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Author Topic: Will you watch these Watchmen?  (Read 123633 times)

Ford Prefect

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Re: Will you watch these Watchmen?
« Reply #300 on: 11 Mar 2009, 18:10 »

Man, I started writing about the movie and just couldn't stop. If anyone's interested in my long rambling review it's here.

I just wanted to let you know that I thought your article was well thought out and on target. I have also found that in the days since watching the film the sheen has come off, and while I was overall content with the film, there was room for improvement. I think that the part of the article that resonated most with me was about Veidt. He couldn't have come off as more evil from the get-go unless his laughs all started with the letter M.
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lprkn

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Re: Will you watch these Watchmen?
« Reply #301 on: 11 Mar 2009, 18:37 »

goddamn education

I guess I didn't realize it cost them 100 million to make. All the same, I'm glad it was made, if for no other reason than to get people to read the book.
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KvP

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Re: Will you watch these Watchmen?
« Reply #302 on: 11 Mar 2009, 18:50 »

Actually I'd predict the readership of the comic to be bumped up modestly at best, even if you remove from the equation all the people who don't like comics or have some other arbitrary / preferencial reason for not reading, all the illiterate people, and all the frat boys. Maybe someone who knows comics history can shine some light on how the popularity of Superman and Batman comics changed as their movies came out? Maybe I'm wrong.

Watchmen is a mystery novel. This isn't a case of the Shining, where the events of the narrative are changed drastically. As has been noted to Zack Snyder's credit, the film is 95% faithful to the book's central narrative. If you've seen the movie then there is no mystery anymore (curiously I'd expect the opposite for person reading the comic - he/she'd probably want to watch the movie just to see how it was realized) Really, all you're missing from the movie are the B and C stories of the Black Freighter and the peripheral "normal" characters' stories. And I don't think just that stuff is going to make most people interested in visiting the comic, no matter how well-woven the elements are in comparison to the movie, which is rather spartan (hurr hurr) and threadbare.

That's not even taking into account the proposed 3 1/2 hour Director's Cut of the film that will make it to DVD. Add that and the only thing the comic has on the film are the peripheral characters, if that.

Really the only way I'd see it happening is if someone watched the movie and loved it so much that they felt compelled to go out and read the novel in spite of all those picked nits. And I can't say I've heard from anyone who hasn't read the novel that really loved the movie.
« Last Edit: 11 Mar 2009, 18:55 by KvP »
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Johnny C

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Re: Will you watch these Watchmen?
« Reply #303 on: 11 Mar 2009, 20:02 »

The golden ratio for execs is a 3:1 return, all sales counted. If a movie makes budget in box office and then does double its budget in home sales that's considered a success.

EDIT: Also, sales for the graphic novel have already experienced a bump. Like, it's not "maybe it will happen." It already has happened.
« Last Edit: 11 Mar 2009, 20:03 by Johnny C »
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carrotosaurus

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Re: Will you watch these Watchmen?
« Reply #304 on: 11 Mar 2009, 20:04 »

I can't say I've heard from anyone who hasn't read the novel that really loved the movie.

I have, but to be fair the guy had a huge boner for 300.
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KvP

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Re: Will you watch these Watchmen?
« Reply #305 on: 11 Mar 2009, 20:18 »

EDIT: Also, sales for the graphic novel have already experienced a bump. Like, it's not "maybe it will happen." It already has happened.
Is it place on the Times fiction list? That graphic novel list was just created, and Watchmen's standing in it could be entirely relative. I wouldn't dispute that the movie has raised the book's salience and thus bumped sales somewhat, but I want to know just how much better the book is doing compared to before the movie came out (or a few weeks prior to the movie coming out, as I know plenty of people who made it a point to read the graphic novel shortly before seeing the film)

I mean this is one of those things, like Marley and Me being "the top romantic comedy in the country" when it came out, when really it was 4 or 5 or 6 out of all movies at the box office.
« Last Edit: 11 Mar 2009, 20:21 by KvP »
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Re: Will you watch these Watchmen?
« Reply #306 on: 11 Mar 2009, 20:33 »

Maybe someone who knows comics history can shine some light on how the popularity of Superman and Batman comics changed as their movies came out? Maybe I'm wrong.

