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[Mikendher]

I have always wondered why for most people it is easier to understand and play in 4/4 time signatures for music. I used to suspect that it was just self-perpetuating, that it was only because most popular music is written in 4/4. But it seems to even be true of people who have had little to no exposure to music with time signatures.

Thoughts? Comments? Criticism? Screams of hatred and pain?

[David_Dovey]

I too have pondered this question and the best I can come up with is that humans just like things that are divided into 2, 4, 3 or by the Golden Ratio (i.e; approximately 1:1.. This is true of arcitecture, graphic design, and art, so why not music?

[HFrankenstein]

I think it's mostly a Western thing.  I'm basing this on stuff that I learned in college more than four years ago, but my understanding is that Eastern music isn't quite as locked into multiples of 2 and 3, and sometimes doesn't have any meter at all.  But I may be completely wrong about that.

If I were to think about this based on human nature, I think humans just like things that come in 2's and 3's, I forget the reason.  We also like things that divide evenly, which is why the most common meters are multiples of 2 and 3, such as 4/4 and 6/8.

I'm thinking it's just a chicken-or-the-egg thing in the West.  Which came first, the person playing in 4, or the person copying him?  I think it just kind of developed naturally, the way languages do.  And actually, since musical atunement is borne from our linguistic necessities, since because rhythm and pitch are such important facets of a language, we have developed a natural affinity for the two concepts, this just may be the case.

Some of the best stuff is in weird meters, though.  The opening to Zepp's The Ocean has three bars of 4, followed by one of 3.  Pink Floyd's Money is in 7.  I can't think of any others off hand, but I know they're out there.

EDIT: Fixed spelling.

[a pack of wolves]

I think you're probably right about it being a cultural thing. A friend of mine spent some time in Cuba and said that the musicians he met there tended to naturally go into 5/4 instead of 4/4.

[rynne]

Like HFrankenstein said, there’s a (Western) tendency to think of a measure and then divide it into smaller portions, with 4/4 (and derivatives) being a fairly simple way of doing so—divide the measure in half, then divide both the halves in half, and so on.

From what I understand, a lot of music in the Mid East and Far East take a somewhat different view by building up measures from smaller rhythmical units.  I believe this different way of thinking influenced a lot of minimalist composers.  These built-up rhythms aren’t necessarily regular, so they end up geing transcribed as odd time signatures in the Western sense.

Personally, if I’m playing my guitar, I tend to think in 3’s.  More often than not, I’ll fall into 3/4 time or something with triplets (6/8, 12/8, etc.)

[KharBevNor]

Because 4/4 is the most common time signature in western music, and the simplest to play in with our system of music theory, it is the one we are most exposed to, especially in, say, nursery rhymes, and thus its our default metre. Entirely cultural. Look at African music for an example of how different things can be.

Various people also claim it synchs in to the heartbeat, which may be true, but I remain unconvinced.

[Rebourne]

Yeah, I think David was right, it is because it's a constant even 1:1 beat.

I always record myself playing guitar so I can listen back to it later and then I take the good ideas and tab them out so I won't forget.  The thing I've notice about myself is even within the same passage I allways have strange time signitures and sometime alternating ones, also between parts of the songs like chorus and intros or what have you my tempo will also change.

I used to mash them up till they would fit in a more acceptable notation, but they never ended up sounding like me.  So I just leave the weirdness intact, if you write 4/4 great, but if you don't that's okay to just be yourself.

[Thrillho]

The fact that most popular music is in 4/4 is the reason why most of mine is in 6/8 or 5/4, or even 8/8 just for different accentuations.

[IronOxide]

I personally find music bizarre if it is not written in 17/8.

[ALoveSupreme]

The fact that most popular music is in 4/4 is the reason why most of mine is in 6/8 or 5/4, or even 8/8 just for different accentuations.

A lot of pop music is in 6/8 as well.

