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[Narr]

Some friends of mine own and operate www.playithardcore.com.  I'm also a contributor there, currently working on a guide for Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance 2.  Recently, I've decided the images I made for our "Frustration Ratings" didn't really work.

http://www.playithardcore.com/pihwiki/index.php?title=Difficulty_Ratings is where you can see all the ones as they currently are.

I decided I didn't like the Imperial Guardsman for #3.  I think that was mostly because I was hopelessly addicted to Dawn of War at the time and wanted Warhammer 40k represented somehow.  After reading the description again, I decided that Ratchet would be a much better choice.

We also collectively decided we didn't like Sam L as #9 because he's not a video game character, nor a source of endless power and destruction as Cthulhu at #10 is.  After talking with a few people, we decided on Mike Tyson for being probably the single most difficult thing any of us ever attempted to beat in our childhood, as well as being pretty recognizable across the board as being fucking difficult.  He also bites off ears IRL.

SO THAT BRINGS ME TO WHAT THIS THREAD IS ABOUT.

I want to replace #4.  I just think it's an ugly image and Diablo 2's characters are kind of boring to me.  I would do Dr. Wiley of Megaman fame, but the Megaman games don't really fit the difficulty we've described under the description and as I am likely to do a Megaman game in the future, I think it'd be weird as hell to have an image with a Megaman character that wasn't being used on that page.  I've had 2 people suggest Ridley from the Metroid games.  (As I posted this, I thought maybe a Metroid itself would be good.)  I also thought about Locke or Shadow from Final Fantasy 6 (because FF6 fits our outline pretty well for #4, and those are my two favorite guys from the game).  Anyone else have input?  I'm stumped.

[Storm Rider]

Why is Mallow #1? I mean, I haven't played Super Mario RPG in years, but I don't remember it being that easy.

Also, totally rad that Ogre Battle 64 is on there. I loved that game, and I'm still sad we'll probably never see another Ogre Battle.

[Ryszardthebored1]

Gradius.

[Narr]

Why is Mallow #1? I mean, I haven't played Super Mario RPG in years, but I don't remember it being that easy.

Also, totally rad that Ogre Battle 64 is on there. I loved that game, and I'm still sad we'll probably never see another Ogre Battle.

Mallow is a fluffy cloud man.  He's based more on the fact he's a fluffy marshmallow-looking dude than the difficulty of the game, although for the record, I think Super Mario RPG was a cake-walk.  The only difficult battle is Culex and he's optional.  That's also why cel-shaded Link is #2.  So what I said about having a Megaman character not represent the difficulty of Megaman games is sort of thrown of the window, but honestly, those are the only two, I think.  We initially based it off characters rather than the titles they represent.

Besides, a game could be difficult and get a "low" rating.  Example: #3 as Ratchet!  I don't think any of the Ratchet games are "easy" but in terms of how we've outlined the hardcore guides, they fit it perfectly.  "Slightly difficult if it is your first time through, but a breeze once you have the hang of things. Games in this category generally don't require metagaming or twinking, but are not for an amateur. They might take 2 or 3 tries to finish, and rarely do they have any single combat section that takes more than just some skill."  You don't need to meta-game, you don't need to have played through the game a zillion times.  You just need plain good ol' skill.

Edit: also, if I'm doing a Shmup, it's going to be WAY higher on the difficulty rating.  I don't think there's anyone on the planet that can beat most any of the good titles without ever dying even once.  R-Type is also superior to Graduis, I'm sorry.

[Storm Rider]

Hmmm, maybe somebody from Castlevania? Those games can be fairly difficult until you die a few times and memorize the patterns. That seems more or less what the difficulty selector is indicating there. However, the two specific characters I would suggest, Dracula or Death, are both a bit more intimidating than the few after it, so maybe that isn't a perfect choice.

[Narr]

Richter Belmont would be a good Castlevania guy to use.  That's also in the runnings.

So there's really no one else here with an opinion on any of the guys I've mentioned if not something new?

That makes me a sad panda.

