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[camelpimp]

I should really stop putting the body of my post in the subject line.

Just sayin'.

[3Z3VH]

Because the Official Hipsters' Code of Conduct expressly forbids any non-analogue recording devices or media.

Seriously, don't disobey the OHCC, there are dire consequences !

[SeanBateman]

You guys are dumb and this thread is dumb and jesus christ this is a stupid opinion you dummies.

[3Z3VH]

In some ways I agree Tommy, in other ways I disagree.

The problem with Records is their method of transferring that analogue data to sound again.  Even the slightest speck of dust could ruin the whole experience.  Also, recording a record does not 100% mirror the sound wave you recorded.  The substrate you are cutting into is prone to warping, cracking, and expansion and contraction all causing distortion to the original recording.

Yes, CDs are compressed, and therefore, inherently flawed if you are looking for pure sound.  The solution to this is simply sampling more often.  I guess my question to you is, how do you feel about Vinyl vs DVD Audio ?  I guarantee on any given sound system, DVD Audio with it's insane sample rate, would blow the doors off of even a pristine piece of vinyl.

So, while I do agree, that in a straight standard bitrate CDAudio vs a pristine Vinyl recording, the Vinyl wins by a long shot, but keeping vinyl in that condition is not practical for what you do gain.

Also, if you are playing the music through anything costing less than $2000, you aren't gaining anything by listening to Vinyl.  I prefer my music a bit more... portable.

[a pack of wolves]

The thing about CDs though is that they're so cheap to produce in short runs which makes it a lot easier to put together a DIY release. Far cheaper than vinyl and more widely-accessible than MP3 (yes, there really are still a lot of people who don't own a computer to play music on). So if you don't want the hassle of having to release on multiple formats CD is definitely the best route. Although technically it might suck a bit when you look at the practicalities of doing a release CD has many merits.

Or you could just not give a shit if comparatively few people actually have the equipment to listen to your music and release a tape to be dead kvlt and that.

[ALoveSupreme]

Firstly, if you've ever actually heard the difference between a CD and a record, it is instantly apparent why someone who enjoys hearing particular types of music would prefer the latter. Music is essentially vibrations, so encoding the sound onto a digital format is always going to cause something to be lost in translation. A digital recording of sound is actually a series of samples at a certain rate, which means that by definition it is not a complete sound wave. A vinyl record has a groove carved into it that mirrors the original sound's waveform. This means that no information is lost. That is only one reason for disliking the compact disc though.

The only thing I never understood about this argument is that wouldn't the original recording have to be done in analogue as well?  If a recording is done on some form of digital recording, as most bands do (at least, most bands that most people listen to), wouldn't reformatting to an analogue sound format actually cause something to be lost in translation as far as sound quality goes?  I may not be wording that the best way possible, but I think the question is understandable.

The main issue I have with CDs is that they made artists think that 80 minutes is an acceptable length of time for an album. I debate this furiously. There are very few albums that need 80 minutes to make a point. In the era of vinyl, artists were forced to trim albums of weaker songs or filler material. With CDs, they could happily include all the crap they wanted and then some. The ultimate result of this was that record labels decided that since you were getting digital sound quality and longer records, they could charge twice as much money as they had before. Then twice as much again. Essentially, the compact disc became the medium through which the Major Record Labels made buying music such an expensive affair.

I had never thought about this argument, however.  Brilliant.

[Inlander]

However, if you consider that we're approaching an age in which the only limitation on musical quantity is the number of gigabytes of storage space on the listener's electronic device of choice, 80 minutes starts to look positively ascetic.

[Johnny C]

The only thing I never understood about this argument is that wouldn't the original recording have to be done in analogue as well?  If a recording is done on some form of digital recording, as most bands do (at least, most bands that most people listen to), wouldn't reformatting to an analogue sound format actually cause something to be lost in translation as far as sound quality goes?

The obvious solution is to record to analogue equipment.

[3Z3VH]

The only thing I never understood about this argument is that wouldn't the original recording have to be done in analogue as well?  If a recording is done on some form of digital recording, as most bands do (at least, most bands that most people listen to), wouldn't reformatting to an analogue sound format actually cause something to be lost in translation as far as sound quality goes?  I may not be wording that the best way possible, but I think the question is understandable.

