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Author Topic: Production  (Read 8558 times)

Scytale

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Production
« on: 19 Feb 2007, 02:24 »

So I thought this might be an interesting topic, I listen to a lot of black metal and quite frankly most albums are produced quite atrociously, the truth is I don't really notice it, in fact a lot of the time the shitty sound actually makes the music sound a lot better, you probably think I'm bonkers but anyway it makes a lot of sense to me, Darkthrone are a case in point absolutely great band, always (deliberately) have a horrible sound, it works.

On the other end of the spectrum, there's also a lot of bands out there that are over-produced to all hell and I especially can't stand this, my one big gripe is over-triggered drums, i have no trouble with drum triggers when used properly but it seems they almost never are.

So anyway I thought I throw it out there, can anyone think of some really good (andreally badly) produced albums.
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McTaggart

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Re: Production
« Reply #1 on: 19 Feb 2007, 04:14 »

The two albums that I think gain the most from their production (or lack of) are All Hail West Texas by the Mountain Goats and whatever the hell Jasmine Loop Control's most recent (only?) album is called.

The first is recorded on a single mic on a noisey 8-track. It's stories about people, sung over guitar and bass. It's simple and true, and it works really well.

The second is etherial post-rock with strings and bells and sounds like it was played in a cold room, but recorded from outside it.
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Caspian

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Re: Production
« Reply #2 on: 19 Feb 2007, 04:47 »

I produce a lot of bands myself (just local stuff) so it's something I'm fairly passionate about.

For me, the top albums for production is probably Jesu's S/t, just in terms of how damn huge and unique everything sounds. The guitars are so heavy! I also love Sigur Ros's Brackets album, just because it's so lush and warm. In terms of commercial production, I really like Metallica's Load production. THe vocals are real layered and thick, the guitars are really round and warm, and the drums are incredibly fat. One final band I would add would be Boards of Canada, just because their synths are awesome and the drums sound so freaking good.. There's probably a huge amount of other bands I could add, but I'll try to resist..

In terms of terrible production that works well, I would go with Bathory's Under the Sign of the Black Mark, but Ulver's Nattrens Madrical defintely wins. Sure, a bit of bottom end would help, but it makes the atmosphere so huge and awesome. The vocals are awesome too. Just a generally awesome album.

In terms of way overproduced production, I would of course nominate Metallica's Black Album. Way too produced. I'd also add Isis's Panopticon and EITS's Earth is not a Cold Place. Both are amazing albums (Panopticon's probably in my top 5), it's just that the production is so cold and lifeless.

In terms of bad production sounding really bad, I would go with anything by Vlad Tepes (Sure you don't expect crystal clear production, but there's nothing wrong with being able to hear things clearly) and I'd probably chuck in Boris's Vein, because it's all way too distorted, and possibly their Pink album, which isn't too bad but could use a lot less tape distortion on it.

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The Kangmiester

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Re: Production
« Reply #3 on: 19 Feb 2007, 05:26 »

Dark Side of the Moon is widely considered to be the best album ever produced. Dam, I'm gonna listen to it again on vinyll now. mmm crackles of vinyll. dribble.
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Will

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Re: Production
« Reply #4 on: 19 Feb 2007, 07:09 »

Kurt Ballou from Converge does some of my favorite production work...I am a big fan of the live-in-the-studio sound, and Ballou does it as good as anyone.  He manages to add a feeling of raw anger to most of what he records as well.  I really love the kind of "low budget" sounds on a lot of Pg.99's recordings, Majority Rule, and some of the other early punk/hardcore/screamo type bands.  Also, anything Albini has his hands on is probably a win.

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Thrillho

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Re: Production
« Reply #5 on: 19 Feb 2007, 07:29 »

The worst production and mixing I've ever heard is on the CD version of Pink Floyd's Piper At The Gates Of Dawn. It absolutely hilarious. Listen to it on headphones. Most of the songs - 'Lucifer Sam' and 'Matilda Mother' come to mind - have pretty much no left side for about half of their length.

I hate the production on Time Out Of Mind by Bob Dylan, and most of Daniel Lanois' work in general. Dylan's songs are fantastic on that record, and 'Love Sick' is one of his best tunes. It's sparse and murky, and it works. But the novelty of an effect on his voice wears off VERY fast and it smothers the songs.