The difference is that Superman and Batman are already components of mass popular culture. There are generations of people who have grown up with them as long-established characters. Very few people are going to be spurred by the release of a film into buying comics about either of these characters because they already know the story, or at least they think they do, so there's very little curiosity to prompt further reading. Watchmen, by contrast, is a pretty obscure comic - certainly a long way from being cultural short-hand the way Batman or Superman are. If I may present myself as an example: I haven't seen the Watchmen film, but all the talk about the comic that accompanied the film's release made me go out and buy a copy. By contrast, when I saw Batman Begins, and watched the section with the origin story, all I could think was "Yep, seen this before". There's no mystery to Batman. He's been a constant presence my entire life. I'm not compelled to go and find out more about him.
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KvP

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Re: Will you watch these Watchmen?
« Reply #307 on: 11 Mar 2009, 20:38 »

That's a fair point, but you're a nerd, as are we all by virtue of us even posting here. I wonder if your average Watchmen viewer experiences the same impulses. Moreover there will probably be a good portion of people who buy the novel but don't really read it, because of either the deliberate pace and unrelenting grimness of the book or the way that it was written (I know when I read it, it was only a short time before I became aggravated with Rorschach's clipped, broken inner monologues)
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Inlander

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Re: Will you watch these Watchmen?
« Reply #308 on: 11 Mar 2009, 22:16 »

Actually as far as comics go I'm pretty mainstream, inasmuch as I have almost zero interest in them. I own precisely three comic books/graphic novels/what-have-you, and all because my interest was piqued by movies: V for Vendetta, Watchmen, and Ghost World.

EDIT: Oh, and my grandmother's copy of the Tin-Pot Foreign General and the Old Iron Woman by Raymond Briggs, too.
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Johnny C

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Re: Will you watch these Watchmen?
« Reply #309 on: 11 Mar 2009, 22:26 »

Is it place on the Times fiction list?
It probably isn't at the top of the actual list but it's still selling more copies than any other paperback graphic novel and I sincerely doubt that it would be sitting on top of the list like Thriller for months on end.

ALSO HARRY: PICK UP FUN HOME BY ALISON BECHDEL AND PERSEPOLIS MAYBE?
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Inlander

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Re: Will you watch these Watchmen?
« Reply #310 on: 11 Mar 2009, 22:40 »

Actually right now I'm trying to find a copy of Jimmy Corrigan: the Smartest Kid on Earth, but nowhere around here seems to have it. Also I can't buy Persepolis for at least a year or two, otherwise people will just think I'm buying it 'cause they made a film out of it, and that's totally not cool, man.
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KvP

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Re: Will you watch these Watchmen?
« Reply #311 on: 11 Mar 2009, 22:48 »

Well like I said, the graphic novel list is new. How do I know that Watchmen wasn't already selling well consistently going back into times before the list was compiled? Changes in trends are easy to imagine but impossible to establish. If the movie had such a huge impact it probably would've pushed the comic onto the fiction list if it wasn't already, and that gives a fairly good indicator of the change in sales the movie brought. Maybe there isn't one that's measurable. That's why I asked.
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Hat

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Re: Will you watch these Watchmen?
« Reply #312 on: 12 Mar 2009, 06:07 »

Moreover there will probably be a good portion of people who buy the novel but don't really read it, because of either the deliberate pace and unrelenting grimness of the book or the way that it was written (I know when I read it, it was only a short time before I became aggravated with Rorschach's clipped, broken inner monologues)

I don't think this is really that true because people are pretty easily acclimatised to something like Rorschach's manner of speech by having been exposed to it through the movie format first in a more passive way. When engaging with the written form it becomes less dense and inaccessible as a result.

I haven't really talked to enough people who saw it without any knowledge of the book to gauge how much of a boost the book's popularity will get, but assuming I wasn't just really ripped and this is actually a really cool fun movie people can get into, I'd assume we're going to see a spike in interest of the book.

It was really awesome when I stumbled out of the cinema and eavesdropped on peoples reactions which were pretty much "DAMN MAN THAT MOVIE WAS FUCKED UP PEOPLE JUST GETTIN EXPLODED LIKE CRAZY" and "hmmm I think the hyper-stylistic violence betrayed Moore's narrative in a way but also reinforced the nature of the thematic wank wank wank wank wank wank" *strokes beard* and I just couldn't stop wondering out loud whether Dr Manhattan's dick was actually taller than I was on the IMAX screen.

Kind of glad I went really stoned the first time I saw it because I think it was a really fucking fun cool movie and I didn't have to overanalyse it, but now I can go back and really get into it and figure out if it was actually a good movie or not. If I'd gone sober first and decided I didn't like it it would have ruined that awesome fist pumping geekgasm shit like Rorschach in prison and the breakout.

