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[Ishotdanieljohnston]

I stumbled upon this collection of his critical writing- http://www.jound.com/will/articles.html

[TheFuriousWombat]

Very cool. I didn't even know this stuff existed. I'm working my way through the records reviews at the moment, soon to move onto film. Thanks!

[MusicScribbles]

I never knew Will Sheff had it in him. These are good reads, thanks lots.

[Inlander]

Let me preface this by saying I love Okkervil River - but, I've read the soft-rock one before and I have to say, I find it very peculiar that Sheff should choose to target so many singers and song-writers for the (perceived) misogyny in their songs, when, to be honest, I find the extreme physical and emotional violence against women that manifests itself in several Okkervil River songs to be rather disturbing.

[Johnny C]

Let me preface this by saying I love Okkervil River - but, I've read the soft-rock one before and I have to say, I find it very peculiar that Sheff should choose to target so many singers and song-writers for the (perceived) misogyny in their songs, when, to be honest, I find the extreme physical and emotional violence against women that manifests itself in several Okkervil River songs to be rather disturbing.

Outside of "Westfall" I don't think we're on the same page on this one. Even then, Sheff writes characters for the most part. I wouldn't argue that Nabokov was a sociopath just because Humbert Humbert is.

EDIT:

I didn't know this was the dude from Okkervil River but from the sounds of things I am glad I have not heard their music!

No, you're not. They're one of the best bands currently operating.

[Inlander]

Outside of "Westfall" I don't think we're on the same page on this one. Even then, Sheff writes characters for the most part.

It manifests itself most obviously on the Overboard and Down E.P. Aside from a live version of "Westfall", the E.P. also includes a cover of "O, Dana" (sample lyric: "I'd rather shoot a woman than a man" - and the fact that Sheff didn't write it is irrelevant here, as he or the band still chose to perform it) and "Love to a Monster":

Lover, now that you've left me, I'm glad you're unlovely
. . .
Yeah I hope that you get angry, and hurt, and have the hardest of landings.
And I hope your new man thinks of me when he sees what a number I did on you.
I grow tired of this song, I turn my eyes to the blonde in the bleachers
She's a lovely young creature
I think she's seeking adventure.
I think she's ready to see that the world isn't so sweet or so tender
I won't break her just bend her, and make her into my new ringer for you.

Perhaps "violence" is too strong a word, but there seems to be a visceral dislike of or anger towards women that comes through again and again in Okkervil River's work.

Now, arguing that he writes in character is perfectly valid, but in that case what allows him to single out anybody else for criticism? How do we know the singers and song-writers whose work he attacks aren't also "in character"?

[Johnny C]

We have two things that we can take from this piece to distinguish Okkervil River's catalogue from those soft-rock hits though. To quote from that article:

The great hypocrisy is that many of these soft-rock artists' self-congratulatory reflections are far from deserved. Jackson Browne, for example, is famous for both co-writing "Take It Easy," and brutally beating his wife, Daryl Hannah, while soft-rock figurehead James Taylor was hardly soft on Carly Simon. Easy-listening patriarch Glen Campbell was a notorious wife-beater, and John Denver, my favorite soft-rock artist, is semi-infamous for being unremittingly cruel, if not physically abusive, to his wife Annie Martell of "Annie's Song" fame.

So, that's genuine physical and emotional violence rather than characterized emotional and physical violence. Second is this.

Not surprisingly, the pantheon of soft-rock hits is full of dubious treatises on gender, often disguised as tender love songs. Take Cat Stevens's "Wild World," for example, in which the hardened male narrator condescends to his wife even as she leaves him, sarcastically telling her "I hope you have a lot of nice things to wear," sneering "it's hard to get by just upon a smile," and finally pronouncing her a "child."

Sometimes, the jaded moral numbness in soft-rock rises to the level of campy hilarity. One such moment is the breezy "Take a Letter, Maria," by R.B. Greaves (nephew, notably, of smooth crooner and reported rapist Sam Cooke), whose swingin' Vegas-y production wraps around a song spoken from the point-of-view of a businessman dictating to his secretary the divorce letter he plans to send his wife. The song ends, of course, with the businessman hitting on the secretary. You'd hardly notice, though, for all the Herb Alpert-y horns and soulful background vocals. And then there's the AM radio station staple "Young Girl," by Gary Puckett and the Union Gap, which is hilarious in its Humbert-Humbertesque fever pitch of pederasty. To the accompaniment of swooning strings, Puckett croons to his "baby in disguise:" "my love for you is way out of line. Better run, girl!…Get out of here before I have the time to change my mind!"

