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Author Topic: The Joker Begins  (Read 38517 times)

carrotosaurus

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Re: The Joker Begins
« Reply #100 on: 05 Sep 2007, 07:36 »

So it looks like they decided to make the Joker have facepaint instead of having his skin actually be that sickly white color. Kind of disappointing. Oh well.
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Re: The Joker Begins
« Reply #101 on: 05 Sep 2007, 09:11 »

Didn't they show in the first Batman movie that the Joker used makeup ?  I'd say they did it in this just for continuity's sake.
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Re: The Joker Begins
« Reply #102 on: 05 Sep 2007, 09:23 »

No, they didn't. In the Burton version (Which I assume you mean as the first, though the '66 Adam West was the first one), he was permanently scarred and whitened. He wore flesh colored makeup in one scene when he vandalizes a museum on a "date" with Vale.

That said, I don't think it's going to be entirely makeup. I get the feeling it's just going to be a little blotchy and he "touches up" a bit with makeup. I have at least some faith that they won't contradict one of his most common and well known traits when it really just further complicates things (Unlike the organic web shooters in Spider-Man or the changes to Ra's in Begins).
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Re: The Joker Begins
« Reply #103 on: 05 Sep 2007, 17:14 »

Yes, except both those things only improved the movies for the casual film goer and freed up a lot of screen time.
Spiderman wouldn't have worked if he'd had to take the time to invent his webshooters.
Ra's Al Ghul wouldn't have worked in any other way in the context of Batman Begins. Besides, they didn't really change his character too much. You can just assume he has a daughter and uses the lazarus pits off camera. Most importantly, he LOOKED like Ra's Al Ghul and played a good character on the screen. He was one of the good parts of that movie.

Remember, if you die in a movie, you can ALWAYS come back.
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Re: The Joker Begins
« Reply #104 on: 05 Sep 2007, 17:25 »

I don't see the except. You pretty much just completely repeated my point. Having him wear makeup is an unnecessary change that only takes away from the character compared to the idea that neither Spider-Man's or Ra's Al Ghul's changes were a real detraction.
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Re: The Joker Begins
« Reply #105 on: 05 Sep 2007, 18:42 »

Oh right, I misunderstood your post. I thought you were criticising the two decisions about the characters you mentioned. It would seem we are in total agreement! How about that?
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Re: The Joker Begins
« Reply #106 on: 06 Sep 2007, 03:35 »

Woo, Christian Bale is still hot.
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Ozymandias

Re: The Joker Begins
« Reply #107 on: 06 Sep 2007, 07:40 »

...I don't get why making the Joker a psychopath who puts on makeup to look like a clown is any more complicated than the Joker being a psychopath whose skin was illogically bleached into the colors of a clown.
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Re: The Joker Begins
« Reply #108 on: 06 Sep 2007, 10:50 »

It removes the uniqueness of the character. Any dumb fuck can put on makeup and rob banks. He's just some everyday kook if he's putting on makeup. Plus, a big part of what drove him insane in almost every prior origin was the disfigurement.

By that argument, why even bother having a batcave? They could've saved a lot of time by just having him store his shit in a hidden room in the manor, but it's a big part of the mythos that most people on the streets know about. Changing the Joker like that will just confuse the average moviegoer who has a passing knowledge of Batman (Which is the vast majority of people who will go to see it).
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Re: The Joker Begins
« Reply #109 on: 06 Sep 2007, 11:27 »

Ra's Al Ghul wouldn't have worked in any other way in the context of Batman Begins. Besides, they didn't really change his character too much. You can just assume he has a daughter and uses the lazarus pits off camera. Most importantly, he LOOKED like Ra's Al Ghul and played a good character on the screen. He was one of the good parts of that movie.

I agree, although they mispronounced "Ra's" the entire movie and it bugged me so much. It's "Raish" not "Raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaas".

That's a tad off topic though.
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Re: The Joker Begins
« Reply #110 on: 06 Sep 2007, 11:36 »

Actually, that IS the correct pronunciation. The guys who did the animated series mispronounced it. When O'Neil created him, he envisioned it with a short a rather than the long used in the 90's cartoon.
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Re: The Joker Begins
« Reply #111 on: 06 Sep 2007, 11:55 »

Actually there's huge debate over this, there are a lot of people who claim Denny O'Neil pronounces it Raish while others claim Raaas. From what I understand "Raish" is the correct Arabic pronunciation but I have also seen people argue that as well. From the evidence I've seen I would go with "Raish". There is also an episode in series 3 of Batman Beyond where Talia corrects Terry when he pronounces it "Raaas" which I think would be weird thing to do if they had been mispronouncing it all along.
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Re: The Joker Begins
« Reply #112 on: 06 Sep 2007, 12:04 »

One could argue that that statement from Beyond was an in-joke on their potential mispronunciation.

