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[MadassAlex]

Blind Guardian aren't even the best ridiculous power metal band with Tolkien themed lyrics.

(Wuthering Heights)

Blind Guardian have Tolkien themed lyrics scattered about, but their music deals with so much more and they tend to fall under an undeserved umbrella of Tolkien-whoring, that while they're happy to belong to doesn't mean they actually occupy such a space.

[NiMRoD420]

I don't care for Blind Guardian, for the most part. I just don't ;P

Actually I really don't care for most power metal at all. Symphony X is probably my favorite, if you count them as power metal.

[kokeyjoe]

Best thing ever at a concert though is when you get a line of like, 8 total strangers or whatever, and you all just link arms over each others shoulders and headbang in unison.

That's how I spent part of my New Year's Eve, and it was fucking awesome.  I hadn't head-banged (head-bung?... hehe) like that in yeeeears.

[MadassAlex]

I don't care for Blind Guardian, for the most part. I just don't ;P

Actually I really don't care for most power metal at all. Symphony X is probably my favorite, if you count them as power metal.

I've heard some places call them Prog Metal, though. Symphony X, that is. Odd.

[NiMRoD420]

Yeah, most people would just call them prog metal. I mean, I would. But the line between prog metal and power metal can be a pretty thin one.

[Misereatur]

To be honest, I see why you'd ban moshing in the states. I hardly mosh in the UK any more because of the retarded American hardcore attitude that's been imported along with all the shit new deathcore music. I can't rely anymore that people are going to pick me up if I go down, or surf me out if it gets too much for me, I can't rely people aren't deliberately going to try and break my nose, I can't rely that no one is going to be wearing aggressive jewellery. I don't want to see the stage where I also can't rely on people not having straight razors sewn blade-side out in to their jackets or a length of chain in one hand. Bring back the headbang, bring back the mosh, as some bands have thankfully started saying. It's got totally ridiculous when I can go to see a band like Kingsize Blues supporting Crowbar at the Wedgewood Rooms and I can be the only person headbanging. Moshing, however, isn't violence. Not how it was being done in the UK when I started, not how its still being done in Europe. It can be brutal, but it should never be dangerous. Some of the best times of my life have been in Mosh Pits, or crowd surfing. Best thing ever at a concert though is when you get a line of like, 8 total strangers or whatever, and you all just link arms over each others shoulders and headbang in unison.

In fact, I just wrote a huge rant about this on my blog.

I used to go to a lot of metal shows about two years ago. I dont know what it's like today, but whenever there was a mosh (and there allways was a mosh) people respected a few "unwritten rules":

- No punching.
- No kicking.
- If someone falls down, pick him up.
- If you see a girl in the mosh, take it easy.
- No pushing people into the mosh.

I allways liked that.
Two years ago, there was a concert by a few local metal bands down town. After one show I was talking to a guy I knew when a friend of mine approachs the guy I talking to and says "Dude, I'm sorry I kicked you really hard in that mosh, are you ok?". I dont think that I'll see those kind of thigs next metal concert I'll attend.

Also, in Orphaned Land shows (I almost never miss those) that mosh is actually 300 metalheads jumping together in one big group hug. Hilariously awsome.

[NiMRoD420]

- No punching.
- No kicking.- If someone falls down, pick him up.
- If you see a girl in the mosh, take it easy.
- No pushing people into the mosh.

There... that's the only rule I see being respected around here. Even then, some of the drunkards are too inebriated to care. Headbanging and throwing up the motherfucking horns are the things I like to see. For most people (with a few genuine exceptions), these fucking 'circle pits' are just an excuse to be violent. Nothing more nothing less.

[CutMan]

Yeah, most people would just call them prog metal. I mean, I would. But the line between prog metal and power metal can be a pretty thin one.

I'd say they're definjitely some sort of prog now, they've moved WAY too far away from power metal. I can't emphesize how much they rock. All eras of them.

Also, they haven't had any Tolkein themed lyrics in.... Two albums? Yeah.

