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Author Topic: Zelda(s)  (Read 11516 times)

ScrambledGregs

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Zelda(s)
« on: 12 Jun 2007, 07:38 »

Let's throw down. Like, for realz. The Zelda series. All of it. Your favorites?? Least favorites?? For the sake of argument let's not count the CD-i games.

My favorite is The Wind Waker. This game was an absolute fucking blast to play and I loved every single thing about it. It probably helps that I played through it with the strategy guide so the whole "sail around and find Triforce pieces for an hour or two" part of the game didn't piss me off too much. Anyway, I really think the setting of the game is the most interesting of all the Zelda games, with an island hopping/sea faring overworld, as well as a cool backstory that hints at the fact that all the Zelda games are interconnected via various versions of a hero named Link having the destiny to save the world. And for what it's worth, this game has one of my absolute favorite last boss fights of all time.

My least favorite is Majora's Mask. Don't get me wrong; I don't think this game is bad or anything. I admire and respect what they were trying to do, but it did not work for me. I can't stand time limits in games unless we're talking old school arcade games or something like Valkyrie Profile where you have a limited "time" for each section of the game. I realize you can travel back and forth in time, and the three day format sets up all kinds of interesting events where you have to talk to a character at a certain time or day. But in the end, I was always left frustrated and bored by the game. It honestly felt like someone did a mod for Ocarina of Time and then required me to buy an expansion pak to play it. I like to think of the original Zelda and Ocarina of Time as fairly analogous, so the same goes for the Adventures of Link and Majora's Mask: interesting experiments which failed to capture my interest.
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Re: Zelda(s)
« Reply #1 on: 12 Jun 2007, 08:06 »

Shit. Just a dick move to ask me to name a favorite. I figure it's Twilight Princess, but honorable mentions must be stated:

The Minish Cap: So many people say that Majora's Mask and Wind Waker are underrated, but NOBODY talks about this game EVER. This game is excellent in pretty much every conceivable way, and the fact it's one of the few not actually developed by Nintendo (Capcom handled this one) speaks volumes for it. It's beautiful, especially for a GBA game and the music is a great mix of classics from the series. The bosses are mostly a blast and Vaati was on a level with Aghanim and Ganon in terms of awesomeness as a Zelda villain.

A Link to the Past: This one gets enough praise, so I won't go insanely in depth, but until Twilight Princess hit, this one was easily my favorite.

Wind Waker: Vastly underrated. The boring-ass fetch-quest for the Triforce and the missing dungeons (At least a handful of dungeons were cut from the final product, hence the fetch-quest) aside, it was a great game. Ganondorf had never been more of a badass and the ending was just fantastic (Farewell Hyrule King being my favorite Zelda tune to date).

Top game - Twilight Princess: There is just no describing how incredible this game was to me. They hit every single aspect perfectly. The gameplay was perfectly balanced between human and wolf mode, the music was stirring, the environments were beathtaking. It had excellent exploring and some god damn EPIC boss battles (Stalfos being a standout, Link Pro-Skater FTW). Midna gave the advantage of exposition to the silent protagonist of Link without being an annoying twat like the fairy from OoT (While I love that game, it's second only to FF VII in terms of being overrated). This all aside from how utterly perfect the Wii control scheme was. I've heard plenty of people bitch about it, but it's always a matter of user error. If you pay attention and do it right, the controls are spot-on perfect. The controls enamor you in the experience and draw you even further into it. I lost myself for hours at a time (And I am not someone who spends much time gaming anymore) going through and performing the various unlockable combos (Helm splitter and the surprise attack being top favorites). It never got boring or tedious and the items are among the best the series have ever seen (Double clawshots, woooo!). One of the best gaming experiences I've ever had.