Most digital recording (unless done on the cheap) is done at an extremely high sample rate, which cannot be put on a CD due to format restrictions.

[3Z3VH]

One recording I am dying to get on Vinyl is the original pressing of Aphex Twin's 'Selected Ambient Works, Vol II'... it has 2 songs on it I can't find in a decent sample rate, because they WEREN'T on the CD !

[jeph]

I haven't bought an actual CD in probably 2 years. I dislike CDs because they take up so much goddamned space. My hearing is too fucked up to realistically care about sound quality (anything over 192kbps sounds alike to me), so the convenience, ease of backup and transport, and versatility of mp3s makes it a non-decision. Hell, the only reason I even have CD-Rs anymore is so i can burn stuff to play in the car or give to friends who can't afford fancy cable internets.

[ScrambledGregs]

I like vinyl for a really odd reason: it surprises me, more often than not. 90% of the time when I buy music it's on vinyl from my local record shop. They don't have the largest vinyl section in the world, and what they do have is often seemingly random--for instance, they have 4 copies of Come On Pilgrim but nothing else by the Pixies; they have get in vinyl but when I buy it I never see it stocked again; they rarely have 'new' vinyl releases on release date; and so on.

However, this means that I frequently go there and take a chance on an album I know little to nothing about other than it was a band I had read about somewhere and how they were maybe any good. Occasionally I'm disappointed--Terrestrial Tones, ugh--but more often I am pleasantly surprised by albums I vaguely recognize. I acquired stuff by Do Make Say Think and The Mountain Goats through this gambling system, and I think it's a fine way of discovering music.

[3Z3VH]

I haven't bought an actual CD in probably 2 years. I dislike CDs because they take up so much goddamned space. My hearing is too fucked up to realistically care about sound quality (anything over 192kbps sounds alike to me), so the convenience, ease of backup and transport, and versatility of mp3s makes it a non-decision. Hell, the only reason I even have CD-Rs anymore is so i can burn stuff to play in the car or give to friends who can't afford fancy cable internets.

On any sound system that doesn't cost a fortune, 192k is just about the limit of it's audio range.  You don't start getting into audio detail better than that unless you are pushing at least 120W/Speaker, have a VERY decent sub, and an audio processor that does auto-calibration.  I am speaking in Home Theatre terms, though, since that is where my audio experience comes from.

[muteKi]

I recall an episode of Everybody Loves Raymond that had an argument of sorts between jazz CDs and jazz records. An old jazz record usually has charm well over that of a CD. The crackles and hisses to me make me think of a cozy, warm fire or something, which is perfect for more mellow recordings especially. Louder and more uptempo songs have volume above the level of this hissing and crackling, so it's not a huge issue. It also emphasizes the mid to low end of the audio spectrum, which is where most jazz instruments are.

I happened to have more records at home than CDs, which were all from the 70s. I prefer CDs to vinyl because the fidelity of a CD is longer-lasting. That said, most of my favorite CDs seem to have irreparable skips and stuff.

[valley_parade]

I love having records, but I go through needles on record players so fast that it's almost not worth it for me.

I GUESS WHAT I AM SAYING IS THAT CDS ARE OKAY WITH ME, BUT I MUCH PREFER 128k mp3.

[TheFuriousWombat]

I like vinyl for a really odd reason: it surprises me, more often than not. 90% of the time when I buy music it's on vinyl from my local record shop. They don't have the largest vinyl section in the world, and what they do have is often seemingly random--for instance, they have 4 copies of Come On Pilgrim but nothing else by the Pixies; they have get in vinyl but when I buy it I never see it stocked again; they rarely have 'new' vinyl releases on release date; and so on.

However, this means that I frequently go there and take a chance on an album I know little to nothing about other than it was a band I had read about somewhere and how they were maybe any good. Occasionally I'm disappointed--Terrestrial Tones, ugh--but more often I am pleasantly surprised by albums I vaguely recognize. I acquired stuff by Do Make Say Think and The Mountain Goats through this gambling system, and I think it's a fine way of discovering music.

