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Author Topic: The whole downloading music thing...  (Read 26093 times)

CryoSilver

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Re: The whole downloading music thing...
« Reply #50 on: 19 Oct 2007, 19:27 »

"Nobody paid for the CD at one point?"

And I have no problem with them lending out the CD.  I have a problem with them copying the CD, or ripping it and then distributing the digital files.  Now you haven't lent it to someone, you've reproduced it, which is the sole right of whoever holds the copyright (generally the artist or record company).
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Johnny C

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Re: The whole downloading music thing...
« Reply #51 on: 19 Oct 2007, 20:17 »

And there you have it. The problem is that based on copyright whoever bought the CD has essentially purchased not the music itself but the privilege of listening to the music.

Imagine this: I'm currently sitting enjoying a piece of beef jerky. When I bought it, it was agreed that I owned the jerky now and could do whatever I wanted with it. I didn't pay to have the privilege of owning the beef jerky and having it in my house. I paid for the jerky. I can eat it. I can give it to my friends to eat. I can throw it at a wall or make tender love to it. It's my beef jerky. When whoever made the jerky decided to turn meat into salty delicious meatleather they weren't making a copyright, they were making jerky.

When I buy music I'm buying the music. When I make music I'm making the music. Copyright is so that EMI can sue the pants off of a woman for wanting to hear Kansas without buying a rich band's greatest hits record.
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CryoSilver

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Re: The whole downloading music thing...
« Reply #52 on: 19 Oct 2007, 21:29 »

You are not, however, allowed to determine exactly how that jerky is made and then produce unauthorized copies of it to distribute to your friends.  That right is subject to patent law, which is just copyright for physical objects.
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Johnny C

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Re: The whole downloading music thing...
« Reply #53 on: 19 Oct 2007, 22:53 »

Why not? Why is there a copyright on that particular combination of ingredients? Why is there a copyright on a particular combination of notes? What purpose does it serve? Who does it really benefit?

At this point we're arguing over copyright. I am against copyright in most if not all of its forms. It's a silly mechanism that's a great signifier of the absolute lack of trust in the current capitalist system. Why not worry about providing quality so that people will buy your stuff rather than clutching it tightly to your chest and using the legal system to shout "MINE" instead?
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CryoSilver

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Re: The whole downloading music thing...
« Reply #54 on: 19 Oct 2007, 23:05 »

So essentially no one owns their own ideas, in your ideal world?  Patent and copyright were established so that people could benefit from the things they came up with.  And in most cases, they work the way they're supposed to.

Copyright has gotten a little out of hand (I think now it lasts for 70 years after the death of the creator of whatever is copyrighted), and patents last for 17 years.  Why WOULDN'T someone expect that if they came up with something unique, someone else couldn't just come along and say "Hey that's great, I'm going to use it without your permission, okay?"

It isn't so much about providing quality so people will buy your stuff, as you say, so much as it is that if there were no copyright law, no one would BUY your music/art, because they could just copy it for free.
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Johnny C

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Re: The whole downloading music thing...
« Reply #55 on: 20 Oct 2007, 00:32 »

Nobody making art needs to own their ideas beyond "I created this." You lose the point as soon as you say, "They NEED to benefit from it." The act of creation in itself is its own reward, and the most it's guaranteed. This is a point that has been emphasized and re-emphasized throughout the thread. Besides, how does filesharing not benefit the artist? We've once again established this: it generates interest in performers and their work, to a degree where merch and records are bought and shows are attended.

Copyright works for people who want to make money. For most others it's unnecessary at best.
« Last Edit: 20 Oct 2007, 00:35 by Johnny C »
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KharBevNor

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Re: The whole downloading music thing...
« Reply #56 on: 20 Oct 2007, 05:10 »

So, what's your opinion then, downloading opponents, on buying and selling second hand CDs? Surely that's infinitely worse than file-sharing: not only is someone getting their greasy hands on the music without the band seeing a penny, but some interloping racketeer is making a profit out of it instead! How could we allow such things in the 21st century? Surely, once you get tired of a CD, you should be required to drop it in a woodchipper?