I've played all of the Zelda-proper titles outside of Four Swords Adventures (I even have the two Oracles games) and can't really pick a "least favorite" as each stands out in its own manner. If I had to pick, I'd go with Link's Adventure, as it just kind of lacks that real Zelda feel.
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jhocking

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Re: Zelda(s)
« Reply #2 on: 12 Jun 2007, 08:41 »

Link to the Past is the SNES one, right?  That's my favorite, but then I haven't really played any Zelda games in a long time.  It's weird because I really like the Zelda games that I have played, and I am incredibly fascinated by other titles that I haven't, I just haven't gotten any of the newer Nintendo consoles.  Having just learned that Wii can play Gamecube titles, I am so looking forward to buying a Wii and then playing both Windwaker and Twilight Princess.

Least favorite? I guess the second one, Adventure of Link or whatever, since that's the only one I've played that I haven't bothered to actually complete (got to the last dungeon, got bored.) It's misleading to say that's my least favorite though, since I still liked it. Although, my memory of it ought to benefit from being the first NES game I ever played. Seriously, I played Zelda and Metal Gear before I even played Mario; how prescient.
« Last Edit: 12 Jun 2007, 08:45 by jhocking »
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Scandanavian War Machine

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Re: Zelda(s)
« Reply #3 on: 12 Jun 2007, 10:18 »

-Link to the Past is, hands-down, the best.
-Ocarina of Time was amazing.
-Majora's Mask very good.
-Wind Waker was a blast but by the time i got to the last temple i just kind of stopped playing and never picked it back up. i dont know why.
-Twilight Princess is absolutely amazing but i need to play through it again to make a final decision because i only played through it once and loved it but it strikes me as a game that i might not enjoy as much the second time. but who knows?

i don't feel like talking about the others, good as they may be. These (above) are just the highlights for me.
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Re: Zelda(s)
« Reply #4 on: 12 Jun 2007, 12:41 »

My favorite is, as with many others, A Link to the Past.  My least favorite?  Majora's Mask.  It was pretty, yes, but the three day limit just murdered the gameplay to me.  I think that overall, A Link to the Past, The Minish Cap, and Windwaker stand out as the best Zelda games to me, with Majora's Mask being the only one I've played that I really didn't care for, though to be honest my second least favorite would be Ocarina of Time.  I dunno, I just didn't like the N64 as a platform for the Zelda games...
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Re: Zelda(s)
« Reply #5 on: 12 Jun 2007, 13:02 »

Hopefully now when the spreading of the DS is like four in every household, more people will pick up "The Minish Cap" and enjoy it. I've played it through twice, and it's definitely on my top three of Zelda games, along with TP and OoT. Looking forward to Phantom Hourglass though!
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Re: Zelda(s)
« Reply #6 on: 12 Jun 2007, 13:14 »

Wow, apparently I was wrong on the underappreciation for Minish Cap. No one ever seems to talk about it, but the game just doesn't get old.
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ScrambledGregs

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Re: Zelda(s)
« Reply #7 on: 12 Jun 2007, 14:13 »

The problem with Minish Cap is that it came out at a time when we were flooded with Zelda games. Within a year or so of each other, they had released Wind Waker and the Oracle games. Minish Cap got absolutely ignored because everyone else was used to Zelda games coming in long cycles. It was the same way with the Metroid series. I think a lot of people missed out on one of the recent Metroid games because they all came out within a relatively short amount of time. It was like Metroid Fusion, Metroid Prime, Metroid: Zero Mission, and Metroid Prime II within one or two years of each other.

Compare this to the NES/SNES/N64 era. You had, essentially, one Zelda game for each platform (I'm glazing over Zelda II for NES). As for Metroid, there were literally three games in the series and then almost a decade before any more were released.
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ackblom12

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Re: Zelda(s)
« Reply #8 on: 12 Jun 2007, 14:27 »

Wind Waker was my favorite by far. The game was beautiful, the combat was finally fucking fun and it was great seeing what had happened to some of the characters from Ocarina. The ending was easily worth the fucking triforce hunt.

Majora's Mask was the only Zekda game I really didn't enjoy. At all. A neat experiment that bored me to fuckin tears.

