Topic: Saul Williams and Trent Reznor team up to single-handedly destroy rap music. (Read 23732 times)

Jackie Blue · « **on:** 30 Nov 2007, 11:11 »

Seriously, has anyone heard Niggy Tardust? It's as bad as its title. Easily the worst rap album I've ever heard, and yes, that's including mainstream shit like 50 Cent and Young MC's Return of the One Hit Wonder. Half the songs sound like they're being pushed to be "hold yo' 40s in the air" club anthems, complete with lyrics that are ridiculously macho for someone who is a former slam poet (he wasn't good at that, either, but he was popular) and is supposed to be "intelligent". The other half of the songs sound like Trent said "Man, I wish I could make songs that sound like TV On the Radio".

Also, that cover of "Sunday Bloody Sunday". Oh, Jesus, that track is pain incarnate.

Scandanavian War Machine · « **Reply #1 on:** 30 Nov 2007, 11:14 »

sounds like a personal problem. i've never even heard of this; let alone listened to it.

and judging by your description that's a very good thing.

Jackie Blue · « **Reply #2 on:** 30 Nov 2007, 11:42 »

Well, it's being pushed as some kind of brave new evolution of hip-hop, because OMG TRENT REZNOR PRODUCING A RAP ALBUM, and Saul Williams is "the new voice of black America" and all that. That's why I brought it up. Check the Pitchfork review; they gave it a 7 point something but basically kissed its ass hardcore in the actual review.

Johnny C · « **Reply #3 on:** 30 Nov 2007, 11:58 »

I think you've misjudged the review and possibly, from what I'm listening to on Myspace, the record itself. Pitchfork's stance is that it's a challenging album, the reviewer doesn't always "get it" but he isn't willing to discredit it based on that.

The Myspace only has "DNA" and "Trigger" as original tracks. The latter track reminds me of dense, murky rap like Tes mixed with some low-key Public Enemy sampling, while the former is a fairly slow-burn track about black urbanites finding more value in rap music and what it represents than anything immediate and tangible in their community. Maybe it's just that the best tracks on Niggy Tardust are on the Myspace?

I'm not trying to be a contrarian or anything. I mean, that "Sunday Bloody Sunday" does really suck. I just think that what I'm hearing so far - about a fifth of the record - isn't nearly that bad.

Jackie Blue · « **Reply #4 on:** 30 Nov 2007, 12:23 »

The tracks on the Myspace are definitely not the worst on the album, no. As for it being a "challenging" album, I don't see how. The lyrics are front-loaded with ideas that were already old a decade ago. In one interview, Saul said he wanted to use the word "nigger" so much on the album in order to open a dialogue about what the word means and how it should be used. That's great and all, except that rappers have been doing that since at least the late 80s if not before, and 2Pac already delivered the definitive statement on the subject: "A nigger is a black man with a chain around his neck; a nigga is a black man with a gold chain around his neck."

Johnny C · « **Reply #5 on:** 30 Nov 2007, 12:58 »

That wordfilter ruins all constructive arguments about rap.

I think Tupac talking about it and the culture actually listening are two different things. I mean, when most rappers talk about Pac they're prefacing it with "rest in peace." Essentially, he's used to build cred while his overall views on black culture are left by the wayside. Dialogue about it can't hurt.

Jackie Blue · « **Reply #6 on:** 30 Nov 2007, 13:08 »

Wow, a wordfilter. How quaint.

Can I say "cracker"?

Tom · « **Reply #7 on:** 30 Nov 2007, 13:23 »

Sorry, zoned out at the mention of rap

Joseph · « **Reply #8 on:** 30 Nov 2007, 13:27 »

Quote from: n0t_r0bert_b0yle!! on 30 Nov 2007, 13:23

Sorry, zoned out at the mention of rap

Thanks for adding constructively to this thread. Wonderful.

Anyhow, I liked the idea behind this album, and whenever I imagined what it might sound like, TV On The Radio sprung to mind. Having said that, I didn't have faith enough to actually check it out. This thread has made me happy I had that faith, in part. It also has kind of made me want to listen to it more though, to see if it's really that intensely terrible.