Another question: Ever used a VCR? Depending on where you live, taping live television is either fair use, fair use under certain circumstances, or technically illegal but nobody cares. Did you ever watch a film in school? That's illegal, read the warning at the front of a video or DVD some day.

You ever photocopied anything? Printed out a picture from the internet? Posted a picture from the internet on another website? Any of those actions could well have been an infringement of copyright.

Basically, what I'm saying is, copyright law is stupid and everyone has broken it, probably without even realising.
« Last Edit: 20 Oct 2007, 05:14 by KharBevNor »
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Re: The whole downloading music thing...
« Reply #57 on: 20 Oct 2007, 05:32 »

Drop it in a woodchipper?! But it's not yours! You're destroying the artist's property! How dare you!

So, yeah, basically I think what I believe has already been said by other people: File sharing is okay, but you should really try to support the band in some other way, if you can.
As Khar points out, everyone breaks copyright law, but only in the case of downloading media do people feel the need to point it out and make a big deal about it.
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a pack of wolves

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Re: The whole downloading music thing...
« Reply #58 on: 20 Oct 2007, 09:08 »

Why WOULDN'T someone expect that if they came up with something unique, someone else couldn't just come along and say "Hey that's great, I'm going to use it without your permission, okay?"

Because it limits creativity and actually limits and reduces any art I (or anyone else) might create. You make that statement sound like a bad thing, whereas to me it's nothing but positive. So a small number of people might see slightly decreased revenue from their intellectual property. That's a small price to pay for there to be more art in the world.
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CryoSilver

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Re: The whole downloading music thing...
« Reply #59 on: 20 Oct 2007, 09:26 »

Quote from: Johnny C
Nobody making art needs to own their ideas beyond "I created this." You lose the point as soon as you say, "They NEED to benefit from it." The act of creation in itself is its own reward, and the most it's guaranteed.

So at what point do people start owning the things that are theirs?  If art isn't yours, are ideas?  What about plans, schematics, etc?  Does the guy who invents, say, a new kind of solar panel own the plans of that solar panel, or is it now in the public domain, where anyone can use it free of charge?  What about actual, physical things?  What's the substantial difference between an mp3 (a series of impulses recorded on a magnetic plate) and an actual CD (a series of tiny holes on a foil sheet)?  Where should the line be drawn?

Quote from: KharBevNor
So, what's your opinion then, downloading opponents, on buying and selling second hand CDs? Surely that's infinitely worse than file-sharing: not only is someone getting their greasy hands on the music without the band seeing a penny, but some interloping racketeer is making a profit out of it instead! How could we allow such things in the 21st century? Surely, once you get tired of a CD, you should be required to drop it in a woodchipper?
This goes in the same line as the library thing: if you sell the CD, you no longer have it.  One CD (and therefore, one copy of the music) has been purchased and paid for, and, presuming you don't rip it and then sell the CD, one copy of the music exists.

Quote from: KharBevNor
Ever used a VCR? Depending on where you live, taping live television is either fair use, fair use under certain circumstances, or technically illegal but nobody cares. Did you ever watch a film in school? That's illegal, read the warning at the front of a video or DVD some day.

Actually, I've never recorded anything on my VCR, and if I watched a video in school, it's my teacher's fault, not mine.  But I do get your point, which is that "If everyone does it, it must be fine."  The fair use clause is a tricky thing, and usually relates to how much of a work you're quoting/using.  But in the case of filesharing, the thing in question, you are distributing the entire package, which does not fall under fair use.  The copyright holder reserves the right to reproduce the media in question, which means you don't have it, and you never did. You never bought that right.  You COULD buy it, if you have the money to give the record company, or you could get permission (if the artist is really nice), but when you bought the CD, you bought it with the understanding that you would NOT copy it and give it away.