[Will]

This is going to be one of those old-timer "back in my day" type stories, but oh well...several years ago, I remember taking my sister to see Zao at Cornerstone.  It was her first metal show ever, and she wanted to go "moshing."  All was well until some douchenozzle almost hit her in the face.  As any good older brother would do, I set out to put a beatin' on the chump, but before I could, he was swallowed up by a handful of other dudes who *ahem* politely informed him that his actions were unacceptable, and respectfully requested that he leave the tent.  I remember when those unwritten rules were respected by people at shows.  Flash forward to the last Converge show I went to, where it seemed like just a bunch of jocks who wanted to hurt as many people as they could.  I never much cared for 'getting in the pit' myself, just because I'd rather watch the band that I paid money to see, but I can remember when their used to be some roguish sense of honor and nobility present...no more, no more...

[NiMRoD420]

I saw a girl get her jaw broken at a Zao show in 2003. Karate moshing fucktard wearing combat boots.

[ScrambledGregs]

I used to go to a lot of metal shows about two years ago. I dont know what it's like today, but whenever there was a mosh (and there allways was a mosh) people respected a few "unwritten rules":

- Push girls into a mosh pit, keep pushing them until they fall down, then kick and punch them

Fixed it for you.

[Hat]

You people have retarded metal shows. I've never even seen a real moshpit at a metal show here. At the very most, everyone is headbanging and there is a bit of pressure pushing forwards for the bigger bands. Even the slightest attempt to do anything violent will result in whoever it is thrown over to the side by everyone else.

[David_Dovey]

Yeah, Australia, insofar as I can tell, tends to keep the hardcore dancing at hardcore shows. The best moshpits I've been in involve two rows of folks at the front headbanging and then a lot of jumping and a bit of pushing and just generally a shit load of movement behind that. I went to a Killswitch Engage show last year and it had both, which was awesome I think. Also, everybody in the circle (which I was in for Unearth, who did support) was very respectful and actually made sure they weren't hitting people. This was cos it was composed of mostly of older hardcore guys who'd been in the scene for years, as opposed to 15 year olds who don't have a fucking clue.

[Johnny C]

Flash forward to the last Converge show I went to, where it seemed like just a bunch of jocks who wanted to hurt as many people as they could.

If I remember right this exact thing started happening at Nirvana shows after the release of Nevermind and Kurt was not impressed.

[Dimmukane]

yeah, now the whole thing's gone down over here.  unless you're at a death metal show only, you're gonna find the flippy high school kids doing moves like the penny-picker, the wheelbarrow, look-my-arm-is-a-morning-star, ape-in-man-clothes-with-a-trucker-hat, etc.  I was lucky enough to go to a show in which Anthrax finished, so all the flailers who were there for Manntis and Sworn Enemy said "this shit is old and gay" and left, so everyone started doing it the old-fashioned way.  even the forty-year olds passing out free beer to the kiddies who stayed for the entire thing were stopping to show the horns.

[KharBevNor]

To be honest, it's one of the many reasons that, at the end of the day, it's probably actually a good thing that metal isn't that popular, and it'll probably be better when it's less popular again. Moshpits in the eighties could be fucking evil. It's the same thing. That wider demographic appeal obviously nets more idiots.

@Mis: Those are pretty much the rules of the mosh as they were handed down to me by my metal forefathers. I wouldn't be surprised if they were still upheld in Isreal, from what I can tell, based on Isreali bands and what bands seem to have big fanbases down there, the scene in Isreal is massively European. Twattish hardcore shit comes from the states. Its a basic dichotomy in the way being a fan of a band and music and whatnot is viewed. In the European metal scene, traditionally, being a fan of a band is something that unites people. Thus, when there's moshing, it doesn't go beyond that level. I've been in some hefty pits at places like Wacken, and it has been pretty brutal, but never dangerous. I know that, basically, the crowd is all together in this, that I can count on being picked up or hauled out if shit happens. From what I've always seen of the hardcore scene and its offshoots, and this is only a casual observation, is there seems to be much more of an element of competition, as in 'who is the biggest fan', or 'who is the most scene' or whatever which seems to fuel disunity in the crowd, along with all that thing with crews and whatnot of course, which thankfully (most) of Europe doesn't have. In European metal the only place I've really seen that is on the internet: when metalheads actually meet in real life, it's much more about similiarities than differences.

Also, oh man, throwing the horns. I think my little quirk if I was the dictator of the world would be having people who throw weak horns or stick their thumbs out basically just shot in the face.



