Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Nodaisho]

Now, I don't have any yet, so as of now, unless I could buy some stuff quickly (I think I can, though I need to look up the state laws), I would be pretty much screwed, but it isn't uncommon to have thousands of rounds of ammunition, especially when you are shooting milsurp ammunition, since that frequently comes in batches of a thousand. Supply depots would be at wherever I am based at (someplace defendable in the middle of nowhere), and in whatever I am using for transportation. When your gun jams, you clear the jam, not all that difficult, it is one of the basic things to know how to do, and even the M4, known for a somewhat exaggerated unreliability, only jammed one in six hundred shots while in a heavy dust storm. That is twice what people carry around when they are expecting to be fighting, and a jam can be cleared in a few seconds. By the time I run out of cleaning materials, your axe blade would have been worn away completely. If it breaks? Well, that is somewhat broad, but in general, you retreat using your back up and go back to repair whatever needs repairing, though for parts to wear out on a good gun takes... upwards of 30,000 rounds, I would say, and that is on the low end. Stainless steel, aluminum, and polymer don't rust, wood warps somewhat, but only if you don't take care of it. You are reaching for stuff, aren't you? If it gets wet? All right, you don't have to explain, I understand you don't know what you are talking about. If it gets wet, you keep shooting, a gun isn't going to stop working because of a light drizzle.

Also, you aren't likely to run out of ammunition unless you are going out and picking fights, what you should be doing is going in and out, grabbing supplies and leaving, the only time you would be sitting there shooting at zombies would be when you are holding them off, buying time, or when there are just a few attacking wherever you are.

But what about you? What happens when someone slips and falls?  What happens when an axe gets stuck in a zombie skull? What happens when someone else gets tired faster than you?

edit: Boro, who were you addressing that to, him or me?

[Patrick]

so wait, zombies are slower and more stupid than human beings, so we beat them by reverting to axes and clubs and viking tactics? It would seem to me that most weapon advances are as a result of the human mind constantly being able to invent new and innovative ways to kill people with available technology. If zombies are less threatening than humans, shouldn't our modern weapons be even more effective against them?

All our talk about guns has been either intentional jackassery or last resort, quick solution tactics. At least, that's how it is on my part. You ARE going to run out of ammo at some point.

[Nodaisho]

By then, you will hopefully have gotten your hands on something like a bow and gotten good with it, and learned how to make good arrows for it. I would also suggest getting something like ziploc bags, and attaching them so they catch the ejecting brass, because your average looter with a gun isn't going to go for the reloading supplies, he is going to go for the pre-made ammo, and you can roll your own to be much more accurate than even high quality ammo.

For me, I am seeing the goal as surviving while the zombies are still around, not hunting them down. For that purpose, a gun should do just fine, especially if you are out where you can hunt for food. In that case, you would want to loot some cans for your guns, drops the noise down to 50 decibels rather than 150+. Of course, the bow would be even quieter, and possibly retrievable, but until you get good with it, you wouldn't use it. Suppressors are good no matter what, actually, even a .22 repeatedly fired can cause hearing damage over time.

[Jimmy the Squid]

Obviously you have to destroy the brain of the zombie to kill it but if you damage the spinal column would it be paralysed? Or is there some magic that keeps the signals flowing from the brain to the rest of the body?

[Nodaisho]

Not sure, but if you were to damage it below where the nerves from the arms connect to the spinal cord, they could still use their arms, and would crawl at you.

[Patrick]

Depending on how much flesh has rotted away from the zombie's body by the time it's reanimated, you may or may not get a good spinal cord shot. I mean, how many people on earth, even specially trained snipers, are such perfect shots that they can hit a spinal cord sized target?

Srsly, if the flashback sniper mission on COD4 is any indicator of just how difficult it is to aim from a distance (with wind and Coriolis effect and all), you ain't gonna be hitting SHIT.

[Ozymandias]

Nodaisho. I wish I could be there when you get ate because of gung-ho dickwaving I MUNNA SHOOT THE DANGED Ol' ZOMBIES HURR HURR HURR HURR.

[Nodaisho]

Depending on how much flesh has rotted away from the zombie's body by the time it's reanimated, you may or may not get a good spinal cord shot. I mean, how many people on earth, even specially trained snipers, are such perfect shots that they can hit a spinal cord sized target?

