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the beatles

37 (44.6%)

led zeppelin

12 (14.5%)

Rush

7 (8.4%)

tool

8 (9.6%)

pink floyd

19 (22.9%)

Total Members Voted: 56

[dalconnsuch]

I hope you people are all saying this because you're still young and stupid because seriously, SERIOUSLY.

I don't give a fuck how someone dresses or what they listen to.  I have friends with atrocious taste in music.  One of my best friends listens almost exclusively to mainstream latin american rock, 95% of which I think is tedious shite.  But it doesn't matter to me!

I have friends that dress like they just came from a Rennasissance Fair or a Matrix Lookalike Convention.  Once again, who gives a fuck!

I wear prescription sunglasses at night.  Oh noes!  I'm pretentious!  Please don't speak to me!

Man I really hope that 10 years ago I didn't think this way.  "Oh, that band's fans look stupid.  Probably I should not listen to them."

GOD.

my point exactly, you should never not listen to a band just cuz of their fan scene, yeah the grateful dead's fan scene is full of hippies
and junkies doesn't mean i ain't going to listen to them just i don't like em

[KharBevNor]

Itt: People do not understand what subcultures are.







YUO CANT LABEL MEEEEEEEE

[Beastmouth]

Anyways, when did mainstream become hip hop and rap? The radio station I listened to when I was a kid is now entirely hip hop.

After Kurt's Lead Breakfast

[SleeperCylon]

Like I've said, there's nothing wrong with being mainstream.  It just so happens that a whole lot of mainstream bands are really lame.

More now than in the 60s and 70s, because back then mainstream bands tended to play their own instruments and write their own music, with a few exceptions (Monkees, etc).  Mainstream tends to be lamer now because the performer is basically a dancing, singing robot who does whatever the record company says.  And instruments have been replaced mostly by weak dance loops.

[Jackie Blue]

Mainstream tends to be lamer now because the performer is basically a dancing, singing robot who does whatever the record company says.  And instruments have been replaced mostly by weak dance loops.

I think perhaps you are curiously unaware that bands such as Radiohead, REM, Bright Eyes, Arcade Fire, Interpol, TV On the Radio, etc. are mainstream.

It is a tiresome cliché to define "mainstream music" as simply "stuff I don't like that is on some radio stations".

[ViolentDove]

Er... seems to be a bit of confusion in this thread regarding the difference between a subculture and fan of a particular type of music. They can be different things!

Khar was referring to subcultures. Subcultures have multiple traits that define them, not just one. A fan of a particular type of music has one trait. 

It's not about caring what your friends listen to or what clothes they wear, it's about the mindnumbing quantity of people who don't know that you can't label a person like a genre.

You really can. Labelling people/subcultures is the same as labelling anything. If subculture A is defined by the characteristics X, Y and Z, and person A has characterstics X, Y and Z, then you can refer to them as A.

As much as people like to think that they're a beautiful, unique individual that defies categorisation, if you walk around with a mohawk, a jacket with "The Exploited" smeared on the back in your own faeces, and put out a shitty zine on DIY tattoos, then people are going to call you a punk.

Labelling things is not some evil corporate plot designed by a hegemony of oil barons and vampire record company execs, it's a function of human language that simplifies communication.

[Jackie Blue]

As much as people like to think that they're a beautiful, unique individual that defies categorisation, if you walk around with a mohawk, a jacket with "The Exploited" smeared on the back in your own faeces, and put out a shitty zine on DIY tattoos, then people are going to call you a punk.

Yes, of course.

It is my experience, however, that most intelligent people over the age of 21 tend to get over such obsession with fashion.

[GenericName]

Wait.

People plan on living past 21?

[Ballard]

The chap who said we should appreciate Rush for their contribution to music. It's a ridiculous stance.

Just to play devil's advocate here- Black Flag?

She Wants Revenge are more enjoyable than New Order.

Man. If you want to edit this out of your post, I will absolutely forget it ever happened.

For the sake of both of us.

Not if I sig it first.

Incidentally, if this song is representative of Maynard James Keenan from Tool's latest direction, I am pretty much okay with it.

I feel like I just got the hipster equivalent of rickrolled.

[KharBevNor]

It is my experience, however, that most intelligent people over the age of 21 tend to get over such obsession with fashion.

I'm sorry, but you're an arse.

