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[MusicScribbles]

Yngwie Malmsteen is your new god. http://youtube.com/watch?v=67HpQObjQF4

[valley_parade]

I TAWWWT GAHD HOW TO PLAY GUITAHHHHR!

[Stefan Autsa]

I bet his parents were playing scrabble when he was named.

[Thrillho]

Fuck Yngwie. The guy is a fat has-been.

His kind of guitar playing may as well just be onstage masturbation. It's music without musicality.

Which just makes that video all the funnier.

[ScrambledGregs]

He should be in Mastodon because then they could jack off on stage together.

[thenosebleedkid]

Fuck Yngwie. The guy is a fat has-been.

His kind of guitar playing may as well just be onstage masturbation. It's music without musicality.

Which just makes that video all the funnier.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, but have you ever downloaded one of his album. I find that his videos and live perofrmances are very self indulgent but his albums to have some very well thought out musicality. That being said he has his own style one either digs or one does not dig.

[Hat]

Derek Sherinian is a pretty awesome keyboard player!

That is the only nice thing I am going to say about Yngwie Malsteem. Except that he's lost a lot of weight lately I guess.

[Thrillho]

Fuck Yngwie. The guy is a fat has-been.

His kind of guitar playing may as well just be onstage masturbation. It's music without musicality.

Which just makes that video all the funnier.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, but have you ever downloaded one of his album. I find that his videos and live perofrmances are very self indulgent but his albums to have some very well thought out musicality. That being said he has his own style one either digs or one does not dig.

Well, I did actually say that kind of guitar playing, not just Yngwie. I've heard albums by the likes of Vai and Satriani - who are apparently some of the more melodic and less self-indulgent (!) - and I just found it unlistenable. I've never listened to one of Yngwie's albums, and I think by this point I've closed my mind to it too much to give it a chance.

[Storm Rider]

I listen to a whole lot of instrumental guitarist stuff, but Yngwie is just fucking ridiculous. Listen to Satriani, Vai, Gilbert, or Eric Johnson instead. Or John Petrucci's solo album.

[thenosebleedkid]

Fuck Yngwie. The guy is a fat has-been.

His kind of guitar playing may as well just be onstage masturbation. It's music without musicality.

Which just makes that video all the funnier.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, but have you ever downloaded one of his album. I find that his videos and live perofrmances are very self indulgent but his albums to have some very well thought out musicality. That being said he has his own style one either digs or one does not dig.

Well, I did actually say that kind of guitar playing, not just Yngwie. I've heard albums by the likes of Vai and Satriani - who are apparently some of the more melodic and less self-indulgent (!) - and I just found it unlistenable. I've never listened to one of Yngwie's albums, and I think by this point I've closed my mind to it too much to give it a chance.

Well I think you've got a lot of movements mixed up there. But that's being quite pedantic. It's essentially guitarists guitar music.

[Thrillho]

...and I'm a guitarist.

Actually, I don't usually call myself a guitarist, because I play other instruments too and I don't see them as being vital to the mix - I feel instrumentalists should know their place, really.

Whilst they may be different genres, Vai, Satch, Yngwie can all be summed up - to the layman, I realise there are more subtle nuances and lots of merit to it - as shred-wank. Guitar playing with more speed than melody.

It's just that kind of guitar playing that I don't like, even out of context - such as Petrucci's solos in Dream Theater, except I've always felt that Dream Theater is mostly a band made of the different instrumental equivalents of what I've previously referred to. I've never been able to see the passion for the music, it's just felt like really fast scales put together arbitrarily.

[Hat]

Calling Satch shred-wank really shows you haven't heard much of his discography. Most of his stuff is impeccably written. Vai is pretty wanky at times, but a friend of mine showed me a few videos of him just really fucking rocking and it was awesome. I saw both these guys with G3 and they blew me away, as a guy who doesn't really give a shit about guitars at all, but when I saw Malsteem live, I was just really fucking bored whenever Sherinian wasn't playing.

I guess what I am saying is that just lumping all these guys together as "shred-wank" seems pretty ignorant of what they actually do.

[Thrillho]

Whilst they may be different genres, Vai, Satch, Yngwie can all be summed up - to the layman, I realise there are more subtle nuances and lots of merit to its shred-wank. Guitar playing with more speed than melody.

[Luke C]

He should be in any indie band because then they could jack off on stage together play poor guitar and be called brilliant.

