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[thestyxcrossing]

Hey guys. I just joined the forums so uh...thanks for having me.

I've been playing music since I was about seven years old, but I've only recently started getting into the lyrical aspect of songwriting. It's not really something I consider myself great at, but I do think I'm getting better. When I listen to an album, I obviously know what I think are incredible lyrics. But my question is, what do you guys think makes a great lyricist? Who's your favorite? And what do you guys think are good idea's for me to become better at it, (other than reading alot, i do that already =D)

I appreciate the input guys and I really look forward to hearing what you guys have to say.

[Tom]

A good lyricist should be able to marry both music and lyrics and convey a range of ideas and themes through his words. Well that's what i think. Personally, i like Colin Meloy 'cause he can tell a story that isn'y totally unweildy and convey the ideas and story really well.

You had a charming air
All cheap and debonair
My widowed mother found so sweet
And so she took you in
Her sheets still warm with him
Now filled with filth and foul disease
As time wore on you proved
A debt-ridden drunken mess
Leaving my mother
A poor consumptive wretch
(oh, oh)

On the other hand i like Spencer Krug who always gets the idea across although it isn't quite clear lyrically. I just can't argue against stuff like:
 
i have lusted after you
the way blood suckers do

and

You're the one whose wild hide will weather in the weathering days
to a leather made soft
so princes can lay down their princely white heads of hair

[KharBevNor]

In my opinion, really great lyrics come down to three factors:

1) A grasp of the techniques of storytelling through poetry. There's a long tradition to study for this. Some of the best song lyrics ever were authored by 'anonymous'. The real secret is a sense of minimalism, knowing exactly what you have to say and not wasting a word, unless you're deliberately being florid for some reason, which can also work, epecially within certain genres. But precise and careful use of language is normally a must. You have to know what you're doing as well. Songs, I find, are normally one of four things: A short (or maybe long) story, a character description, a description of a place, or a statement of position. It's handy to know which one you're going for. 

2) A proper understanding of rhyme and meter. Everyone knows how to rhyme, but you'd be amazed at the number of starting lyricists especially whose works just do not scan at all. This also includes understanding and using poetic devices like stressed syllables, alliteration, internal rhymes, etc. The best thing about knowing the fuck out of poetry is it means you know how to break the rules with style if you want to start writing lyrics with no rhymes or completely fucked up meters.

3) Just having a big vocabulary, a great visual imagination, and strong and definite opinions. You want to write songs about things that no one else has ever written songs about, applying metaphors and images no one else ever thought of, using terms of such exacting power that people just nod their heads and go 'yeah'. That is good lyrics my friends.

As for my faves, I don't suppose I could really pick between Dave Tibet (cryptic, complex, unconventional, mystical lyrics), Martin Walkyier (Unique, playful, humorous, human and insightful lyrics) and Tony Wakeford (simple, pure, staggeringly, bleakly, often viciously honest lyrics, but also with a touch of the complex, the cryptic and the mystical). Nick Cave, Bob Dylan and Dan Swano are runners up.

[carrotosaurus]

Be as crazy as you want to be. Try to avoid clichéd statements - or completely rip them apart:

"Have I told you lately that I love you
Did I fail to mention there's a sword hanging above you... "

Destroyer.

[Johnny C]

Write lyrics until your hands hurt, let them heal a bit, and then write some more. The only way you'll get better is practice. Also, don't throw anything away, just rewrite.

Will Sheff from Okkervil River is an amazing lyricist.

You love a stone,
because it's dark and it's old,
and if it could start
being alive
you'd stop living alone.
And I think I believe that,
if stones could dream,
they'd dream of being laid
side-by-side,
piece-by-piece,
and turned into a castle
for some towering queen
they're unable to know.

And when that queen's daughter
came of age,
I think she'd be lovely
and stubborn and brave,
and suitors would journey
from kingdoms away
just to make themselves known.

And I think that I know the bitter dismay of a lover who brought
fresh brouquets every day
when she turned him away
to remember some knave
who once gave
just one rose, one day, years ago.

[imapiratearg]

I love his lyrics too, though I would have used "A King and a Queen."

But these guys are right, especially Khar.  Basically, you want to create a vivid image, or convey a feeling so that the listener will actually feel like like they are experiencing what the song is about.  I think with music, you've got a bit more freedom to experiment with rhyme and meter.  I often forget meter when I'm writing lyrics, so I have to scrap most of them.  I have no problem rhyming though.