Maybe it just became trendy for a while, but a bunch of bands I heard a bit back were frequently using 7/4 and other weird stuff (I know it's not the particular bag of this forum, but the band The Junior Varsity uses some pretty weird stuff, i.e. Demo Car City, If You Could Paint Your Own Vacation, and some more that I don't really remember).  I'm still not really sure what the meter was for a song an older band of mine wrote.  The "feel" of it was two bars of 3, one of 4 and then one bar of 3. 

Anyways, the same question could be asked of why Western music only uses 12 tones in it's scale.  A lot of eastern music uses pleanty of quarter tones that I'm guessing is never heard 'round these parts.

[jeph]

Various people also claim it synchs in to the heartbeat, which may be true, but I remain unconvinced.

It doesn't synch in with the heartbeat any better than any other meter, unless you're specifically arranging heartbeats into 4/4 measures.

"thumpthump, thumpthump, thumpthump, thumpthump" (4/4) is really no different than "thumpthump, thumpthump,thumpthump" (3/4) unless you are imposing measures on top of the base rhythm.

A well-regarded modern classical composer once spoke at a class back at Hampshire when I was a music student. He wrote off the entirety of 20th-century popular music by saying "it's all the same beat."

It took all my willpower not to ask him how many people he thought could hum one of his songs by memory. I probably should have ripped his stuffy, pretentious head off, in hindsight.

[Mikendher]

I think people are probably right about it being a cultural thing.

It's a very interesting phenomenon. Many of my friends can't tap along to a 3/4 time signature.

[HFrankenstein]

Another thing I forgot to mention earlier: have you ever noticed that a lot of the best violinists are Chinese?  A part of that is due to the languages spoken in China.  Good violin playing requires a very sharp ear for pitch, and it so turns out that Chinese languages like Cantonese and Mandarin use pitch as part of their syntax.  One syllable inflected a certain way might mean something entirely different when inflected with a different pitch.  Because of that, over the centuries, many speakers of Chinese dialects have developed a very acute sense of pitch.

Completely irrelevant to the current discussion, but something that I find interesting. 

[Johnny C]

It took all my willpower not to ask him how many people he thought could hum one of his songs by memory. I probably should have ripped his stuffy, pretentious head off, in hindsight.

You should have turned his skin into a drum and beat it in 4/4 time.

[Splunkle]

Time signatures are probably cultural - but they aren't the ideal way to describe rythym, methinks.  For example, 8/4 can be split up as such:

1-2 1-2 1-2 1-2

That is, 2 beats forms a kind of.... ultra-beat.  Or something.  But its also possible to split 8/4 up like so:

1-2-3 1-2-3 1-2

So you have 3 ultra-beats.  It is clear that these ways of spliting up 8/4 are quite different.  Now I've heard stuff like the first one is really just 4/4, but not.... this strikes me as a rather silly way of explaining it.  Still, time signatures are preety spiffy.

interesting factoid:  Most Hip-hop is a heavily syncopated 4/4 beat.  Its all about the snare, people.

[timehat]

A lot of pop music is in 6/8 as well.

Maybe it just became trendy for a while, but a bunch of bands I heard a bit back were frequently using 7/4 and other weird stuff (I know it's not the particular bag of this forum, but the band The Junior Varsity uses some pretty weird stuff, i.e. Demo Car City, If You Could Paint Your Own Vacation, and some more that I don't really remember).  I'm still not really sure what the meter was for a song an older band of mine wrote.  The "feel" of it was two bars of 3, one of 4 and then one bar of 3. 

Anyways, the same question could be asked of why Western music only uses 12 tones in it's scale.  A lot of eastern music uses pleanty of quarter tones that I'm guessing is never heard 'round these parts.

Yes, but in reality, 6/8 is two groups of triplets, so you could really think of it as 2/3 which isn't a real time signature, but the real beat is the dotted quarter, and the eigth notes are the subdivisions. Speaking of 7/4, Broken Social Scene has that song "7/4 Shoreline", which I thought was a pretty cool song, but a ridiculous title (Apocalypse in 9/8, anyone?). Also, there is some variation from 12 tone music in western society. Jazz and Blues use bends and glissandi wich are sometimes specifcally inflected microtones, which supposedly comes from the African music heritage. Also, the (American, I believe) composer Harry Partch worked with microtonality quite often and supposedly wrote some "microtonal operas" which I haven't heard, so I can't give you a personal opinion on it or anything, but maybe you'd like to check it out.