People make a big deal out of filesharing because it's widespread, easy and (mostly) free.  Not as many people photocopy or scan books because it's time consuming and boring, but ripping a song and then sharing it is a simple as clicking a button.  But if it was as easy to do that with, say, cars, pills or nuclear weapons, people would make a big deal over that.  There's always trouble in the electronics industry because of patent infringements; it's the same thing.  If the laws weren't there to keep people's ideas theirs, people would have totake it into their own hands, and that couldn't end well at all.

Quote from: a pack of wolves
Because it limits creativity and actually limits and reduces any art I (or anyone else) might create. You make that statement sound like a bad thing, whereas to me it's nothing but positive. So a small number of people might see slightly decreased revenue from their intellectual property. That's a small price to pay for there to be more art in the world.
And that is why (originally) copyright expired after 50 years (which is a while, but not so unreasonably long).  But the marvelous Disney Corporation stepped in and got it extended to 95 years, which is a bit too long, in my opinion.  Patents last for a much shorter time (about 20 years).

Now, I do think copyright lasts too long, but it I still feel it should exist, because people should have the right to security in the things they create.  IF they WANT their art to be used by others, they can relinquish their rights; you can always voluntarily relinquish rights, but the moment they get taken away, it's an injustice.

I do realize I'm probably not going to change any minds, but I think it's important to have a devil's advocate and shake up the groupthink a little...
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schimmy

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Re: The whole downloading music thing...
« Reply #60 on: 20 Oct 2007, 10:33 »

What's the substantial difference between an mp3 (a series of impulses recorded on a magnetic plate) and an actual CD (a series of tiny holes on a foil sheet)?  Where should the line be drawn?
When you steal a CD, it can no longer be sold, so the artist* has lost money.
When you download MP3s, the amount of CDs that can be sold has not changed. They have not lost money. Arguably, they lost money because you might not buy the record, but I think that the tiny sum of money they get per record is easily negated by ticket sales and merchandise.
*Read: record label

This goes in the same line as the library thing: if you sell the CD, you no longer have it.  One CD (and therefore, one copy of the music) has been purchased and paid for, and, presuming you don't rip it and then sell the CD, one copy of the music exists.
But the reseller is still making money off of the intellectual property of the artist. They have, presumably, listened to the record as much as they would like to, and so are selling it on. If they sell it on at the price they bought it, they get all their money back, so haven't they 'stolen' the music on the CD? I admit that they likely won't sell it for full retail price, but they're still getting the CD at a severe discount.

Actually, I've never recorded anything on my VCR, and if I watched a video in school, it's my teacher's fault, not mine.
You were still participating in the 'crime' of copyright infringement of your own free will.


if it was as easy to do that with, say, cars, pills or nuclear weapons, people would make a big deal over that.
I don't know if they would. I think everyone would just be all "Oh man I got a sports car for free. Awesome!" And free, unlimited supplies of medicine?* Who could possibly object to that?
* (I assume that's what you mean by pills... the drug industry hardly has a lot of supporters in the media and law)


There's always trouble in the electronics industry because of patent infringements; it's the same thing.  If the laws weren't there to keep people's ideas theirs, people would have to take it into their own hands, and that couldn't end well at all.
Would they? I don't know. Wouldn't the world be a better place if IP didn't exist, and people were free to modify and improve the works of others as they saw fit? Sure, some people could lose some money here and there, but aren't freedom and artistic / technological progress more important than a few dollars?



Now, I do think copyright lasts too long, but it I still feel it should exist, because people should have the right to security in the things they create.  IF they WANT their art to be used by others, they can relinquish their rights; you can always voluntarily relinquish rights, but the moment they get taken away, it's an injustice.
Where does the idea of copyrighting come from? It's a social construct. There more ethically acceptable ways of protecting your work. Take the creative commons license. It states:
Quote
You are free:

    * to Share to copy, distribute and transmit the work
    * to Remix to adapt the work

Under the following conditions:

    *Attribution. You must attribute the work in the manner specified by the author or licensor (but not in any way that suggests that they endorse you or your use of the work).
    *Noncommercial. You may not use this work for commercial purposes.
I think that's a much more artistic and fair way of protecting intellectual property.