The year has been an odd one for rap. Up until about now, there were only a couple rap albums out this year that I enjoyed. And suddenly, Ghostface, Wu-Tang Clan, Beanie Sigel, and Freeway all have pretty excellent albums out. And I've heard good things about Jay-Z's latest.

Scandanavian War Machine · « **Reply #9 on:** 30 Nov 2007, 13:31 »

doesn't Jay-z sample "The Final Countdown" on his new record? I can't remember if it's him or not but i've heard it and it's amazing.

Meta · « **Reply #10 on:** 30 Nov 2007, 13:39 »

I liked Saul's tracks on Y34RZ3R0R3M1X3D, but I just can't get into Niggy Tardust. I really like NIN/Trent in general, but tardust just doesn't interest me at all.

KharBevNor · « **Reply #11 on:** 30 Nov 2007, 13:43 »

That's because you're RACIST.

Joseph · « **Reply #12 on:** 30 Nov 2007, 13:47 »

So were you, until you discovered you liked that one Dizzee Rascal song.

KharBevNor · « **Reply #13 on:** 30 Nov 2007, 13:49 »

I listen to a reasonable amount of dub.

Valrus · « **Reply #14 on:** 30 Nov 2007, 14:03 »

Team up to singlehandedly destroy...?

Um.

Meta · « **Reply #15 on:** 30 Nov 2007, 14:05 »

Grammar'd.

I'm not a racist, I listen to Bill Withers! (lul)

Jackie Blue · « **Reply #16 on:** 30 Nov 2007, 16:03 »

Quote from: n0t_r0bert_b0yle!! on 30 Nov 2007, 13:23

Sorry, zoned out at the mention of rap

Dismissing whole genres is awesome.

Tom · « **Reply #17 on:** 30 Nov 2007, 16:16 »

It iz a skill that killz.

KvP · « **Reply #18 on:** 30 Nov 2007, 17:06 »

The record's not terribly inconsistent with Williams' past work. If anything, it's more akin to your average hip hop record than his self-titled was. And like with a lot of slam poets, he's a lot better live than he is on record. Slam poetry does, after all, have a heavily aleatory element to it. It's just not the same on record.

That having been said, I don't like it a whole lot either. The new Little Brother, for example, is better. But I still think you're overreacting, particularly in it being worse than 50 Cent. The biggest problem is that the music (mostly unreleased stuff from The Fragile) doesn't jibe with the vocals like it optimally should. I really disliked it at first, but it's growing on me, though I'll never think it's great. It's one of those albums that would work better as an EP.

For Saul at his best, look for a Blackalicious track called "Release".

Jackie Blue · « **Reply #19 on:** 30 Nov 2007, 17:11 »

In the interest of full disclosure I'll admit that I've hated Saul Williams for like 12 years, because I used to be a slam poet and met him several times, and was at Nationals with him (though luck of the draw never saw my team directly compete against his team).

I think he's pretty much just awful in general. It's just that this album took it to such a new level of awful.

KvP · « **Reply #20 on:** 30 Nov 2007, 17:14 »

So he was an asshole, then, is what you're saying?

Starless · « **Reply #21 on:** 30 Nov 2007, 17:47 »

Quote

Saul Williams and Trent Reznor team up to single-handedly destroy rap music.

Awww...I was gonna do that over the weeked

.

Jackie Blue · « **Reply #22 on:** 30 Nov 2007, 18:03 »

Quote from: Kid van Pervert on 30 Nov 2007, 17:14

So he was an asshole, then, is what you're saying?

All slam poets are assholes. Including me, when I was one. That's part of the reason I quit; the audience is so hoodwinked into thinking that these people on stage, who are generally alcoholics, druggies*, misogynists, backstabbing gossips, cold-blooded calculating game-players, or just plain batshit crazy, are really deep, spiritually enlightening and amazing people just because of the piece they're performing. I can't even tell you the number of poets I've known who outright admitted that a piece of theirs wasn't even based on something that actually happened (such as one poet who did a piece about one of his highschool students coming to him for advice about how she was being sexually abused at home, and was a real heartstring-puller and presented as truth, when in fact it was totally and absolutely made-up).

