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Poll

Which side are you on?

For The Act (Iron Man's Faction)
- 4 (16%)
Against The Act (Captain America's Faction)
- 17 (68%)
Neutral (Stephen Strange etc.)
- 4 (16%)

Total Members Voted: 10


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Author Topic: The Marvel Civil War  (Read 27045 times)

alonelyargonaut

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The Marvel Civil War
« on: 09 Nov 2006, 22:36 »

Consider this.  Think about it in terms of safety and real benifit for the heroes of the marvel universe and the other people populating that universe.

When one considers the real implications of the act, and the benifits the whole thing becomes alot less clear cut.  Cause initiall I am all for Captain America's anti-registration faction.  But then I have to look at it in terms of if I lived in the marvel universe and there were all these people with power enough to kill me be it by accident or by desire.  The need for regulation or monitoring seems really logical.  I mean we're talking about weapons here, some with more power than the bombs they dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

On the flip side we also have to consider the safety and the privacy of the Superheroes.  The fact that there are also supervillains who have those powers who wont register and who continue to put us at risk.  Is it really worth it to jepordize the safety of those who watch over us?  What is necessary and proper?  Because in truth these heroes are in fact law breakers, vigilantes, with their own agenda and set of moral beliefs which don't always align to the beliefs and laws of the US.  So it's up in the air gents.

Consider this as a person of the Marvel Universe.  Where would you really stand?
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TheLanyard

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Re: The Marvel Civil War
« Reply #1 on: 09 Nov 2006, 23:00 »

Right but it's also sorta discrimination isn't it (haven't been able to follow the full story).  I mean, that's like making all blind people and asians register for some public listing but letting everyone else live in normalcy.  Who gets to draw the lines on stuff like that?  Seems like it should have been voted on by the masses (I'm assuming it wasn't).
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thepugs

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Re: The Marvel Civil War
« Reply #2 on: 09 Nov 2006, 23:16 »

It always bothered me, the whole Civil War thing.  I mean, it's cool, but things have just blown way out of proportion.  Lots of people died in regards to mutant-related incidents in the Marvel Universe before, all of a sudden a bunch of kids dying in a freak accident calls for this giant split?  Personally, I'm all against it.
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alonelyargonaut

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Re: The Marvel Civil War
« Reply #3 on: 10 Nov 2006, 00:06 »

Thelanyard:  I agree with you about the discrimination thing mostly.  I agree with you on the voted by the masses thing, but i disagree on comparing it to blindness.  People are required to register handguns.  that's a safety thing and a legal thing, and i think that better fits to what the situation is.

to thepugs: in terms of people dying before hand I think the marvel universe has reached a more politically minded stage.  the idea of a Mutant/Superhuman registration act has been kicked around before (mostly in the late 80s early 90s) but that the world is reaching this convulsive and volatile stage of existence.  racial discrimination wasn't outlawed with the first black hangings earlier this century, and it was just a collision of little things, and active enough people to get this sort of thing started.  This makes sense with the social evolution into the information age.  Death of kids is just something that really gets to people and so many went for such a dumb little mistake that it woke people up.

I have yet to vote one way or another as to where i stand on the whole act because the more i think about it the more and more vehmently i see each side of the argument.  This becomes a really interesting hotbed of debate when it is looked at in terms of the real world, and the fact that these people have so much power (more so than any conventional weapon available to the public, and sometimes more so than those available to the government) that any little mistake or wrong look can set them off and put your life in jepordy.

