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Author Topic: Happy Darwin Day!  (Read 20315 times)

sleepingfingers

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Happy Darwin Day!
« on: 12 Feb 2008, 18:11 »

A mere two days before the pinnacle of reproductive excellence and we should not neglect the birth of the birth of evolution.  Good luck today in...well, evolving.
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KickThatBathProf

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Re: Happy Darwin Day!
« Reply #1 on: 12 Feb 2008, 18:51 »

Yes, well, if Daniel Quinn had anything to say about it, we'll need a bit more than luck.
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sleepingfingers

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Re: Happy Darwin Day!
« Reply #2 on: 12 Feb 2008, 19:02 »

Yes, well, if Daniel Quinn had anything to say about it, we'll need a bit more than luck.

Daniel Quinn falls victim to Godwin's law in only his second book. 
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Re: Happy Darwin Day!
« Reply #3 on: 12 Feb 2008, 19:12 »

When is that?

Oh, and you fail at knowing the details of the law. It specifies an online debate, and the corollary states that there is an exception for when the comparison is justified (for instance, calling nazis nazis, or hitler a nazi).
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sleepingfingers

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Re: Happy Darwin Day!
« Reply #4 on: 12 Feb 2008, 19:17 »

When is that?

Oh, and you fail at knowing the details of the law. It specifies an online debate, and the corollary states that there is an exception for when the comparison is justified (for instance, calling nazis nazis, or hitler a nazi).

Yes I took a liberty in the online/paper regard.  In Ishmael he uses Nazi Germany as an extreme to justify a mainstream point.  It is akin to saying that any government that utilizes the death penalty will devolve into a fascist government that practices genocide against its own population.  In that regard he meets the requirements of the law.
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KickThatBathProf

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Re: Happy Darwin Day!
« Reply #5 on: 12 Feb 2008, 19:19 »

Is it that much of a stretch, though, to warrant Godwin's Law?
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sleepingfingers

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Re: Happy Darwin Day!
« Reply #6 on: 12 Feb 2008, 19:26 »

Is it that much of a stretch, though, to warrant Godwin's Law?

No.  I was just in a bad mood.  I don't make a habit of citing or defending Godwin and this is apparently what happens after I kill a Mountain Don't or two.  I don't always agree with Quinn but think he is a great writer.  Man, I wish I could delete this whole post.
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KickThatBathProf

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Re: Happy Darwin Day!
« Reply #7 on: 12 Feb 2008, 19:35 »

Sorry, I guess...

I do agree though that some of things Quinn says are quite implausible.  The whole "not giving food to starving nations thing" really isn't my cup of tea
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tania

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Re: Happy Darwin Day!
« Reply #8 on: 12 Feb 2008, 19:45 »

happy darwin day, charles darwin. you wrote 'the origin of species' almost 150 years ago and did years and years of research and pretty much proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that evolution exists yet american public schools still insist it is just a theory.
it's unfortunate you're no longer alive, but i guess you probably wouldn't want to be anyway. maybe it's for the better.
« Last Edit: 12 Feb 2008, 19:50 by ephemere »
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Storm Rider

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Re: Happy Darwin Day!
« Reply #9 on: 13 Feb 2008, 00:18 »

Some American public schools. That sort of thing is decided on a state-by-state basis. There wasn't any fucking intelligent design shit in my biology class.
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KickThatBathProf

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Re: Happy Darwin Day!
« Reply #10 on: 13 Feb 2008, 00:35 »

Fuckin' Kansas
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KharBevNor

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Re: Happy Darwin Day!
« Reply #11 on: 13 Feb 2008, 02:35 »

Yay science.
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Re: Happy Darwin Day!
« Reply #12 on: 13 Feb 2008, 06:00 »

Unfortunately, Tom, due to the advent of domestication the likelihood of the cat evolving is getting slimmer. Opposable thumbs, you see, would confer little selective advantage for a house cat that doesn't need to provide food or shelter for itself. I would wager that most cats now die of old age, as a result of the pampering. I would wager that the future evolution of cats would be along the attracting a mate line...pretty patterns or smellier scents.

I am neither a phylogenist or a catologist though.
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Re: Happy Darwin Day!
« Reply #13 on: 13 Feb 2008, 06:19 »

I am going to celebrate by being a slightly more awesome version of my forebears.
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Doug S. Machina

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Re: Happy Darwin Day!
« Reply #14 on: 13 Feb 2008, 06:21 »

I am going to celebrate by being a slightly more awesome version of my forebears.

I like that.

