distortion only really works if you sing with a little more punch and the occasional "yaeuuuuuuaoh!" scream (see: The Strokes, The Bravery).

Two, I like the shift.

Three, I'm with karl. Don't dick with the song itself. I think you should try different production things but besides that, stick with it.
Logged
[02:12] yuniorpocalypse: let's talk about girls
[02:12] Thug In Kitchen: nooo

Mikendher

  • Guest
need advice/criticism/screams of pain (UPDATED 5/17)
« Reply #5 on: 14 May 2006, 14:01 »

Thanks for the advice! Reverb is definitely the way to go I am finding.
Logged

ashley

  • Guest
need advice/criticism/screams of pain (UPDATED 5/17)
« Reply #6 on: 14 May 2006, 16:55 »

I like it!
I agree with the people above who said that you could use a little more force in your voice. But the rest is good!
And I also like when the vocals are on top of the vocals ("We don't care"). I like the way that sounds.

Do you have any more songs you'd be willing to share?
Also, if you change anything around in this song be sure to post the new version!
Logged

Mikendher

  • Guest
need advice/criticism/screams of pain (UPDATED 5/17)
« Reply #7 on: 15 May 2006, 14:19 »

Alright, I've changed quite a bit. Here's the updated version:

Michael Jermyn - Fireworks Trembling In Our Hair

Advice? Now the only part I'm uncomfortable with is the "oooh" part. Suggestions?
Logged

Slick

  • Lovecraftian nightmare
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,788
  • I am become biscuit
need advice/criticism/screams of pain (UPDATED 5/17)
« Reply #8 on: 15 May 2006, 14:58 »

I can't seem to download it, I get an error off the link. Maybe the IT desk filters it out at work here. Anyone else have trouble downloading/another way of hosting?
From the talk, yes reverb is your friend and distortion is a tricky mistress. I haven't heard it so I can't say for sure, but a lot of the people I've recorded have had problems singing too weakly/softly and wavering off key a bit; I don't know if that's what you mean by unagrassively, but make sure you can put enough volume out to keep a good note.
Hope I get to hear it!
Logged
It's a roasted cocoa bean, commonly found in vaginas.

Mikendher

  • Guest
need advice/criticism/screams of pain (UPDATED 5/17)
« Reply #9 on: 15 May 2006, 15:05 »

The link is working, but I've uploaded it here also, but it will be much slower (downloading from my server): Michael Jermyn - Fireworks Trembling In Our Hair
Logged

Johnny C

  • Mentat
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9,483
  • i wanna be yr slide dog
    • I AM A WHORE FOR MY OWN MUSIC
need advice/criticism/screams of pain (UPDATED 5/17)
« Reply #10 on: 15 May 2006, 15:38 »

I like this. The wavering's still there, but you've produced it to sound quiet and intimate and that's the way the song should be.

Also, the oohs are a bit off key. Solution: record an instrumental track underneath it to sing along to and then eliminate said track from the final mix. I'd recommend doing this for each seperate layer of vocals, muting the previous vocals each time so you've got a generally focused sound. It'll take a while but it works.

Final suggestion: for shouting "on fire," move away from the mic and belt it. Or, again, record that seperately. Then move it to one speaker or something. I am getting carried away here. But seriously, amp up the rock on "on fire."
Logged
[02:12] yuniorpocalypse: let's talk about girls
[02:12] Thug In Kitchen: nooo

Merkava

  • Guest
need advice/criticism/screams of pain (UPDATED 5/17)
« Reply #11 on: 15 May 2006, 17:25 »

I like this. The only ideas I have are maybe adding a bit more space between the first part of the song and the "on fire" part. I think some sort of bridge should be put between those parts, it's a bit too sudden. Maybe you could get some more drum action in there. Also, the "on fire" could be a bit more powerful. I like what Johnny's saying. I think you could drop your pitch a bit when you belt out that line too. It would add an interesting contrast.

Just some ideas to play around with.
Logged

Slick

  • Lovecraftian nightmare
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,788
  • I am become biscuit
need advice/criticism/screams of pain (UPDATED 5/17)
« Reply #12 on: 15 May 2006, 18:44 »

I like!

When you've got syncing overlapping vocals (even when the light's out), I would suggest panning either track to one side, at least a little. I'm not listening in stereo so you might be doing this already, but be careful not to abuse panning though; that's one of the things that's real fun to play with while mastering but can just sound screwy later.

The 'we don't care, don't you care' sounds a bit distorted, not sure if that's what you're going for, but I think that doesn't fit with your soft singing. Distortion doesn't work well with low levels like that, so I'd recommend picking up the volume there if you want distortion.

What Johnny said about the oohs. Scratch tracks, we called them, are also incredibly useful for getting the timing right, so I'd also suggest it in combination with a metronome for that part because the base sounds just a touch loose when it comes in at first, and you want that to be solid. So solid that you'll fell more stable just standing listening to it. Also, I'd try and pump up the bass a bit, at that point it is the star. The bass just comes in and says 'Hey. Get my wallet. It's the one with bad mother fucker on it.' and it just brings in the awesome that is the second half.

When I first listened through on my laptop's speakers, I agreed with Merkava about the bridge, but on better speakers where you get enough of the bass I think it works just fine. Remember to push the bass! Get hard on the picking, get aggressive there and just play it out. That's how I think that should sound there. Your song is rocking then, and the bass is key for that sort of stuff.
I am a bass player and might have some bias there, but you really need it to come in and put an end to soft and put a start on the rock.

But back to the oohs, position the mic above you and tilt your head back so you've got a straight path from your lungs. You should be able to feel it, it'll help your out there, with the volume and tone you need for that sort of thing.