Now in terms of the way it is being handled by Iron Man's faction in the comic book I disagree completely.  What we are seeing is nothing short of a Mutant-Holocaust.  Taking this sort of approach the writers took i think is meant to drive us towards the opposing faction headed by Captain America.  While this is fine and dandy I would've preferred to see less of a vilanization of Iron Man and more legitimacy of his side.
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MatticusPrime

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Re: The Marvel Civil War
« Reply #4 on: 10 Nov 2006, 02:19 »

I'm anti-registration on the grounds of discrimination and violation of natural rights.
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alonelyargonaut

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Re: The Marvel Civil War
« Reply #5 on: 10 Nov 2006, 03:49 »

right on.  but to play devils advocate what they're doing jepordizes our natural rights and places us in an excess level of danger.  if there were government regulations put on them (and i'm not talking that they need to come out to the public, but at least have a confidential government registry of heroes). 

If the registration were aimed to maintain the heroic anonymity in the public eye, and to lay down regulations on proper training, and team building in order to insure civilian safety (similar to what the X-Men have in place), would your opinion change?  I mean at its core the government registry would be aimed at keeping track of them incase one goes rogue and there is the necessity of neutralizing the potential threat.

As I said, under what Marvel has laid out in the SRA I am personally against it, because I am willing to say that certain sacrifices need to be made.  But now that i write that sentence and look at it, it suddenly sounds a whole lot like the removal of public freedoms in the name of terrorist hunting.  We allowed the government to move secretly and violate laws laid in an almost vigilante style in order to ensure safety.
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MatticusPrime

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Re: The Marvel Civil War
« Reply #6 on: 10 Nov 2006, 10:43 »

The problem I have with that is the level of potential corruption associated with it. Let's say that Government Official A wants something done, and looks up the registry to find the most suitable super powered being for the job. GOA can then force the mutant to do the job and keep quiet with the threat of government force behind him. If the mutant says anything, well then he's clearly a mutant terrorist and part of "the enemy" and the government -- who would clearly be acting only with the safety of its citizens in mind -- would swoop in and save the day, so to speak.

The problem with saying things like "excess level of danger" is that there really would be no way to objectively measure the danger any particular mutant poses. Where do we draw the line? Bodily harm? Does a papercut count as the same "level" of danger as a broken bone? What about death? I mean, non-mutants are very capable of causing death but it's not actually a requirement for a person in America to be registered unless he chooses to be (thus far!), and certainly not in the way this registration thing would work.
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Jimmy the Squid

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Re: The Marvel Civil War
« Reply #7 on: 10 Nov 2006, 17:06 »

You can't have a registry for people who were born different! Sure you guys register handguns but I don't think it's really the same thing. To quote the first X-Men movie:
Quote
Jean Grey: I think that's an unfair question, Senator Kelly, afterall the wrong person behind the wheel of a car can be dangerous.
Kelly: Well we do license people to drive.
Jean Grey: yes but not to live.

Also you're making the mistake of assuming that all mutants/super powered people are out to save or destroy the world! What about the people who just want to live their lives like normal people? Should there be a database with their names and addresses too? And how can you guarantee that it would be confidential? Nothing stays a secret forever, and everyone knows that there are people who would take advantage of having the names and addresses of mutants.
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alonelyargonaut

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Re: The Marvel Civil War
« Reply #8 on: 10 Nov 2006, 18:11 »

fair enough. like i said, i remain relatively in the middle on this situation.  because i am a really liberal guy i am more for the rights of the mutants to remain secretive.  now if they are actively vigilantes i can understand the necessity for some form of regulation or control, because suddenly their powers are weapons.

I just like playing devil's advocate because it's sparked the first really intelligent debate i've seen on Civil War (and i totally ghost my way around a few other message boards).  That and being a former Poli-Sci major (and still interested in eventually finding my way into politics, being able to debate intelligently a fictitious issue is really interesting.

Now here's another thought.  We have special schools or classes integrated in public schools for the blind, for the deaf, and for those with mental challenges.  This isn't meant to discriminate.  It's aimed at teaching them techniques of how to become a quality citizen around their disorders/differences.  What if the government were to work with Charles Xavier on an initiative to bring about at least some required learning for mutants?