[KvP]

Hmm, well, a lot of people think the new Ninja Gaiden games are balls-bleedingly difficult. Why not include something from that?

And was BG2 that difficult, that it would represent 8? Maybe the first time around, but it wasn't consistently so like some other games. Then again, I've played it for so goddamn long it's hard to think of anything as hard, except maybe those fucking illithid.

[Narr]

Hmm, well, a lot of people think the new Ninja Gaiden games are balls-bleedingly difficult. Why not include something from that?

And was BG2 that difficult, that it would represent 8? Maybe the first time around, but it wasn't consistently so like some other games. Then again, I've played it for so goddamn long it's hard to think of anything as hard, except maybe those fucking illithid.

Beat Baldur's Gate 2 without dying, without reloading a save just to make sure something goes your way.  Go read our definition of what "hardcore" is.

And yes, it is very much an 8.

[ackblom12]

The only reason it's that hard though really is due to nothing but the luck factor. About the only reason I die in BG2 is because of a nasty critical that occurs at just the wrong time. It's also insanely easy to twink your characters, especially mages/sorcerors, to make combat nothing but a small and slightly annoying obstacle.

This opinion does not include the Ascension mod. Dear lord does it not include the Ascension mod.

[Narr]

That's kind of the point.  We take luck out of the game.  Fallout 1 and 2 are the same as Baldur's Gate.

I've been thinking of putting together a guide for Neverwinter Nights.  Honestly, we at the PIH community just like to challenge ourselves and have fun.

We're also wanting to recruit people that think it's a cool idea and would like to contribute, even if in some small way.  Honestly, it took me like 5 seconds to set up the Ratchet and Clank: Up Your Arsenal page I plan to do later, and I'll probably throw together a page for Final Fantasy Tactics soon which'll just be different styles of playing through the game in a hardcore fashion.

[Storm Rider]

I think my problem with metagaming is that it just sort of takes the fun out of playing games. It almost makes it into a chore.

[KvP]

It's hard not to metagame, though, particularly in games like BG2 that have all sorts of replay value. After that first time you know what's coming and plan accordingly. Most people, if faced by an opponent that hands them their ass more than once, aren't going to keep going back at it the same way, they're going to load the game a bit earlier and come into the fight better prepared. BG2 could be considered difficult early on, but the fact of the matter is that epic level D&D is a bitch to balance, and BG2 and its expansion did a bang-up job of it. Hell, in Throne of Bhaal you're practically unstoppable (although the aforementioned Ascension mod will give you a run for your money). And most of the buffs that can give you a real edge, like haste, are things you're going to want on your party 24/7 anyway. But I could see how trying to go the "Iron Man" route could be difficult.

But man, if you think BG2 is hard, you really ought to play Icewind Dale 2. That game is impossible to beat without metagaming, especially in regards to your party makeup. You will not beat the game if you play with characters you just think are fun. I think it also has a hardcore mode built into it (or maybe that's IWD 1?) so it'd be right up your alley.

[bryanthelion]

Actually, I wouldnt go with video game references at all.

I would make up my own cartoon characters . Like "Wally the Wabbit" for number one, then have some semi-retarded bunny-wunny gracing the scale. Humping the 1.

I would keep Cthulu though..

[Narr]

But man, if you think BG2 is hard, you really ought to play Icewind Dale 2. That game is impossible to beat without metagaming, especially in regards to your party makeup. You will not beat the game if you play with characters you just think are fun. I think it also has a hardcore mode built into it (or maybe that's IWD 1?) so it'd be right up your alley.

I agree.  ThunderClaw, the guy who did the Fallout 2 and I think most of the BG2 guide, never actually played through IWD2 yet, though, and as my page notes, I just don't have the patience to play long RPGs hardcore-like.  I'll talk to him about it, though.  I was trying to convince him to go through the game with me 2-player (and it'd just be us two characters, how awesomely fun would that be?) but it fell to the wayside because poor guy is busy 99% of the time.