Srsly, if the flashback sniper mission on COD4 is any indicator of just how difficult it is to aim from a distance (with wind and Coriolis effect and all), you ain't gonna be hitting SHIT.

Note the range that you were shooting at: Over a mile, as I recall. Normal people shoot out to 600 yards just fine, granted, that is a body shot, but that is also with irons, a good optic on top will make it better, and with the terrain out here, you will be within 600 yards and still have to walk a lot more than 600 yards, and zombies are clumsy, I wouldn't be surprised to see them slip and fall trying to walk up shale rather than go around.

Ozymandias: I wish I could be there when you learn some fucking reading comprehension. Seriously, throughout the thread, I have said that you aren't trying to kill them all, you are just trying to survive, and the best way to do that is to stay away from them. Shooting is what happens when something goes wrong. Fighting hand to hand is what happens when something goes even more wrong.

edit: Realized I didn't cover all of Pat's points, you wouldn't be aiming for the spinal cord, you would be aiming for the head, because the speed would cause shock to the tissue, stretching it and messing it up bad, most tissue is resistant to damage from stretching like that, but nervous tissue isn't. A head is about a 4 or five inch square target, right? So... with a good rifle, if you are a good shot, and have good ammo, you should be able to make it out around 600m, but as I am, I couldn't make a shot like that. Someone that is a decent shot could, and I could with practice, but I couldn't do so immediately. However, I also couldn't kill zombies hand to hand well immediately, and it is not nearly as bad to miss a shot at a few hundred meters as it is to not dodge a zombie grabbing you.

[KharBevNor]

I've just got this image of him now, with jewellers glasses on, carefully sticking new percussion caps in some spent cartridges, whilst hundreds of zombies claw at the walls.

He finishes a bullet, he carefully loads it into a gun. He walks over to the window. He shoots a single zombie. He returns to the workbench.


Seriously, dude, the thing is, I'm not going to be taking on groups of hundreds of zombies. Not deliberately. The shield wall is for steady, safe urban and suburban movement, not rolling up swarms.

And dude, I've used guns. I know how to clear a jam. I also know that if there was a group of ten zombies ten feet away and all I had to defend myself was a rifle that the last thing I would want is one. I've used them enough to know that the kind of reliability you're claiming for them is insane in post-apocalyptic conditions. Those figures may be accurate for guns that are kept in good, constant conditions and regularly maintained. But fuck man. That is not the zombie apocalypse. I actually feel kind of sorry for you if this situation does actually occur. I'll be prepared to admit that my experiences could be coloured by having used British weapons, which are likely to be older and maybe less well made than the guns you have access to in freedom eagle land (I'm guessing you're American because of the enormous boner you have for firearms) but only to a certain degree. Guns are delicate machines, and the more modern they are (thus better made, with more synthetic materials, less chance of mechanical faults, etc.) the harder it will be to repair. And drizzle? Boy, it's the zombocalypse. Cities are burning. Nuclear power plant safety technicians are away from their consoles eating your grandma. oil tanker crews are dead at the wheel. Pipelines are filling refineries till they burst. Seriously, light drizzle is probably the last of your worries. Weeks of acid rain leading into a mini nuclear winter? That's more like it.

Also, er, I hate to break it to you, but stainless steel does rust. Especially stainless steel exposed to constant mechanical wear. The chromium forms a protective passivation layer, but rust can still get underneath that, unless the steel is regularly cleaned and polished. It feels kinda like telling a kid there's no father christmas, but there you go.

[Ozymandias]

Noddy, good luck.

I don't know how you're going to stay away from zombies with all of the ammo and ammo making supplies and military grade rifle and blah blah blah blah blah because any "base" you've managed to set up to do this in is a death trap, if not from zombies, from dehydration and starvation.

But good luck.

[Nodaisho]

@Khar

Hows this then? It doesn't rust when you take care of it, and you have to take care of it less than normal metals? Come to think of it, after about 20 years of neglect, my dad's guitar strings did rust, but they still played fine for a while when I hadn't noticed the rust.

A good reloading press will crank ammo out pretty quickly, though I don't have any precise numbers on me.

How many times do I have to say that I am not planning on trying to kill them all? Stop putting up that damn straw man.

Sure, I wouldn't want a jam either, and if I got one with zombies close, I would probably use a sidearm instead, hopefully I would be good enough with it to buy myself enough time to clear the jam.