Also there are a couple of little thematic things that aren't specifically important to the plot or the overall narrative that I'd never even picked up on reading the comic like Dr Manhattan simeltanously being an avatar of science and a god and how this is really the source of the conflict and how he was always going to have to leave Earth eventually.

Or I could just have been really stoned.
« Last Edit: 12 Mar 2009, 06:21 by Hat »
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lprkn

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Re: Will you watch these Watchmen?
« Reply #313 on: 12 Mar 2009, 08:08 »

I wish I did have some pre/post movie numbers on the graphic novel.

Maybe we're not giving people enough credit. I know that at my local comics place, sales of Sin City, the Dark Knight, the Killing Joke, 300, Spiderman, and even Superman went up due to their respective movies. Now you may say, "well these are mainstream, etc" or "it was just comics nerds buying their third copy" but I don't think comics have the stigma that they once did. A lot of people are willing to give comics a chance, I think.

Basically, anything that gets people into a shop these days is not really a bad thing. Just because they're frat boys/illiterate/douchenozzles/whatever doesn't matter too much to me. A comic reader is a comic reader.
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Tom

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Re: Will you watch these Watchmen?
« Reply #314 on: 12 Mar 2009, 14:24 »

Is it place on the Times fiction list?
It probably isn't at the top of the actual list but it's still selling more copies than any other paperback graphic novel and I sincerely doubt that it would be sitting on top of the list like Thriller for months on end.

ALSO HARRY: PICK UP FUN HOME BY ALISON BECHDEL AND PERSEPOLIS MAYBE?

Fun Home is really, really, really good.
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Johnny C

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Re: Will you watch these Watchmen?
« Reply #315 on: 13 Mar 2009, 02:03 »

Well like I said, the graphic novel list is new. How do I know that Watchmen wasn't already selling well consistently going back into times before the list was compiled?
I dunno man, how do I know I won't crap out gold tomorrow? This is a twenty year-old book, dude. Maybe we don't know for sure but we can probably take a pretty good guess.

Like I don't get why you're being SUPER ADAMANT that this old cult book isn't possibly experiencing a boost in sales related to its development as a major motion picture.
« Last Edit: 13 Mar 2009, 02:05 by Johnny C »
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David_Dovey

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Re: Will you watch these Watchmen?
« Reply #316 on: 13 Mar 2009, 02:36 »

I dunno why are you so adamant that it is oh BOOYAH
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Re: Will you watch these Watchmen?
« Reply #317 on: 13 Mar 2009, 13:02 »

So, anyone itchin' to see the Director's cut?
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Tom

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Re: Will you watch these Watchmen?
« Reply #318 on: 13 Mar 2009, 13:27 »

Not itching but it'll probably be the version I'll see.
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Jimmy the Squid

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Re: Will you watch these Watchmen?
« Reply #319 on: 14 Mar 2009, 06:37 »

I just came back from watching the film and I think it was ok. I honestly didn't mind the soundtrack, it all kind of felt fitting for me. The stylized violence was exactly what I expect from Snyder and I thought most of the actors did their jobs well (except for Veidt's crazy alternating accent and Silk Spectre I). The only thing that bugged me about the film was that I know that if I hadn't already read the graphic novel I really wouldn't have been able to follow it all that well. The story was good because I already knew it. It just wasn't told very well.
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Joseph

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Re: Will you watch these Watchmen?
« Reply #320 on: 14 Mar 2009, 10:19 »

The New York Times reported that even the trailer a year back boosted sales of the book.  I really don't see how the movie could not have this sort of effect.

Harry, listen to Johnny.  His recommendations are gold (though Jimmy Corrigan is also really amazing, if incredibly depressing).
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Surgoshan

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Re: Will you watch these Watchmen?
« Reply #321 on: 14 Mar 2009, 10:48 »

I've only recently started getting into comics.  A few issues of sandman, some buffy, stuff like that.  I would have gotten Watchmen eventually, because it's a seminal work.  I bought it back in November because the movie was coming out.
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KickThatBathProf

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Re: Will you watch these Watchmen?
« Reply #322 on: 15 Mar 2009, 08:35 »

ALSO HARRY: PICK UP FUN HOME BY ALISON BECHDEL AND PERSEPOLIS MAYBE?