The thing that worries me is that when a mutants ability manifests itself at adolescense it is usually a very violent manifestation, followed by this overwhelming awe of the fact that they have powers (some to creat flashing lights, others that could level city blocks).  I feel that there would need to be some necessary guidance, maybe not military/combat training, but at least some level of schooling to help them learn to control/curb their powers.

I think the SRA would make more sense if it was aimed at only those who intended to work as vigilantes.  I mean, we're talking people who have made the conscious decision that yes, their powers are weapons, weapons for good, weapons to protect.  Now once that conscious line is crossed (and that is different than a self defense use of powers) there needs to be some form of regulation/training in order to ensure the safety of civilians.  I mean these are basically just barroom brawls with tactical nukes.  I think if they were to work with the Avengers (a policing organization recognized by the UN, and therefore required to follow their stringent policies) or with Charles Xavier and his X-Men there would be a lot stronger of a following behind this sort of legislation.  But when it comes down to what has happened in Civil War, yeah I agree with you guys, the registration act is a bit of an overstep.
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superwill

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Re: The Marvel Civil War
« Reply #9 on: 10 Nov 2006, 19:22 »

I think that they should register if they decide to don a mask and fight crime or if they decide to publically use their powers to help the labor force (such as a superstrong person in construction). However, this registration should be kept confidential to protect the safety of the heroes and their families. It's already been stated that villains would not register, which is a given, but then you have to take into account those who never fight evil. Take Colossus for example: He never had any intentions to fight crime. He was content to use his powers to help his family on their farm. Granted, he did eventually fight crime, but had he never joined the X-Men, then he never would have begun to publically use his powers, and would not need to register should the legislation pass. Of course, the registration should not require the superhuman to join a team of superheroes; many have been doing just fine on their own.

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alonelyargonaut

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Re: The Marvel Civil War
« Reply #10 on: 10 Nov 2006, 19:51 »

i agree entirely with that last comment, my only addendum to that would be the necessity for some sort of educational/job shadow needed for the newbies or for certain heroes.  With great power comes great responsibility, and while many of the heroes have had years of training, having been in and out of super hero teams there is still a necessity for certain levels of training and awareness in order to ensure that public safety remains paramount.  This becomes a concern with many of the more antihero vigilantes like the Punisher.  And I'm not talking straight up lecture classroom because nothing would be learned in that sort of a setting.  That's why I think Charles Xavier's methods to create a team focused around pushing Mutant-Human relations and then to train them as pacifists, but equip them to deal with the threat of metahuman powers is probably one of the more logical steps.
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alonelyargonaut

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Re: The Marvel Civil War
« Reply #11 on: 17 Nov 2006, 21:33 »

has anyone had a chance to pick up and read issue #5 which just came out?

HOLY SHIT!
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TheLanyard

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Re: The Marvel Civil War
« Reply #12 on: 18 Nov 2006, 00:22 »

Sonova.  Now I really want to know what's going on.  I needs $$$!
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Ulmassir

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Re: The Marvel Civil War
« Reply #13 on: 29 Nov 2006, 12:24 »

Firstly, let me say this:

From me, personally, I think it is ridiculous and out of character that Captain America would side against his country. I think Captain America would be leading the fight for the other side...

Anyway, I know my point of view is unpopular, but...

The government was elected by the people. We supposedly have a representative government. If you disagree with a law, fine, but is that enough reason to disobey it? I don't think so. Is it enough reason to start a 'Civil War' over it? Hell no.


Now, do you think Marvel is pushing an agenda? It looks like they are riding the wave of anti-Bush sentiment by drawing exaggerated parallels, whatcha think?

Even -I- remember when comic books were patriotic...
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SeanBateman

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Re: The Marvel Civil War
« Reply #14 on: 02 Dec 2006, 21:25 »

Captain America represents the spirit of the country, not the bullshit agenda put forth by those who only desire control. He is acting perfectly in character, and you, sirrah, clearly do not read many comic books.
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ronin

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Re: The Marvel Civil War
« Reply #15 on: 02 Dec 2006, 22:10 »


The government was elected by the people. We supposedly have a representative government. If you disagree with a law, fine, but is that enough reason to disobey it? I don't think so. Is it enough reason to start a 'Civil War' over it? Hell no.