Also, I'm one of the few people I know who actually preferred Link's Awakening to A Link to the Past. I just found it a lot more fun and interesting.
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Ozymandias

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Re: Zelda(s)
« Reply #9 on: 12 Jun 2007, 14:41 »

Majora's Mask was the most interesting, innovative, and emotionally compelling Zelda game to ever be made. It took the solid gameplay of OoT and actually made a good game around it. It is, far and away, my favorite Zelda game. The open-ended gameplay was amazing, the world was fascinating, the characters actually had a life to them. Any game that almost makes me cry is top notch.

Runner up is Wind Waker, for its intelligent, dark plot in the midst of adorable graphics. A perfect battle system and awesome items pulled together the game, despite the annoying final Triforce quest and lack of dungeons.

After that comes the Oracle series for their sheer scope and love of the series' roots The password system was annoying, but what can you do?

Then LttP, because it went balls out with the size of the game so early in the SNES's life. Soooo many damn dungeons and hidden secrets. Fucking awesome.

OoT was too easy, too bland, and too already done. The plot was LttP. The dungeons were LttP. The gameplay was Link in Mario 64.  BFD.

Twilight Princess was even worse, because it wanted to be OoT so hard and be the darker Zelda that morons across the world wanted that it just ended up a complete mess in terms of plot, atmosphere, and creativity. Meh. Didn't even die once in that stupid game.

Minish Cap isn't even a Zelda game. It's just an annoyance.
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Re: Zelda(s)
« Reply #10 on: 12 Jun 2007, 15:08 »

The problem with Minish Cap is that it came out at a time when we were flooded with Zelda games. Within a year or so of each other, they had released Wind Waker and the Oracle games.

The Oracles came out in 2001, more along the lines of Majora's Mask.

Winder Waker, Four Sword Adventures, the LttP port and Minish Cap all did come out relatively close to each other.

As for Ozy, now I know why he dislikes Twilight Princess so much: he simply doesn't care for Zelda games. While Majora's Mask is a solid game in its own right (Outside of that abysmally implemented 72 hours feature, horrible fucking hindrance on the gameplay), it's really minimal in feeling like a real Zelda game. Just like Link's Adventure. In its own right and when taken out of context of the series, it's solid, but it really doesn't seem to shine with quite the luster of the more mainstream entries into the series, in my opinion.

My biggest question on your gripe with Twilight Princess is how you can praise ANY Zelda game when easiness and not dying once is a big complaint for you. Link's Adventure was, bar none, the only difficult Zelda game EVER produced. Majora's Mask wasn't difficult, it was frustrating. The only Zelda game I ever had trouble with aside was the original and that's 'cause I was fucking four the first time I played it. Hell, Link to the Past is probably the easiest entry into the entire series. It's always been just a matter of figuring out the patterns of any given boss and you've got it all solved. Zelda's overall never been about difficulty and challenge, it's about exploration, an epic feel, that next item and dungeons, dungeons, dungeons, a set of things Twilight Princess had in spades. Your comparison to OoT completely eludes me, too. What few really blatant similarities it has to OoT are themes that have been running through the series for over two decades now. If I had to compare it to a previous entry to the series, I'd say LttP with the light/dark motif and darker story (OoT was never really that dark in comparison to the others).

And what exactly makes Minish Cap "not even a Zelda game?" It lacked Ganon, that was about it and that's a nice refresher the series really needed. He was stale by OoT. Wind Waker did a nice job of reviltalizing him and his role in Twilight Princess was rather minimal overall. Everything else screamed "Zelda game" and it actually managed to outdo Link to the Past, one of the most beautiful SNES games ever produced, in terms of visual appeal.
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Re: Zelda(s)
« Reply #11 on: 12 Jun 2007, 15:35 »

You know what wasn't done before in Ocarina of Time? Z-Targeting.