FINGERS RIGID THUMB ACROSS BOTTOM OF MIDDLE FINGERS. It ain't hard. Half the time I can't tell if people are throwing the horns or suffering from crippling nerve injuries in their hands.

[Hat]

Dear Khar,

I have trouble throwing the horns sometimes. Occasionally my thumb slips up my middle finger. I sometimes get spasms of pain when trying to keep the index and pinkie fingers out at a sufficient angle. My middle two fingers sometimes are not able to be held together properly.

Do you have a list of exercise for training the hand to be thrown into the horns correctly? How do you correct sloppy technique when the only appropriate times to throw the horns are when I am drunk out of my skull? What is your training reigime for keeping your ability to throw the horns in good shape?

And what genres of music are NOT appropriate to throw the horns for? Is bluesy rock and roll with bitchin guitar solos and bass shred appropriate? Thank you for your help in tihs delicate matter.

Love, Brett.

[Storm Rider]

I actually frequently hold my thumbs diagonally across the middle fingers. That's just how my fingers naturally hold the position.

[MadassAlex]

I'm not Khar, obviously, but I am happy to answer your questions regarding the implementation of The Horns.

Dear Khar,

I have trouble throwing the horns sometimes. Occasionally my thumb slips up my middle finger. I sometimes get spasms of pain when trying to keep the index and pinkie fingers out at a sufficient angle. My middle two fingers sometimes are not able to be held together properly.

Do you have a list of exercise for training the hand to be thrown into the horns correctly? How do you correct sloppy technique when the only appropriate times to throw the horns are when I am drunk out of my skull? What is your training reigime for keeping your ability to throw the horns in good shape?

Trying to use your index and pinky fingers more often is a great help, as is using your thumb to grip the other fingers and hold them in place. If nothing else works, try shrowing Spiderman's hand gesture, which is basically the horns upside down, thrown forward. Then just change the position!

And what genres of music are NOT appropriate to throw the horns for? Is bluesy rock and roll with bitchin guitar solos and bass shred appropriate? Thank you for your help in tihs delicate matter.

Love, Brett.

Throw The Horns for anything and everything.

*takes a bow*

[Hat]

Actually, Spidey webs with his thumb out, in the hippy/pagan sign for love.

I'm sorry, but I can't believe you are an authority on throwing the horns if you do not know this.

[MadassAlex]

I'm certainly not an authority on Spiderman, you mean.

[KharBevNor]

hippy/pagan sign for love.

Hippy/pagan nowt, it's international sign language. It's about as new age as Alpha Bravo Charlie Delta Echo Foxtrot.

When did I impugn there might be wrong genres? Obviously anything that rocks. I've thrown the horns to industrial a good few times before. When you're using the horn at a concert though, what it literally is is respect for the band. You are saying to the band that they rock, and the band, when they do it back, are saying that YOU rock. You should throw the horns when the band is especially rocking, so solos, awesome lyrics and vocal thingies, kick-ass set-pieces and whatnot. You should always throw the horns back when someone in the band throws the horns, especially if they do it in your direction (or even AT you: that is the ultimate thing). But it is pretty much acceptable to throw the horns any time something is rocking. Genre ain't got nothing to do with it, as long as there's something rocking happening. I've throw the horns at industrial on more than one occasion.

Also, when you bounce your hand in time to the music keeping the arm rigid and just using the wrist: that is piss-weak nu-metal shit. Don't do that. If you are going to do anything like that then the whole arm at least should be moving, if not your whole body, and you should definitely be headbanging.

[Hat]

When did I impugn there might be wrong genres?

I was actually referring to this hilarious The Onion article about misuse of the metal sign

I don't take the whole thing as seriously as I am pretending to, but I must admit, I get a real tingly feeling when a really awesome guitarist throws the horns on the way on the way to start tapping over the top of the fretboard or something.

Plus I just seize on any opportunity I can get to type out the word "bass shred"

[Will]

Pat Robertson obviously throws the horns better than anyone.  Look at my avatar!

[NiMRoD420]

hippy/pagan sign for love.

Hippy/pagan nowt, it's international sign language. It's about as new age as Alpha Bravo Charlie Delta Echo Foxtrot.