[Jackie Blue]

Well, that is certainly a sterling example of pot-kettle theory in action!

[KharBevNor]

This is you.

[Jackie Blue]

OK, who pissed in Khar's oatmeal this morning?

[Nodaisho]

Looks to me like that kid thought ahead, he has enough room to make steps out.

[Spluff]

In a way, progressive alt/metal is the cheesy pop of this generation.

What. Prog metal isn't particuarly accessible, hugely technical, rhythmically varied and stable. How is it in any way like cheesy pop apart from being cheesy if you're listening to Dream Theater or Symphony X?

I was being sarcastic - but it seems that particular saying is only found in my particular locale.

[Johnny C]

I actually can't tell what Khar was trying so with that picture because I can't think past "GET IN THE GROUND."

Eugene, while the members of Black Flag produced worthwhile things, the best thing that ever came out of Black Flag musically was that eventually Dirty Projectors turned Damaged into Rise Above.

[MadassAlex]

Well, that is certainly a sterling example of pot-kettle theory in action!

Not exactly. Fashion can be a shitty trend or it can be a method of pre-communication. An office uniform, for example. It's not exactly a chosen fashion but it's a visual presentation that is widely accepted. The black tee and jacket of a metalhead is the same thing, outside of formal grounds. Even choosing what t-shirt to wear and which pants go best with it is just visual presentation and nothing different from the others apart from style without a group, but even then most people in casual clothes ever wear a tee and jeans.

And for the record, you're contradicting yourself. Earlier you stated that you wanted people to get over judging others based on their dress and now you're accusing subcultures of being fashion obsessed and, by implication, shallow.

[Nodaisho]

I actually can't tell what Khar was trying so with that picture because I can't think past "GET IN THE GROUND."

Eugene, while the members of Black Flag produced worthwhile things, the best thing that ever came out of Black Flag musically was that eventually Dirty Projectors turned Damaged into Rise Above.

Digging yourself into a hole, I think.

[Jimmy the Squid]

It is my experience, however, that most intelligent people over the age of 21 tend to get over such obsession with fashion.

Dude, where do you live? People never get over an obsession with fashion. It's pretty much how you alert people to anything from your taste in music, political leanings, religious views, even sexuality without having to speak to them. Every time you put on clothes you are making a choice about your day and making the choice to advertise your opinions on a myriad of subjects for anyone who cares to notice.

Not exactly. Fashion can be a shitty trend or it can be a method of pre-communication. An office uniform, for example. It's not exactly a chosen fashion but it's a visual presentation that is widely accepted. The black tee and jacket of a metalhead is the same thing, outside of formal grounds. Even choosing what t-shirt to wear and which pants go best with it is just visual presentation and nothing different from the others apart from style without a group, but even then most people in casual clothes ever wear a tee and jeans.

Let's take me as an example. Usually I will be wearing a pair of black jeans with the legs tucked into a big fuck-off pair of boots with buckles and shit all over the place, a leather jacket (or trench coat in winter) and usually a black metal T-shirt. It is fairly obvious that I am saying that not only do I have a penchant for being visually dramatic but my views on religion are clearly negative. However, once I get out of uni and go for an actual job in my chosen career, I am probably going to be wearing suits and looking fairly respectable. This will not be because I will not be obsessed about fashion but because that is the required uniform someone who works in a particular profession would generally wear. I am still going to be wearing black and will probably do what I can to work with as much eccentricity as I can get away with.

Blithely dismissing fashion as something simple and ultimately immature is pretty silly because it is an inescapable part of human society. We are pretty visually dull creatures so how we choose to adorn ourselves is always going to play a role in our lives.

[MadassAlex]

Tommy, Rush are absolutely brilliant. This is not debatable.

[MadassAlex]

Tommy, Rush are absolutely brilliant. This is not debatable.

I don't personally agree

Tommy, Rush are absolutely brilliant. This is not debatable.

These are fighting words Mister Ski and I suggest you revise them lest I play you a phrase of music that transcends all time signatures.

[a pack of wolves]

Eugene, while the members of Black Flag produced worthwhile things, the best thing that ever came out of Black Flag musically was that eventually Dirty Projectors turned Damaged into Rise Above.

I reject your revisionist history that tries to pretend that My War isn't one of the greatest records of all time.

[dalconnsuch]

Eugene, while the members of Black Flag produced worthwhile things, the best thing that ever came out of Black Flag musically was that eventually Dirty Projectors turned Damaged into Rise Above.