*NB: Not that I think alcohol or drugs are bad, as I'm enjoying both right now, but you know what I mean.

Storm Rider · « **Reply #23 on:** 30 Nov 2007, 18:29 »

Quote from: zerodrone on 30 Nov 2007, 16:03

Quote from: n0t_r0bert_b0yle!! on 30 Nov 2007, 13:23
Sorry, zoned out at the mention of rap

Dismissing whole genres is awesome.

But remember, it's OK if you do it to metal.

Jackie Blue · « **Reply #24 on:** 30 Nov 2007, 18:37 »

I never dismissed literally all metal. I love a select few metal bands. I think the post you're referring to was one where I dismissed certain genre conventions of certain of the most prominent metal subgenres.

Plus, I was mostly just trying to be funny.

Storm Rider · « **Reply #25 on:** 30 Nov 2007, 18:49 »

I have no idea what you're talking about. I find it mildly charming that you think I pay that much attention to what you post, I was merely referring to the fact that it happens around once a month or so on this forum.

Well, that might be a slight exaggeration. But the point is it's somehow unacceptable to pan every other genre of music.

KharBevNor · « **Reply #26 on:** 30 Nov 2007, 18:52 »

Metal and ska.

Tom · « **Reply #27 on:** 30 Nov 2007, 18:58 »

Dismissing metal and ska genres is even more awesome.

Storm Rider · « **Reply #28 on:** 30 Nov 2007, 18:58 »

Quote from: KharBevNor on 30 Nov 2007, 18:52

Metal and ska.

Oh yeah, my bad.

Jackie Blue · « **Reply #29 on:** 30 Nov 2007, 19:10 »

Quote from: Storm Rider on 30 Nov 2007, 18:49

I have no idea what you're talking about. I find it mildly charming that you think I pay that much attention to what you post

I'm sorry, I just have a very good memory for everything in general, so I seem to recall you jumping on my case over the summer when I made fun of certain aspects of metal. So I thought that's what you might be referring to.

KvP · « **Reply #30 on:** 30 Nov 2007, 19:19 »

Quote from: zerodrone on 30 Nov 2007, 18:03

Quote from: Kid van Pervert on 30 Nov 2007, 17:14
So he was an asshole, then, is what you're saying?

All slam poets are assholes. Including me, when I was one. That's part of the reason I quit; the audience is so hoodwinked into thinking that these people on stage, who are generally alcoholics, druggies*, misogynists, backstabbing gossips, cold-blooded calculating game-players, or just plain batshit crazy, are really deep, spiritually enlightening and amazing people just because of the piece they're performing. I can't even tell you the number of poets I've known who outright admitted that a piece of theirs wasn't even based on something that actually happened (such as one poet who did a piece about one of his highschool students coming to him for advice about how she was being sexually abused at home, and was a real heartstring-puller and presented as truth, when in fact it was totally and absolutely made-up).

*NB: Not that I think alcohol or drugs are bad, as I'm enjoying both right now, but you know what I mean.

I understand what you're saying, and I agree, but I've always tried to think of them as actors. Same with most if not all rappers. I just saw Bernard Dolan in concert and he was really good, not because what he said was true, I didn't care if it was true-to-life just as I don't necessarily care if a song is true-to-life, but because his delivery was fiery and passionate. It was impressive to behold. Then I met him afterwards, and yes, he was an asshole. But still, I have to give a measure of respect to someone who can get up onstage and recite something they've written. I don't think I could.

And to be brutally honest, I don't place Saul Williams that high above Zach de la Rocha as far as his "truth-telling" goes. I just happen to think the records he puts out are at least interesting from a musical standpoint.

Clobbersaurus · « **Reply #31 on:** 01 Dec 2007, 14:03 »

sounds like a fantastically horrible car-crash.

i'm going to go rubberneck on slsk.

Spinless · « **Reply #32 on:** 01 Dec 2007, 14:37 »

I don't know a thing about this album except that they're giving it away for free. That wins brownie points from me.

Also, rap is dismissed far more often than metal on this forum, which, in all honesty is largely a forum of metal fans. Which is odd, given that it's associated with a comic that's about indie pop music.