I'm going to make a Final Fantasy Tactics walkthough, though.  I forgot if I mentioned that already and I'm too lazy to look.  The PSP version comes out tomorrow.  I bought a PSP in anticipation.

@ thatwittygeek: We'd have to do that if we ever planned on making money off the site, I suppose.  I don't have the artistic talent to create characters like that, however.

[Storm Rider]

I'm going to make a Final Fantasy Tactics walkthough, though.  I forgot if I mentioned that already and I'm too lazy to look.  The PSP version comes out tomorrow.  I bought a PSP in anticipation.

You bought a PSP to play a remake, really?

[0bsessions]

As opposed to all that stellar original gaming they've brought to the PSP?

[Storm Rider]

Well, exactly. I suppose the point I was trying to make is why on Earth you would buy a PSP in the first place. Especially since the original version can be played on the PS2 and is not particularly expensive or difficult to find.

That being said, I am extremely tempted by the remakes of the first two Star Ocean games. But that's only because the first Star Ocean never made it to the West and I never played the second.

[KvP]

I'd think that anybody who'd buy a PS3 solely for MGS4 would buy a PSP solely for Portable Ops.

[Narr]

You guys have no idea how big a fan of the original FFT I am.  It is probably my favorite game of all time, end of story.  They cleaned up the translation, added a couple new things, and most importantly it's PORTABLE as in I can play it anywhere.

Besides, there's enough other decent games out for it now.  Lots of good strategy RPGs, at least, which is my genre.

[Storm Rider]

I guess my problem with the PSP is that all of its quality games are just gimped console games, and since I already play console games the vast majority of the PSP's library is totally worthless to me. Besides, the PSP doesn't have Advance Wars. And eventually there will be a Fire Emblem game (speaking of hardcore strategy RPGs) for the DS, and when it does come it will consume my soul.

[bryanthelion]

You guys have no idea how big a fan of the original FFT I am.  It is probably my favorite game of all time, end of story.  They cleaned up the translation, added a couple new things, and most importantly it's PORTABLE as in I can play it anywhere.

Besides, there's enough other decent games out for it now.  Lots of good strategy RPGs, at least, which is my genre.

be my friend!

Also, the Nippon Ichi games are KILLER. You cannot consider yourself a stratrpg fan if you never played any of their games.

[Stryc9Fuego]

I want to replace #4.  I just think it's an ugly image and Diablo 2's characters are kind of boring to me.

You need another tattoed barbarian. One that's more badass, stronger, crazier... one with a hamster in his pants:

Minsc and Boo.

[Narr]

I think soulmata and ThunderClaw would kill me for mentioning Minsc.  He's a pretty awful character, when you get down to it.  He's a gimpy fighter with gimply cleric spells.  Give me Keldorn if we're going the holy route or Korgan if we're going to be evil badasses.  I'd rather my characters didn't instantly die when fighting illithid.

Also, we already have Irenicus from BG2.

[KvP]

Blasphemy. Minsc is win, especially with the restored content that gives him nat 19 strength. I've never used his spellcasting. And it doesn't make sense to compare him to any of the newer CNPCs, since BG1, lacking kits as it did, was far less broken and far more indicative of the authentic tabletop experience not concerned with munchkin stats. Khalid, to give an example, was a fighter with 15 strength. That's something you'd normally get in D&D but is completely unthinkable in a computer game version, especially with unlimited rerolls ensuring desired stats.

Keldorn's only good because the Inquisitor kit was hopelessly overpowered.

[ackblom12]

Besides that, Keldorn's kinda annoying and Minsc takes the game from "great" to fucking amazing.

[Narr]

Blasphemy. Minsc is win, especially with the restored content that gives him nat 19 strength. I've never used his spellcasting. And it doesn't make sense to compare him to any of the newer CNPCs, since BG1, lacking kits as it did, was far less broken and far more indicative of the authentic tabletop experience not concerned with munchkin stats. Khalid, to give an example, was a fighter with 15 strength. That's something you'd normally get in D&D but is completely unthinkable in a computer game version, especially with unlimited rerolls ensuring desired stats.