I reject your revisionist history that tries to pretend that My War isn't one of the greatest records of all time.

i never could understand peoples love for black flagg, theres much better punk from the 80's

plus black flagg had like fifty million fuckin trillion lineup changes except for that one guitarist

[Jackie Blue]

And for the record, you're contradicting yourself. Earlier you stated that you wanted people to get over judging others based on their dress and now you're accusing subcultures of being fashion obsessed and, by implication, shallow.

No, actually, all I did was state a fact - that in my experience, meaning out of the hundreds of people I've known in my life, only those that are younger than 21 or so or are to some extent shallow go very far out of their way to make an elaborate statement by their appearance (eg mohawk, tons of patches on the jacket, ripped jeans, piercings, etc).

This is not to say I don't know exceptions to the rule.  I have close friends who spend lots of money on looking a certain way.

This is not to say I don't choose the clothes I wear to look good, just that I don't go out of my way or spend lots of time/money to conform to one particular "look" because in my experience being part of the "same subculture" as someone else has fuck-all to do with whether I'll get along with them.  YMMV.

Right now I'm wearing a Dinosaur Jr. shirt and army surplus camo pants.  I do own a black trenchcoat.  I wear prescription sunglasses at night when I go out.  I am not "above" fashion, but I do not make any effort to meticulously wear an easily identifiable uniform so that people can look at me and say "Oh look, a goth/metalhead/indie rocker/whatever".

My main problem is with "crusty kids" - you know, the homeless "travelers" who dress very punk rock.  As someone I met on the street said when I was in San Francisco a few months ago, "They ask you for spare change while they've got $200 worth of metal in their faces."

Also I have had bad experiences with fashion-goths, because man, they really do tend to be extremely shallow, in every city I've ever been in over the past 14 years.

[McTaggart]

I think this is the first time I've heard people talk about Rush and not all be taking the piss.

[Jackie Blue]

I've never really encountered any kind of directed hatred of Rush until now.  Pretty much everyone I know concedes they have a few songs that are not bad.

I can't believe the Beatles have almost twice as many votes as Pink Floyd.  WTF, guys.  WTF.

[McTaggart]

Pink Floyd never got mashed up with Jay-Z.

[Johnny C]

They might have but it probably wasn't as good.

[pinkpiche]

Er... seems to be a bit of confusion in this thread regarding the difference between a subculture and fan of a particular type of music. They can be different things!

Khar was referring to subcultures. Subcultures have multiple traits that define them, not just one. A fan of a particular type of music has one trait. 

It's not about caring what your friends listen to or what clothes they wear, it's about the mindnumbing quantity of people who don't know that you can't label a person like a genre.

You really can. Labelling people/subcultures is the same as labelling anything. If subculture A is defined by the characteristics X, Y and Z, and person A has characterstics X, Y and Z, then you can refer to them as A.

As much as people like to think that they're a beautiful, unique individual that defies categorisation, if you walk around with a mohawk, a jacket with "The Exploited" smeared on the back in your own faeces, and put out a shitty zine on DIY tattoos, then people are going to call you a punk.

Labelling things is not some evil corporate plot designed by a hegemony of oil barons and vampire record company execs, it's a function of human language that simplifies communication.

But... It's not very polite.

Nah you're right.

[KharBevNor]

No, actually, all I did was state a fact - that in my experience, meaning out of the hundreds of people I've known in my life, only those that are younger than 21 or so or are to some extent shallow go very far out of their way to make an elaborate statement by their appearance (eg mohawk, tons of patches on the jacket, ripped jeans, piercings, etc).

I'll resist the urge to just post multiple pictures of members of pung, goth and metal bands, and just say, whoah, you don't know ANY bikers?

[Ballard]

Blithely dismissing fashion as something simple and ultimately immature is pretty silly because it is an inescapable part of human society. We are pretty visually dull creatures so how we choose to adorn ourselves is always going to play a role in our lives.

I think the question being asked here is, how many 45 year old punks do you see walking around? How about 50 year old hipsters in skinny jeans? 60 year old women sporting Chelseas and lip piercings?