As for my favourite productions, I have a few. Whilst a lot of the rapping on it is actually pretty bad, Dr. Dre's 2001 album has some of the finest production I've heard on a rap record. It's slick, it's shiny, it's textured and detailed but not cluttered. Fabulous stuff. The strings and massive beat on 'The Next Episode' are absolutely great.

I love the production on Powder Burns by the Twilight Singers because it's absolutely kitchen sink, really lush and dark. It's kind of like Spector's Wall Of Sound. Everything is thrown in there, and yet it works. Similarly, the first BRMC record is great in this way because there are sheets and layers of everything all clamouring for your attention, and to a lesser extent Love Is Hell by Ryan Adams.

At the opposite end of the spectrum are the records I approve of because of the minimal or absent production. Nick Cave's Boatman's Call album, particularly 'Far From Me,' comes to mind because it's got more space on it than it has music. It lets the power of melody, the most impact from the few instruments, and the strength of Cave's songs really shine though. This also applies to Interpol's Turn On The Bright Lights. There are occasional echoes and reverb, but apart from that it's quite spacey, expansive, and mostly dry.

Some of my favourite productions are predominantly live, and this is mostly Dylan (but also applies to Jacksonville City Nights by Ryan Adams). Desire has him with a ridiculously overcluttered band, but they still recorded mostly live and I like the way it sounds. The massive screw-up in the middle of 'Hurricane' makes the record feel homely. Also his most recent one, Modern Times features a band occasionally augmented by lap-steel or strings, but mostly just the band and it still sounds very lush and warm.
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Will

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Re: Production
« Reply #6 on: 19 Feb 2007, 08:20 »

Oh man, I forgot about Matt Bayles.  Aside from what Sam mentioned, his work with Botch, Planes Mistaken For Stars, and Mastodon is top-notch.  My only real gripe with Bayles was the way he handled the Norma Jean "O' God, The Aftermath" songs.  I realize that they are completely derivative, but couldn't he, as the producer of the album they shamelessly ripped off (Botch's "We Are The Romans"), done something to have made that two albums sound at least a little different?
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Kai

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Re: Production
« Reply #7 on: 19 Feb 2007, 09:56 »

The production on Beat Happening's albums is so atrociously bad and so atrociously fitting.

This situation also works for Guided By Voices.
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but the music sucks because the keyboards don't have the cold/mechanical sound they had but a wannabe techno sound that it's pathetic for Rammstein standars.

Joseph

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Re: Production
« Reply #8 on: 19 Feb 2007, 11:56 »

Any else remember the days when Kai was all "You kids and your indie music are lame; go listen to some avante-garde, you idiots!"?
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Kai

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Re: Production
« Reply #9 on: 19 Feb 2007, 12:17 »

Yeah, but then I realized that

man, there are only so many ways you can make a guitar sound like a snake fighting the bourgeoisie French middle class oppressors in a vacuum chamber


plus that is sort of hard to hum
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but the music sucks because the keyboards don't have the cold/mechanical sound they had but a wannabe techno sound that it's pathetic for Rammstein standars.

fish across face

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Re: Production
« Reply #10 on: 19 Feb 2007, 14:29 »

As for my favourite productions, I have a few. Whilst a lot of the rapping on it is actually pretty bad, Dr. Dre's 2001 album has some of the finest production I've heard on a rap record. It's slick, it's shiny, it's textured and detailed but not cluttered. Fabulous stuff. The strings and massive beat on 'The Next Episode' are absolutely great.
Yeah, some of Dre's stuff is amazing, but FWIW all the bits on The Next Episode except the beat are sampled from a track by David MacCallum (who can currently be seen as a doctor called Ducky on NCIS!?!).  So all the strings etc. are produced by the quite insane David Axelrod.

I think Scytale was talking about production in the sense of recording performers, not programming beats, hence my not having much to say...   I guess Hood's 'The Cycle of Days and Seasons' is quite phenomenal.  It's produced by the guy from Third Eye Foundation, his name's something like Matt Elliot.