I'm  no scientist either, but have heard that civilisation means humans aren't evolving at any more. Unsuccesful traits that would have been weeded out by unforgiving Nature before reproducing can now be supported. Even if, say, your immune system is busted, medical science can help you live a life. I would think the same would apply to our pets, unless we think it would be good to breed them for thumbs.

happy darwin day, charles darwin. you wrote 'the origin of species' almost 150 years ago and did years and years of research and pretty much proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that evolution exists yet american public schools still insist it is just a theory.
it's unfortunate you're no longer alive, but i guess you probably wouldn't want to be anyway. maybe it's for the better.

It's pretty disingenuous, that. A theory in science is different from saying "Well, that's my theory." That's a hypothesis.
« Last Edit: 14 Feb 2008, 17:30 by Doug S. Machina »
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Re: Happy Darwin Day!
« Reply #15 on: 13 Feb 2008, 06:57 »

I am going to celebrate by continuing to be the absolute pinnacle of human evolution.
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tania

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Re: Happy Darwin Day!
« Reply #16 on: 13 Feb 2008, 07:13 »

yeah, my comment about evolution being taught as a theory in the united states was kind of overgeneralizing. i apologize for that. the last few days i feel like i've read hundreds of articles about "bringing the bible back into school!" and though that applies only to some states it's still had me sort of riled up and preoccupied.

i disagree about how humans aren't evolving anymore though. there's been a lot of progress made in being able to test for whether or not individuals carry genes that determine certain genetic diseases (cystic fibrosis and huntington's disease are two major ones) and this has a huge impact on whether or not those individuals choose to biologically have children. women also have the option of aborting their pregnancies if their children are shown to have severe metal impairments.

one argument against this is that this sort of genetic testing could potentially be a bad thing because we are killing future generations before they are even born but i don't really understand. any reason to not have kids is pretty valid, and not the same thing as murder at all. by that logic you are killing millions for every second you spend not fucking and trying to get someone pregnant.
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Cam

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Re: Happy Darwin Day!
« Reply #17 on: 13 Feb 2008, 07:21 »

I'm  no scientist either, but have heard that civilisation means humans aren't evolving at any more. Unsuccesful traits that would have been weeded out by unforgiving Nature before reproducing can now be supported.

It is true that the normal things that would be weeded out are able to survive thanks to technological crutches.  Hell, I am damn sure glad that glasses and contacts are available. 

There is an upside to greater genetic diversity.  It makes our species less vulnerable to a mass disease that could wipe us out.  For instance, the bubonic plague loves iron.  Back in the medieval times, people with lots of iron in their blood were thriving.  Then boom, the plague ruined their shit. 

Over specialization does have risks as well.
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calenlass

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Re: Happy Darwin Day!
« Reply #18 on: 13 Feb 2008, 07:57 »

I know the odds are against both species surviving to see this evolutionary breakthrough but it would be pretty amazing to see how the human-domesticated cat relationship would change if they developed opposable thumbs, as has been suggested by some felinologists.

Some Polydactyl cats seem to hint at such a future -

[pic]paw![/pic]


Polydactylism in humans is a dominant characteristic. Anyone who wasn't born with more than ten fingers is very very recessive.
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Re: Happy Darwin Day!
« Reply #19 on: 13 Feb 2008, 08:09 »

Humanity has not stopped evolving. Humanity simply now has some degree of control over its evolution.

Evolution /= constant 'improvement'. That's a false paradigm. There is no such thing as 'devolution' either. All that is implied is change.
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Nodaisho

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Re: Happy Darwin Day!
« Reply #20 on: 13 Feb 2008, 08:14 »

I would wager that the future evolution of cats would be along the attracting a mate line...pretty patterns or smellier scents.
What about being smart enough not to get your balls chopped off by a vet?
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Re: Happy Darwin Day!
« Reply #21 on: 13 Feb 2008, 08:16 »

i've read arguments about how humans will probably evolve in the far future to have more than 10 fingers because of the fact that polydactylism is a dominant gene but in all honestly i find this extremely unlikely simply because of how incredibly completely rare it is. there's lots of comparisons - blonde hair and blue or green eyes are recessive traits while brown eyes and brown hair are dominant, yet people with blonde hair and blue or green eyes are still everywhere because it's just an extremely common gene regardless. but maybe time will tell on this, so who knows?

i don't remember if it's dawkins' 'the selfish gene' that discusses this but i recall reading this really interesting piece of writing about how most animal and bird species that are completely dependent on their parents when young inevitably evolve different mechanisms that allow the parent and child to sort of communicate with each other. like, how when a baby bird chirps the parent has to somehow understand that this means the baby bird is hungry and vice versa. in humans, what very likely has happened is that people have somehow evolved to think little kids are cute. they aren't really, it's completely subjective. people just think they're cute. as a result people who think babies are cute are more likely to want to have kids and pay attention to kids and then they'll have kids who like kids and the whole thing is just a big circle. this makes me extremely happy because it is such an elegant and perfect solution for me to the people who claim women who don't have children are selfish. i don't want or like kids, therefore i'm the exact type of person who shouldn't have kids. hooray!
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Ozymandias