(The answer is, a few. For example, there's a hardcore punk who comes into the guitar shop I work at often. I'd place him at 40-ish. He's coked out of his mind and there's no doubt that he lives on the street)

We, as a society, will never get over fashion. However, the fashions associated with music in the last 50-odd years have simultaneously been associated with young people. As priorities, responsibilities, and habits change, most people who are not somehow connected to the music industry begin to listen to music less and less, instead spending their free time with their families, or pursuing other hobbies. Thus, the styles that go along with being immersed in certain genres fade away and are replaced by more mature ones.

[a pack of wolves]

i never could understand peoples love for black flagg, theres much better punk from the 80's

plus black flagg had like fifty million fuckin trillion lineup changes except for that one guitarist

Not that many changes. They went through a few singers before Rollins but all of their studio albums had him on vocals. Since Greg Ginn wrote all the songs the main thing needed was the Rollins/Ginn combination, although I do really like Kira's bass playing. Better punk from the 80s? The Minutemen, possibly Minor Threat and Rites of Spring and that's about it, and 80s hardcore is undoubtedly my favourite music of all time. And regardless of my own opinions their recordings and the way they went about touring and releases were key to the development of a lot of heavy music I like. I remember one of Iron Monkey being asked what music he liked in an interview once. His response: "Black Flag and nothing else."

[Jackie Blue]

I'll resist the urge to just post multiple pictures of members of pung, goth and metal bands, and just say, whoah, you don't know ANY bikers?

Members of bands "dressing up" is a bit different from members of the audience, because to some bands, part of the performance is the costume.  I readily admit that I do put a little effort into my appearance when I play a show, though it rarely goes beyond "tucking my jeans into my boots" or "wearing eyeliner".

I actually know a lot of bikers, as one of the bars I've most frequented in the past 10 years is a favorite spot for 40+ year old bikers.  However, they're not really the kind of bikers who dress like Hell's Angels, they're more down to Earth than that, just generally nice guys who smoke pot and like to discuss music and politics.  Half of them or so are Vietnam vets or ex-hippies.

[KharBevNor]

Sorry, I forgot that you're always right.

[a pack of wolves]

That many? Damn, I thoroughly underestimated that one.

I love all those bands, except for Bad Brains who were terrible (and besides, you do not mess with Biscuit from the Big Boys, the man was a legend) and Scream who weren't to my taste. But the only one I like more than Black Flag are the Minutemen, and I like them more than most everything. I know it's all subjective, it's just that whenever Black Flag get brought up round these parts people either say they detest their music but admire the way they went about touring or that they think some of their music is ok but nothing more. For me, My War is absolutely crushing and Damaged has some of the best guitars I've ever heard on a punk record ever. They're damn near flawless, and the little things that I think are off with both those records actually end up adding to the whole working. So I just thought I'd stick up for the Flag.

And Pung really did rock, 'Chechnya's Gone' was a great song.

[Hat]

Duh

[Hat]

How about some Winger?



Upon superficial inspection I would not blame you for assuming they were the exact same band.

GLAM-BREAK

[bbqrocks]

the most commercial band i like is brenoritvrezorkre i know i am such a commercial tool


Seriously though, I like rush, led zep, the beatles, and rainbow.

[SevenPinkerton]

I'll resist the urge to just post multiple pictures of members of pung, goth and metal bands, and just say, whoah, you don't know ANY bikers?

Members of bands "dressing up" is a bit different from members of the audience, because to some bands, part of the performance is the costume.  I readily admit that I do put a little effort into my appearance when I play a show, though it rarely goes beyond "tucking my jeans into my boots" or "wearing eyeliner".

I actually know a lot of bikers, as one of the bars I've most frequented in the past 10 years is a favorite spot for 40+ year old bikers.  However, they're not really the kind of bikers who dress like Hell's Angels, they're more down to Earth than that, just generally nice guys who smoke pot and like to discuss music and politics.  Half of them or so are Vietnam vets or ex-hippies.

What I'm wondering is what is considered not "dressing up?" As multiple members of the board has already mentioned, we all make a choice when we get dressed in the morning, as a direct result of a choice as to where we placed our money and the businesses or bands we have chosen to support. What really would be the difference between seeing someone that spent 100+ on an expensive suit with someone who has spent 100+ on hot topic gear and piercings?  As much as we each have our own perceptions as to what is normal and accepted I don't see why either should be respected at all. If we're going for practicality, a nice toga or burlap sack should do just fine.