[Hat]

Calling Satch shred-wank really shows you haven't heard much of his discography. Most of his stuff is impeccably written. Vai is pretty wanky at times, but a friend of mine showed me a few videos of him just really fucking rocking and it was awesome. I saw both these guys with G3 and they blew me away, as a guy who doesn't really give a shit about guitars at all, but when I saw Malsteem live, I was just really fucking bored whenever Sherinian wasn't playing.

I am as much of a layman as you can get when it comes to guitar music. Listening to one album and judging an artist entirely on it isn't being a layman, it's being lazy.

[thenosebleedkid]

...and I'm a guitarist.

Actually, I don't usually call myself a guitarist, because I play other instruments too and I don't see them as being vital to the mix - I feel instrumentalists should know their place, really.

Whilst they may be different genres, Vai, Satch, Yngwie can all be summed up - to the layman, I realise there are more subtle nuances and lots of merit to it - as shred-wank. Guitar playing with more speed than melody.

It's just that kind of guitar playing that I don't like, even out of context - such as Petrucci's solos in Dream Theater, except I've always felt that Dream Theater is mostly a band made of the different instrumental equivalents of what I've previously referred to. I've never been able to see the passion for the music, it's just felt like really fast scales put together arbitrarily.

How do they not know their place? I said it was guitar music for guitars, meaning all the listeners want to hear are GUITARS PLAYING MUSIC SPECIFICALLY WRITTEN FOR GUITARS!

Frankly I don't think you have the comprehension to understand what these guitarists, along with Dream Theatre, do. It's a genre created to showcase abilities, to show other guitarists the level of complexity that can be achieved. Sure there are songs and performances that are wanky, some that are too over the top, but that happens regardless of genre. There are a million arguments about people saying, 'it's not real guitar playing, give these guys some blues and they couldn't cope' but that's just wrong - people such as Vai, such as Ywgnie changed how people approach the instrument and how it is thought of. Calling that simply a wank, or too fast is simply ignorant - and as someone who is claiming some sort of educated basis for argument I think you don't have an idea what your talking about.

You don't like it leave it at that.

I'm not a fanboy of any of these artists, especially Dream Theatre but I think your mistaken.

Also, listen to For the Love of God by Vai, or Flying in a blue dream by Satriani - those are songs that are hardly fast at all that and showcase amazing musicality that doesn't rely on pure speed like you seem to think all these guitarists do.

[Thrillho]

...and I'm a guitarist.

Actually, I don't usually call myself a guitarist, because I play other instruments too and I don't see them as being vital to the mix - I feel instrumentalists should know their place, really.

Whilst they may be different genres, Vai, Satch, Yngwie can all be summed up - to the layman, I realise there are more subtle nuances and lots of merit to it - as shred-wank. Guitar playing with more speed than melody.

It's just that kind of guitar playing that I don't like, even out of context - such as Petrucci's solos in Dream Theater, except I've always felt that Dream Theater is mostly a band made of the different instrumental equivalents of what I've previously referred to. I've never been able to see the passion for the music, it's just felt like really fast scales put together arbitrarily.

How do they not know their place? I said it was guitar music for guitars, meaning all the listeners want to hear are GUITARS PLAYING MUSIC SPECIFICALLY WRITTEN FOR GUITARS!

Good point.

Frankly I don't think you have the comprehension to understand what these guitarists, along with Dream Theatre, do. It's a genre created to showcase abilities, to show other guitarists the level of complexity that can be achieved. Sure there are songs and performances that are wanky, some that are too over the top, but that happens regardless of genre. There are a million arguments about people saying, 'it's not real guitar playing, give these guys some blues and they couldn't cope' but that's just wrong - people such as Vai, such as Ywgnie changed how people approach the instrument and how it is thought of. Calling that simply a wank, or too fast is simply ignorant - and as someone who is claiming some sort of educated basis for argument I think you don't have an idea what your talking about.

I didn't say 'give these guys some blues and they couldn't cope.' I know there are people that have said that, but I'm not one of them. I always felt that was a slightly boneheaded argument. But then many people, such as yourself, could feel that about mine for the preceding discussion.

I have never once intentionally downplayed the ability of these guys. They are undeniably phenomenal musicians. But the fact that the music is about how talented they are is what annoys me. I listen to a lot of self-indulgent tripe, but none of it is by people who are at such a high level of musicianship; it's more that it feels like that's the kind of music they want to make, it's what they have the passion for, whereas Yngwie and the like - aside from notable exceptions with Satriani and Vai - I don't feel that.