[ALoveSupreme]

Well, of all the things I've heard in my day, this Harry Partch character is definatly not one of them.  I will definatly look into that.  Thanks.

*edited for unnecessary quotes.

[Thrillho]

The fact that most popular music is in 4/4 is the reason why most of mine is in 6/8 or 5/4, or even 8/8 just for different accentuations.

A lot of pop music is in 6/8 as well.

Yes. But I choose to ignore it because it's my favourite timing.

[ALoveSupreme]

Agreed.  Waltzes > most anything.

[Misereatur]

Aren't Waltzes usually in 3/4? There is a difference.

[Thrillho]

Yes, waltzes are in 3/4, not 6/8. The accents are different.

[nekooo]

Could someone possible explain time signatures in laymans terms?

[rynne]

In the simplest terms, the first number indicates how many beats there are per measure while the second indicates what length of note counts as a beat.

For example, 4/4 time tells us that there are four beats per measure and each beat is one quarter-note.  3/4 time is three one-quarter-note beats per measure, and 6/8 time is six one-eighth-note beats per measure.  Western pop music is generally written in 4/4 time (the beat is 1-2-3-4, 1-2-3-4).

Because of our musical nomenclature, the second number is always a power of 2: 1, 2, 4, 8, etc….  As to what that second number actually means, well, it can be kind of arbitrary.  Wikipedia has a long explaination that touches on the more subtle aspects.

[ALoveSupreme]

Yes, waltzes are in 3/4, not 6/8. The accents are different.

Well, I remember sheet music saying 6/8.  After looking a little online, they can be done in both, but apperantly primarily quicker ones are in 6/8.

[IronOxide]

3/4 if you're doing it in 3 or 1, 6/8 in 2, 9/8 in 3, 12/8 in 4. Waltzes can be in all different meters as long as they are compound.

[CaptainLorax]

If I had my way the metronome would be coordinated with the resting heartbeat

[nuisance]

I remember reading comments from Dave Brubeck (famous for playing in strange, un-swinging time signatures, as in his group's most popular tune, Take Five) that when he played in Eastern Europe people would happily clap along in whatever non-standard time they were in.  I reckon that reinforces the notion that its purely cultural convention.

I've written things in a variety of time signatures, but I don't find it comes naturally.  Dropping out beats every now and then is pretty easy though... happens every now and then in pop music.  Classic disco examples I remember being Blondie's Heart of Glass and The Bee-Gees' Jive Talking.

[Thrillho]

I find that recently I've been able to play songs that drop beats or lose time signatures fairly easily, whereas I had difficulty before. I think this comes from learning songs with weirder time signatures. I could probably trace the origin of my ease with time signatures now back to the day I knew I could play and sing 'Money' by Pink Floyd at the same time.

These days I like putting covers into weird time signatures, such as my version of the Arctic Monkeys 'I Bet You Look Good On The Dancefloor' which is, in different parts, in 6/8 or 5/4 and played in a jazz styley with piano solos.

[timehat]

I've had similar experience. I think I've spent so much time listening to music with ridiculous time signatures as well as forcing myself to play in odd timing have rendered my musical ability to the point where when I write, I'm probably more likely to naturally come up with parts that aren't in 4/4, 3/4, or 6/8 and often, when they are in normal time signatures, the amount of measures in the section is strange. So I guess what I'm saying is that I successfully 'broke' my sense of timing.

[elcapitan]

I too have pondered this question and the best I can come up with is that humans just like things that are divided into 2, 4, 3 or by the Golden Ratio (i.e; approximately 1:1.. This is true of arcitecture, graphic design, and art, so why not music?

Kinda. Some interesting comments about phi, the Fibonacci sequence and music can be found here and here.

Also, this thread gets two thumbs up.