And what I mean by that is that every fucking game with a lock-on system owes its ass to Ocarina of Time.
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Re: Zelda(s)
« Reply #12 on: 12 Jun 2007, 18:09 »

Umm. Star Fox 64 had auto targeting in it and it came out before Ocarina of Time (SF release date: 7/1/97; OoT release date: 11/23/08). I'm sure other games also had this feature before OoT.
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Re: Zelda(s)
« Reply #13 on: 12 Jun 2007, 18:14 »

Can we call it "Ocarina" rather than "OoT"? I have the urge to pronounce "OoT" phoenetically and that makes it sound just plain stupid.
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Re: Zelda(s)
« Reply #14 on: 12 Jun 2007, 18:37 »

Star Fox 64 was a space shooter, though, so a lock-on system was obvious. Perhaps I should have clarified that action games hadn't conceived of a lock-on system before Ocarina.

The point being is, Ocarina of Time is the highest reviewed game of all time for a reason. It's a fucking masterpiece.

Also, the CD-i games are not part of the official series, so they don't count. Unlike the Minish Cap, they were not only not developed by Nintendo in-house, but they were not published by Nintendo either. In fact, the only reason they exist at all was because of some bizarre licensing agreement Nintendo made when they were trying to get Phillips to partner with them to make a CD-version of the SNES. When Phillips decided to make their own console, they stuck the Zelda and Mario names to a couple awful games to sell some more copies because they had the rights anyway.
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Re: Zelda(s)
« Reply #15 on: 12 Jun 2007, 20:36 »

My introduction to Twilight Princess was the final battle with Ganondorf (which i might add is one of the best final battles i've ever seen). Probably not the best way to get to know the game, i know, but it was enough to make me consider getting a Wii.

Ocarina of Time was pretty good. But i liked Majora's Mask better. I don't think that 3 day system is a hindrance to the gameplay, in fact, i think it enhances it. It makes you focus instead of fucking around (which can be done just fine if you want to) And be that as it may, i think it has by far the most interesting storyline in all of the Zelda series. There's no Ganon, you're not in Hyrule, even Zelda's "role" is more a cameo than anything else. Just something completely new...i mean, straying from a storyline that has hooked pretty much every nintendo fan i can think of since the NES, and creating a different plot that actually matches the previous one in terms of depth is something few games have achieved. Majora's Mask is a good example.
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Re: Zelda(s)
« Reply #16 on: 12 Jun 2007, 21:26 »

The final battle in Twilight Princess is pretty amazing.
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Re: Zelda(s)
« Reply #17 on: 12 Jun 2007, 22:21 »

Thirded. I don't think I've ever played another game with a more epic final boss battle while being fun to do. Wind Waker's final boss battle is aesthetically incredibly, but the entire mirror shield/light arrows dynamic is needlessly frustrating. I end up going back at least every month to play that boss battle (When I bought my HD projector, it was one of the first things I fired up, right after Star Wars).
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Re: Zelda(s)
« Reply #18 on: 12 Jun 2007, 22:29 »

my favorite moment of the whole series was the end of the battle with Ganon in Wind Waker, with him turning to stone and then all of the water come crashing down on Hyrule.  I wanted the finale of the battle against Ganon in Twlight Princess to be that epic, but he just stood there, dead, and I just sort of freaked out wondering why he did not explode or anything.

my lfavorite list would probably go Twlight Princess, Wind Waker, Ocarina, Majora's Mask, and then Link to the Past
« Last Edit: 13 Jun 2007, 18:03 by Blue Kitty »
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Re: Zelda(s)
« Reply #19 on: 13 Jun 2007, 03:25 »

Star Fox 64 was a space shooter, though, so a lock-on system was obvious. Perhaps I should have clarified that action games hadn't conceived of a lock-on system before Ocarina.


Are you talking about on the 64 or games in general Cause I remember Fade to Black  had a rather good lock on targeting system (was a very underrated game imo).

The only Zelda game I've played was Ocarina of Time, I enjoyed it but not really enough to go and play any of the other Zelda games.
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Re: Zelda(s)
« Reply #20 on: 13 Jun 2007, 12:33 »

Twilight Princess's final battle was boring and easy. It wanted to be epic like OoT and Wind Waker's, so it just decided to use both of those boss battles and ultimately be old hat.