Keldorn's only good because the Inquisitor kit was hopelessly overpowered.

Restored content?  That some mod?  Last I heard he was at something like 18/73.  And why would you not make use of a character's full abilities?  Barkskin helps.

And it's totally fair to compare him to the NPCs in BG2 because you have the choice of using them or him.  In a hardcore setting, who would you rather have?  The best or a liability?  Both ThunderClaw and soulmata refuse to use him for that reason alone (plus they almost always make evil characters and just find Minsc annoying).

I personally have no problem with him, but there are much better and more likable (imo) characters in the game.

And Keldorn is good for a lot of reasons.  Reasonably high strength and constitution, decent spellcasting, a good kit, the ability to use two of the game's best weapons, great default armor, and while I haven't been able to confirm WHY it happens he seems to get an absurd amount of critical hits.  It happened for me, my brother, and a friend of mine.  We all seem to think the same thing but haven't been able to PROVE it.

Now the best NPC by far is Sarevok, who does like 200 damage on a critical.  We at PIH think it's pretty much worthless to use any other fighter for that reason (that ability makes him superior than any player made fighter could ever be).

[KvP]

Restored content?  That some mod?  Last I heard he was at something like 18/73.

Like most games, BG2 had content that the designers wanted to put into the game but didn't have time to implement properly (BG2 actually had very little left out. For a course in how cut content can hurt a game, consult KOTOR2) and after it was released the game community got ahold of what the cut content was and took it upon themselves to put it all in. It all came out as Unfinished Business. Among the additions are a proper resolution to the Circus Tent Illusionist quest, and a sidequest in which Boo is stolen. While Boo is gone, Minsc has a strength of 10 (Minsc depends on Boo in more than one way), and when you track down Boo and get him back, Minsc's strength goes from 18/93 to 19, and he gains the ability to summon a clone of Boo once per day (it's a rat, only really good for setting off traps)

And why would you not make use of a character's full abilities?  Barkskin helps.

The same reason it doesn't make sense to multiclass at 3rd or 4th level. Minsc was meant for out-and-out fighting and any other divine caster easily outclasses him spell-wise. Time Minsc would take to cast a low-level spell is better spent putting big dents in things. Besides, if we were to make full use of his abilities we'd restrict him to leather armors to enable his sneaking, which is ludicrous. Best to either give him a nice two-handed sword (Lilarcor the talking sword is a perfect fit) or put that extra proficiency into two-weapon fighting and turn him into a whirlwind fighter (getting him good with flails and giving him the Flail of Ages is a safe bet) If you're going to go with a spellcasting ranger, you'll want Valygar with his extended spell list, and you'll want to give him the +3 lightning katana in his off hand (truly the greatest weapon in BG2, but not in ToB)

And it's totally fair to compare him to the NPCs in BG2 because you have the choice of using them or him.  In a hardcore setting, who would you rather have?  The best or a liability?  Both ThunderClaw and soulmata refuse to use him for that reason alone (plus they almost always make evil characters and just find Minsc annoying).

For one, Minsc is hardly a liability. Aerie or Viconia in melee is a liability. Haer-Dalis in anything is a liability. But in answer to your question, in a hardcore setting, I wouldn't go with the given CNPCs at all. I'd utilize the "multiplayer" mode and create a totally broken, maxed-stat all-kit party, Icewind Dale style:

Inquisitor / Berserker / Barbarian
Any thief kit (bounty hunters can kill Irenicus at the Tree of Life in one round, provided you set traps for him)
Shapeshifter / Avenger / multiclass mage-cleric
Monk
Cleric kit / multiclass ranger-cleric
Sorcerer.

This is the best way to make the game your bitch, especially if you're running an evil character, since there are only 3 CNPCs that will stick with you through a low reputation. But I wouldn't do that, because the lasting greatness of BG2 is in its party dynamics, which you don't get with a user-made party. And Minsc has, on the whole, a better and more consistent "personality" than Keldorn.