I do realize I'm probably not going to change any minds, but I think it's important to have a devil's advocate and shake up the groupthink a little...
That's no problem. A little healthy debate never hurt anyone. And, if any of us are wrong, it's probably better that we at least have a chance of being convinced of the truth, whatever that may be.
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CryoSilver

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Re: The whole downloading music thing...
« Reply #61 on: 20 Oct 2007, 11:08 »

Quote from: schimmy
Arguably, they lost money because you might not buy the record, but I think that the tiny sum of money they get per record is easily negated by ticket sales and merchandise.
So what's the cutoff for how much money it has to cost a record label before it becomes not okay to steal their music?  Ten cents?  Ten dollars?
Quote from: schimmy
But the reseller is still making money off of the intellectual property of the artist.
But now they no longer have access to that property.  There is still only one CD, and only one person in possession of that CD: in theory, the person who sold it has to acquire a new CD if he wants to listen to it again after he sells it.  You can sell your car, too, and not give more money to the dealership/factory, but now you don't have a car any more.  Same thing.
Quote from: schimmy
You were still participating in the 'crime' of copyright infringement of your own free will.
Free will? Not really; I had to be in school.  But that's getting off the point.
Quote from: schimmy
Would they? I don't know. Wouldn't the world be a better place if IP didn't exist, and people were free to modify and improve the works of others as they saw fit? Sure, some people could lose some money here and there, but aren't freedom and artistic / technological progress more important than a few dollars?
I strongly disagree here.  If I create something, it's mine, and I should be free to use it or let others use it as I see fit.  In my opinion, a song or book is no different than a potato, or loaf of bread: it is something that someone created, and is therefore, their property.  And while I might not expect to make a lot of money from my art, that doesn't make it okay to deprive me of even more of it.  "I'm only stealing a LITTLE" is not a valid argument.  What if there was no money, and the music was traded directly for, say, food? "I'm only stealing some of his food" is okay?

I do know about the Creative Commons license, and I think it's a great thing for people who want to use it.  But some of us don't.  Some of us want the things we write/compose to be ours, and to remain unaltered.  I wouldn't appreciate it if someone painted my car pink because it "looks better now" and in many cases, I wouldn't appreciate it if my characters and settings get altered and Mary-Sued up for the same reason.
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schimmy

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Re: The whole downloading music thing...
« Reply #62 on: 20 Oct 2007, 11:38 »

So what's the cutoff for how much money it has to cost a record label before it becomes not okay to steal their music?  Ten cents?  Ten dollars?
Record labels are superfluous to the art. They have no right to or reason to be making money off of the artists they exploit. And trust me, the artists are being exploited. There's an article written by Steve Albini that I'm looking for that illustrates my point perfectly, but at the moment I can't find it. I'm fairly sure a link's been posted fairly recently on this forum, if anyone can find it, that'd be great.

Free will? Not really; I had to be in school.  But that's getting off the point.
Admittedly, it might be off the point, but if you so object to copyright infringement, then surely you could have at least voiced your concerns and/or asked to not watch it?

I strongly disagree here.  If I create something, it's mine, and I should be free to use it or let others use it as I see fit.  In my opinion, a song or book is no different than a potato, or loaf of bread: it is something that someone created, and is therefore, their property.
But what if someone can improve the recipe for a loaf of bread, or find some way to duplicate that bread for free, so as to feed those in the world with no food. Should they be stopped? And, yes, I am comparing art to food. As far as I see it, art is as important to human society as food is.

And while I might not expect to make a lot of money from my art, that doesn't make it okay to deprive me of even more of it.  "I'm only stealing a LITTLE" is not a valid argument.  What if there was no money, and the music was traded directly for, say, food? "I'm only stealing some of his food" is okay?
I think this is the point that we will never agree on. You think that artists lose money through downloads, while I think they don't. I guess we should leave it at that.