And if by "not caring for Zelda games" you mean "not caring for rehashed shit", I fucking hate Zelda games.
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ScrambledGregs

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Re: Zelda(s)
« Reply #21 on: 13 Jun 2007, 13:33 »

Starfox 64's auto targeting system is NOTHING like Ocarina of Time. Starfox 64's auto targeting/lock-on system is basically copied wholesale from the Panzer Dragoon games, which came out earlier than Starfox 64.

Ocarina's lock-on targeting is more akin to an easier version of circle strafing in a FPS. Metroid Prime is practically only beatable if you constantly use lock-on circle strafing to fight the bosses.
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Re: Zelda(s)
« Reply #22 on: 13 Jun 2007, 14:10 »

Of course it's only beatable if you constantly use lock-on. The game was designed around the lock-on. It's way too fast and requires too much precision for the game to be played with normal FPS controls.
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Re: Zelda(s)
« Reply #23 on: 13 Jun 2007, 19:25 »

Wind Waker was the best but the final battle was lacking.
Least favorite would have to be Link to the past. It just lacked a lot.
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Re: Zelda(s)
« Reply #24 on: 13 Jun 2007, 21:38 »

I found that twillight princess wass too easy. The Dungeons were too short. I remember the complaint about Wind Waker having too few dungeons so nintendo threw in as many 'dungeons' as they could in this one. The last few dungeons in TP should have been alot longer and more difficult. Similarly I found the bosses in the last two games (TP and WW) were all too simple and easy to kill. Attacking the weak spot repeatedly is not a fun way to fight a boss. Saying that I did find the boss in the water temple of TP to be my favourite because it felt truly epic and as if I was fighting and ancient beast.

Don't get me wrong, they were two great games but just a bit too easy. I found OoT to be more challenging and therefore fun.
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Re: Zelda(s)
« Reply #25 on: 14 Jun 2007, 05:49 »

The biggest complaint I hear from people about Twilight Princess is how easy the bosses in it are and how once you find the pattern, it's cake. I'd recommend these people go back and play the prior Zelda games, Hell, just about ANY prior Nintendo produced game. There is only one boss in Link to the Past (The moth thing in the Skull Woods dungeon) who doesn't follow a very specific and discernable pattern and they're all easily taken down once you figure out their weak point. This has pretty much always been the case with Zelda.

I've been playing through Metroid Prime again and, while I had trouble with a lot of bosses the first time through, I haven't died yet and I've only got two bosses left (Meta Ridley and Metroid Prime). Pretty much every boss in Nintendo games has a specific weak point that makes the boss easy as hell once you find it.
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ScrambledGregs

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Re: Zelda(s)
« Reply #26 on: 14 Jun 2007, 09:17 »

Shit, that goes for practically every game ever. Criticizing Zelda games for having bosses with patterns and weak spots is the height of idiocy and selective memory because it's something nearly all games have used.
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Re: Zelda(s)
« Reply #27 on: 14 Jun 2007, 10:35 »

I was going to point that out, but didn't get around to bothering.

Welcome to the world of artificial intelligence, folks. Shit moves in a pattern the vast majority of the time. No matter how random it seems, there is a specific pattern to it.
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Re: Zelda(s)
« Reply #28 on: 19 Jun 2007, 10:35 »

[...] last two games (TP and WW) [...]

The last two Zelda Games were not Twilight Princess and WindWaker.  They were Twilight Princess and Four Swords Adventure.  (Or if you wanna be real technical TP and Minish Cap.)

My favourite is FSA.  Especially when doing the co-op with a buddy.  I used to steal my friend's "back-up" and run off to the corner of the screen for boss battles.  It was always fun hearng him yell something along the lines of "D!  You Bastard!  ... I'm Dead!"


I also found some of those bosses to be a little more difficult, especially playing single player.  You have to cycle through the Links to get a specific colour to attack, while avoiding the boss' attacks.

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Re: Zelda(s)
« Reply #29 on: 19 Jun 2007, 22:37 »

Welcome to the world of artificial intelligence, folks. Shit moves in a pattern the vast majority of the time. No matter how random it seems, there is a specific pattern to it.