Edit: Ooh ooh, I do have something to say: the stuff that came out of Jamaica's Studio One is an excellent testament to terrible teribble production sounding fantastic.   Big fuzzy bass, noisiest keys, harsh trebley drums, backing vocals that sound like they were recorded singing behind the lead vocalist through the one mic, etc.  I love it to bits.  Try any Jackie Mittoo album as an example... or compare the two versions of Bob Marley's Put It On.  I much prefer the submerged bass and mutterings of the Jamaican version.
« Last Edit: 19 Feb 2007, 14:34 by fish across face »
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Thrillho

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Re: Production
« Reply #11 on: 19 Feb 2007, 16:10 »

As for my favourite productions, I have a few. Whilst a lot of the rapping on it is actually pretty bad, Dr. Dre's 2001 album has some of the finest production I've heard on a rap record. It's slick, it's shiny, it's textured and detailed but not cluttered. Fabulous stuff. The strings and massive beat on 'The Next Episode' are absolutely great.
Yeah, some of Dre's stuff is amazing, but FWIW all the bits on The Next Episode except the beat are sampled from a track by David MacCallum (who can currently be seen as a doctor called Ducky on NCIS!?!).  So all the strings etc. are produced by the quite insane David Axelrod.

i've not heard the original, so I wouldn't know, but Dre is known to re-record sampels entirely with live instruments rather than take a straight sample.

He has plenty of other magnificent productions though, which are often sampled wholesale from other people. I'm pretty sure it's him that produced 50 Cent's 'Hate It Or Love It,' a great production, sampled in its entirety by Mary J Blige. And he did 'What's The Difference,' taken by Blu Cantrell and Sean Paul. Plus there's 'Forgot About Dre;' I love that production, because it's got those subtle synths, the main guitar riff, and loads of other great stuff.
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Johnny C

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Re: Production
« Reply #12 on: 19 Feb 2007, 16:12 »

I am almost certain that Dave Fridmann's recording touch is Midas-like.
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ScrambledGregs

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Re: Production
« Reply #13 on: 19 Feb 2007, 17:30 »

As I said in another thread, the only time production has bothered me is in certain 80s albums when they use that really compressed, tinny drum sound that makes it seem as though your favorite band fired their drummer and got a drum machine. Bossanova is a good example. I hate the drum sound on it.
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TheoristB

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Re: Production
« Reply #14 on: 19 Feb 2007, 22:38 »

two of my favorite albums as far as production are OK Computer by Radiohead and Pinkerton by Weezer.  both are engineered well but put together in a way that is incredibly emotive and real sounding. 

Today I was listenig to Rogue Wave's Out of the Shadow and have decided the the songs are all good but the production was weak.  The new album is pretty much pop rock gold as far as production goes. 

Also, as much as I love Oingo Boingo their album Dark at the End of the Tunnel has some of the most obnoxious late 80's / early 90's sounding production.  I hate hate hate when acoustic guitar is recorded DI or with a dynamic mic.  I don't get why so many albums from the 80's had this distinctly DI acoustic guitar sound.  It makes me sick.
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Re: Production
« Reply #15 on: 19 Feb 2007, 23:34 »

Notably, I think any album that Flood or Steve Lilywhite have a hand in always tend to sound really excellent.  Same with Adrian Sherwood.  Also, I should add Dave Ogilvie to that mix.  He's under-rated and under-known, I think, at least in terms of his production output(putting aside whatever anyone may think of Jackalope, of course).  And Silvia Massey.  She produced some of my favorite releases of the 90's (as an example, Machines of Loving Grace' album Gilt)

Really horrible?  Sadly, it's on a CD that I really enjoy.  Ferret Disc's "Where's Neil When You Need Him?" has absolutely atrocious production, so much so that I can't listen to it on headphones as the vocals are solely in the left channel throughout.  Ugh.
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fish across face

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Re: Production
« Reply #16 on: 20 Feb 2007, 05:26 »

Ironically Flood's own music is a bit shit, the production not particularly interesting either.  Can't even remember the name of his band... Node?  I remember they did gigs in a London tube station.  I love PJ Harvey's 'Is This Desire?' at least partly because of his hand in the production.

Last year in Tokyo I saw huge video billboards advertising Adrian Sherwood's latest album, above Tokyo's busiest intersection.  That's one of the few foreign acts I saw advertised among the perfectly synthesised J-Pop.  What's up with Japan? 
« Last Edit: 20 Feb 2007, 05:28 by fish across face »
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McTaggart

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Re: Production
« Reply #17 on: 20 Feb 2007, 05:56 »

Last year in Tokyo I saw huge video billboards advertising Adrian Sherwood's latest album, above Tokyo's busiest intersection.  That's one of the few foreign acts I saw advertised among the perfectly synthesised J-Pop.  What's up with Japan? 