Technically, the government is meant to be the representative of the people. Where are the mutants being represented?
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Inanimated

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Re: The Marvel Civil War
« Reply #16 on: 15 Jan 2007, 04:09 »

so. issue 6 was pretty much all filler, and 7 has been delayed yet again.

I am confused about the beginning of 6 though. What was going on with all the random greek gods? they said something about hermes I think. Anyone know what's going on?
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patong

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Re: The Marvel Civil War
« Reply #17 on: 15 Jan 2007, 08:01 »

Re: The Greek god thing

I think the government made its own superhero teams to be deployed all over the world.  The team that was featured on the first page was named after Greek gods based on abilities. 

Can't wait to see how the whole thing ends, though previews already give away the fact that Iron Man and Cap wouldn't resolve their issues by Civil War's end, as two Avengers titles are popping up after the whole crossover.

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kokeyjoe

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Re: The Marvel Civil War
« Reply #18 on: 15 Jan 2007, 19:31 »

Can anyone post a link to where I can read some sort of synopsis to what's going on here, i.e. the details of it all with Captain America and Iron Man?  I'm on a huge Avengers kick lately, and this sounds pretty interesting.  I'd even like to jump in on the discussion here, but I know jack squat about this story arc.  I don't really read the comics much anymore.  Thanks!
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Inanimated

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Re: The Marvel Civil War
« Reply #19 on: 15 Jan 2007, 20:12 »

you may have to dig around a bit, but wizard http://www.wizarduniverse.com/magazine/wizard/003007083.cfm has a week by week summary of the whole event.

also, on the greek gods: I understood that they were to be a new team under iron-man's plan, I was more confused on where they came from. Have they been shown before?
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patong

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Re: The Marvel Civil War
« Reply #20 on: 15 Jan 2007, 21:28 »

Am not sure about the Greek gods. Maybe they have, but I don't exactly remember.  It's either that or they intentionally showed new people to show how the government is taking matters into their own hands (and those of Hank Pym, Reed Richards and Tony Stark) without too much reliance on the existing heroes, especially those who've gone against the registration act.

That's my opinion, though. I'm no Brian Bendis.  :-D
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kokeyjoe

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Re: The Marvel Civil War
« Reply #21 on: 16 Jan 2007, 19:56 »

you may have to dig around a bit, but wizard http://www.wizarduniverse.com/magazine/wizard/003007083.cfm has a week by week summary of the whole event.

Thanks for pointing that out, Megatron!
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ElRodente

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Re: The Marvel Civil War
« Reply #22 on: 18 Jan 2007, 04:03 »

i have to say, i am getting increasingly bored with CW
while 52 is looking better and better... sorry marvel :( i still love you

but yeah, has anyone read frontline 10? NOTHING HAPPENS IN THAT BOOK, and the delays are a bit offputting too
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alonelyargonaut

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Re: The Marvel Civil War
« Reply #23 on: 26 Jan 2007, 07:01 »

Yeah in retrospect civil war wasn't so much of a civil war.  it's like a civil battle, or maybe a civil dispute.  There is far too much building up to this one epic battle, and not enough actual war going on.  I was hoping that things would get really dirty, cities would get leveled, battles would be fought, and magneto would sit in genosha going "i told you so..."

52 was smart because it gave itself a year, and guaranteed an interesting story that would have many parts, one a week.  Civil War on the other hand relied too heavily on its central series for some plot, and then squandered all the interesting power of the other issues...  but it was still interesting, and i'm glad i own it.
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Pegasus King

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Re: The Marvel Civil War
« Reply #24 on: 04 Mar 2007, 22:15 »

Civil War was an exceptional concept that was executed badly.