I do know about the Creative Commons license, and I think it's a great thing for people who want to use it.  But some of us don't.  Some of us want the things we write/compose to be ours, and to remain unaltered.  I wouldn't appreciate it if someone painted my car pink because it "looks better now" and in many cases, I wouldn't appreciate it if my characters and settings get altered and Mary-Sued up for the same reason.
They wouldn't be painting your car pink, though. You would still have your car. They would merely have created a pink version of it. And what if their modification makes the car more environmentally friendly, for example. Should a person be stopped from modifying the designs that your car is based off of, and thereby benefiting everyone, just because you want protection from people doing a better job than you could in designing the car, because the designs are your IP.

On the whole, I think the way our arguments fundamentally disagree is on the principle that you believe that downloading is exactly the same as physically taking a CD, while I see it as just duplicating the CD.
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Johnny C

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Re: The whole downloading music thing...
« Reply #63 on: 20 Oct 2007, 16:47 »

You think that artists lose money through downloads, while I think they don't. I guess we should leave it at that.

It's not even a matter of think!

Trent Reznor encourages fans to download his music! Radiohead gives away their album for free! It's 2007!

Seriously. I've opened for at least one touring band a month since about June and none of them have any problem with downloading. It brings people out to your shows, and that's where any artist will make the most money. Record sales? Record sales count for shit. After getting the CD recorded and mastered, most bands just want to make that money back. They're working to get back to square one. In probably ninety percent of cases a record is an advertisement for a live set.

If you want to talk about record labels, CDs and theft then the best thing to do is find out how much a major label expects in return from its signees. I bet you'll be surprised.

Besides that, I totally missed the memo when us artists were supposed to become greedy and secretive with our work. Personally when I make a song I want to share it with as many people as I can, not talk about how it's mine, all mine. It's one thing if someone tries to make money by passing my exact work off as their own but it's another thing if someone just wants to have it. Maybe they wouldn't have bought it in the first place. Maybe now that they've downloaded it they will.

To illustrate my last point, here's a list of artists whose LPs I am looking at RIGHT THIS SECOND that I wouldn't have bought if I hadn't heard it based on duplication and downloading first.

Ladyhawk
Ted Leo
Final Fantasy
Sleater-Kinney
Caribou
Slint
Shellac
Young Galaxy
Fugazi

It adds to sales. Maybe it doesn't in every single case but it does in enough that make it a good thing.
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CryoSilver

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Re: The whole downloading music thing...
« Reply #64 on: 20 Oct 2007, 17:50 »

Record labels are superfluous to the art. They have no right to or reason to be making money off of the artists they exploit. And trust me, the artists are being exploited. There's an article written by Steve Albini that I'm looking for that illustrates my point perfectly, but at the moment I can't find it. I'm fairly sure a link's been posted fairly recently on this forum, if anyone can find it, that'd be great.
They (the artists) have the option not to sign: no one is forcing them to take a contract.
Quote
Admittedly, it might be off the point, but if you so object to copyright infringement, then surely you could have at least voiced your concerns and/or asked to not watch it?
The last time I watched a movie in school I was about 13 and didn't care.
Quote
But what if someone can improve the recipe for a loaf of bread, or find some way to duplicate that bread for free, so as to feed those in the world with no food. Should they be stopped?
They should ask first.
Quote
They wouldn't be painting your car pink, though. You would still have your car. They would merely have created a pink version of it. And what if their modification makes the car more environmentally friendly, for example. Should a person be stopped from modifying the designs that your car is based off of, and thereby benefiting everyone, just because you want protection from people doing a better job than you could in designing the car, because the designs are your IP.
Same thing: they should ask first.
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Re: The whole downloading music thing...
« Reply #65 on: 20 Oct 2007, 18:48 »

Why should they ask? The only decent response would be "yes" and anything else should be ignored, so the answer ought to have no bearing on the course of action taken. To act as if I needed permission from someone to use something which has entered into the public domain (whether legally or illegally) is an unnecessary infringement on liberty since no-one will be harmed by my doing so.

I have a feeling the Albini essay mentioned before may well be this one: http://www.negativland.com/albini.html
There are quite a few other essays on the Negativland site relavent to this discussion actually: http://www.negativland.com/intprop.html
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Re: The whole downloading music thing...
« Reply #66 on: 20 Oct 2007, 18:52 »

They (the artists) have the option not to sign: no one is forcing them to take a contract.