So, what would be normal, or the opposite of an all out punk kid or complete goth? A polo shirt or an overpriced pre-faded t-shirt? I prefer the lavish costumes, they are far more entertaining and make great conversation starters.

[Jackie Blue]

What really would be the difference between seeing someone that spent 100+ on an expensive suit with someone who has spent 100+ on hot topic gear and piercings?

Not much at all.  My point is "people who spend a lot of money and time on a look" and "people who don't".

Like I said, I put a minimal effort into what I wear and how I look, but I do not spend literally hundreds of dollars and an hour or two a day to make sure I fit impressively into a subculture's costume.  In my experience, that is a phase that people outgrow as they realise that grouping together with others is more complex than listening to the same bands or reading the same books.  YMMV.

[Alex C]

Yeah, in my first job right out of high school I ended up working very closely with a cute girl of the same age since our low level positions required pretty much constant collaboration. We came from similar backgrounds, had a lot of the same interests and our senses of style were about as similar as you can get without crossdressing. New coworkers tended to treat us like some kind of matched set and a few even grumbled about the company dating policies, which was really sort of funny since we absolutely could not stand eachother at all.

Moral of the story: Two people can have a lot of superficial things in common and still fantasize about killing eachother with boxcutters. God, I'm never working in another mailroom again.

[ViolentDove]

People who have an interest in fashion or clothes and spend money on it are no different from people who have an interest in music and spend money on vinyl imports of the slightly different Japanese edition of some band's seminal first album, or any other hobby or interest, for that matter.

For the record, there are lots of old people in certain sub-cultures. Such as goths, hippies of various types, and there seems to be a fair few older people in the rockabilly scene, too.
Don't see to many older punks, though.

[Jackie Blue]

Are you kidding?  There are tons of old punks.  They just stop bothering to dress up.

Old hippies never stop dressing like hippies because hippie clothing is cheap.

Old goths keep dressing that way because they're afraid of looking old and not getting laid any more.

Trust me, I know a hell of a lot of old hippies and goths.

[MadassAlex]

Right now I'm wearing a Dinosaur Jr. shirt and army surplus camo pants.  I do own a black trenchcoat.  I wear prescription sunglasses at night when I go out.  I am not "above" fashion, but I do not make any effort to meticulously wear an easily identifiable uniform so that people can look at me and say "Oh look, a goth/metalhead/indie rocker/whatever".

I think people over 21 being less prone to altering their visual appearance so much has more to do with holding down a solid job than anything to do with "maturity".

BTW, most "looks" are easy and not very time consuming to achieve - the exceptions are generally the ones that appeal to the younger teenage demographic and are sold via the most popular bands of the time. Pop-punk emo, for example, or gangster. Anyone can grow their hair long/er and wear band t-shirts. Point being, most people who looks metalhead/rocker/indie rocker/most subcultures aren't "meticulous" about it at all.

[Jackie Blue]

No, I know many older goth/hippie people who hold down steady "straight" jobs while still dressing up in public, on the weekends, or even at work.

[MadassAlex]

Well, that's great for them, then. 

It looks like it's your experience versus mine, which would make this an argument of subjectivity.

For the record, I don't think hippies count because it's not that much of a look to "maintain", really.

[Jackie Blue]

Plus, looking like a "hippie" is pretty mainstream nowadays anyhow and in any decent sized city won't get you looked twice at.

[dalconnsuch]

Plus, looking like a "hippie" is pretty mainstream nowadays anyhow and in any decent sized city won't get you looked twice at.

u need to go to my college "the evergreen state college" if you any respect for hippies at all going to evergreen will change that trust me

[SevenPinkerton]

depending on what kind of hippy we're referring too, in my experience it's expensive to dress as a hippy or what people assume are hippies. I get called a hippy all the time because I care about where I buy my clothing and what it's made of and that generally shows on clothing. It can be expensive to buy non-sweatshop made non-pesticide covered clothing.

I'm not sure what would constitute a "hippy" to most people, though. In my experience, they (and I) tend to be mislabeled and stereotyped due to any old factor in our personality or dressing style. And along come the ridiculous generalizations that follow. "Hippy" is one of those words that is practically dead now as it really means nothing but a misunderstood insult directed at people with a broad set of values and lifestyle choices.

[Scandanavian War Machine]

i saw a bumper sticker the other day that said "drive less, bike more"

fucking hippies don't think, i swear.