My favorite lyricist is John Samson of The Weakerthans:

My city's still breathing (but barely it's true)
through buildings gone missing like teeth.
The sidewalks are watching me think about you,
sparkled with broken glass.
I'm back with scars to show.
Back with the streets I know
Will never take me anywhere but here.
The stain in the carpet, this drink in my hand,
the strangers whose faces I know.
We meet here for our dress-rehearsal to say " I wanted it this way"
Wait for the year to drown.
Spring forward, fall back down.
I'm trying not to wonder where you are.
All this time lingers, undefined.
Someone choose who's left and who's leaving.
Memory will rust and erode into lists of all that you gave me:
a blanket, some matches, this pain in my chest,
the best parts of Lonely, duct-tape and soldered wires,
new words for old desires,
and every birthday card I threw away.
I wait in 4/4 time.
Count yellow highway lines that you're relying on to lead you home.

[KharBevNor]

I was trying to decide on some lyrics to post. 'The Carnival is Dead and Gone' by Current 93, that is what I think I shall post.

Dear Sir, Dear Lady
This carnival is dead and gone
And never any way
Alas, this party never yet began
The chairs and tables, dust of dust
Yes verydust of veryrust of verymust and farewell trust
(I thought I saw You in the crowd, dearheart
You turned away from me and then you dissolved into light)
The broken lights and faded buntings
Call to us all: The Inmost Light
And don't glare wide Your eyes in wonder
They will flick back inside Your mind
And on the bonescreen of Your skull
They watch no music-hall salutes
(So thoroughly modern now we are)
But the last reel of all time
The Inmost Night
(Its frames are glared and slow and out of focus
Valentino, Vallee, Moss-all dead!
The Inmost Night)
And the little bells go tinkle
And Your eyes begin to twinkle
And the joints and sinews crack
It's the expansion of Your mind, Death!
Death!
Death!
Death!
(The Inmost Night)
The cat's face glares from shiny card
The deadcats from my past
You tumble, You froth and fun forever:
An orchestra from another time
Another world, all dead
(The church bells silent; the rain-stained glass of God is smashed)
And You take Your choice,You sup with the devil,
You choke on Your pride for ever and ever
My memory of my Inmost Light
It tumbles, froth and fun forever
Vulvaic memories imagined of my wouldbelife
Well that won't be
And that won't be
And that won't be
And for my troubles and my pain
And for the losses and the Wains
I get a picture in my mind
The slyly smily smiling kiss
Of Your sweet Heart and Face
And Your legs in some final benediction
Your inmost warm heart says ta-ra
The Inmost Light
And I wished to die inside of You
And push up into Your heart so violently that
Face to face with matrix creatrix am
The Inmost Light
The Inmost Night!

I dare say there will be scoffing, but seriously this is good shit. The imagery! And he's only getting better with age.

[imapiratearg]

bonescreen

Is that like a kenning or something?

[jimbunny]

Don't fill space.

[kablaaamo]

Know when to stop, is my advice. I am not really a lyrics person: really REALLY good words can still make me stop and go 'oh', but otherwise, it is all about the melody of a tune. Don't focus on lyrics at the expense of doing something interesting with the musical part. It's about being able to do both; an effective song will make good lyrics better.

Along those lines, I like it when a lyricist pays attention to the sounds the words make rather than strictly their meaning. Carl Newman from the New Pornographers is pretty good at this sort of songwriting; if you listen to his lyrics, they make pretty much no literal sense, and he claims that there is nothing deeper to them; it's all about the assonance and dissonance as part of his melody.

Zach Condon is a good lyricist in this respect as well, I think. He doesn't really write many words for each song, and they're nothing particularly profound; it's more about adding his voice, as instrument, to his arsenal. Lots of long vowel sounds for that; "liiiiiiiiiiiiife, life is alright on the rhiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine". Yep.

I am not a musician. I have no constructive advice about how to achieve this sort of thing, or even if this is a good goal, or even further if used the right terms and all that to express properly what I meant.

(oh and John K. Sampson, Dan Bejar, Spencer Krug and John Darnielle.....they're also pretty amazing.)

[KharBevNor]

Is that like a kenning or something?

In a way. I think it's more just Dave Tibet went through this period of joining words together for no real reason.