You don't like it leave it at that.

I'm not a fanboy of any of these artists, especially Dream Theatre but I think your mistaken.

Also, listen to For the Love of God by Vai, or Flying in a blue dream by Satriani - those are songs that are hardly fast at all that and showcase amazing musicality that doesn't rely on pure speed like you seem to think all these guitarists do.

I just think it's a whole genre I'm just never going to be able to get into; I'll probably never understand it.

[thenosebleedkid]

Saying you don't 'understand' it has always been a condescending argument that I try and steer away from. Many people, I find, do not like the music because they get sick of hearing the 'same' thing - it's simply that they don't care enough, or are nto interested enough, to hear the differences in songs.

But fair enough, good points and well made.

[Thrillho]

No condescension was intentional. It's the word I'd use. I don't think it's me not liking it, but I don't like enough to listen to it. It really is that I just don't get it.

[MadassAlex]

Downplaying the musical skills of virtuosos is the height of folly in most cases.

Most shredders recognise both the musical and technical artistry of the old blues players and the likes of Jimmy Page, Tony Iommi and that blues-rock lot from the 60s and 70s, so it really does boggle me how some people have to insist that some musicians are less valid in their expression than others.

[Aimless]

I've always seen the things you find distasteful in these artists' work as being part clowning around and a large part fan-service, rather than wanking. They're all phenomenal musicians, and I think their love for (and understanding of) the MUSIC shows in most of their live performances, in the solos, in the improvised stuff (although I'm sure much of what seems improvised is carefully rehearsed).

I guess this style of playing doesn't bother me too much because I've always felt a musician and his work should be closely associated, that the work should reflect the musician rather than some ideal song in the heavens or something.

But with all that said, while I can appreciate Malmsteen's skill with the guitar, I find his music utterly unappealing.

[pilsner]

So you seriously don't like Black Star?

Yowza.  Thems are high standards.

[Aimless]

Black Star is pretty much the only one I can tolerate!

[thenosebleedkid]

Black star bores me.

On the other hand - evil eye just rules

[rhinohelicopter]

I'm just going to say that all of these guys (Joe Satriani, Steve Vai, Yngwie Malmsteen) are hacks.  They're musical philosophies seem to be "Fuck chords, we can jerk off for two hours and some dumbasses without taste will stand there at the stage with their mouths wide open to drink it up!"  They have no real songs; just musical wankery. 

[David_Dovey]

Well, thank you for bringing an original and well thought out opinion to this thread!

[Thrillho]

Looks like me and nosebleedkid were wasting our time having a thought-out debate when the thread was just waiting for this super-intelligent reply...

I'm just going to say that all of these guys (Joe Satriani, Steve Vai, Yngwie Malmsteen) are hacks.  They're musical philosophies seem to be "Fuck chords, we can jerk off for two hours and some dumbasses without taste will stand there at the stage with their mouths wide open to drink it up!"  They have no real songs; just musical wankery. 

[Storm Rider]

Besides, if you actually knew anything about the music these guys make you'd know that they do use chords pretty frequently. And why exactly are chords more tasteful? I'm not quite sure how yet another band using a three chord riff over and over is somehow better than somebody who tries to do something a little more complicated.

[Kai]

[Aimless]

But what about

[Kai]

No see that's okay

Because Pat Metheney is the SHIT

[thenosebleedkid]

Pat Metheney is boring! Not enough of the brutal gains and grim sweep licks. Doesn't he know that to play well you've gotta start each phrase with a minor lydian arpeggio 

[rhinohelicopter]

Besides, if you actually knew anything about the music these guys make you'd know that they do use chords pretty frequently. And why exactly are chords more tasteful? I'm not quite sure how yet another band using a three chord riff over and over is somehow better than somebody who tries to do something a little more complicated.

They used to play a G3 dvd at this guitar store I frequented and it was pretty much just noodling and tapping.  I'm not saying that these guys don't have skill.  They just use a very limited portion of it.  It's beyond boring.  It's an entirely different realm of boredom.  And I'm not saying that using chords is more "tasteful" necessarily but, that I just don't want to hear you noodle for two hours straight.  It's like Dragon Force.  They have one song because they have decided to use a very small amount of their skills.

[RadioElectric]

Some of Vai's early work with Zappa was pretty good.