Sheff doesn't hide his violence under sappiness, and his characters and songs aren't morally numb. He writes about fuck-ups fucking up.

There is an awful lot of darkness in Sheff's lyrics, I don't disagree there. And sometimes it's probably intended to cause discomfort. Mostly, I don't want to characterize Okkervil River as this awful band of woman-haters.

[Ishotdanieljohnston]

Outside of "Westfall" I don't think we're on the same page on this one. Even then, Sheff writes characters for the most part.

It manifests itself most obviously on the Overboard and Down E.P. Aside from a live version of "Westfall", the E.P. also includes a cover of "O, Dana" (sample lyric: "I'd rather shoot a woman than a man" - and the fact that Sheff didn't write it is irrelevant here, as he or the band still chose to perform it) and "Love to a Monster":

Lover, now that you've left me, I'm glad you're unlovely
. . .
Yeah I hope that you get angry, and hurt, and have the hardest of landings.
And I hope your new man thinks of me when he sees what a number I did on you.
I grow tired of this song, I turn my eyes to the blonde in the bleachers
She's a lovely young creature
I think she's seeking adventure.
I think she's ready to see that the world isn't so sweet or so tender
I won't break her just bend her, and make her into my new ringer for you.

Perhaps "violence" is too strong a word, but there seems to be a visceral dislike of or anger towards women that comes through again and again in Okkervil River's work.

Now, arguing that he writes in character is perfectly valid, but in that case what allows him to single out anybody else for criticism? How do we know the singers and song-writers whose work he attacks aren't also "in character"?

and here's an example of another sort of those characters:

Let fall your soft and swaying skirt

Let fall your shoes

Let fall your shirt

I'm not the lady killing sort

Enough to hurt the girl in port



And before Holly made her way

Over the sea and far away

She's telling me inside her car

Driving us back from crystal cornevar

WelI lost it then, well I fell from health

I cut fresh new pieces from myself

And for a second something in me

Said leave today it's time Holly

It's time



Well I'm a weak and lonely sort

But I'm not sailing just for sport

I've come to feel out on the sea

These urgent lies pressed against me

I'm just against, I'm not apart

With my tender head

With my easy heart

These several years out on the sea

Have made me empty cold and clear

Pour yourself into me

[Inlander]

Mostly, I don't want to characterize Okkervil River as this awful band of woman-haters.

No indeed, but nor should we look the other way when something disturbs us just because we like the band.

[RandomTax]

Wow, I bet in the President's dead, the President really is a woman. That fucking sexist!

[Inlander]

If you're going to contribute to the discussion, can you please do so in an intelligent manner? Thankyou!

[Liz]

My favorite part of the page is the "praise for Will Sheff here" link at the top.

[Johnny C]

No indeed, but nor should we look the other way when something disturbs us just because we like the band.

I agree, but

sometimes it's probably intended to cause discomfort.

Art provokes an awful lot of reactions, sometimes horrified. I know, blah blah blah Wikipedia but I think it can be argued that the titular character of Black Sheep Boy, among others, probably falls squarely into that article's frame of reference.

This is a Good Discussion, by the way.

[Ishotdanieljohnston]

I think when you have too worry is when such songs have an anthemnic quality, whci could inspire listeners to think "yeah! Lets go rape and kill some bitches!" I can hardly imagine Okkervil River's music having such a potentially dangerous effect on it's listeners. But it is complex, sometimes lyrically demanding music, whci has no sugar coated ideals in the lyrics. They can be violent and they can be challenging- but i would struggle to believe the most etreme of the lyrics support Sheff's own views. I mean, Black Sheep Boy is about Tim Hardin, who died thirty years ago, and fictionalises his fall into heroine addiction, it is not an album about Will Sheff.

[Johnny C]

More important, it's an exploration of the humanity behind that descent - the complexity, the nuance, the blurring of right and wrong and the emotions that come with it all. Joy, heartbreak, anger, desperation; it's all there, all glorious in its celebration of what makes us human.

God damn it now I just want to listen to some God damned Okkervil River.

[Ernest]

I enjoyed reading those

[a pack of wolves]

Now, arguing that he writes in character is perfectly valid, but in that case what allows him to single out anybody else for criticism? How do we know the singers and song-writers whose work he attacks aren't also "in character"?