And this comes from a comic book fan of several years who's never really had a problem with the books he's read.

I read a couple of the tie-ins, but because of budget constraints I only stuck to books I was already pulling. The sad part for me was that I found the main title to simply be 22 pages of previews for other titles coupled with beautiful art by Steve McNiven.

I'm a big fan of Millar's Ultimates books, but anyone who says Millar went above and beyond the call of duty to make this book stand out from the crowd except for a couple shock value moments (which were more edtiorial than his idea alone) really needs to read some of his other stuff and realize how subpar this was for him.

The main title lacked very little substance to make it entertaining beyond just pretty panels.

If I had to choose a side, I'd go pro-reg, but at the same time they didn't give me much belief in the direction they wanted to take the superhuman community until by #7, all the bad things the pro-reg did were given subtle glory and now I'm excited to see where it leads the future of the MU.

But as an event as a whole, I considered it very underwhelming.

Hopefully the Hulk smashes some shit up.
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Re: The Marvel Civil War
« Reply #25 on: 04 Mar 2007, 23:31 »

the best part of Civil War to me?  that fact that now there wil be two Avengers comics, the New Avengers and the Mighty Avengers.

oh, and Spider-man is back in black
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doki

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Re: The Marvel Civil War
« Reply #26 on: 04 Mar 2007, 23:36 »

this is how the marvel, and in fact most comicbook, universes work.  its simple really.  the people hate the heroes when they are smashing their shit, but when they get mugged and spidey swings in, they fucking worship him.

the handgun registration thing is not a fair comparison.  handguns are objects that can be put in a draw and forgotten about.  Mutants and heroes are living breathing....mostly humans that have on countless occasions saved the lives of everyone on earth.  besides, no jail could safely hold cyclops unless it was made of ruby quartz, and i dunno about you, but thats one tax hike i wouldnt like to see
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Pegasus King

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Re: The Marvel Civil War
« Reply #27 on: 05 Mar 2007, 00:18 »

SPOILERS







Now I understand why they killed Annihilus at the end of the Annihilation cosmic event.

They built a prison in the Negative Zone, where Annihilus lives and rules. If he came back after destroying our universe and found out we were setting up shop there well....

END SPOILERS


that's a story that would have kicked ass, but we'll never get.
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alonelyargonaut

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Re: The Marvel Civil War
« Reply #28 on: 12 Apr 2007, 10:15 »

If you want a really interesting exploration in terms of the love/hate relationship with heroes, you should take a gander at Earth X.  They have some really interesting examinations into the thought processes on heroes, on why we need them, how we make them, and then how we tear them down because their power sheds light on our shame.

Oh and, HI I'M BACK!
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alonelyargonaut

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Re: The Marvel Civil War
« Reply #29 on: 12 Apr 2007, 10:35 »

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beat mouse

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Re: The Marvel Civil War
« Reply #30 on: 24 May 2007, 13:43 »

I'm personally anti-registration, though not on the same grounds as Captain America. I'm simply just opposed to the government running their superheroes and the 50 states initiative is just bad news bears. Like Cable had mentioned, this all leads to the hell future he had come from (though Cable doesnt really "get" time travel, obviously it happened if he came back in time) which police states with cop heroes and sentinels is not a place I'd want to live. I downloaded 110 issues of civil war and civil war tie-ins, and i definately agree in the poor execution of the story, given the alloted issues. While most of them weren't necessary (see: all x-men civil war) a lot of them (spiderman, captain america, frontlines) gave a lot of really great insight and filled in the blanks and motives of what was going on while shedding some real light on potential future events. Wolverine's storyline (even though gugenheimer is the worst writer EVER) about his trip to atlantis gave a little more info on Namor's turn of events, as did one of the frontlines story arcs. Marvel Frontlines 1-10 is probably a stronger series than Civil War 1-7, though without eachother obviously it's incomplete. Frontlines gives us the only perspective we can relate to: the uninvolved masses.