Yes.  Also, Maus
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Joseph

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Re: Will you watch these Watchmen?
« Reply #323 on: 15 Mar 2009, 09:39 »

Or just read this thread.
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KvP

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Dimmukane

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Re: Will you watch these Watchmen?
« Reply #325 on: 16 Mar 2009, 12:15 »

I will save you this week, Zack Snyder!
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Johnny C

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Re: Will you watch these Watchmen?
« Reply #327 on: 18 Mar 2009, 00:38 »

oh my god that's the worst open letter i've ever read
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David_Dovey

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Re: Will you watch these Watchmen?
« Reply #328 on: 20 Mar 2009, 02:16 »

I have stated repeatedly that I really have no opinion on this film, in the sense that every criticism I have is cancelled out by something else. But one thing I can be sure about is that I have no intention of seeing it again, least of all in theaters. (I may watch the director's cut). Mostly because of it's overlength, but also because I am almost certain that if I did I would be far more mindful of the upsides than the downsides. Honestly I prefer not to hate this movie, and if I can't bring myself to like it then I would rather be neutral.
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Inlander

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Re: Will you watch these Watchmen?
« Reply #329 on: 20 Mar 2009, 22:07 »

And presumably that you will then produce a second generation of Watchmen-lite screenplays.
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Alex C

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Re: Will you watch these Watchmen?
« Reply #330 on: 21 Mar 2009, 12:01 »

The worst thing is the fact that he signs off with "Trust me. You'll come back, eventually. Just like Sally."

Incredibly tasteless rape reference aside, such statements always deeply anger me. It's condescending as hell.
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StaedlerMars

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Re: Will you watch these Watchmen?
« Reply #331 on: 24 Mar 2009, 18:39 »

Bad open letter aside, I'm going to say something that might upset some people.

First off, I loved the book. I read it before I saw the movie (like, before I knew there was a movie coming out, two or three years ago), but I'm going to come out and say this:

I thought the movie had a better ending than the book.

Unless there's something that I'm missing (someone please point it out to me if I am), Moore's ending was just overly complicated, without adding anything significant. *kind of spoiler* blaming Dr. Manhattan makes more sense, and is simpler.

The fact that the movie basically stuck to the comic book word by word, shot by shot, might make it a bad original movie, but you definitely can't say that it wasn't true to the watchmen. Also, I thought that the opening credits were really well done.
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Ozymandias

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Re: Will you watch these Watchmen?
« Reply #332 on: 24 Mar 2009, 18:42 »

How does the world uniting against an enemy they know to be invincible and know they can actually just blame the US for make more sense than an alien threat?
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Re: Will you watch these Watchmen?
« Reply #333 on: 24 Mar 2009, 19:08 »

Seeing it again the sex scene is fucking hilarious.
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Ozymandias

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Re: Will you watch these Watchmen?
« Reply #334 on: 24 Mar 2009, 19:10 »

It really, really is.
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Re: Will you watch these Watchmen?
« Reply #335 on: 24 Mar 2009, 20:18 »

How does the world uniting against an enemy they know to be invincible and know they can actually just blame the US for make more sense than an alien threat?

What would they do, just blame the US? In the movie Veidt didn't just destroy NYC. He also attacked other cities across the world (If I recall, Moscow too). This made Dr. Manhattan a common enemy to everyone.

Having Veidt obliterate an entire group of semi famous people after having them disappear for a couple of months, then creating a giant 'brain' which can't handle the basic teleportation system he's created so that it explodes and unleashes psychic waves? Then the rest of the world unites against an 'alien threat' that all it has done is teleport into new york city and exploded? You mean, all this race has managed to do is appear and then explode? Not much of a threat they can do anything about if you ask me. And a bit too complicated.

Now, if you're living under fear of an alien they're all familiar with - Dr. Manhattan - and have seen what he can do, and have seen that he has become slowly alienated from the rest of humanity. That's scary. This man that is indestructible. Best not piss him off, or give him any reason to be pissed off. See what the motherfucker can do?
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Re: Will you watch these Watchmen?
« Reply #336 on: 24 Mar 2009, 20:29 »

I went and saw this again with friends who hadn't seen it (but again had not read the comic). I didn't giggle as much though the parts I did before and I also found the soundtrack to be less annoying. (Maybe because I went to a different theater and it wasn't as loud??) Overall I still like it and I still prefer the ending of the movie to the book for the same reason as above.
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Re: Will you watch these Watchmen?
« Reply #337 on: 24 Mar 2009, 21:05 »

I still don't understand the hate for the alien-squid-ending. 
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Re: Will you watch these Watchmen?
« Reply #338 on: 25 Mar 2009, 01:30 »

Ben and I went and saw this last weekend, neither of us have read the comic (we figured we would watch the movie first, so that we were a bit more impartial, I guess?) and I liked it. The sex seen made me giggle and I can see why people didn't like it. I thought it dragged on a little, and the closeups of jiggly bottoms made the whole thing a little ridiculous, but hey, whatever.