I'd argue that in a certain sense they most definitely are. One problem I have with a lot of music criticism (and art criticism in general, but it's most prevalent in music) is the whole idea of lyrics that come 'from the heart' and are somehow a revelatory doorway into the soul of the artist. This puts the lyricist into the position of the author-god that has imbued the piece with meaning and I think Barthes did a good job of knocking that down. I always think of lyrics as masks even when they're masquerading as something raw and honest, they are in fact masquerading as such in order to present a particular perspective on something. Sometimes this is the artist but I don't think the first-person lyrics of anyone can ever be regarded as anything but 'in character'.

This thread's great, incidentally. Not only did I really like this guy's music criticism (a very rare thing for me) it's made me want to hear Okkervil River quite a lot.

[Inlander]

Well, Mr. Sheff has me all confused. In the article we've been discussing he seems incredibly dismissive of Sam Cooke (almost going out of his way to dismiss him as a "smooth crooner and reported rapist"), but in this article he comes across as a big fan. Puzzling!

[a pack of wolves]

I'm not sure he dismisses him as such exactly, rather that it suits his argument at that particular time to describe him in that way. He also says that he enjoys John Denver (or at least that he's his favourite soft rock artist) but he attacks him just as much as anyone else in the article. I think it's misleading because in the article he's using Cooke whereas in the interview he's giving his personal feelings towards his work.

[Borondir]

I've spent time trying to figure out whether Shef's lyrics are unintentionally mysogynistic, despite the fact I am sure Sheff himself is not, at least consciously.  I did Westfall at an open mic and one of my feminist friends was a little surprised to hear me singing something she thought was obviously misogynistic.  To me, its just part of the country murder ballad tradition, but that has its own problems too.  I don't think Sheff is a misogynist, but is it still dangerous to sing something like Westfall? 

On a different note, his Blackest of the Black article is shocked and conspiratorial at the same time in the way pretty much all, "let me introduce you to the far out world of black metal" articles and documentaries are.  Its a sort of strange glee in letting out this wonderful secret on an unsuspecting audience.  'These guys really mean what they say! They are actually scary! Woooooooaah!' But I guess I am just jaded.

[Scandanavian War Machine]

so how do you guys feel about Johnny Cash then?
he has many a song about killing women.

the way i see it is this: when it comes down to it, there are alot worse things than misogyny. nuclear weapons, for instance.
basically, what i am saying is...does it really matter?

[Borondir]

Johnny Cash was who I was thinking about when I mentioned the tradition of murder ballads in country.  I'm a huge Cash fan, having grown up on him, and I'm almost certain he himself was not misogynist, but you really have to wonder how those songs affected people to ignorant to realize that. 

And really, I don't know where you are getting off talking about worse things than misogyny, unless you want to start ranking the worlds evils by degree.  Misogyny is a blight on human society that has resulted in an incredible amount of suffering, violence, and death for women whose only crime was being a woman.  I'm positive misogyny has caused more suffering and taken more lives than nuclear weapons.   

[Scandanavian War Machine]

hang on.

domestic violence and misogynistic song lyrics are pretty much not the same thing. also, why can't we rank the worlds evils? there are greater and lesser evils, are there not? i mean, how does someone singing about male superiority rank against genocide? they're not even in the same ballpark. they're both wrong but one is clearly more wrong than the other.

at this point, i'm basically just play devil's advocate because i agree with both sides of the arguement and don't really care enough to take a side anymore. berate me, if you must.

[a pack of wolves]

What you've missed is that genocide and domestic violence are only possible in a culture filled with hate, violence and concepts of superiority based on arbitrary traits, often ones which only exist when constructed by a society (gender, race etc). It's hard to start ranking these things when they cannot exist in isolation.

[Johnny C]

I'd argue that in a certain sense they most definitely are.... I always think of lyrics as masks even when they're masquerading as something raw and honest, they are in fact masquerading as such in order to present a particular perspective on something. Sometimes this is the artist but I don't think the first-person lyrics of anyone can ever be regarded as anything but 'in character'.

I almost completely disagree, unless you're arguing that they're in the character of themselves. I know plenty of songs where the artist was writing directly and plainly about nothing but their own life. Think of lyrics as less of masks and more of mirrors, really. Sometimes the artist holds the mirror up to reflect his or her self, sometimes the world around them, and sometimes the world with them in the frame. The artist is always in control and always pointing it in a direction he or she wants to show, but sometimes isn't directly in the image. Instead, the artist merely directs our attention to the subject.