And Keldorn is good for a lot of reasons.  Reasonably high strength and constitution, decent spellcasting, a good kit, the ability to use two of the game's best weapons, great default armor, and while I haven't been able to confirm WHY it happens he seems to get an absurd amount of critical hits.  It happened for me, my brother, and a friend of mine.  We all seem to think the same thing but haven't been able to PROVE it.

Minsc has a much better strength, same con (I think). Keldorn gains THAC0 slightly slower, and he can't cast spells except for those his kit gives him (he's an Inquisitor, remember? no spellcasting, no turning), it's quite possible to go without the Holy Avenger, by the time you get him you should be able to replace his armor with something better, and he shouldn't be getting more critical hits but then the dicerolling isn't truly random anyway. Keldorn's greatest strength is his kit abilities, as they make your party fairly magic-proof so long as he stays under your control. But he's only a vital character if you haven't played that long. Multiple spellcasters of high level can easily substitute Keldorn's spell abilities and Minsc can easily fill his combat shoes and then some. I've run games with both Keldorn and Minsc, and Minsc always gets +50% of the total party kills.

I personally have no problem with him, but there are much better and more likable (imo) characters in the game.

Sure, but beyond the obvious subjectivity of taste (I personally quite enjoy the character) he doesn't have to be likable to be efficient.

Now the best NPC by far is Sarevok, who does like 200 damage on a critical.  We at PIH think it's pretty much worthless to use any other fighter for that reason (that ability makes him superior than any player made fighter could ever be).

I don't think so. By the time you get to ToB and Sarevok, if any of your party members aren't completely amazing you're playing the game the wrong way. The best CNPC in the game, I would have to say, might actually be Aerie or Edwin, given that you snag them a ring of wizardry, the amulet of power and the robe of Vecna, which give them spell slots and reduce all casting times by 5, effectively rendering any spells of 5th level or lower instantaneous casts. Now, they cast improved alacrity, then time stop, then unleash every spell from 1st to 5th they have before time starts again and they all come into effect at the same time. A sorcerer PC equipped with these items becomes completely unstoppable.

[Narr]

And it's totally fair to compare him to the NPCs in BG2 because you have the choice of using them or him.  In a hardcore setting, who would you rather have?  The best or a liability?  Both ThunderClaw and soulmata refuse to use him for that reason alone (plus they almost always make evil characters and just find Minsc annoying).

For one, Minsc is hardly a liability. Aerie or Viconia in melee is a liability. Haer-Dalis in anything is a liability. But in answer to your question, in a hardcore setting, I wouldn't go with the given CNPCs at all.[/laugh]Ever used Aerie, Keldorn, Anomen, Viconia, or Jaheira in the same party as Minsc?  He goes berserk and can attack your OWN CHARACTERS in certain situations.  Take, for example, if Aerie happens to die in battle, he'll flip out and try and kill you.  I know he has conflicts with a lot of the other characters in dialogue that can lead to him enraging and attacking them, as well.  Without that mod you listed (which seems pretty cool, I'll admit.  I'm going to show it to the other PIH guys and see what they think) Korgan is superior to Minsc for every single thing you mentioned Minsc is good for.  Why use a ranger to do the job of a more powerful fighter?

As for party dynamics, you're thinking a regular game playthrough.  That's fine.  If that's how you enjoy the game, then don't play it hardcore.  Minsc is a liability without a reload button.

And Keldorn is good for a lot of reasons.  Reasonably high strength and constitution, decent spellcasting, a good kit, the ability to use two of the game's best weapons, great default armor, and while I haven't been able to confirm WHY it happens he seems to get an absurd amount of critical hits.  It happened for me, my brother, and a friend of mine.  We all seem to think the same thing but haven't been able to PROVE it.