I'm the same way. The local record store near my house is actually one of the largest independent record stores in the country (in terms of collection size) so it's a place I can and do spend dozens of hours in. I've sifted through a lot of crap and a lot of stuff I would never want on vinyl but have found some amazing things in the process. The long out of print 'Besides' EP by Do Make Say Think, for example, was in a large stack of 'D' records for only $2. The out of print S/T album by Broken Social Scene was there, new, for $10. The exceptionally limited 'Home Ruckus' vinyl only album by Tarentel was there for $15, also new. I personally love records. I like the size, I love the sleeves/artwork (my copy of In the Aeoroplane Over the Sea on vinyl is simply gorgeous), I truly do think it sounds better in most situations and, often, vinyls actually cost less than CDs these days. I generally have MP3s of most songs and if I want the physical album, I'll buy it on vinyl. I haven't bought a CD in years. I also do as Tommy mentioned, listening to my ipod on the go/in the car and listening to vinyl (if I have what I want to hear on vinyl) at home. Both the vinyl and digital formats obviously have their merits but vinyl will always be the format I'll favor.

[SleeperCylon]

I'll go through the logical steps, from the viewpoint of a hipster.

1.  I don't have a lot of money.                                                     -Premise
2.  CDs cost a lot of money.                                                           -Premise
3.  I can't afford a lot of CDs.                                                        -Deduction from 1 and 2
4.  Downloading because you don't want to pay would be just theft.     -Premise
5.  I rock, and have principles.                                                       -Premise
6.  If I was just committing theft, I wouldn't have principles.                -Premise
7.  I am not committing theft.                                                        -If A --> -B, B ---> -A.  B, thus not A (Cognitive dissonance step)
8.  I am downloading music.                                                          -Premise
9.  If I was rebelling against record companies, I would dowload music.  -Induction
10.  I download music because I'm rebelling.                                      -Induction 8 and 9
11.  People who do not download music are not rebelling.                   -If A --> B, then -B --> -A.  (Deduction from 9)
12.  You are not downloading music.                                                -Premise
13.  You are not rebelling.                                                               -Deduction from 11 and 12
14.  People who have principles rebel.                                               -Induction from 9
15.  People who rock have principles.                                                -Induction from 5
16.  You suck.                                                                               -Deduction from 13, 14, 15

[supersheep]

That's not formal logic. FAIL.

[3Z3VH]

I'll go through the logical steps, from the viewpoint of a hipster.

Now I'm curious. What's the relevance of this to the subject at hand?

Because it's cool !  And hipsters are cool !  Right ?

[Spinless]

Well, technically, it IS slightly relevant because the discussion included mp3s as a media format. His post also mentioned reasons not to buy CDs.
Who cares if it's ontopic as long as there's an excuse to post something mildly amusing?
I give the post 3 gold stars out of a possibe 5.

[3Z3VH]

Incentive... or Intent ?

[KvP]

One recording I am dying to get on Vinyl is the original pressing of Aphex Twin's 'Selected Ambient Works, Vol II'... it has 2 songs on it I can't find in a decent sample rate, because they WEREN'T on the CD !

You and me both.

[McTaggart]

Fuck you all I love cds. They're the most convenient format for me. Fuck mp3s, I don't have the bandwidth for that and I like to have the artwork. Fuck records they're a bitch to move around and getting a record player is being more effort than it's going to be worth. Fuck tapes because, umm, actually tapes are pretty good.

[3Z3VH]

The new ID3 standard allows you to embed abum art into the MP3.

[Xukuth]

Firstly, if you've ever actually heard the difference between a CD and a record, it is instantly apparent why someone who enjoys hearing particular types of music would prefer the latter. Music is essentially vibrations, so encoding the sound onto a digital format is always going to cause something to be lost in translation. A digital recording of sound is actually a series of samples at a certain rate, which means that by definition it is not a complete sound wave. A vinyl record has a groove carved into it that mirrors the original sound's waveform. This means that no information is lost. That is only one reason for disliking the compact disc though.

Uh, you're aware that every time you listen to a vinyl record you're changing the information stored on it, right?