There's a CBR column called "Comic Book Urban Legends Revealed" where they debunk and confirm various comic book shit. I'll have to look in there or submit the question. No one seems to be capable of a straight answer.
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Re: The Joker Begins
« Reply #113 on: 06 Sep 2007, 12:26 »

http://comicgeekspeak.comicbookpage.com/cgs-episode062.mp3

An interview with Denny O'Neil where he says that it's "Raish" and that he got his daughter to check at a linguistics department at a university. He also says he could be wrong though. :P It also comes up that someone else at a comic panel thing said that Denny pronounced it "Raaas" but here he most definitely pronounces it "Raish". It's in like the first 10 minutes of the podcast.

Episode 62 from here: http://www.comicgeekspeak.com/episodes.asp
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Re: The Joker Begins
« Reply #114 on: 07 Sep 2007, 11:05 »

It removes the uniqueness of the character. Any dumb fuck can put on makeup and rob banks. He's just some everyday kook if he's putting on makeup. Plus, a big part of what drove him insane in almost every prior origin was the disfigurement.

I'll never understand vehement adherence to a particular continuity, I guess. If it acts like the Joker, laughs like the Joker, and kills like the Joker, it's the Joker to me, no matter what origin they use. I mean, the Joker himself has said he doesn't know his real origin in the comics anyway. He could've always been insane. He could've been locked in Arkham Asylum and then was suddenly released one day with a mysterious gas causing him to experience all of his deepest fears, including a giant, demonic man-bat flying through the sky, breaking his mind completely.

Does it really matter? Rumor is that Harvey Dent won't be splashed with acid. That Two-Face is born of something even more brutal. Does it matter if the story ends up good and the characters are mostly the same?
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Re: The Joker Begins
« Reply #115 on: 07 Sep 2007, 11:42 »

The adherence to a continuity is for the sake of staying somewhat faithful to the source material. If you're going to change things without it serving a function, why adapt it at all? Why not just create something new? As an example:

You people are missing the worst part of this news.

Veidt is "a costumed adventurer who retired voluntarily, disclosed his identity and built a large fortune. He hatches a plot to avert a global catastrophe he believes will be caused by Dr. Manhattan."

What?

By your standard, who cares about sticking to the strict continuity? I myself outright did not care for the graphic novel to begin with. I do, however, understand that there are many devout fans of it and can't see the reason behind unnecessarily changing things from the original source material.

In terms of your analysis of his origin, you're neglecting the timeframe of the confusion. It's canon that he was knocked into the chemical vat while being pursued by Batman. This is canon because Batman was there for it and remembers the occurance. It's been in every single in-continuity version of the Joker's origin. Before that, only Joker himself is witness to what really happened and is subject to confusion, but from the chemical plant incident on, it's all documented.

My entire point is: why change it? Making it makeup isn't going to make it any more accessible to the moviegoing audience, so why raise up a big ol' fuck you to the continuity sticklers if it's not going to improve the film material for anyone? If there's no gain to be found in the adaptation, just leave it as it was. A good example would be the concept behind Phoenix in the X-Men movies. Whether you enjoyed the execution or not, the concept was solid. Doing the whole cosmic thing would've been completely impractical, making it a split personality for the sake of the confined time limit of the movies made perfect sense.

Conversely, why change the Joker? We know he's scarred, it shows in the set pictures and prerelease material. It's no less practical to have him come out of whatever scars him white as a sheet than it is for him to actually apply the makeup. In fact, doing makeup would require even further explanation AND would go on to confuse people who saw the Burton movie, watched the cartoons or read the comics, thus annoying a good chunk of the probable audience. All told, Joker's origin in the Burton movie took all of maybe five minutes of screen time, there's no reason to change too many of the standard details.

I think this is all going to wind up as a moot point, though. I think people are blowing it out of proportion. It looks to me more that the scarring and whiteness are blotchy as opposed to him actually applying makeup. Not to mention, most rumors and interviews allege that he's basic the Joker primarily off of the Killing Joke.

In terms of Dent, I've heard more rumors leading that the Joker does it during trial. Beyond that, the timing is less important to the character than the actual scarring and split personalities.
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Re: The Joker Begins
« Reply #116 on: 07 Sep 2007, 15:46 »

we are arguing over whether or not they will show a thirty-second scene in which the joker puts makeup on his face

come on guys we are better than this
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Re: The Joker Begins
« Reply #117 on: 07 Sep 2007, 16:52 »

I'm a regular contributer to the Newsarama forums.

In other words, not all of us are better than this.
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Re: The Joker Begins
« Reply #118 on: 12 Sep 2007, 06:45 »

The joker will jump up in the trial and slice off half of Dent's face? Spray him with Joker gas and drive him insane making him scar himself?
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Re: The Joker Begins
« Reply #119 on: 12 Sep 2007, 13:39 »

I thought it was acid but crazy gas would be a neat touch.
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Re: The Joker Begins
« Reply #120 on: 13 Sep 2007, 03:11 »

Well word on the street is that they're not going to use acid. And that the reason for his scarring is gonna be more twisted than taking acid to the face. But that it still happens during the trial.