Plenty don't and are perfectly fine with their music being downloaded.

The last time I heard any performer say "don't download my stuff" was Will Smith in his song "Switch":

But don't download / Go out and buy the rekkid.
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CryoSilver

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Re: The whole downloading music thing...
« Reply #67 on: 20 Oct 2007, 19:06 »

Why should they ask? The only decent response would be "yes" and anything else should be ignored, so the answer ought to have no bearing on the course of action taken. To act as if I needed permission from someone to use something which has entered into the public domain (whether legally or illegally) is an unnecessary infringement on liberty since no-one will be harmed by my doing so.
No one harmed except the person whose idea you have appropriated, because he is no longer the sole supplier of the product of that idea.
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KharBevNor

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Re: The whole downloading music thing...
« Reply #68 on: 20 Oct 2007, 19:38 »

Ok, I'm going to cut to the quuick

Cryosliver, you're an ill informed cunt. Shut up.
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Re: The whole downloading music thing...
« Reply #69 on: 21 Oct 2007, 03:33 »

No one harmed except the person whose idea you have appropriated, because he is no longer the sole supplier of the product of that idea.

Or to put it a little more nicely than Khar, that isn't harming them. Where's the act of violence in duplication or modification? It's purely creative.
« Last Edit: 21 Oct 2007, 03:38 by a pack of wolves »
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Re: The whole downloading music thing...
« Reply #70 on: 21 Oct 2007, 06:19 »

GUYS GUYS I HAVE AN IDEA

LET'S PATENT THE WHEEL AND BECOME RICH

I MEAN IT'S AN IDEA SO WE CAN OWN IT
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Re: The whole downloading music thing...
« Reply #71 on: 21 Oct 2007, 07:02 »

Copyright law is old and greedy. Artists, if they are any good, will still make money. One of my friends wants to have a career in music so he's becoming a session musician and I assume he'll still have his own projects on the side. People that make their band their career presumably do it because they love making music, not to get rich and live a lavish life.

Copyright law is also silly! How far does it go anyway? If I hear a song used in an advert, can I not think about the song at a later point in time unless I pay to do so? I'm essentially hearing the music without buying it.
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Re: The whole downloading music thing...
« Reply #72 on: 21 Oct 2007, 08:45 »

Maybe I should become a session musician.
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Re: The whole downloading music thing...
« Reply #73 on: 21 Oct 2007, 10:04 »

If it weren't for music piracy, I really never would have gotten into music at all.  When a band I like is nearby, I'll go to their show, buy their shirts, etc.  There's no way I'd ever spend money on music without already knowing it'll be good - too many CDs suck to risk wasting my 15 bucks on a CD that might not be any good.
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Re: The whole downloading music thing...
« Reply #74 on: 21 Oct 2007, 13:51 »

Precisely. If CDs were more in the same price range as DVDs, then I would buy a hell of a lot more CDs.
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Re: The whole downloading music thing...
« Reply #75 on: 23 Oct 2007, 19:13 »

Copyright law is also silly! How far does it go anyway? If I hear a song used in an advert, can I not think about the song at a later point in time unless I pay to do so? I'm essentially hearing the music without buying it.

Yeah, that's illegal. The record companies will actually cut out the piece of your brain responsible for playing music.

Which reminds me... what's the legality of performing cover songs live these days? I should know this, I've just never bothered to find out.
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Re: The whole downloading music thing...
« Reply #76 on: 23 Oct 2007, 19:19 »

I'm pretty sure that it's basically illegal but nobody cares. If it's anything like performing plays, then you have to buy the rights off the music publisher.
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Re: The whole downloading music thing...
« Reply #77 on: 23 Oct 2007, 20:52 »

This child cares.



He cares too much. And it hurts.
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Re: The whole downloading music thing...
« Reply #78 on: 23 Oct 2007, 20:57 »

He's obviously in a devo covers band. And therefore ILLEGAL.
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Re: The whole downloading music thing...
« Reply #79 on: 24 Oct 2007, 10:02 »

I'm pretty sure that it's basically illegal but nobody cares. If it's anything like performing plays, then you have to buy the rights off the music publisher.