[3Z3VH]

Hehe, Go Tommy

[thenosebleedkid]

CD's, to me, are the best juncture of portability, sound quality, storage, robustness, affordability and accessability. Sure there may be tiny variations that some pople might actually here between vinyl and CD's, but there have been numerous studies done to show that blindfolded even the most prestigious sound engineers cannot tell the difference on 95% of tracks. Most of the difference is psychological perception.

Cd's are great, I can have 100 in a space I could have 10 vinyl's, they stack easily. I am actually enjoying longer CD's, the notion that 80 minutes is 'too long' is really silly. Some bands might not need it, for sure, but wouldn't you rather more for your money? Sometimes it actually allows a more complex, more nitense, and more lengthy album progression. This is of course only utilised sometimes.

I'm also sure the stores enjoy CD's more, they are more robust and easier to stack, they present better and don't go insane with weather changes (espcially in hotter countries).

Just IMO and IME!

[McTaggart]

The new ID3 standard allows you to embed abum art into the MP3.

And that does what good to anyone? Great now I can see a faint little picture on this tiny little screen. Great now my media player is taking up even more screen real estate. Great now all my mp3s are 160kbs bigger. I still can't read the liner notes, hold the case, feel the sort of embossed bit or show off my collection.

[Spinless]

Great now my media player is taking up even more screen real estate. Great now all my mp3s are 160kbs bigger.

Wait, THAT is what done it?! That's awesome, I can just dlete my album artwork and fit double the music on my mp3 player. This news makes me happy.

[ALoveSupreme]

I recall an episode of Everybody Loves Raymond that had an argument of sorts between jazz CDs and jazz records. An old jazz record usually has charm well over that of a CD. The crackles and hisses to me make me think of a cozy, warm fire or something, which is perfect for more mellow recordings especially. Louder and more uptempo songs have volume above the level of this hissing and crackling, so it's not a huge issue. It also emphasizes the mid to low end of the audio spectrum, which is where most jazz instruments are.

Agreed with this 100%

I sort of missed the boat on responding to the responses of my earlier post, but that's all pretty much how I have always felt.  If it isn't recorded analogue the purchaser of vinyl is deluding themselves.

I do, however, have a favorite pastime in digging through thrift store record collections.  The more they destroy my allergies and induce sneezing with all the dust collected the better!   

[camelpimp]

I find it interesting that tapes only enter this conversation once. This might because they SUCK. (I do not remember them fondly) Agree/Disagree?

[amok]

I find it interesting that tapes only enter this conversation once. This might because they SUCK. (I do not remember them fondly) Agree/Disagree?

Yeah, pretty much.

[mfpole]

My dad has some good stuff on tape but its such crappy quality its not even worth bothering with it. I am talking about tapes that are probably getting to be 20 years old now, so maybe thats why they sound so bad.

[Kai]

Unless I am in my room tapes are the only way I can listen to music.

They are my best fwends.

[bryanthelion]

I like c.ds. The only way I find new bands is by my friends burning them on c.ds, Because if I download them, they'll get lossed in the plethora of other bands I like. I wasnt in the record era, So I wouldnt be able to talk about that.

Also, I like aligning all the c.d cases up to show my variety of music.

[E. Spaceman]

oh man, sigquote

[Hobbs]

Wow people are still serious about vinyl. You learn something new every day.

I buy most of my music in CD form, for no other reason than the fact that artists get more royalties from cds than they do from iTMS and the like. After I buy a CD the very first thing I do is rip 192kbps mp3s of that CD and add them to my iTunes library (and at some point, my iPod). After that I stick the CD on the rack and it never gets used again.

[a pack of wolves]

Cd's are great, I can have 100 in a space I could have 10 vinyl's, they stack easily. I am actually enjoying longer CD's, the notion that 80 minutes is 'too long' is really silly. Some bands might not need it, for sure, but wouldn't you rather more for your money? Sometimes it actually allows a more complex, more nitense, and more lengthy album progression. This is of course only utilised sometimes.

On the other hand it encourages people to go on for as long as the medium will allow, which can mean poor editing and bloated, unwieldy albums. It's like cooking, whenever I make a meal I tend to cook as much as the pans will hold. I don't mean to, I just end up filling the medium. Vinyl also has the separation of sides. I find 'Life Yr Skinny Fists...' doesn't work nearly as well on CD since the separation between each track found on the vinyl version massively enhances the piece.