Last year in Tokyo I saw huge video billboards advertising a !!! tour, above Tokyo's busiest intersection.  That's one of the few foreign acts I saw advertised among the perfectly synthesised J-Pop.  What's up with Japan? 

???
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fish across face

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Re: Production
« Reply #18 on: 20 Feb 2007, 06:15 »

Heh, I saw an opportunity and took it.  'Tis true.  The only other foreign acts I remember seeing advertised at that crossing were jazz bods who were big in the 70s.
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ScrambledGregs

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Re: Production
« Reply #19 on: 20 Feb 2007, 08:02 »

I'm not sure if everyone else distinguishes between production, mixing, and mastering...but does anybody else own a few albums that are mastered like shit?? This seems to be the case with most albums that were transferred to CD from analog/vinyl masters. They're mastered really low, volume-wise, and it annoys the crap out of me. Before they began re-issuing and remixing Can albums a few years back, I had already bought most of their albums. Future Days is a fantastic album, but I have to crank the volume to hear anything most of the time.
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AlexAttack

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Re: Production
« Reply #20 on: 20 Feb 2007, 09:21 »

sometimes "bad" production can really work in a band's favour.
for example: black flag's damaged is a great record with not so great production but would anyone really want it to have the same production quality as american idiot?. it just wouldn't have that crazy energy that you get from that band.
the same would go for bands like darkthrone and the two gallants (severe genre hopping in this post...). i couldn't really imagine their styles of music produced like say cradle of filth or latter day against me!, ok so darkthrone may have upgraded from using 10watt practise amps for their last couple of records but you get my point.
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Thrillho

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Re: Production
« Reply #21 on: 20 Feb 2007, 10:19 »

two of my favorite albums as far as production are OK Computer by Radiohead and Pinkerton by Weezer.  both are engineered well but put together in a way that is incredibly emotive and real sounding. 

I love Pinkerton. The production is like matt-black. No frills, just fucked-up heartbreak.
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fish across face

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Re: Production
« Reply #22 on: 20 Feb 2007, 14:30 »

I'm not sure if everyone else distinguishes between production, mixing, and mastering...but does anybody else own a few albums that are mastered like shit?? This seems to be the case with most albums that were transferred to CD from analog/vinyl masters. They're mastered really low, volume-wise, and it annoys the crap out of me. Before they began re-issuing and remixing Can albums a few years back, I had already bought most of their albums. Future Days is a fantastic album, but I have to crank the volume to hear anything most of the time.
Yeah, I've always wondered about that one, I have to crank it up too. 

But really I'd prefer it if fewer new albums were limited to fuck and back... I could just leave my amp a little louder and enjoy a nicer dynamic range.  Google "volume wars" if you're not sure what I'm on about.  Most albums mentioned (my "favourite" being 'Californication') are mastered terribly.  Actually, I'd say the vast majority of mastering these days is a bit shit, insofar as albums are limited too much.  Sometimes it works well, e.g. J Dilla's 'Donuts' from last year, but often it's just nasty.

There was an American "IDM" label called M3rck that at least started out with terribly mastered releases.  Again, much too compressed and just lacking the spark that I reckon that kind of music needs.

Actually one of the Rawkus records compilations (maybe the second 'Lyricist Lounge') was hideously mastered - so compressed that the MCs' voices were ducking under the beats.  Just unlistenable for me.

---

I've always admired the production Nile Rogers & Bernard Edwards did in the late 70s on those Chic and Sister Sledge records.  Diana Ross's 'Diana' album sounds fantastic too - Upside Down and I'm Coming Out.  So clear and bright, uncluttered.  Supposedly they were the first ones to crank the sub-bass in a mix too...
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Thrillho

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Re: Production
« Reply #23 on: 20 Feb 2007, 16:01 »

OH I fucking HATE the quiet mastering of old stuff. All my Pink Floyd CDs are so fucking quiet except for like, Division Bell because that came out in 1994 anyway. It's so fucking annoying because if you're listening to more than one artist, the one after Floyd will be stupidly loud, and you can't make decent mix CDs.
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TheoristB

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Re: Production
« Reply #24 on: 20 Feb 2007, 17:05 »

OH I fucking HATE the quiet mastering of old stuff. All my Pink Floyd CDs are so fucking quiet except for like, Division Bell because that came out in 1994 anyway. It's so fucking annoying because if you're listening to more than one artist, the one after Floyd will be stupidly loud, and you can't make decent mix CDs.