Anyways, I LOVED civil war having all of the information available to me, and the events of Captain America 22-25 are the most tragic thing to ever happen to the country, my only only ONLY wish for things to come is that frank castle pick up the shield and go after redemption in a badass hail of gunfire and justice. speaking of which, has the shield been found yet?
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alongwaltz

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Re: The Marvel Civil War
« Reply #31 on: 24 May 2007, 19:31 »

has the shield been found yet?

Iron Man gave the shield and costume to Clint Barton in the hopes that he would take on the guise of Captain America.

When, two minutes later, Iron Man wanted him to help beat up and arrest the Young Avengers, Barton basically told him to go f himself, let them go, and walked off.  (Only to meet up with the Secret Avengers and take on the guise of Ronin.)

So I think Stark still has it.  Maybe Bucky'll get it back.
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Blue Kitty

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Re: The Marvel Civil War
« Reply #32 on: 24 May 2007, 20:02 »

I heard they are going to pull a superman with the new captain americas
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beat mouse

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Re: The Marvel Civil War
« Reply #33 on: 24 May 2007, 22:10 »

well, its only a matter of time before steve rogers is back, but i'd rather not see bucky take it up, it would be pretty out of character, i think. not to say frank castle is a weird candidate but with his past relationship of respect for captain america i could see them writing an excellent story line. maybe a mini-series if anything, but man would that be amazing. wishful thinking anyways, writers do their thing :(
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Blue Kitty

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Re: The Marvel Civil War
« Reply #34 on: 24 May 2007, 23:52 »

well actually what I meant with saying they are going to pull a Superman is that they are going to be making 4 different versions.  There is the ultra violent one, ie Castle,  the tolken black one, a robot one (word is that Tony is making one), and then the younger one, but this is all rumor and speculation on the part of my local comic shop owner and I.
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beat mouse

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Re: The Marvel Civil War
« Reply #35 on: 25 May 2007, 02:36 »

oh ok. I dont know anything about Superman/most dc for that matter. That'd make for an interesting side-arc but I don't see them filling the next year or two with that before I'm sure an inevitable return of rogers.
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Re: The Marvel Civil War
« Reply #36 on: 25 May 2007, 06:10 »

They've already done that idea to an extent. Punisher already started trying to homage Cap (It's just that, he's not trying to be a replacement, he's wearing a similar costume in honor of Cap) and there's been a black variation on Cap for a couple years now (Patriot, the grandson of the original super soldier). Stark (Who currently has the shield) tried to recruit former Hawkeye, Clint Barton, to be the new Cap, but Hawkeye turned him down saying Rogers WAS Cap.

I doubt there'll be a total four like Reign of the Supermen. Give Marvel a bit more credit. I get the feeling there'll be two: Stark is allegedly trying to recreate the super soldier formula and will probably use that in making a new Cap and I figure the Winter Soldier (Bucky Barnes), will take on the persona for a while in opposition (He wants Stark dead).
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Johnny C

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Re: The Marvel Civil War
« Reply #37 on: 27 May 2007, 10:49 »

Haven't these guys read Watchmen? Or the DC series Identity Crisis? Or any of the other expertly-handled series which justify continued superhero anonymity?

I've talked Civil War over with a couple of friends and they agree that the setup was cool but the resolution ludicrous.
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Re: The Marvel Civil War
« Reply #38 on: 28 May 2007, 16:53 »

The thing most people fail to understand about the SRA is that you don't have to publicly unmask and it's actually discouraged by the folks in charge of the Initiative. Look more into the idea of The Incredibles. Identities weren't public, but they were held accountable for their actions. That's what the SRA and Initiative are about, accountability and having legitimately trained heroes as opposed to uncontrollable vigilantes.
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weenus

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Re: The Marvel Civil War
« Reply #39 on: 30 May 2007, 15:31 »