[Misereatur]

Playing and writing in non-standart time signatures is just fun and interesting, more then playing in 4/4 anyway. The trick is knowing how to count them right. Counting 7/4 like 1-2-3-4-5-6-7 is rather confusing, while counting them as 1-2-3-4-1-2-3 feels more natural.  Like counting 6/8 as 1-2-3-1-2-3 and not like 1-2-3-4-5-6.

[ALoveSupreme]

I always counted 6/8 one 2 3 four 5 6
seemed to work, and maintained the integrity of the signature.

[timehat]

Playing and writing in non-standart time signatures is just fun and interesting, more then playing in 4/4 anyway. The trick is knowing how to count them right. Counting 7/4 like 1-2-3-4-5-6-7 is rather confusing, while counting them as 1-2-3-4-1-2-3 feels more natural.  Like counting 6/8 as 1-2-3-1-2-3 and not like 1-2-3-4-5-6.

I think that depends on the actual groove. You can have a 7/4 rhythm that's 4+3 or 3+4 or possibly 2+3+2 or one that's actually divided evenly down the measure due to an offbeat accent.

[Misereatur]

What I was trying to say is that every player needs to find a way to count those time signatures in a way that wont be confusing to him. I mean, if I'll play somthing in 7/4 and count them as 1-2-3-4-5-6-7 I would'nt be able to get past the first bar. Counting 7/4 like 1-2-3-4-1-2-3 (or even 1-2-1-2-1-2-3) is easier to me.
Also, timehat, unless the band leader/composer/song writer tells me otherwise, that's how I'll count 7/4 (1-2-3-4-1-2-3). Same with 6/8 (1-2-3-1-2-3).I can count those time signatures in loads of other ways, it all depends on what I as a player feel is right for the song, or what the composer decided.

[Slick]

Dave Brubeck is quite something. I don't have it, but a friend played a recording of him playing two different melodies in two different times with his two different hands.

I peronally write in 6/8 and phase in and out of 1,2,3,4,5,6 and 1,2,3,4,5,6. Or go from 6/8 to something like 2/(8/3). I only realised I was doing it after re-listening and mastering a recorded track I did.

On a related note, I recommend everyone watch the movie ravenous. A little diturbing, but it has an excellent soundtrack in funny times.

[David_Dovey]

What I was trying to say is that every player needs to find a way to count those time signatures in a way that wont be confusing to him. I mean, if I'll play somthing in 7/4 and count them as 1-2-3-4-5-6-7 I would'nt be able to get past the first bar. Counting 7/4 like 1-2-3-4-1-2-3 (or even 1-2-1-2-1-2-3) is easier to me.
Also, timehat, unless the band leader/composer/song writer tells me otherwise, that's how I'll count 7/4 (1-2-3-4-1-2-3). Same with 6/8 (1-2-3-1-2-3).I can count those time signatures in loads of other ways, it all depends on what I as a player feel is right for the song, or what the composer decided.

Well, most time signatures (in particular compund time sigs) have a pretty set pulse to begin with, and that's why a lot of time signatures exist that at first glance seem kinda superfluous, such as 8/8. Although 8/8 on the surface is just a silly version of 4/4, the pulse in it is 1-2-3-1-2-3-1-2. Ditto the distinction between 7/4 and 7/8.

[timehat]

I used to think that way too, but apparently certain things are easier for performers to read. I was working on a composition and had a section in 7/4, and the way I wrote it was obscuring the beat pretty badly, so my teacher said, "Well, first, let's see if this is 3=4 or vice versa," but the rhythm shifted to the off beat before 3 beats, so it didn't really work out very well. So what was decided was that I should turn it into two measures of 7/8, which would make the beat easier to see and represent the rhythm more clearly. At the 8th note level, I could probably split it into 3 and 4, but a measure of 3/8 at that tempo would go by so fast that it would probably be ridiculous and make reading it even worse since you'd have all these time signature notations in the way constantly.

[Dimmukane]

Time signatures don't bother me at all.  I listen to all of them at one point or another.  And when Paul Simon went to Africa to try and figure out the time signature for african drumming, he got something like 7/15 and gave up.