It's got nothing to do with artificial intelligence. The boss battles are all the most scripted ones you'll find, and the reason they're scripted and there's a certain way to kill them that you kinda have to figure out is to make them more fun than standing there slicing away at somethings ankles while you gradually wear down all it's hp. Boss battles like in Dungeon Siege are not fun. Everyone attack, hit potions occasionally, get your nature mage to spam heal party... eh.
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Re: Zelda(s)
« Reply #30 on: 03 Jul 2007, 05:17 »

Where is "Link's Awakening" getting a mention in amung all the shouting? By sheer coincidence i picked this up again recently and started playing it properly for the first time in about 5 years. its a fantastic game, and apparently very very underrated. In today's context it maybe pales against the handheld port of LTTP, but given its 14 years old now, thats forgivable. Great difficulty gradient on it, good slant on the whole "its just a dream" ending, very cool music for the original gameboy, a little pathos ("Link examines the chest. Wow, this is a nice chest") a few little nods to early Mario games, bosses that aren't exactly linear or follow too much of a pattern. Its still a dream to play all these years later. Ahhh... AS for the least favourite, well, it would have to be Majora's Mask. Guess i just felt too limited by the 72 hour thing, and there just wasn't the scope to go and ride for days, or fish, or just relax and enjoy the environment in the same way as Ocarina.
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Re: Zelda(s)
« Reply #31 on: 03 Jul 2007, 06:28 »

The reason I never mentioned it is I didn't want to blather on for two pages verbally felating every Zelda game I've played, so I wanted to limit it to just the best of the best to me. I do quite love Link's Awakening and think it's a fantastic game, but in terms of handhelds, the Link to the Past port and Minish Cap are both better in my mind.
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Re: Zelda(s)
« Reply #32 on: 04 Jul 2007, 00:46 »

Ocarina of Time is, I believe, not only the best in the Zelda series but I'd put it easily in the top 10 best video games of all time.

I'm not alone either... it was the first game to ever receive a perfect score in Famitsu (reputable Japanese gaming magazine) and I came across this via digg the other day, headline "Ocarina Of Time Voted Best Game Ever".
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Dissy

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Re: Zelda(s)
« Reply #33 on: 10 Jul 2007, 12:45 »

Twilight Princess's final battle was boring and easy. It wanted to be epic like OoT and Wind Waker's, so it just decided to use both of those boss battles and ultimately be old hat.

And if by "not caring for Zelda games" you mean "not caring for rehashed shit", I fucking hate Zelda games.



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Re: Zelda(s)
« Reply #34 on: 11 Jul 2007, 16:43 »

Like many boarders here, Zelda was one of the first games I ever got into.  as a direct result i love all kinds of RPG's now.  I think what made Zelda so special was the fact that every other game was a platformer when i was a kid, and here was this, beast, unlike anything i'd ever seen.  the first time i was proud of myself for finishing a game, it was zelda.

that said, Zelda has pushed a LOT of envelopes in its time.  I mean the second game was such a radical departure from the first that i wasn't even sure it was the same series any more.  I have never played MM, but the time thing looks like an interesting idea. I'm hoping there is a DS port that wont cost too much so i can check it out

also, i am assuming there will be a standalone title for the DS right?
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Re: Zelda(s)
« Reply #35 on: 11 Jul 2007, 16:52 »

Phantom Hourglass is a standalone DS title and comes out in America on October 1st. It's already out in Japan, but I don't know about any dates for other territories.
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Ozymandias

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Re: Zelda(s)
« Reply #36 on: 12 Jul 2007, 21:30 »

Uhm...

You've clearly missed the point.

I like Zelda games.

I don't like the ones that add nothing original or special to the series. That don't push what the series can be about or try new things. That sit comfortably knowing that it doesn't matter if it's the same game they did before, because it'll sell anyway.

I like the different ones. OoT and Twilight Princess were cold, emotionless, and blank to me. Meh. Meh Meh Meh.
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Storm Rider

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Re: Zelda(s)
« Reply #37 on: 12 Jul 2007, 21:45 »

You're crazy. That's all I have to say to this.
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