If you want an amazing guitar virtuoso look no further than Eric Johnson...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=JV2tQJ19GvA

They took the Austin City Limits one down, which is cooler (if for the jacket alone) but this should still be a good demonstration.

EDIT: Found the far superior ACL version.

[thenosebleedkid]

The Zappa comment is definately a good one. Listen to My guitar wants to kill your mamma and tell me they've got limited skill!

And if artists such as Vai or Malmsteen have 'limited' skill than I don't know who your using for as your measuring stick. My personal opinion is they have more skill than most, but they choose to apply it in a very polarising way.

Most people don't realise, when your each ac ertain skill level, you have to try new things, otherwise you gte bored. Most do not reach this level, people like Vai and Satriani (especially at the beginning of their career) have - they had to start doing something that allowed them to push themselves.

[rhinohelicopter]

Goddammit, you're not getting it.  My problem is that they have a very wide range of skill and decide to use very little of it.  They use limited techniques and it all ends up sounding the same.

[rhinohelicopter]

Now you if want to hear somebody who has originality in their tapping, listen to the lead guitarist from Minus the Bear.  All this guy does in this band pretty much is tap, but he does bass lines and melody.  It's super complex without being amusical.  This is what Vai, Malmsteen and Satriani could do if they really wanted to.  This is originality in tapping, not just an extension of hair-metal wankery.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dllO08Wkx1o&mode=related&search=

[Krulla]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFYhZ8vMpRU

A CHALLENGER APPEARS. That's guitar wankery, but, instead of just being a fat swedish dude wanking off his extreme technical talent while displaying no musicianship whatsoever, this is actual music.

Man, I hate Yngwie Malmsteen. Seriously. I mean, what kind of douchebag writes a goddamn symphony around his guitar solos? Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. Go join a band or something, and make music, instead of telling yourself anyone gives a damn about your pointless wankery.

EDIT; Plus, the dude in the video I linked is playing his solo in front of a mother bleeping castle. How cool is that shit.

[thenosebleedkid]

Now you if want to hear somebody who has originality in their tapping, listen to the lead guitarist from Minus the Bear.  All this guy does in this band pretty much is tap, but he does bass lines and melody.  It's super complex without being amusical.  This is what Vai, Malmsteen and Satriani could do if they really wanted to.  This is originality in tapping, not just an extension of hair-metal wankery.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dllO08Wkx1o&mode=related&search=

So basically he's like a shit jean baulin?

Please look up vai's video with the 3 necked guitar, I think the looping + 2 melody liens at one, one on a fretless guitar, is pretty original and special, much more so than someone who is ripping off the chapman stick 30 years too late.

[Thrillho]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFYhZ8vMpRU

A CHALLENGER APPEARS. That's guitar wankery, but, instead of just being a fat swedish dude wanking off his extreme technical talent while displaying no musicianship whatsoever, this is actual music.

Man, I hate Yngwie Malmsteen. Seriously. I mean, what kind of douchebag writes a goddamn symphony around his guitar solos? Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. Go join a band or something, and make music, instead of telling yourself anyone gives a damn about your pointless wankery.

EDIT; Plus, the dude in the video I linked is playing his solo in front of a mother bleeping castle. How cool is that shit.

For fuck's sake. We have covered this area of 'wah wah wah they're shit' discussion. Think of something original to contribute instead of just saying he's wank, or fuck off.

[Krulla]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFYhZ8vMpRU

A CHALLENGER APPEARS. That's guitar wankery, but, instead of just being a fat swedish dude wanking off his extreme technical talent while displaying no musicianship whatsoever, this is actual music.

Man, I hate Yngwie Malmsteen. Seriously. I mean, what kind of douchebag writes a goddamn symphony around his guitar solos? Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. Go join a band or something, and make music, instead of telling yourself anyone gives a damn about your pointless wankery.

EDIT; Plus, the dude in the video I linked is playing his solo in front of a mother bleeping castle. How cool is that shit.

For fuck's sake. We have covered this area of 'wah wah wah they're shit' discussion. Think of something original to contribute instead of just saying he's wank, or fuck off.

I sincerely apologize for this oversight.

Since I only just registered last night, I shall endeavor to search every possible thread that may have come up discussing a subject before ever making a post again.

Once again, I sincerely apologize. Because it would surely be the first time ever in the history of this forum, nay, forums in general, and intellectual discourse, that anyone expressed a opinion that has been brought up by anyone at a past date.