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Re: Happy Darwin Day!
« Reply #22 on: 13 Feb 2008, 08:29 »

Cam and Khar are dead on. Genetic diversity is one of humanity's greatest form of evolution. Given any conditions, there's probably a group of humans out there that can survive it. There are people who are immune to AIDS. There are people immune to different forms of cancer. There's a dude in Vietnam who hasn't slept in three decades and is perfectly healthy.
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calenlass

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Re: Happy Darwin Day!
« Reply #23 on: 13 Feb 2008, 08:42 »

Eph: actually, I think polydactylism will be "bred out", so to speak, because people get grossed or weirded out by it to the point that I could see it being a deal-breaker for relationships.


Then again, it might not, because everyone I know who is polydactyl had the extra digits removed at birth and I would not have know had they not told me.
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KharBevNor

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Re: Happy Darwin Day!
« Reply #24 on: 13 Feb 2008, 08:45 »

People get grossed out easy if that's the case. One of my exes only had one joint on one thumb. I didn't even notice for a couple of weeks.
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Re: Happy Darwin Day!
« Reply #25 on: 13 Feb 2008, 08:49 »

Which joint? The ball joint at the hand or the was she unable to bend her thumb? Playing around with my hand, I really can't decide which would be more of a pain in the ass.
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tommydski

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Re: Happy Darwin Day!
« Reply #26 on: 13 Feb 2008, 10:42 »

I'd imagine any type of thumb would be a real pain in the ass if you stuck it right up there.
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calenlass

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Re: Happy Darwin Day!
« Reply #27 on: 13 Feb 2008, 11:28 »

Don't be silly, Tommy. Obviously you aren't using enough lube.
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KharBevNor

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Re: Happy Darwin Day!
« Reply #28 on: 13 Feb 2008, 11:36 »

Which joint? The ball joint at the hand or the was she unable to bend her thumb? Playing around with my hand, I really can't decide which would be more of a pain in the ass.

Essentially her thumb ended at the knuckle. This was a birth defect, not the result of an accident, so she still had a fingernail.
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Doug S. Machina

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Re: Happy Darwin Day!
« Reply #29 on: 13 Feb 2008, 13:23 »

Quote from: Tania
by that logic you are killing millions for every second you spend not fucking

Who said you could use my chat-up line?

"By not having sex with me right now, you're killing our children, and their children, and all our descendants for centuries to come! Won't somebody think of the children?"

yeah, my comment about evolution being taught as a theory in the united states was kind of overgeneralizing. i apologize for that.
I apologise if it seemed I was attacking you. I've heard of those want to "bring the bible back into school" saying "evolution is only a theory" and that was what I disagreed with. Evolution is a Theory in the same way the Theory of Gravity is a theory. It's been hypothosised, tested on what we know, and even seen in action (take antibiotic-resistant bacteria and the peppered moth.)

Eph: actually, I think polydactylism will be "bred out", so to speak, because people get grossed or weirded out by it to the point that I could see it being a deal-breaker for relationships.

Then again, it might not, because everyone I know who is polydactyl had the extra digits removed at birth and I would not have know had they not told me.

That's kind of what I was getting at. The genes would continue. The effects are fixed later.

I agree that diversity is necessary. For instance, sickle cell anemia (looked it up) can cause organ damage and strokes and shortens your life expectantcy but carries immunity to malaria.

Cam and Khar are dead on. Genetic diversity is one of humanity's greatest form of evolution. Given any conditions, there's probably a group of humans out there that can survive it. There are people who are immune to AIDS. There are people immune to different forms of cancer. There's a dude in Vietnam who hasn't slept in three decades and is perfectly healthy.

Wow, I read some of Lawrence Block's Evan Tanner novels, but always thought it couldn't really happen. I remember there was a radio DJ in America who didn't sleep for two weeks for charity and suffered personality-altering mental damage from it. Do you have a link for that story?
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sean

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Re: Happy Darwin Day!
« Reply #30 on: 13 Feb 2008, 13:52 »

Humanity has not stopped evolving. Humanity simply now has some degree of control over its evolution.

I doubt this what Khar was pointing at, but Transhumanism people.

This counts as evolution. Evolution is only gonna speed up and become fucking awesome.
« Last Edit: 13 Feb 2008, 13:54 by Objects inside Clouds »
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Re: Happy Darwin Day!
« Reply #31 on: 13 Feb 2008, 13:58 »

people have somehow evolved to think little kids are cute. they aren't really, it's completely subjective.