Some british weapons are apparently the creme de la creme of weapons that are legal in britain, course those are custom hand-made engraved double-guns, not the kind you would be looking for in a zombocalypse. For what they are though, I don't see any reason to assume that they are worse than your average gun of that kind.

You said that the gun didn't work when it got wet, the drizzle comment was intended to say what a stupid idea I thought that was. I am not going to discuss how the weather would be, as I don't really know, but I do know that the closest nuclear power plant is on the far end of Kansas, maybe... 500 or more miles away? And the closest one to the northwest, which is where the weather always comes from, is in Southeast WA. And since I live in a desert, due to the west side of the mountains catching most of the rain, I would say I am pretty well off as far as the acid rain thing goes.

I really don't see why you think that keeping weapons in good condition would be so impossible, it isn't like you are constantly going to be shooting and can't take the time for basic maintenance. Sure, a semi would be more difficult to maintain than a bolt or lever, since there is more things to go wrong with a semi, but it wouldn't be impossible, and like I have repeatedly said, while you all ignore me, I don't plan on looking for trouble, which should give me plenty of time to keep gear in good shape.

Oh, and while I thank you for noticing that I get big boners, it isn't for firearms, not even for pyrotechnics, just for females. And music. And guitars. And stop looking at me while I am naked dammit!

edit: @Oz

Stay away? That is easy, carry most of the stuff in the truck, a base would be an area out in the mountains, you get food walking around, at least for a while, and there are huge patches of land with less than one person per square mile, which means less zombies.

And how do you propose to survive, may I ask? You are all too eager to criticize my ideas, why not put out some of your own?

[calenlass]

I always thought that a really nice thing to get for myself someday is some layered monstrosity of kevlar over some lightweight chain mail. Ideally the kevlar will miraculously look like lovely tooled leather, although I guess I could like put a third layer of actual leather over the top; I just want to save some extra weight. This is a good reason to start saving up for it and working on it now.

I would invest in a multi-layered protective suit, yes, but it would be more along the lines of a spandex bodysuit, some fireproofed material, thin leather covering, chainmail, and a layer of slippery rubberized spandex on top so that they can't grab you as easily. All this, some melee gear, and a full-face motorcycle helmet, and you'd probably have a half-decent "In case of emergency supply runs" suit.

I would invest in a good respirator as well, god knows what those bastard zombies are coughing up.

I just meant in general, because when I thought of it I wasn't really thinking of zombies. But the kevlar will stop bullets and the chain mail will stop knives and arrows and that is what I was going with. Replacing the kevlar with some biking leather might be alright, or maybe some really stiff shit, I dunno, because it would stop bites and whatever, but in that case so would the chain mail, and at that point if I ever got into conflict with some other party of survivors neither would help me against bullets.


Dude, Nodaisho, he already did offer suggestions. The shield wall thing was for navigation between supply sources in urban areas where zombies are concentrated heavily. Pay attention, dude!

[Nodaisho]

He can ignore what I post, I can ignore what he posts. Besides, that is only his plan for fighting, what does he plan to do when they get tired? Where do they rest?

The kevlar is actually a good idea, in case you run into some live people that decide you don't need your supplies.

[calenlass]

Dude if you are ignoring what he posts and yet still asking for a response, what the fuck are you doing in this thread.

[Nodaisho]

I was asking for his plans other than the shield wall, actually, and for Ozy's plans, since he seems oh so eager to criticize mine. Perhaps his plans were stated in one of the posts further back in the thread that I hadn't seen?

[calenlass]

I have decided that my back-up plan involves one of these.




I dunno how I plan to acquire one, or where or anything, but it is involved.

[Nodaisho]

That is badass, I have to admit, but I would rather have a humvee, Scorpion, going with the Halo theme. You never run out of ammo, and you can mow like no tomorrow.

[simplename9]

That picture was my wallpaper for a long time and I always wondered where I can get one. If you ever happen find out you should definitely spread the word.

[McTaggart]

It's really wierd how when people see cool shit that someone's made they always go 'where can I buy one' instead of 'how can I make one of those'.

[LordNagash]

@KharBevNor
I think it would be substantially easier to kill me than a zombie if we were both standing still letting you hit us. Shock+bloodloss will kill me even if the hit was not instantly lethal. Mostly I just wonder why you want the axe over a sword? Are you just more familiar with axes and axe combat?