Minsc has a much better strength, same con (I think). Keldorn gains THAC0 slightly slower, and he can't cast spells except for those his kit gives him (he's an Inquisitor, remember? no spellcasting, no turning), it's quite possible to go without the Holy Avenger, by the time you get him you should be able to replace his armor with something better, and he shouldn't be getting more critical hits but then the dicerolling isn't truly random anyway. Keldorn's greatest strength is his kit abilities, as they make your party fairly magic-proof so long as he stays under your control. But he's only a vital character if you haven't played that long. Multiple spellcasters of high level can easily substitute Keldorn's spell abilities and Minsc can easily fill his combat shoes and then some. I've run games with both Keldorn and Minsc, and Minsc always gets +50% of the total party kills.

Paladins and Rangers have the same THAC0, I am reasonably sure.  And while Minsc has better strength, it's not so much better I ever gave a damn because by the time it was a sincere problem, I was boosting Keldorn's stats with items.  Keldorn with the gauntlets of dexterity (an unfortunate must for him) and a girdle of strength turn him into a tremendous powerhouse as his saving throws blow Minsc's pathetic brainpower out of the water.  Every time I have ever played, Keldorn was my personal melee guy of choice if my character wasn't one already, with the majority of the kills.  Minsc was too busy getting his brain eaten by mind flayers.

I personally have no problem with him, but there are much better and more likable (imo) characters in the game.

Sure, but beyond the obvious subjectivity of taste (I personally quite enjoy the character) he doesn't have to be likable to be efficient.

I only brought that up because you guys were hating on Keldorn for his personality and praising Minsc for his.  So, right back at you.  A character doesn't have to be likable to be efficient.  Anomen is a great example of that.

Now the best NPC by far is Sarevok, who does like 200 damage on a critical.  We at PIH think it's pretty much worthless to use any other fighter for that reason (that ability makes him superior than any player made fighter could ever be).

I don't think so. By the time you get to ToB and Sarevok, if any of your party members aren't completely amazing you're playing the game the wrong way. The best CNPC in the game, I would have to say, might actually be Aerie or Edwin, given that you snag them a ring of wizardry, the amulet of power and the robe of Vecna, which give them spell slots and reduce all casting times by 5, effectively rendering any spells of 5th level or lower instantaneous casts. Now, they cast improved alacrity, then time stop, then unleash every spell from 1st to 5th they have before time starts again and they all come into effect at the same time. A sorcerer PC equipped with these items becomes completely unstoppable.

You are arguing with the wrong person now.

I shouldn't have said best NPC, let me retract that statement and say best melee NPC.  If you think your other guys because they have more levels from having been in your party longer are better than Sarevok, you are wrong.  It's not his stats that make him superior to any other melee fighter (although they pretty much do anyway), it's the official bonuses the guys at Black Isle gave him.

I will agree Aerie and Edwin are amazing.  Aerie is the single best buff-bot in the game (soulmata once used Aerie and only her to kill the silver dragon in the underdark, after buffing herself up the ass and then turning into an iron golem) and Edwin is a superior wizard to any player-made wizard because he gets more spells per day than it's possible to get on your own.

[Stryc9Fuego]

...oops. I didn't mean to start this big ole BG fight up in here.

I say we leave this as "different people like different characters for different reasons" and get back on track.

 

[Narr]

Hey, it's not a big deal.  I enjoy these kind of discussions.

[Alex C]

Keldorn and Minsc are both fine characters but for the exact opposite reasons. Minsc is the great enabler. Strength belt? Minsc doesn't need it. Just hand it over to Jaheira and find out how much damage you can do when combining iron skins, dual wielded scimitars and 19 strength (answer: a LOT of damage). Minsc will do just fine with his built in +5 damage bonus. Dexterity gauntlets? Minsc doesn't particulary need it, he'd get only a pinch of AC anyway. Just let Anomen have them so he can grab that Dark Iron Shield and wander around with a stupidly high AC. Keldorn? Well, he needs all of that stuff. And a Holy Avenger. Which you need to kill a dragon to get. That's no big deal for us metagaming veterans, but it could very easily result in one very dead party for a less experienced player. Keldorn's pretty awesome when all geared up, but I've built parties that were overall the better for his absence by divvying up the enhancing gear he's no longer hogging and using Viconia. Your mileage will definitely vary depending on the party's overall makeup, of course.