[Thrillho]

- Being as unique as you can.
- Not rhyming all the time, but rhyming when it's necessary.
- Being as rooted in fiction as you are in reality.
 - Minimal repetition.
 - A killer line or two that acts as a hook for the whole lyric, even if it's a killer lyric, just one that stands out.

[Valrus]

joining words together for no real reason.

YOUR SOLAR PLEXUS FEASTS AN EXPLOSION OF TECHNOMAGGOTRY!

That is how you be a great lyricist. Did I do it right guys?

[Johnny C]

Well, lyrical abstraction can also be done well. Jeff Tweedy's a clear example - "I am an American Dixie Cup drinker / I assassin down the avenue." I mean, it's silly phrases but the wordplay in them is a beauty. It's when you move that lyrical abstraction from the playful to the self-seriousness in The Mars Volta's lyrics that you encounter problems.

[Thrillho]

joining words together for no real reason.

YOUR SOLAR PLEXUS FEASTS AN EXPLOSION OF TECHNOMAGGOTRY!

That is how you be a great lyricist. Did I do it right guys?

AN ABORTION THAT SURVIVED A LINEAGE OF BASTARD MASTICATION


(uh, do we quote real lyrics of his?)

[Ishotdanieljohnston]

Bob Dylan. You do not get a better lyricist. You can listen to a Dylan song a hundred times and get something new out of it each time. Also, they are such subjective songs, they can be interpreted any way. His real masterpiece ofcourse is like a rolling stone cause it has some of the most surreal and beautiful images. I quote here It's All Over Now Baby Blue:

You must leave now, take what you need, you think will last.
But whatever you wish to keep, you better grab it fast.
Yonder stands your orphan with his gun,
Crying like a fire in the sun.
Look out the saints are comin' through
And it's all over now, Baby Blue.

The highway is for gamblers, better use your sense.
Take what you have gathered from coincidence.
The empty-handed painter from your streets
Is drawing crazy patterns on your sheets.
This sky, too, is folding under you
And it's all over now, Baby Blue.

All your seasick sailors, they are rowing home.
All your reindeer armies, are all going home.
The lover who just walked out your door
Has taken all his blankets from the floor.
The carpet, too, is moving under you
And it's all over now, Baby Blue.

Leave your stepping stones behind, something calls for you.
Forget the dead you've left, they will not follow you.
The vagabond who's rapping at your door
Is standing in the clothes that you once wore.
Strike another match, go start anew
And it's all over now, Baby Blue.

I also agree that Will Sheff is one of the greats.

[BrittanyMarie]

I agree with Kablaaamo in that the sounds the words make are very important. My favorite line is "Now she's a little boy in Spain/playing pianos filled with flames" -which is from Neutral Milk Hotel, just because of how it sounds when Jeff sings it.

Similarly, rhyme within the line is more interesting, I think, than the last words at the end of the line rhyming.

[Ishotdanieljohnston]

This is so true of Magnum... my favourite line of his is, "and in my dreams you're alive and you're crying"- he sings it so beautifully, softly and oh so sincerely.

[Ben yayayayayayayay]

[muteKi]

Carbon Leaf is good for pretty much every single reason mentioned here.

Also, bands like TMBG are awesome because of how they play on certain concepts ("Wearing a Raincoat" is a prime example) as well as wordplay and a willingness to sing about things that don't normally get into song lyrics ("King Weed")

also

MARCH SO LONG YOU NEED OUTSIDE SCIENCE FICTION though the beauty of Polysics is their high-energy madness as a whole, not just lyrical insanity.

[thestyxcrossing]

Thanks for the idea's and examples guys. As I said I've been working on my own lyrics lately and just needed some imput as to what other's thought were good qualities in a lyricist's work. Gotta keep practicing.

[Merkwürdigliebe]

I have to tell you, I don't know what the whole hipster/"indie" view about Death Cab for Cutie is, but I can't get over how good they are. They aren't very complex on the music side, but Ben Gibbard is probably the best lyricist to ever walk this Earth that I know of--in my opinion, he beats the pants off of Colin Meloy (he always struck me as trying to hard.) For some reason I can just imagine Ben Gibbard sitting at a writing desk in a dark room, his parchment illuminated by a candle, and scratching down words with a quill pen. I highly recommend repeated listening to them. There's a site with nearly exhaustive Death Cab lyrics--I don't know how often it's updated or expanded, but it has all the major albums. you really need to listen to the music though. YouTube probably has videos set to the music; I know it has Directions, the visual companion to Plans.