Sheff definitely writes as characters, and for the most part the soft rock artists are at most ambiguous. There are a few who write from character perspectives but for the majority of them we're given no reason to believe that it's anyone other than them speaking.

[a pack of wolves]

I disagree that the artist can be seen as in control. Again going back to Barthes the inherent intertextuality of any piece of art and the remote position of the artist means that meaning is created by the listener when they encounter the piece, not discovered by them. Since the artist can't control the context in which the art is experienced their control over meaning is not absolute although I'd say they have more influence than the very reductive position Barthes put them in.

The reason masks always spring to mind for me is because a mask is often used to present a particular aspect of your personality to the world, a particular vision of you, much like first person song lyrics can. There is no way they could encompass a person's entire character, so yes I am arguing they are in the character of themselves in the sense of being an image of themselves. They are able to very deliberately select what words they use and therefore what image they attempt to show, although as I've said how we read their mask is not something they can control. Mirrors actually work quite well for this as a metaphor. They distort images, they're two-dimensional, they can be positioned so they give whatever image the holder desires and someone looking at the same mirror will invariably see a different image the holder cannot control since they can't be in the same place and the angle alters what's seen.

[Borondir]

What you've missed is that genocide and domestic violence are only possible in a culture filled with hate, violence and concepts of superiority based on arbitrary traits, often ones which only exist when constructed by a society (gender, race etc). It's hard to start ranking these things when they cannot exist in isolation.

Exactly.  I didn't want to say the word patriarchy, since it just brings up all sorts of unjustified prejudice against feminism, but pack of wolves is absolutely right that violence and oppression exist as part and parcel of hierarchical societies. 

On the other subject, I think even the most honest lyrics can never be a complete laying bare of the artists soul...both the conscious act of creating and arranging the words and the different contexts in which listeners receive them mean that art takes on a life of its own, outside the power of either.

[Johnny C]

They are able to very deliberately select what words they use and therefore what image they attempt to show

See, from that perspective I'm currently in character typing this post, which isn't true at all. The difference between this post and the way I'd say it in real life is that if you were talking directly to me I'd be pausing to select those words.

It's a tough argument, and I see where you're coming from but the statement that an artist is always writing in character is a dangerous one; in broad strokes, it seems to assert that artists are either always firm in their beliefs on an unsavory subject or they never really mean it. If it's the first one then we're making claims about people that may be outright lies, and if it's the second one we'd be letting odious people get away with nasty shit without having the right to call them on it.

The fact is, whether or not an artist is writing in order to reflect a particular worldview isn't as important as whether or not the artist is writing as somebody else. Isolating one facet of your personality and coming up with lyrics from that perspective is an entirely different act than isolating someone else's personality and writing from that.

EDIT: Personal example. I'm writing a song right now called "Be A Man." I'm writing it from the perspective of a man who doesn't really respect women or anyone else and instead seeks his own happiness first and foremost, and he's actually adressing me. I'm intending it as a critique of the general attitude I see in my province, city and university. It starts with these lines:

You some kinda faggot, son
I don't understand where you're coming from

I don't call people "faggot," ever. I find the term incredibly distasteful at best and outright harmful at worst, and I doubt that on this forum I'd have to go into reasons why. But the worldview I'm writing from in this song isn't my worldview.

I've also written a song very recently with the lines,

These songs were meant for a singular "you,"
Somebody different, somebody new
The first time we touched, talked...

Which is, especially for me, incredibly direct. I'm writing this song from my worldview. It's me, completely unmasked, and I doubt it's hard to figure out the meaning behind those lines, no matter what context they're in.

[KvP]

I guess this is as good of a place to announce this as any.

Okkervil River has released a free mixtape of live covers on their website, looks like in conjunction with Pitchfork. So, if you like Okkervil River, or you like covers, download away.

Nice articles, by the way.

[a pack of wolves]

It's a tough argument, and I see where you're coming from but the statement that an artist is always writing in character is a dangerous one; in broad strokes, it seems to assert that artists are either always firm in their beliefs on an unsavory subject or they never really mean it. If it's the first one then we're making claims about people that may be outright lies, and if it's the second one we'd be letting odious people get away with nasty shit without having the right to call them on it.