@others
As for armor, I would probably not invest too much into it if I did not have a group of fighters with me. It would slow me down and avoiding zombies is pretty much #1 priority.

[CmonMiracle]

Can't I buy a three foot wide laser?

[Alex C]

A lot of swords are designed for stabbing, which is pretty useless against zombies. Viking swords are good at hacking, but still, if you really just want to split something open, an axehead with some weight behind it is the way to go. Besides, I'd rather train with an axe since they're easier to find and replace. After all, they may not be designed as carefully balanced weapons of war, but I'd sure as hell rather rely on a good log splitter or hatchet with a fiber glass handle I found at Ace Hardware than some novelty wallhanger sword from some goofy catalog. If you can find a good sword, more power to you, but I myself won't be betting on it.

[sean]

@ Nodashio - Dude, you're doing it wrong. He, in matter of fact, offered his plan earlier in the thread (which is kinda shitty, and he acknowledges that). If you actually cared enough, maybe you should read the topic before saying shit like that.

Plus, your plan of going into the mountains forces you to stay in one spot. That is very bad.

Not that my plan is much better though. I have to get out of a highly populated suburban area, which is gonna be impossible unless I can sneak out by some unknown force of nature or get a motorcycle and high-tail it the fuck outta there. Even if I accomplished that though, I'd still be fucked since I have no survival skills whatsoever. Also, the only weapon I have access to is an old (probably dull) camping ax in my basement. Basically, I'll be the fucker trying to eat your brains out if/when the zombie apocalypse happens.

[LordNagash]

@Whipstitch
Most swords were designed for cutting and thrusting. I can only think of the rapier and its ilk as used mainly for thrusting. As for axes, a hatched or other wood axe is very different than a war axe. They would be like hunting with a handgun, its possible, but not very practical. War axes were very carefully designed weapons of war.

[Boro_Bandito]

larger swords are slashing weapons, really intended for body/arm/leg hits. Short swords are stabbing weapons which are useless. Both are extremely hard to just hack into the top of a skull, which is what's required in the shield wall. Axes are heavy hacking weapons designed for this. You can separate the head from the body using a longer sword, but it takes a wide and powerful side arch that just isn't possible in the shield wall. He is better off with an axe.

Also, unless you're like me and have spent hundreds of dollars on a properly made sword (mine is a 160x folded steel katana, perfectly combat worthy, not the best quality by any means though, master swordsmiths would fold swords thousands of times for the wealthy/generals ) by some blacksmith somewhere who does it the proper traditional way, you're going to get crap for quality. Most of the "swords" you see in kinfe stores and display cases are pressed or molded steel, which while not weak could be shattered by a powerful swing from mine, they would chip quickly and wouldn't hold up to long combat stresses.

[Alex C]

Like Bandito said; unless the sword is pretty long, it's designed at least in part to be a stabbing weapon. A gladius, for example, was for stabbing, and it's debated to this day whether the spatha was used primarily for slashing or stabbing. I never claimed that a log splitting axe is as good as a quality bearded axe, but at least it'd be very, very durable since it's a lot cheaper to make a solid axe head than a fine blade. I also think you're overestimating the quality of a lot of axes used around the world for combat as well; axes were popular because they got the job done and it was cheaper to make a sturdy axe than a sturdy sword. By Viking times if you had the money for a truly excelllent axe you likely considered getting a sword instead since they were also popular as status symbols. Anyway, as I said before, my primary requirements are "Can I find a quality example within a very short drive from my home?" I'd rather have a halfway decent axe that can double as a tool than a baseball bat.

[Boro_Bandito]

We've got a grinding wheel in the backyard and many different tools, hatchets, axes, etc. I also have some baseball bats and in general I think we're set for farmyard melee weapons.

[calenlass]

I was just looking around my bedroom, guys, and I realised that I am sorely unprepared.


I need to go shopping shit shit shit.

[Trollstormur]

i'd stake my life on a claw hammer before a sword in a zombie outbreak.

when i get a few, I'll take some pictures of what I have for zombies.

[Spinless]

Clearly, the best thing to wear in a zombie outbreak is the Batsuit seen in Batman Begins. Has anybody mentioned this yet?