Anyone have any news on the first major post civil war storyline? Apparently a handful of major X-men are going to die, permanently (atleast, more permanently than Hawkeye). I'm pretty sure its going to be initiated by Gambit and Sunfire being aligned with Sinister. However, its going to be a major X-Men title changing storyline, Marvel is saying.
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weenus

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Re: The Marvel Civil War
« Reply #40 on: 30 May 2007, 15:40 »



Preview pic from IGN.
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Blue Kitty

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Re: The Marvel Civil War
« Reply #41 on: 30 May 2007, 18:56 »

I do believe it is going to be called Endangered Species and I think it starts with X-men #200
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Johnny C

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Re: The Marvel Civil War
« Reply #42 on: 31 May 2007, 02:15 »

Identities weren't public, but they were held accountable for their actions. That's what the SRA and Initiative are about, accountability and having legitimately trained heroes as opposed to uncontrollable vigilantes.
Okay but government involvement in superheroism is a postively terrible idea. Government oversight and restriction winds up exacerbating the events of The Incredibles, and in Watchmen the results of government-aligned superheroes are positively terrifying.

The entire idea of superheroes are that they operate outside of governmental moral values. Now they're operating within those boundaries. They're accountable for what and to whom? At the outset they'd be accountable, respectively, to the public and for their actions but surely this would not remain static - at least, not if Marvel wants the idea to even be remotely convincing in a few years.

Don't get me started on how much the idea of a "legitimately trained hero" pretty much ruins a good chunk of the everyman appeal of many a superhero.
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Re: The Marvel Civil War
« Reply #43 on: 31 May 2007, 05:57 »

Think of it this way: the SRA is the best possible way of changing the status quo without having to change the status quo.

You're still going to have your "everyman" vigilantes, and technically that was always illegal. The stakes have been upped and new storyline possibilities have been added now, though. Spider-Man's technical status quo has only changed in the unmasking. In essence, they reverted a good part of his status. I find his life's been way too cushy for way too long. I like having him back to being shot at regularly by the cops, adds a different dimension.

Pretty much everyone else maintained their status quos, as well. The Avengers have been a government funded and run team for decades, the Fantastic Four have been public since around their debut and the X-Men are off doing their own thing as per usual. While everything's changed, nothing's changed. But now we've got an underground team of Avengers that is on the run from the government as far as fighting the bad guys, Tony Stark in charge of SHIELD has been one of the more fascinating ideas in a long while and the death of Captain America has been well played on all sides.

Where DC absolutely fucked themselves with Infinite Crisis, Marvel accomplished their goal with Civil War. Both were set out with taking the company in a new direction. IC did that, but it did a good job of alienating many a fan by making a damn near unrecognizable product (I'd been sucked into DC after years of being a Marvel zombie, but couldn't be bothered after the underwhelming Infinite Crisis and One Year Later fallout). I've heard a lot of people who found that Civil War proper ended with a thud, but the Initiative's potential and payoff has been great. Everything's lined up in a way where the reader feels a new experience without it being a complete 180 from where it was.

Comics are, first and foremost, a business and Marvel really knocked one out of the park business-wise with Civil War. Storywise is up for debate, though I greatly enjoyed it.
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Re: The Marvel Civil War
« Reply #44 on: 01 Jun 2007, 20:05 »

I say no! Superheroes in comics really just do what the goverment refuses to do. "Oh no, we won't save the world from some terrorist/cool evil guy" "Here comes [superhero or mutant name here] to save the day."

They then are pretty much hated by the government for not being lazy! Plus there's no way in hell the Runnaways could be signed up. They're kids for [insert religious figure here]'s sake!