I'm pretty sure most venues pay fees to the songwriters' association that allow them to have both covers and incidental music.
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Re: The whole downloading music thing...
« Reply #80 on: 25 Oct 2007, 16:16 »

Here's my stance on downloading music:

Step 1:  "Hmm, this blog mentions a band called Spastic Cheese Monkeys*.  I've never heard of them, because the radio station I listen to has never played them.  Oh, how will I ever find out what they sound like?"

Step 2:  INTARWEBS (actually, I was already on the intarwebs  :oops:)

Step 3:  Search for downloads of Spastic Cheese Monkeys songs on each of the three or four websites I use for free MP3s.  Download up to maybe 5 songs.

Step 4:  "Wow, Spastic Cheese Monkeys is an awesome band!"

Step 5:  Make excursion downtown to local brick-and-mortar record store to buy Spastic Cheese Monkeys CD.  Possibly buy more SCM CDs in future if initial CD is good.

*Spastic Cheese Monkeys is not a real band, but if they were, they would be my favorite band.
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Re: The whole downloading music thing...
« Reply #81 on: 25 Oct 2007, 17:50 »

Confirmed, I'm calling my local radio station to complain that they don't play enough music by Spastic Cheese Monkeys.  This is a problem they need to fix NOW.
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Re: The whole downloading music thing...
« Reply #82 on: 25 Oct 2007, 20:02 »

BTW, if I ever form a band, I have dibs on the name Spastic Cheese Monkeys.
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Re: The whole downloading music thing...
« Reply #83 on: 28 Oct 2007, 19:12 »

Spastic Cheese Monkeys is a terrible fucking name.
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but the music sucks because the keyboards don't have the cold/mechanical sound they had but a wannabe techno sound that it's pathetic for Rammstein standars.

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Re: The whole downloading music thing...
« Reply #84 on: 28 Oct 2007, 19:35 »

it's an ok band name though
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Re: The whole downloading music thing...
« Reply #85 on: 28 Oct 2007, 20:58 »

No. It is not.
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Re: The whole downloading music thing...
« Reply #86 on: 28 Oct 2007, 22:26 »

It's really, really not.
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Re: The whole downloading music thing...
« Reply #87 on: 29 Oct 2007, 03:34 »

I hope they can make awesome music to balance it out.
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Re: The whole downloading music thing...
« Reply #88 on: 29 Oct 2007, 17:01 »

Good lord.  You people.  Seriously.   :roll:  You do realize that SCM doesn't actually exist and will never, ever exist, right?

I know it's an awful name, in fact I made a list of made-up terrible band names, and that was one of them.  It just happened to be the one that first popped into my head.  I could have used Chunky Muffin Overcoat, which I think might actually be worse (and really sounds more like a rap artist's name).  Or Floor Pie (Simpsons reference), or I Hate Everything Ever, or I Touched Seaweed, or... okay, I think I may be venturing into torturous territory here.  My point is that I meant it to be a bad band name.
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Re: The whole downloading music thing...
« Reply #89 on: 29 Oct 2007, 18:46 »

WE'RE TRYING TO ARGUE ABOUT SHIT THAT DOESN'T REALLY MATTER HERE
DO YOU MIND
DO YOU?!?!?!
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Re: The whole downloading music thing...
« Reply #90 on: 04 Nov 2007, 03:55 »

rerailing the thread:

http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/2347/125/

Downloaders buy more music than non-downloaders.
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Re: The whole downloading music thing...
« Reply #91 on: 05 Nov 2007, 03:00 »

But those are CANADIANS!
Not PEOPLE!

PS I don't mean it, canadian people. You're all people!
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Re: The whole downloading music thing...
« Reply #92 on: 05 Nov 2007, 15:49 »

This article articulates my overall views on downloading way better than I ever could.