Allthough inversely today the trend is to slam the tracks and totaly faltten them so theya re as loud as possible... sometimes they even clip.  Rick Rubin is guilty of this.  Somtimes pushing shit into the red works but offten it doesnt.  I hate how most top 40 releases are mastered.  THey are so flat dynamically.  Totally lame.

I recently mastered with Trevor Sadler in milwaukee.  He was awesome, everything i have heard him do sounds awesome.
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Johnny C

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Re: Production
« Reply #25 on: 21 Feb 2007, 00:17 »

I love Pinkerton. The production is like matt-black. No frills, just fucked-up heartbreak.

The album really benefits from the fact that its production is just raw, furious and unrefined.

Also, the two most recent Wilco studio albums are absolute triumphs of pproduction.
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thermodynamics

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Re: Production
« Reply #26 on: 21 Feb 2007, 01:16 »

the less produced their albums were, the better modest mouse sounds. i love bootlegs and shit they did @ dub narcotic studio (i think calvin johnson was the engineer/producer with those sessions) as well as their first album... it sounds about as dynamic as recording on a 1/2 inch reel to reel in someone's basement or shed, which is perfect for that style.

i totally love the production on dre's chronic 2001.

the most interesting i've heard as of late is the first track, Tokyo Moon, off of Windmill's latest album... clean, highly overdubbed vocals and piano with  a constant person or two singing behind the ebb of the song. There's also a dash of grit in the background, and then when drums come in, they are obviously clipping but give a cool "retro" or "garage" feel to the recording.  I didn't much care for the rest of the album, but that one track is great.

BTW, Windmill sounds really close to Wayne Coyne from Flaming Lips' Transmissions From the Satellite Heart era. Think "She Don't Use Jelly" when the band drops out and Wayne is singing with slide guitar behind him. Only problem is the whole album is that, but never grows into large songs and its mostly piano.
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Thrillho

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Re: Production
« Reply #27 on: 21 Feb 2007, 06:27 »

OH I fucking HATE the quiet mastering of old stuff. All my Pink Floyd CDs are so fucking quiet except for like, Division Bell because that came out in 1994 anyway. It's so fucking annoying because if you're listening to more than one artist, the one after Floyd will be stupidly loud, and you can't make decent mix CDs.

Allthough inversely today the trend is to slam the tracks and totaly faltten them so theya re as loud as possible... sometimes they even clip.  Rick Rubin is guilty of this.  Somtimes pushing shit into the red works but offten it doesnt.  I hate how most top 40 releases are mastered.  THey are so flat dynamically.  Totally lame.

This is true. I hate lack of dynamic range in things today. Which is why I appreciate those bands who explore the full range of loud and quiet and everything in between.
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ScrambledGregs

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Re: Production
« Reply #28 on: 22 Feb 2007, 07:24 »

OH I fucking HATE the quiet mastering of old stuff. All my Pink Floyd CDs are so fucking quiet except for like, Division Bell because that came out in 1994 anyway. It's so fucking annoying because if you're listening to more than one artist, the one after Floyd will be stupidly loud, and you can't make decent mix CDs.

Allthough inversely today the trend is to slam the tracks and totaly faltten them so theya re as loud as possible... sometimes they even clip.  Rick Rubin is guilty of this.  Somtimes pushing shit into the red works but offten it doesnt.  I hate how most top 40 releases are mastered.  THey are so flat dynamically.  Totally lame.

This is true. I hate lack of dynamic range in things today. Which is why I appreciate those bands who explore the full range of loud and quiet and everything in between.

::insert Slint joke here::
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Thrillho

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Re: Production
« Reply #29 on: 22 Feb 2007, 07:26 »

You need to listen to my rap tune.

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ScrambledGregs

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Re: Production
« Reply #30 on: 23 Feb 2007, 08:32 »

I like Explosions in the Sky. They are good.
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Re: Production
« Reply #31 on: 23 Feb 2007, 09:02 »

namely Greg Norman

Rumor has it he's pretty good with a 7 iron.
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Wait so you're letting something that happened 10 years ago ruin your quality of life? What are you, America? :psyduck:
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