Here's the site: http://nimbysworld.googlepages.com

[Guildenstern67]

Al Stewart has a felicity with words that rivals poets Ogden Nash, Robert Browning, and John Donne—and I don’t toss around those names lightly.  His musical style is usually complex acoustic guitar with a bit of folk-rock influence similar to his contemporary Bob Dylan.  Al’s songs are often about history.  A few examples from each decade of his 40+ year career:
“SoHo (Needless to Say)”; Past, Present, Future, 1973:
Rainstorm, brainstorm, faces in the maelstrom
Huddle by the puddles in the shadows where the drains run
Hot dogs, wet clogs clicking up the sidewalk
Disappearing into the booze shop
Rainbow queues stand down by the news stand, waiting for the late show
Pin ball, sin hall, minds in free fall
Chocolate-coloured ladies making eyes through the smoke-pall
SoHo (needless to say)
I'm alone on your streets on a Friday evening
I've been here all of the day
I'm going nowhere with nowhere to go

“Where Are They Now?”; Last Days of the Century, 1988:
I sent my crack divisions through the early morning mist
When they fell on your positions you were powerless to resist
Encircling and probing for the weakness in your lines?By night you were surrounded and your territory mine
I called for your surrender; this you swore you would not do?So I stormed the very fortress that you thought could shelter you?I saw you then upon your knees and turned to give my thanks
To the regiments assembled in their ranks
Where are they now?

“Trains”; Famous Last Words, 1993:
But oh what kind of trains are these
That I never saw before
Snatching up the refugees
From the ghettoes of the war
To stand confused
With all their worldly goods, beneath the watching guard's disdain
As young and old go rolling on the clicking wheels of trains
And the driver only does this job
With vodka in his coat
And he turns around and he makes a sign
With his hand across his throat
For days on end
Through sun and snow, the destination still remains the same
For those who ride with death above the clicking wheels of trains

“The Immelman Turn”; A Beach Full of Shells, 2005
The frost was on your aielerons, and the wind was in your hair
When you went into the climb I saw you laughing
When the engine stalls and you start to spin
You won't get out of there
And a hush comes on the crowd as you go falling
Fly, fly to the western sky
Where the fog bank shifts and the danger lies?Why, why would you never learn
That you won't come back from the Immelman Turn?
Fly, fly to the red sunrise
Where the cloudbanks shift under copper skies
Why, why would you never learn
That you won't come back from the Immelman Turn?

[Ishotdanieljohnston]

Real simplicity is a real virtue in lyrics. To be able to retain orignality but just put things in uncliched, honest terms makes for great music. This is very true of the largely forgotten late folk and country singer Tim Hardin:

Here I am back home again
I’m here to rest
All they ask is where I’ve been-
Knowing I’ve been west

I’m the family’s unowned boy
Golden curls of envied hair
Pretty girls with faces fair
See the shine in the black sheep boy -

If you love me let me live in peace
And please understand
That the black sheep can wear the golden fleece
And hold the winning hand

I’m the family’s unowned boy
Golden curls of envied hair
Pretty girls with faces fair
See the shine in the black sheep boy -

I’m the family’s unowned boy
Golden curls of envied hair
Pretty girls with faces fair
See the shine in the black sheep boy -

[monkandmovies13]

It depends what you want in your songs.

Someone else mentioned something about Zach Condon...he uses his voice as another instrument, and his lyrics are just like notes he plays with it. They don't neccessarily mean much, because his songs are mostly about the music, I think.

But John Darnielle from The Mountain Goats, for example, is a great lyricist, but his songs are musically simple. Mostly just strumming on an acoustic guitar.

A good thing to keep in mind is that it's sometimes really great when a writer is able to have a sense of humor about their music. Robyn Hitchcock, Morrissey, Jens Lekman, and Colin Meloy are all good examples of this. It can really add something to the music when you make it a little funny.

I just started writing recently also, and I ask myself this all the time. It's good to be observant about what makes you like something so much.

Good luck!

[Johnny C]

Real simplicity is a real virtue in lyrics. To be able to retain orignality but just put things in uncliched, honest terms makes for great music. This is very true of the largely forgotten late folk and country singer Tim Hardin:

About whom Will Sheff wrote the album I quoted from well up the page. Funny how these things connect!