[RedLion]

As far as location, I really think Alaska would be the safest place to go. The population is thin enough that, as long as you stay away from the major urban areas (all 3 of them), encounters with humans, and by extension, with zombies, would be pretty low. As long as you could find shelter, it would be perfect, particularly during winter. The zombies obviously wouldn't die from the cold, but they would be frozen solid until the warmth of the 23-hour-summer sun thaws them. During the period between the darkest days of winter and the onset of summer, you could go out with a simple pickaxe and kill a good number of the frozen zombies around your immediate area without any fear of running into danger. If you had some food and a mode of transport for the summer, you'd be all set.

[sean]

RedLion, how exactly do you plan on keeping warm?

I'm all for going north. Having zombies frozen is lovely. However, this is a post-apocalyptic world we are talking about. Unless you're prepared to start living like the Eskimos, Alaska does not sound like a very good idea. And I doubt many people are prepared to live like Eskimos.

[Spinless]

As far as location, I really think Alaska would be the safest place to go. The population is thin enough that, as long as you stay away from the major urban areas (all 3 of them), encounters with humans, and by extension, with zombies, would be pretty low. As long as you could find shelter, it would be perfect, particularly during winter. The zombies obviously wouldn't die from the cold, but they would be frozen solid until the warmth of the 23-hour-summer sun thaws them. During the period between the darkest days of winter and the onset of summer, you could go out with a simple pickaxe and kill a good number of the frozen zombies around your immediate area without any fear of running into danger. If you had some food and a mode of transport for the summer, you'd be all set.

The freezing process would destroy the brain. After thawing, those zombies wouldn't get up again.

[Boro_Bandito]

Hell, who's to say that freezing a zombie brain kills it? Their brains are already reanimated mush, who's to say the virus couldn't spring back out of dormancy and reconstruct enough of the brain to get that zombie's mushy ass back off of the ground?

[Chrasstor]

Don't be ridiculous. These are zombies Phil, not magical fairy unicorns.

[sean]

I'm pretty sure that the freezing of the brain would be a fatal (re-fatal?) blow to the zombie. The general consensus is that the zombie pretty much just needs the brain and nervous system in functioning order to do it's dirty work. But if the brain is fully destroyed, by whatever means, the zombie becomes incapacitated.

I mean, zombie's don't regain partial brain function after taking a head shot. They die... again. If the virus can't work after one form of brain damage, I don't see why it should work after a different, but equally fatal type of brain damage.

@ Chrasstor: We must be ridiculous with this matter! There has never been any recorded case of zombies, so we really don't know what they can and can't do. Therefore, we should go over as many situations as we can, no matter how ridiculous, to ensure the greatest survival potential. Zombies are serious business!

[Chrasstor]

You're all going to get eaten in the end, anyway...

Didn't you see the movies...?










!NOTHING CAN PREPARE YOU FOR OUR WRATH!

[sean]

There are twins in the first row with matching outfits!

Adorable!

[negative creep]

One thing I still don't get is: If zombies eat people's brains, how do people who get bitten by zombies turn into zombies themselves if they don't have a brain anymore? They'd be dead from the start and not able to function as a normal zombie, right?

[Boro_Bandito]

They don't, the people who get their brains eaten usually get the rest of them eaten to. The creation of zombies is mostly from those that aren't initially killed and eaten, but rather bitten and infected and allowed to turn into zombies later.

[jhocking]

Well then why are there so many of them? Why does an entire town get turned into zombies, rather than a handful of zombies and everyone else is eaten?

[Boro_Bandito]

Because people don't turn into zombies immediately to start. A zombie infection for the most part remains a mystery to everyone involved until half of the population is already affected by some means.

[sean]

I dunno, Joe's scenario could be true. I actually think that is entirely plausible. Zombie's have been known to eat brains. Who's to say that they don't infect one person and then eat the next one?

[Patrick]

Who's to say any of the infections are intentional? I mean, why would you WANT competition for food? That is why I'm never having kids.

[jhocking]

Silly, kids aren't competition for food, they're a source of cheap labor.

[est]

Ok, so.  I've just read this entire thread because guess who bought "Dead Rising" yesterday and is suddenly interested in zombies again?

Now, while I realise that a video game is no real basis for speculation regarding actions to take in the event of a zombie outbreak it has made me think about a bunch of stuff I would otherwise not have thought about.

For one, the idea of staying in one spot has always had some merit to me.  Until last night.  The longer you stay in one spot the more chance there is of attracting a lot of zombies to your general vicinity.  Zombies are stupid and take a while to realise what's up, but they do eventually realise that those banging/crashing sounds are probably something they're interested in and shuffle toward your general vicinity.