KharBevNor · « **Reply #33 on:** 01 Dec 2007, 14:45 »

Whatever your opinions on metal and rap, at least metal doesn't promote misogyny, violence and racism!

...oh fuck.

Storm Rider · « **Reply #34 on:** 01 Dec 2007, 16:50 »

Quote from: Spinless on 01 Dec 2007, 14:37

Also, rap is dismissed far more often than metal on this forum, which, in all honesty is largely a forum of metal fans.

'Largely' my ass. Remember the battle of the bands we held a year ago or so? You and Tommy were saying the same thing back then, and then like 2 metal bands made it past the first round.

camelpimp · « **Reply #35 on:** 01 Dec 2007, 17:31 »

So what about rap-metal?

Tom · « **Reply #36 on:** 01 Dec 2007, 17:33 »

*shudder*

KharBevNor · « **Reply #37 on:** 01 Dec 2007, 17:41 »

The only thing that's close to being rap metal that's any good is Skindred.

Spinless · « **Reply #38 on:** 01 Dec 2007, 18:44 »

Quote from: Storm Rider on 01 Dec 2007, 16:50

'Largely' my ass. Remember the battle of the bands we held a year ago or so? You and Tommy were saying the same thing back then, and then like 2 metal bands made it past the first round.

That's because we held it on the wiki, and EVERYBODY voted. That means the kids from I Like Fish that don't venture into the music forum. Because they're scared of metal. That's why the metal bands fell out of the competition quickly. There was a lot of strategic voting in that contest, and I know that a lot of people voted in our favour just because we told them to.
Once you start including the other forums, that's when our argument falls apart. I mean, I bet most of the folks from General Discussion barely know what music is. But the music forums? Way metal.

Storm Rider · « **Reply #39 on:** 01 Dec 2007, 18:58 »

OK, so let's examine the music forum itself then. Number of metal-related threads on the first page right now? 1, and it's a complete umbrella thread of the entire genre. OK, so maybe we're just in a down slump. Second page? 1. Third page? 1. If metal fans are the majority here they are pretty fucking quiet.

KharBevNor · « **Reply #40 on:** 01 Dec 2007, 19:05 »

Off the bat, I can think of seven metal fans who post regularly, and at least half of them talk a lot about other genres as well. If you mean in comparison to rap, then just maybe, but then again, maybe not.

Spinless · « **Reply #41 on:** 01 Dec 2007, 19:37 »

And looking at the other threads, the ones that aren't about metal, most of them aren't connected to any particular genre either. Sure, the iPod thread isn't about metal, but it isn't about classical either.

Just out of curiousity...
When was the last time you started a thread on a metal subject?

Johnny C · « **Reply #42 on:** 01 Dec 2007, 23:16 »

JESUS FUCKING CHRIST CAN WE JUST HAVE ONE FUCKING MONTH WHERE WE DON'T ARGUE THE MERITS OF METAL VERSUS RAP FOR FUCK'S SAKE

Tom · « **Reply #43 on:** 01 Dec 2007, 23:18 »

what, they have merits?

Johnny C · « **Reply #44 on:** 01 Dec 2007, 23:32 »

Tom · « **Reply #45 on:** 01 Dec 2007, 23:35 »

A BLOO BLA BLOOOO

Johnny C · « **Reply #46 on:** 02 Dec 2007, 00:17 »

No, no. I have a different picture of myself for blubbering.

That face is saying to you, "Try harder."

Tom · « **Reply #47 on:** 02 Dec 2007, 00:18 »

May i see the blubbering photo?

Storm Rider · « **Reply #48 on:** 02 Dec 2007, 02:25 »

Technically, we weren't talking about merit, we were talking about demographics.

Inlander · « **Reply #49 on:** 02 Dec 2007, 05:49 »

Sorry guys, I completely zoned out at the mention of metal and ska. Now I'm stuck in a disturbingly wonderful fantasy world: Metallica - the two-tone years.

THESE FORUMS NOW CLOSED (read only)

Author Topic: Saul Williams and Trent Reznor team up to single-handedly destroy rap music. (Read 23732 times)

Meta

Meta

Starless

Spinless

camelpimp

Spinless

Spinless