One of the main reasons I support downloading is that CD's are ridiculously overpriced. They've been around for 20-some years and still cost 15 bucks average. I have no idea how stores like FYE, etc. manage to stay in business, charging like $20 per cd.

I download music.
Although I'm a poor college student, to purchase the album if it's a band I end up liking, unless it's an RIAA-affiliated label. If it's RIAA and I still really need to have it, I find it used.
I support the bands I like, RIAA ties or no, through merchandise that actually brings them a decent amount of profit, like concert tickets, shirts, etc.

End result: bands I like get money. I get to sample music for free, and I don't have to listen to shitty radio anymore. I see them in concert and such, which further contributes to supporting the band. I voice my disapproval for the current status quo by avoiding supporting the RIAA, in hopes that it'll bring about some sort of change. IMO it's a win-win situation for both me and the bands I like. The RIAA kinda loses out, but, screw em.
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Re: The whole downloading music thing...
« Reply #93 on: 06 Nov 2007, 09:25 »

Wow, what a great article! I agree with almost every word of it. And it comes from someone who's been inside and knows how these people think. Sadly, it's just what we figured: it's all driven by greed. Profits and the bottom line.

Read that article! It's long, but not nearly as long as you think. After ten minutes, my scrollbar said I was only a fraction into it, but I was almost done. I forgot that 80% of the page (probably more by time you read this) was comments.

Thanks, thehollow!
« Last Edit: 06 Nov 2007, 09:26 by Orbert »
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thehollow

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Re: The whole downloading music thing...
« Reply #94 on: 06 Nov 2007, 12:03 »

yeah, it's a really well-written piece.

Do take a bit to scroll through the comments, as the author responds to many of them and further elaborates on the article, I think he was posting as Rob in the comments.
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Re: The whole downloading music thing...
« Reply #95 on: 06 Nov 2007, 17:03 »

thehollow, have you linked to this piece before? I seem to remember gettibng a link from these fori and reading that article.

It brings up some good points!

Also, I can't remember if we've talked about the fact that sometimes the downloaded music is just for a backup copy. For example, I just got a new computer and haven't synced my iPod to it, so none of my music is on it. But I really wanted to listen to Arcade Fire, so I torrented Funeral and am now listening to it.

Similarly, my friend's mother downloaded a couple gigs of music but it was all stuff she has on record.

Are these uses wrong?
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thehollow

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Re: The whole downloading music thing...
« Reply #96 on: 06 Nov 2007, 17:16 »

I found it on the afterthepostrock.com forums, I don't think I linked it here, but I did on the postrockxchange livejournal page.
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Re: The whole downloading music thing...
« Reply #97 on: 06 Nov 2007, 18:35 »

thehollow, have you linked to this piece before? I seem to remember gettibng a link from these fori and reading that article.

It brings up some good points!

Also, I can't remember if we've talked about the fact that sometimes the downloaded music is just for a backup copy. For example, I just got a new computer and haven't synced my iPod to it, so none of my music is on it. But I really wanted to listen to Arcade Fire, so I torrented Funeral and am now listening to it.

Similarly, my friend's mother downloaded a couple gigs of music but it was all stuff she has on record.

Are these uses wrong?

I'm pretty sure that's completely legal, at least in the UK, and is considered the same as when people make a tape of an LP to listen to it on a walkman. Well, it would be if the files had been acquired from something like Soulseek and not shared, with a torrent inevitably it means sharing them with people who hadn't bought copies of the music at any point and that's what people get prosecuted for.
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Re: The whole downloading music thing...
« Reply #98 on: 06 Nov 2007, 20:36 »

Good article. I agree with it.
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Re: The whole downloading music thing...
« Reply #99 on: 07 Nov 2007, 08:24 »

Think about this. The rate of emerging technologies suggests that within the next decade there will be portable devices with enough capacity to store all of the music ever recorded. Maybe not legally but I'll bet some clever chap will compile a torrent with everything on it and by then you will have the internet connection to download and enough capacity to store it. Or whatever has become the piracy standard by then. I think this is a very real possibility indeed and when such a device shows up it's going to render this whole debate pointless.
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