When did I impugn there might be wrong genres? Obviously anything that rocks. I've thrown the horns to industrial a good few times before. When you're using the horn at a concert though, what it literally is is respect for the band. You are saying to the band that they rock, and the band, when they do it back, are saying that YOU rock. You should throw the horns when the band is especially rocking, so solos, awesome lyrics and vocal thingies, kick-ass set-pieces and whatnot. You should always throw the horns back when someone in the band throws the horns, especially if they do it in your direction (or even AT you: that is the ultimate thing). But it is pretty much acceptable to throw the horns any time something is rocking. Genre ain't got nothing to do with it, as long as there's something rocking happening. I've throw the horns at industrial on more than one occasion.

Also, when you bounce your hand in time to the music keeping the arm rigid and just using the wrist: that is piss-weak nu-metal shit. Don't do that. If you are going to do anything like that then the whole arm at least should be moving, if not your whole body, and you should definitely be headbanging.

Indeed. I don't want to see any of that wrist-driven rocking going on. That is piss-weak, though I would not necessarily associate it specifically with nu-metal. It's just piss weak.

[KharBevNor]

This hand symbol is also said to be the opposite of Satanism, but rather a trick that God pulled on Satan, that whenever a human makes the hand gesture, a telephone will ring in Satan's bedroom, but there will be no one on the other line. In fact, God makes the corna symbol every morning at 2:30 just to piss Satan off.

Isn't that a Wigu strip?

@Nimrod: It is so nu-metal. It is basically saying that you are rollin' rollin' rollin'.

[NiMRoD420]

Admittedly, I would associate it with Fred Durst, but that's just because he's a limp wristed cum catcher. Nothing to do with the song. *shuddering*

Why would you make me think of it? WHY?!

[KharBevNor]

ROLLIN' ROLLIN' ROLLIN'

[Storm Rider]

It's kind of funny, because when we were having the discussion about the worst band in the world a while back I decided to look up the Rollin' video on YouTube to see if it was as terrible as I remembered.

It was worse.

[Johnny C]

I think my little quirk if I was the dictator of the world would be having people who throw weak horns or stick their thumbs out basically just shot in the face.

The corna is not to be confused as the sign for "I love you" in American Sign Language, which is made by also extending the thumb

So you propose shooting the deaf, then?


Somewhere on that Wikipedia article is a link to the Los Angeles City Beat website, apparently. I just wound up there. They have an interesting article about metal's use of outlaw mystique. It's a fascinating read.

[KharBevNor]

I hope you use the words 'fascinating read' sarcastically, because that article is heavily biased and ridiculously under-researched. It also doesn't actually say anything. Another one of the many filler articles about heavy metal written by people off of 30 minutes of research on the internet and some hear-say. Seriously incoherent garbage. Then again, a lot of the stuff written about heavy metal is.

[Johnny C]

Some of us find failure fascinating.

[CutMan]

http://www.defenderofrock.com/news/dio.html

'nuff said.

[Hat]

Did they just call Kiss heavy metal?

Guys, I think they called Kiss heavy metal.

Seriously. What?

[CutMan]

XP True, that's even worse than calling AC/DC heavy metal.

[Jackie Blue]

It's kind of funny, because when we were having the discussion about the worst band in the world a while back I decided to look up the Rollin' video on YouTube to see if it was as terrible as I remembered.

It was worse.

Holy Christ, you're right.  Watching that actually makes Vanilla Ice look good.  My lord.

I remember a couple-few years ago, Fred Durst had a Xanga, and he kept using it to convince people he wasn't the monumental idiot he so obviously is.  He'd put a Sonic Youth album as his "now playing" and talk about Nietzsche.  No joke.  And it really was him - when people questioned whether it was really Fred, the official Limp Bizkit site confirmed that it was.

[ScrambledGregs]

Guys, if you would just stop talking about Fred Durst he would disappear. Acknowledging his existence gives him strength. If everyone agreed to forget about Limp Bizkit and Fred Durst, we could all....OH GOD I JUST STARTED TO SEE THE VIDEO FOR 'NOOKIE' IN MY HEAD MAKE IT STOOOOPPPPPP

[NiMRoD420]

I am with Khar about that LA Beat article. The guy dipped into the top 10 percent of metal culture and spewed that slop right back out.

He makes a good observation about all the genres and subdivisions, in that yes, there are a lot of them, but I fail to see where that's a negative thing, as he makes it out to be. Fuck that guy, right in his eye socket.