As for tapes, they're still great. My band just did a split tour tape. Two bands, 14 songs, £1 (that's not even losing money and includes the cost of printing the art and buying stamps to put the bandnames on). Tapes are awesome.

[Johnny C]

Also, I like aligning all the c.d cases up to show my variety of music.

This sentence is the mind-killer.

[bryanthelion]

What did I say that was so siggy worthy?

Were I live (ohio) there are no hipsters. People see a Rilo Kiley c.d and say "Is that a british band?"

[Emaline]

Tapes have a certain nostalgic quality. Records sound amazing. Cds are ok, but an a bit of a pain to carry around. Mp3s sound nice, and are easy to carry.

I wasnt in the record era, So I wouldnt be able to talk about that.

Ummm.....What? I'm 19. Not exactly "record era" age, but I love records, and could talk about them. I don't understand what you mean.

Were I live (ohio) there are no hipsters. People see a Rilo Kiley c.d and say "Is that a british band?"

Also, this phrase is so amazingly hilarious that I don't know what to say. I lived in Ohio. Cleveland to be exact. Everyone I met was such a hipster. My roommate being the biggest hipster ever. Here is his myspace. Nice guy, but still a hipster.

[Ben yayayayayayayay]

THE POINT HE WAS MAKING IS AMERICANS HAVE NEVER BEFORE HEARD BRITISH MUSIC, THEREFORE ALL UNKNOWN BANDS ARE FROM BRITAIN

c.d c.d c.d c.d c.d c.d c.d cool it kinda looks like an emoticon after a while

[bryanthelion]

Oh, Im so sorry I dont live in cleaveland and dont share your hipster friends! With my experience with people, they listen to Q104, christian rock, or disney music.

I love how random people are attacking me.

Oh, that last sentence was nearly as good.

Do you have a blog I can subscribe to Sir?

uhh you could, but no.

[Emaline]

I'm not attacking you, just pointing out the bizarreness of your statements.

You can't make a broad statement like "there are hipsters in Ohio!!!!" It just doesn't make sense.

[bryanthelion]

Okay, you're right.

My last post kind of cleared it up..

Anyway,

Records are cool and all. I prefer cassettes, just so I can make cassette tape mummies!

[IronOxide]

I do not always hear the difference of sound quality between my 192, V0, or even FLAC rips of albums, but where I do see the difference is when I make mixes. The program that our glorious friend Emilio showed me (Mixmeister) modifies the speed of tracks that I put on, and you can definitely hear gaps in the sound on lower bitrate MP3s that are much less prevalent on less lossy rips of the albums.

[ALoveSupreme]

Cassette players are great in cars, because if you get bored of your tapes or lose all of them in your car that has turned into a garbage can, you can easily plug your mp3 player in with the $2 adaptor that you found in a thrift store.  This is much more convenient than those damned $40 radio adapters you have to buy if you have a dumb CD player in your car. 

CDs lose again.

[McTaggart]

Or you could dub your music onto tapes and listen to them in the car and KEEP YOUR GODDAMN CAR TIDY FOR FUCKS SAKE.

[supertankguy]

On any sound system that doesn't cost a fortune, 192k is just about the limit of it's audio range.  You don't start getting into audio detail better than that unless you are pushing at least 120W/Speaker.

That doesn't make any sense at all.  Power has nothing to do with frequency response.  Generally speaking, power governs the volume, frequency response and shape of the speaker govern the detail.

Digital recording equipment has a very high sample rate (as is already mentioned) and will, at some point in the process, be converting the analog signal generated by the vibrations of voices and instruments into a digital signal for storage.  The main difference between analog and digital recording equipment is the storage medium and the conversions that must be made to store the sound in that medium.

As far as sampling rates go, blahblahblah, nyquist theorem, blahblahblah.

I usually buy my music in CD form, because I have to spend a good chunk of time per-week in my car and would prefer to get a physical copy of the album artwork.

[ALoveSupreme]

Or you could dub your music onto tapes and listen to them in the car and KEEP YOUR GODDAMN CAR TIDY FOR FUCKS SAKE.

no can do, mom.  my car doubles as my closet.