And again, Johnny knows what he's talking about, when you want a strong shout back up and belt it. Just let it go. I'd think it'd sound better centered instead of panned there, but definitely try it out on a side. That's the fun of mixing tracks!

Also, for vocals in general, you might like drinking more citric beverage (grapefruit juice yay!), as it cleans your throat. Avoid sweetened stuff because sugar just coats your throat. Pop is the enemy. I knew a girl who just drank lemon juice. Straight lemon juice. Concentrate. The stuff that comes in the little plastic lemon shaped bottles. That might hinder the soft wavy you've got going in the beginning, but it'll help with the oohs and the 'on fire'.

Composition wise, I'd just say bring in some more drums in the second half (not necessarily from the start), to fill it out more and keep up the momentum. Yeah, totally! When the vocals start, bring in a snare going twice as fast as the kick, and throw in some hi hat semi-regularly, then pick up the pace after the first 'on fire'. I'll try not to get to specific though, you should be able to figure out what you like with a drum machine, but picking up some drums will fill out the last segment nicely.
Once again, rock the bass. It needs a fierce potency there.
I really like the violiny sound that comes in before the bass on the ooh part as well.

Phew. Hope this isn't overkill, but I've had to show a lot of people how to mix and master tracks, and I've gotten super critical 'cause you want a finished product that rocks. Plus I've dealt with a good few kids who don't know anything about recording, but you're definitely doing well here. Most of what I've got to say is fine tuning, I'm just blunt with this stuff because I want it to sound good. But 'sound good' can be subjective, so take what you want, right.
Logged
It's a roasted cocoa bean, commonly found in vaginas.

Mikendher

  • Guest
need advice/criticism/screams of pain (UPDATED 5/17)
« Reply #13 on: 15 May 2006, 19:15 »

Wow! I really appreciate all of the help and suggestions. It's the best way for me to improve.

Johnny: I will try your suggestion for the "oooh" part and see how it goes. I didn't realize I was out of key until I listened with headphones, which is really bizarre because usually I catch that kind of thing quickly. As for the "on fire" thing, I don't think I can sing any more aggresively, this is the most aggresive I've ever sung. I really just don't know how to. But I will try and see what happens.

Merkava: I'm pretty content with the structure of the song, and I like the all-of-a-sudden-ness of it. I do need some more drum action though... (see below)

Slick: The syncing overlapping vocals are already panned a bit, just enough in my opinion. I did intend the distortion for the "we don't care, don't you care" part, because it sounds powerful and leads into the change. But it is incongruent with the first part... I'll think about that. I know the bass got a little loose, mainly because I've only played bass for a month, which is also the reason it's not very agressive. But I'll try get at least the timing right, and then mabye boost the volume a little. The problem is I'd have to record the entire bass track again... and I don't know if I could (my bass skills are nonexistent). As for the drums, I just used a drum machine emulator on the computer, because I don't own drums. Thus, I don't actually know how to compose drum tracks well. I will try the snare and hi-hat suggestions though, and see if I can get it to sink in to the mix.
And also, thanks for writing all of that up! :-)

As you can probably tell, I have to bootstrap most of my music, because of lack of instruments or experience with them. That's where a lot of the problems are coming from. But yeah, thanks for the advice!
Logged

Slick

  • Lovecraftian nightmare
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,788
  • I am become biscuit
need advice/criticism/screams of pain (UPDATED 5/17)
« Reply #14 on: 15 May 2006, 19:29 »

Hey, I'll shut up now, but...

The distortion is a good idea, I'd say keep it, but just get a stronger vocal part there, because the soft doesn't distort well, it's just the physics of the matter.

And play with the drum emulator, it is your friend. Before you know it you'll be putting out drum solo tracks, those things are wayyyy too fun to be legal.

And no thanks necessary for the big write up, you know I've gota love to hear myself talk about this stuff.

Done!
Logged
It's a roasted cocoa bean, commonly found in vaginas.

Mikendher

  • Guest
need advice/criticism/screams of pain (UPDATED 5/17)
« Reply #15 on: 17 May 2006, 17:51 »

Alright, I've changed a couple things:

Michael Jermyn - Scarecrow

I tried redoing the oooh part... but it lacked the punch of my previous attempt... it was too plain. I realized that the harmonic dissonance was actually making it sound better (at least to me), so I merged the previous vocal tracks with my recent attempt. Now the oooh part has 16 vocal tracks, hah. I think it sounds good (better at least). I also undistorted the remaining small distorted vocal thing: "we don't care, don't you care", and changed/added a couple small things. I tried adding different drum parts, but it never sat quite right, so I scratched that. I also tried redoing the bass and the "on fire" part, but couldn't improve upon them. Let me know what you think.
Logged

Johnny C

  • Mentat
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9,483
  • i wanna be yr slide dog
    • I AM A WHORE FOR MY OWN MUSIC
need advice/criticism/screams of pain (UPDATED 5/17)
« Reply #16 on: 17 May 2006, 20:25 »

Those "ooos" are fucking rad, and the coda's very Arcade Fire. Dude I am loving this! I think this is the best quality you'll get from a demo, and I would be very happy with it if I was you.
Logged
[02:12] yuniorpocalypse: let's talk about girls
[02:12] Thug In Kitchen: nooo

Mikendher

  • Guest
need advice/criticism/screams of pain (UPDATED 5/17)
« Reply #17 on: 18 May 2006, 09:54 »

Thanks! I am quite happy with it. Thank you for all of your help. :-)

Now I just have the impossible task of making this fit in with the rest of my music.
Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up