Edit:

Plus there's the part where the government would just plain ruin it for the people. "I'm gonna go fight that guy before he kills x amount of people." "Nah, it's just too risky, go back to bed." "GOD DAMN IT!"
« Last Edit: 01 Jun 2007, 20:07 by Gimme a Dollar »
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Re: The Marvel Civil War
« Reply #45 on: 01 Jun 2007, 21:42 »

Where DC absolutely fucked themselves with Infinite Crisis, Marvel accomplished their goal with Civil War

I don't really know about that.  I felt that Infinite Crisis was far superior to Civl War in every way, and I have been a long time Marvel fan harking back to when I first picked up my dad's old Lee and Ditko comic books, much to his dismay of trying to keep them in mint condition.

Where as Marvel, as is usual with Marvel, was trying to reinvent themselves, I felt that DC was staying exactly the same.  Instead of reinventing themselves they pulled the big three, who had grown apart over the course of the year do to their various actions, ie Batman with his Brother Eye and Wonder Woman's murder of Maxwell Lord, back together to face a threat on a universal scale, and rallying other heroes to join them.  The only thing that I found wrong with it was that they seemed to want to bring back the multiverse that they got rid of in Crisis on Infinite Earths, though has been around for a long time any way.

I can honestly say that I did enjoy the ending of Civil War with the death of Captain America, a character that has always seemed so invincible even though they constantly point out he is just a regular guy, but the story of militarizing super heroes felt rushed and incomplete, and even though I did enjoy the ending I think that the only reason they did it is so that they could draw attention back to themselves and away from the fact that the whole thing was poorly done.
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Re: The Marvel Civil War
« Reply #46 on: 02 Jun 2007, 02:42 »

I dunno, I just feel that thematically it was a wasted opportunity, you know? The theme doesn't jive well with me.

Comics may be first and foremost a business but that business is often best conducted under the guise of intelligent and legitimate artistic pursuit. If you make a good comic, it'll sell. That, rather than reinvention, should be a company's primary concern.
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Re: The Marvel Civil War
« Reply #47 on: 18 Jun 2007, 04:25 »

i think mostly, reinvention is the major force behind creating new and most of all interesting comics, tony stark may come out of this looking like a dick, but he's an interesting dick, a well written dick.
You also have to remember that the new status quo is not government controlled superheroes, it's registered yes, but what stark did was take the control out of the hands of the government, and put it into the hands of someone he could trust and knew cared about the other heroes, himself.

some writers have been pretty shitty with stark thouh

overall, i liked civil war, even if some of the minor stories were shit (frontline, i'm looking at you) and thematically, it was a decent progression in the marvel universe, with many many storylines to pursue.


that said, 52 was awesome too (though countdown is a bit mishmash now)
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Re: The Marvel Civil War
« Reply #48 on: 18 Jun 2007, 06:05 »

Actually, it's looking like there might be a more in-depth method to Stark's actions. Aside from World War Hulk (Which had a phenomenal first issue that would please any of the Iron Man haters out there), the latest issue of New Avengers ended with Elektra being stabbed to death and being revealed to be a Skrull. It's unclear when she was replaced or where the real Elektra is, but it's apparently something Bendis has been sowing the seeds for for almost three years (I looked back and actually found a lot of the hints, so I'm inclined to believe he's not full of shit). He's saying that he's not going to use this to make it like Civil War was manipulated into being (I.E. Stark is not a Skrull. The Skrulls might have pushed a vague bit, but it was a matter of the humans fucking themselves in the midst of an infiltration).

The potential of all this excites me.
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Re: The Marvel Civil War
« Reply #49 on: 18 Jun 2007, 20:46 »

DUDE, YOU SHOULD PUT A SPOILER ALERT!!!

I think with Stark's actions, as are the New Avengers being lead by Cage, is that he is still trying to find out the big mystery that was going on in the pages of New Avengers before the whole Civil War happened, doing methodically and by the books where as Cage and the Avengers are out busting heads and taking names

still, Marvel was right when they said that the last page would be one of the biggest surprises of 2007.  hell, even I did not see it coming
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