Another thing that you guys only seem to be touching on lightly here is protecting yourself against other people.  Last night I was happily cutting a swathe through shambolic hordes with a bowling ball (not advised as an actual weapon) when I came across 3 fucking escaped convicts in an army jeep with a goddamned m-60 mounted on the back chasing down survivors so that they could murder/rape them.  What I am saying, I guess is that in addition to preparing yourself to stave off the odd zombie attack and keep running you should also think for a second what you would do if you encountered a gang of militia hell-bent on killing everyone and taking their shit in order to increase their own chances of survival.  Think Mad Max + zombies.

[Patrick]

So it looks like no matter what, being stealthy and low-key is a good skill to have. I'm in fine shape, then.

Katie, the only real problem with the kevlar bodysuit? To have kevlar that is thick enough to stop bullets, it's going to be heavier than everliving fuck. It's good to have that lightweight mail backing, for sure, because that will certainly stop a knife. But a full bulletproof kevlar bodysuit is going to be absurdly heavy. Just a bulletproof vest is a good 20lbs, and that's 20lbs of survival gear you could be carrying with you.

One thing that I plan to do is to find my way up to Sitka, AK again. Alaska really IS the best place to go for all-out survival mode. I say Sitka because the only way to get there is by boat or plane, and there are plenty of people there who I know are good hunters and fishermen. I also know the lay of the general surrounding area really well, and god knows there's plenty of guns and ammunition in Sitka to supply a small army. The city's economy is geared toward fishing tourism, and so there are outdoor supply shops in ABUNDANCE. Clothing and weaponry are NOT going to be an issue. All of this and the fact that the town itself only takes up 1% of the island's land area make it a PERFECT place to be.

I already know a bunch of places where there will be room to stay in that kind of emergency situation, so a lot of you would probably be able to come up and be spared.

[Boro_Bandito]

Yeah, I still haven't beat Dead Rising. I get to a part later on that let's just say is hard, and  tick tick tick timed. Plus until I got my 40 inch HDTV it is hard as shit to read the fucking tiny ass print in that game. I should beat it now though, while I'm preparing for the zombocalypse.

I love the crazies in that game though, and it brings up the point in both mine and Jon's plans that may not make the most sense. It would be dangerous going alone not because of the zombeis but because of that chance at getting killed for supplies by groups of others. Its almost paradoxal, is there safety in numbers given the chance for the group to be compromised by infection, or is it better to travel alone and risk being shot in the back by rival survivors?

And anyway, while we're talking high grade top of the line defensive body gear, try getting some Dragon Armor.

[sean]

Who's to say any of the infections are intentional? I mean, why would you WANT competition for food? That is why I'm never having kids.

Thoughts on food: What does the Zombie Survival Guide (I think this should be our definitive source on tactics) say about how long zombies can go on without sustenance, or if they even need it. This is important guys. We need to know how long the zombie threat will last before they start to starve.

And Pat, you damn well better be sure you can keep warm in Alaska, unless Sitka is warmer than I think. I wouldn't rely on indoor heat either. Remember: post-apocalyptic. There's gonna be no fucking electricity.

[Patrick]

Sitka's southeast AK (look near Juneau on a map) so it's way more temperate than, say, Kotzebue or Nome. It is certainly cold and rainy in winter, but between March and October there really isn't much snow. November to February you are in a winter wasteland, but I know people who know how to make snowshoes.

I've also got a good friend, about 23 years old, who is very interested in old-style archery and has made his own wooden bows and arrows. He has been known to bowfish (freshwater only, getting saltwater on your bowstring is a surefire way to have it snap on you, and making a new bowstring is a bitch and a half) and he's even nabbed a few good headshots on deer in his day. He's also got a friend who, incidentally, has a wealth of knowledge in the world of non-refrigerated meat preservation from going on month-long hunting trips. I plan on spending a lot of outdoors time with them when I'm back this summer, and I'll learn as much as I can from the both of them.

One thing I would invest in? A bunch of firestarters. Get one of those flint-and-steel units, and get a fuckton of the magnesium bars that you strip little flakes off of. They're like $20, last for ages even with constant use, and they burn at something like 1000ºC even when wet. Another would be a hatchet (I will go Gary Paulsen on all you motherfuckers).