Iwas telling Ben afterwards taht they changed the ending from the comic, and how there was a giant one-eyed tentacle monster thingy from what I had seen in discussion threads because of some psychic dealio (basically in those words, too. I am great at explaining things.) and he just looked at me blankly. That kinda sums up how I am feeling about the eminent tentacle monster part of the book. You guys aren't really helping with that.
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Re: Will you watch these Watchmen?
« Reply #339 on: 25 Mar 2009, 04:26 »

I still don't understand the hate for the alien-squid-ending. 

There's no hate. I didn't mind the ending in the book, in fact, I thought the fact that they went insane with fear when the alien squid landed was an awesome addition. I just thought the Dr. Manhattan ending was more believable.
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Re: Will you watch these Watchmen?
« Reply #340 on: 25 Mar 2009, 08:08 »

As a fan of both Watchmen and unnerving hardcore sex in feature films,
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Re: Will you watch these Watchmen?
« Reply #341 on: 25 Mar 2009, 12:08 »

Just the phrase Alien Squid Ending should be self explanatory in itself.

Actually that is what I tell anyone that seems outraged that they changed the ending without actually having read the book.
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Cartilage Head

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Re: Will you watch these Watchmen?
« Reply #342 on: 25 Mar 2009, 15:16 »

 I was honestly so shocked that I liked it so much. They were able to keep the feel of the comic almost perfectly, somehow. The didn't leave out anything absolutely crucial, although I did miss the incidental characters, and was a little miffed at how they did the psychiatrist. Otherwise, I couldn't believe how solid the acting and  just about everything else was. In my opinion, it is like an awesome extra thing in the book's mythology.

 Also I picked up Black Freighter today. Can't wait to see it (I had no idea there was an adaptation of Under the Hood in it.. fucking awesome.)
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Joseph

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Re: Will you watch these Watchmen?
« Reply #343 on: 25 Mar 2009, 15:33 »

Was it just me, or was the lady playing Sally Jupiter Jr. incapable of acting?
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Re: Will you watch these Watchmen?
« Reply #344 on: 25 Mar 2009, 15:49 »

Yeah, nobody in the Jupiter family is winning any awards. They were both pretty much the lowpoints of the film.
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lprkn

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Re: Will you watch these Watchmen?
« Reply #345 on: 25 Mar 2009, 18:31 »

Nixon's nose, Nixon's nose.
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Re: Will you watch these Watchmen?
« Reply #346 on: 26 Mar 2009, 00:45 »

I saw it again last night and was just even more convinced that the films ending made more sense than the comics. I'm ok with the genetic engineering aspect of the Giant Psychic Brain Squid, that makes total sense but the fact that there was no mention of psychics or any kind of superpowered humans other than Dr Manhatten anywhere in the books made it seem really unbelieveable. I mean I know a blue atomic man is kind of stretching things but at least it was introduced and made a part of the actual story. Moore wrote this really complex world full of compelling and interesting characters with everything being explained and suspension-of-disbeliefable and then fucked the entire thing by going "Oh and there are psychics too lol" at the end.
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Re: Will you watch these Watchmen?
« Reply #347 on: 26 Mar 2009, 00:47 »

Was it just me, or was the lady playing Sally Jupiter Jr. incapable of acting?
Heh, look at any non-fanboi review of the film and you'll see the same complaints. Honestly I thought she was better than Matthew Goode, but not by much.
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Re: Will you watch these Watchmen?
« Reply #348 on: 26 Mar 2009, 04:50 »

Nixon's nose, Nixon's nose.

Nixon's bill. It took over half his screen time for me to stop inadvertantly concentrating on his... snozz is maybe the best word for it.

Many parts of the film were good. Some bits were great! As a whole it's not a great film though. I'm not sure if it's even a good one. I don't think it's one people are going to talk about much next year.

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Re: Will you watch these Watchmen?
« Reply #349 on: 26 Mar 2009, 08:55 »

I think it was supposed to look kinda like a dick if you looked at it straight on.
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