Actually, I don't know what my source for this, it's probably all bullshit.
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Re: The Joker Begins
« Reply #121 on: 17 Sep 2007, 08:39 »

Common misconceptions about the old Batman movies:

-Jack Nicholson was a great Joker
-The last two weren't completely without merit.
-Casting in general was pretty good.
-The suits in Batman&Robin were pretty cool.

To answer on this:

a.  Jack was very good as Joker, Mr. Ledger has some big shoes to fill and I hope his acting is up to it (and based on Knight's Tale, I'm not hopeful);
b.  Yes they were.  Jim carey as Riddler was just way too over the top, and although I can ofter watch any movie that puts Uma Thurman into revealing clothing, she and Arnie were just complety wooden in their roles.  Neither of the two actors playing Batman added any depth or nuance to their portrayals of the Detective, in my opinion.  Clooney for instance is much better as an actor where he is able to act the likeable rogue (Oh Brother where Art Thou? and Ocean's Eleven come to mind), but he was way too serious as Bruce Wayne/the Batman;
c.  The First two movies were well cast and well acted and directed, the next two just seemed to go off the rails.  Big names doesn't equate to solid casting; and
d.  Let me get this straight, we're talking about the costumes with the nipples, right????
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Re: The Joker Begins
« Reply #122 on: 17 Sep 2007, 14:13 »

I liked the first one, and to a limited extent, the second one, but what killed it for me in the later movies were all the frikking LIGHTS.  They decked out the batmobile in neon and lit up the city like it was frikking Vegas.  That is NOT Gotham City.  It is supposed to be a dark, gothic looking city.
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Re: The Joker Begins
« Reply #123 on: 17 Sep 2007, 17:00 »

a.  Jack was very good as Joker, Mr. Ledger has some big shoes to fill and I hope his acting is up to it (and based on Knight's Tale, I'm not hopeful);

Judging Heath Ledger's career from Knight's Tale makes about as much sense as judging Peter O'Toole's from Troy.
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Re: The Joker Begins
« Reply #124 on: 17 Sep 2007, 19:50 »

In Batman Confidential, DC have been retelling Joker's origin yet again.

In it, Jack is already a thief with a flair for the dramatic. He ends up going on a killing spree and after killing a woman Wayne loves, Batman lobs a pair of batarangs at him, scarring his face into a vicious grin. The story isn't complete yet, but the solicits show Joker emerging from the infamous chemical pool on the cover.

Typically, a comics company only reimagines a character's origin for the sake of putting it in line with a movie or TV show currently in progress. I'd lay good odds on this being the origin for the movie, or at least something very close.

Honestly, though, I'm holding out hope they stick with the Killing Joke angle, as they're allegedly put a lot of thought into that. I was a big fan of the whole "one really bad day would drive anyone insane" idea.
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Re: The Joker Begins
« Reply #125 on: 17 Sep 2007, 19:54 »

Seriously though, guys... are we not all gonna go see the movie? Whatever bitching is going on about how much this or that part of it is going to suck, we are so all gonna go see it. Or raise your hand if you're not. Prove me wrong, if I am.

I'm tired of speculating, myself. I just can't wait for it to come out. I think a ton of you are going to be so pleasantly surprised. The only way for me to go is down. I am so super excited for this film. I really think it's going to be great. I just hope it doesn't let me down, but I'm not going to bother worrying about it so much. 
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Re: The Joker Begins
« Reply #126 on: 17 Sep 2007, 20:25 »

I am not getting my hopes up, and I prolly won't watch it till it hits DVD.
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Re: The Joker Begins
« Reply #127 on: 18 Sep 2007, 01:33 »

Seriously?

I mean...seriously? A sequel to Batman Begins by the same director with the same cast and everything doesn't merit a theater watch?
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Re: The Joker Begins
« Reply #128 on: 18 Sep 2007, 03:06 »

Actually, I take that back, when does it get released ?  I may be there with FirstShowing.net if it has a big opening (meaning big enough for people to camp out)... but I am in doubts it will be that big.
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Re: The Joker Begins
« Reply #129 on: 18 Sep 2007, 06:38 »

I don't think it's going to be a big opening, but I'll definately be there.
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Re: The Joker Begins
« Reply #130 on: 18 Sep 2007, 12:09 »

Common misconceptions about the old Batman movies:

-Jack Nicholson was a great Joker
-The last two weren't completely without merit.
-Casting in general was pretty good.
-The suits in Batman&Robin were pretty cool.
Post.

I want you to read that post of mine you quoted again and again until a word in that first sentence stands out at you.
Nicholson: Not the joker.
Sequels:Again, read that first setence.
Casting: Wrong. Sure, the first two had good actors/acting, but the casting was still WRONG.
suits: Yeah, the ones with the nipples.
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