[tomselleck69]

what makes a great lyricist:

tom waits' dad and tom waits' mom


badum-CHUH

[imapiratearg]

Real simplicity is a real virtue in lyrics. To be able to retain orignality but just put things in uncliched, honest terms makes for great music. This is very true of the largely forgotten late folk and country singer Tim Hardin:

["Black Sheep Boy" lyrics]

I'm confused.  Those are Okkervil River's lyrics.  I have no idea who Tim Hardin is.

[Ishotdanieljohnston]

Okkervil River covered his orignal... Tim Hardin was a really great singer back in the 60's and 70's, the whole album is loosely based arround his life, which ended young from a heroine overdose.

[Scandanavian War Machine]

It depends what you want in your songs.

Agreed. There's no "one thing" but many things that are good for different reasons. Tom Waits and Sam Beam are great story tellers without being overly complex; Aesop Rock, on the other hand, uses incredibly complex metaphor and analogy to describe simple concepts.

I had more to add to this but I forget what it was. Damn customers distracting me from my slacking off.

[turtlspinr]

personally, my two favorite's are Jonas Renske from Katatonia, and JR Hayes of Pig Destroyer. Both are, in my opinion, very unique, and for very different reasons.

Renske's lyrics, in my mind, are great because while he manages to construct lyrics that I can personally relate to, they're still fairly ambiguous in meaning, and therefore everyone who reads or listens to his words will be able to gather a different meaning. Also, because his first language is Swedish, and not English, but he sings in English, he comes up with some interesting phrasing. Some of his lyrics are cringe worthy, but I attribute this to his translation from Swedish to English. However, when he's good, he's really good, and even at his weakest moments, he's still better than most. (Note: This sentiment really only applies to the records after, and including, Brave Murder Day. Before that record, his lyrics were pretty crap.)

These are the lyrics of his that I enjoy the most, interestingly enough coming from consecutive songs on the same record; "Tonight's Music" and "Clean Today" from the Last Fair Deal Gone Down record....

"Tonight's Music":
who could call my name without regretting?
who could see beyond this, my darkness,
and for once save their own prayers?
who could mirror down just a little
of their sun?

how could this go so very wrong
that I must depend on darkness?
would anyone follow me further down?
how could this go so very far,
that I need someone to say:
what is wrong?
not with the world, but me....

who could call my name without regretting?
who could promise to never destroy me?
tonight my head is full of wishes,
and everything I drink is full of her.
...................
"Clean Today"

all the white lights falling,
the blue lights are falling.
night is warm,
came down with a promise.
I have my best shirt on,
I lower myself now.
it is a way to forget
of last year's failure.

will the streetlights reflect me well enough?
am i transparent when i am clean?
will the darkness around me be so strong,
that there is no way I can be seen?

boys will we become,
heroes of this night.
or am I just happy,
whenever not sober?
I cleaned myself well,
clean today.

and when I pause for a breath,
I see millions like me.


again, his lyrics work much better in song that they do on paper, due to his interesting phrasing.

my second favorite lyricist is JR Hayes from Pig Destroyer. His lyrics are exceptionally angry, but at the same time exceptionally beautiful, and it's obvious that they're inspired by some pretty heavy emotions that he's dealing with. The best example, I feel, of his lyrics, is the entire Prowler In The Yard record. Here's are a few excerpts.

Trojan Whore:
Half in darkness she stands in a dress of shrapnel,
smoke and torn flags.
Dragging off cigarettes of human skin.
Eyes like cracked eggshells empty as life.
Her index fingers drip mothers milk like hypodermic needles.
She stumbles through my veins, high on ash
and dry semen fiending for love.

Pornographic Memory:
An entire year of you in a single speck of blood.
The gun smiles your smile and the razor whispers your name.
They are just frigid hands from the other side of the world leading me into winter.

Hyperviolet:
Traced in a wet sand her name in perfect cursive.
A love letter to the crescent moon.
By tomorrow it will be gone I told her.
There is no tomorrow she said.
I can feel her in a bikini of coiled snakes dancing into the hiss of the wind.
Postcards from a paradise in flames.
She used to be so right.
So right about everything.

[Tom]

sitting at a writing desk in a dark room, his parchment illuminated by a candle, and scratching down words with a quill pen.

Please tell me you don't take their grandiloquence and theatrics seriously?
btw The Decemberists "adore" Death Cab for Cutie.