The fact is, whether or not an artist is writing in order to reflect a particular worldview isn't as important as whether or not the artist is writing as somebody else. Isolating one facet of your personality and coming up with lyrics from that perspective is an entirely different act than isolating someone else's personality and writing from that.

I agree that attempting to write from someone else's perspective and attempting to write from your own are different things, but I see them as being different points on the same line if you see what I mean. That is, that the own perspective that you present is always going to be a construct and becomes separate from the creator as soon as it's made. Pressing post here is much the same as singing a song to someone in that the 'I' is gone and what's left is the character you create when you read it. I don't think this effects how much an artist means something though. I've written songs in character where I've been making statements I vehemently disagree with much like the lyrics you posted (very good lyrics, by the way, I'd like to hear the whole thing) but I've also used non-first person characters who represented things I've thought or aspects of myself. I didn't mean those things any less because I was using a character.

[BrittanyMarie]

No, you're not. They're one of the best bands currently operating.

Tommy, please listen to Johnny. He's right, and I have really nothing else to add other than I really enjoyed reading your guys' discussion on this.

[Johnny C]

I see them as being different points on the same line if you see what I mean

Actually I do, and this isn't a bad assertion to make at all. The different points should be heavily considered though, especially when making judgements on an artist's character.

[Ishotdanieljohnston]

I guess this is as good of a place to announce this as any.

Okkervil River has released a free mixtape of live covers on their website, looks like in conjunction with Pitchfork. So, if you like Okkervil River, or you like covers, download away.

Nice articles, by the way.

I was actually pretty dissappointed with this. They always seem to like the song they're covering to do anything really interesting with it. Also, they're all live, and Sheff has alot of trouble pitching his voice live, they just don't sound very good.

I hope this kinda thing is better when you actually see it live- guess I'll find out in a couple of months.

[jimbunny]

YOU don't know about me without you have read a book by the name of The Adventures of Tom Sawyer; but that ain't no matter. That book was made by Mr. Mark Twain, and he told the truth, mainly...

I guess what I'm saying is, we should ban this Will Sheff person from our schools.

[monkandmovies13]

I have a hard time believing that Westfall is misogynistic, because it's based on a true story of murders that happened in Will's hometown, or someplace he lived at some point. It also doesn't really imply that the killers were misogynists just because they killed women. There could have been any number of reasons that they chose those girls, besides the fact that they were girls.

Anyway, I was shown those articles about a month and a half ago and couldn't stop reading them. Love the one about the beards. Will Sheff is definitely one of the most talented musicians out there today.

[pilsner]

Perhaps "violence" is too strong a word, but there seems to be a visceral dislike of or anger towards women that comes through again and again in Okkervil River's work.

One of the interesting points of Westfall is that the focus is not so much on a vicarious thrill of killing a young woman, as it is on the finale line "They’re looking for evil, thinking they can trace it, but evil don’t look like anything."  The killing is Will Sheff's conception of an ultimate evil, and the song can be seen as a vehicle to get you to that punchline.  Evil lurks under normality and often isn't revealed until it manifests, Sheff seems to be saying.  It had to be a woman (or a child, in this case more or less both) who was killed because in poetical terms (and I emphasize that I'm talking traditional symbolism here)  a woman might represent an innocent in need of protection, whereas a man might represent a competitor and an adversary.  All of which is to say, seeing this as a basis to disqualify Sheff from calling someone else on misogyny (whether real or imagined) seems to me to be missing the point.

As for "Oh, Dana", calling "I'd rather shoot a girl than a man" a sample lyric gives a pretty skewed version of the song to someone who hasn't heard it.  I've always interpreted the lyrics to mean that the narrator, to the extent there is one, would sooner have his lady love hurt than himself.  Given that the song ends with "She's got a magic wand/that says play with yourself before other ones", I'm just not seeing the lady hating.

And ditto for "Love to a Monster".  Sheff's singing about heartbreak from a guy's point of view -- the songs wouldn't be authentic if the narrators didn't express some sort of anger (however misplaced) for the ladies that broke their hearts.  I wouldn't expect anything less from a female songwriter's (or narrator's) point of view for the lady's ex-fella and I definitely wouldn't expect someone to jump the gun and call it misandry.  Anyhow, I've got to run but interesting conversation.

[Ishotdanieljohnston]

I agree with everything you just said.

[KharBevNor]

If this guy is a Misogynist, Nick Cave must be Josef Mengeles.