In addition, I was not aware that being original was a prerequisite for posting in this esteemed forum. I was under the stupid, moronic even, impression that the "Music talk" forum was intended to act as a venue for expressing one's opinion of music in general. However, it seems that the point of this forum is to be original. I shall endeavor to do so in the future.

Fuck off. Doesn't the subtitle say "Don't be a hipster snob"?

[Thrillho]

Maybe my phrasing was poor.

But you basically said the exact same thing I had said earlier - they're wank, they just solo, that's pointless - and if you'd read earlier you'd see that this has been covered. It's not as simple as that. You also gave little justification.

And what does being a hipster snob have to do with anything? I'm one of the least hip people on my forum. I forget, is my avatar still Ashlee Simpson?

[Krulla]

Maybe my phrasing was poor.

But you basically said the exact same thing I had said earlier - they're wank, they just solo, that's pointless - and if you'd read earlier you'd see that this has been covered. It's not as simple as that. You also gave little justification.

And what does being a hipster snob have to do with anything? I'm one of the least hip people on my forum. I forget, is my avatar still Ashlee Simpson?

See, what you should have done in this situation is to think "hey, cool, this dude agrees with me", and even stated so in a post.

Most forum threads would be very short if people wouldn't share they're thoughts if someone else had stated a similar view earlier in the thread.

[Thrillho]

No, I don't agree with you. My earlier posts did, but my later ones don't. Nosebleedkid convinced me that this kind of music has its place, and I realised what I a dick I looked - and, indeed, look, but for different reasons - for just coming in and saying 'it's shit. Bye!'

[Hat]

Krulla, stop being shit at sarcasm. Just stop it. I am actually physically ill from reading your posts.

Damnit this thread was so close to becoming the ridiculous guitars thread.

[Krulla]

No, I don't agree with you. My earlier posts did, but my later ones don't. Nosebleedkid convinced me that this kind of music has its place, and I realised what I a dick I looked - and, indeed, look, but for different reasons - for just coming in and saying 'it's shit. Bye!'

Oh, I think I misunderstood you a bit then.

To clarify, I love "shredding", as most people call it, but I love it when it fits the music, not when the music is made to fit the shredding.

Krulla, stop being shit at sarcasm. Just stop it. I am actually physically ill from reading your posts.

Thanks.

[thenosebleedkid]

Is there something about virtuoso's music that makes shredding not become appropriate?

I mean seriously dude, think through your argument!

Plus it's already been covered, if you don't appreciate people pushing their own musical boundaries to get over the 50 year old pentatonic box that dominates rock guitar than please, give us a good reason why we should remain in the prehistoric guitar age.

Also the youtube videos are terrible comarisons, they are created tos how off, many times to people who get off on the 'wankery'. however, if you listen to many albums you'll find a great lot of skill at composition and melody that doesn't rely on shredding.

However judging by your previous sposts, your too bull headed to do anything but moan!

[Krulla]

I think you entirely missed my point.

I love shredding. Hell, I'm in a freaking power metal band. Power metal is, for those unaware, basically a drummer, keyboard player, bassist, and then a guitarist wanking to his heart's content. An example of power metal would be Dragonforce, the kings of over the top shredding.

What I don't like it is when the shredding becomes the entire reason for the music's existance, and the only main focus of the music becomes the guitarist's extreme technical talent. The shredding is part of the music, and a important one at that, but it should not BE the music.

[Hat]

I don't understand, you hold your band up as an example of music that is shredding without being needless, mindless wank, and then you compare said band to Dragonforce?

I think we have reached what they call in the classics, an "Imp Arse eh"

Just a tip, and this goes to ANY new poster on the music board, because I have seen this happen too much lately.

As a general rule, we know what we are talking about when it comes to music

There is no point assuming we haven't heard of "power metal" (Of which Dragonforce is a fucking godawful example by the way), or the "latest indie band 'the Arcade Fire' ". Basically, just assume that unless you are plugging a shitty local band, we know exactly band or genre you are talking about. (Please don't just start plugging shitty local bands either)

In fact, if you want to see another newbie make the same mistakes you have, (with more hilarious results, I might add) look for the Dream Theater/Mars Volta/Sounds of Animals Fighting thread from a while back (but please do not make a post in it)

I'm trying to be helpful here.

[Storm Rider]

Yeah, just about the only band worse at pointless noodling than Yngwie is Dragonforce.