Every Tania post is another glimpse into her childhood.
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KharBevNor

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Re: Happy Darwin Day!
« Reply #32 on: 13 Feb 2008, 14:00 »

That's certainly a point for the future. But at present, the most important factor is the amount of control humans have over their environment. "Survival of the fittest" is another one of those misunderstood little phrases. It doesn't refer to being buff or brainy or anything, but rather your suitedness to survive in a given environment. Being highly myopic doesn't make me unfit for survival at all, because I live in an environment which includes opticians, spectacles, contact lenses and laser surgery.
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Ozymandias

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Re: Happy Darwin Day!
« Reply #33 on: 13 Feb 2008, 14:09 »

Transhumanism is the most horrific thing I could ever imagine.

The people who will adopt first and dominate it? They will be /b/.

(I want to write a novel about this.)
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Re: Happy Darwin Day!
« Reply #34 on: 13 Feb 2008, 14:20 »

The politics of transhumanism are worrying. I can't escape the conclusion that transhumanism could easily lead to the re-introduction of aristocracy, in its proper meaning of 'rule by the best'. Simply, when transhumanist technologies first start being introduced, they are likely to be very, very expensive. Thus they will probably be adopted mainly by rich people, and their offspring. Being transhuman, naturally, makes you pretty much more suited to skilled, high paying jobs. Transhumans would dominate fields like medicine, business, politics, professional sport, etc. It would also concievably lead to a surge in the growth of military forces, as the military is about the only blue collar occupation where transhuman technology would be necessary and economically viable. Soldiers would literally have to be transhuman. Maybe law enforcement officials as well, which is perhaps even more scary. The only way I can definitely imagine this not happening is if serious breakthroughs are made in nanotechnology, as self-replicating nanotechnology would essentially be free. Of course, self-replicating nanotech is scary as fuck for a whole host of other reasons, but hey...
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Re: Happy Darwin Day!
« Reply #35 on: 13 Feb 2008, 14:23 »

The Venn diagram of my reservations about both transhumanism and genetic engineering/screening basically looks like a circle. Also they are basically everything Khar described.
« Last Edit: 13 Feb 2008, 14:26 by Johnny C »
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Re: Happy Darwin Day!
« Reply #36 on: 13 Feb 2008, 14:26 »

There's a dude in Vietnam who hasn't slept in three decades and is perfectly healthy.

 :-o
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Re: Happy Darwin Day!
« Reply #37 on: 13 Feb 2008, 14:29 »

We are reading Darwin in class at this moment.  Anyone interested in the history of science who doesn't mind Victorian prose should do likewise.  I think I like him for the same reason I liked Adam Smith and David Hume--he seems so genial and fair-minded.  He even made me expand my category of 'genial scottish thinkers' to 'genial Brittish thinkers.'

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Re: Happy Darwin Day!
« Reply #38 on: 13 Feb 2008, 14:34 »

The people who will adopt first and dominate it? They will be /b/.

I am honestly more scared of this than I am of a rise of a new aristocracy.

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Re: Happy Darwin Day!
« Reply #39 on: 13 Feb 2008, 17:48 »

My cat really likes 52-Card Pick Up. Does that count?
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Re: Happy Darwin Day!
« Reply #40 on: 13 Feb 2008, 18:13 »

you could always just breed cats via artificial selection instead of waiting for them to evolve on their own. in fact, i'm pretty sure that's how most domesticated animals came to exist in the first place.

obviously the reason no one has attempted the cat poker thing yet is because cats with opposable thumbs are kind of freaky.
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Re: Happy Darwin Day!
« Reply #41 on: 13 Feb 2008, 18:20 »

Dogs can play poker, and yet they don't have opposable thumbs. Food for thought.
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Re: Happy Darwin Day!
« Reply #42 on: 13 Feb 2008, 18:29 »

Foolish hew-mon! Picture is not reality!
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Re: Happy Darwin Day!
« Reply #43 on: 13 Feb 2008, 18:35 »

obviously the reason no one has attempted the cat poker thing yet is because cats with opposable thumbs are kind of freaky.

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ViolentDove

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Re: Happy Darwin Day!
« Reply #44 on: 13 Feb 2008, 21:08 »


"I have called this principle, by which each slight variation, if useful, is preserved, by the term Natural Selection."

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With cake ownership set to C and cake consumption set to K, then C + K = 0.  So indeed as one consumes a cake, one simultaneously deprives oneself of cake ownership. 

Nodaisho

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Re: Happy Darwin Day!
« Reply #45 on: 13 Feb 2008, 22:07 »

The people who will adopt first and dominate it? They will be /b/.

I am honestly more scared of this than I am of a rise of a new aristocracy.


Just kill them before they can get the avoiding death thing down. Use more than enough gun, I recommend something in the 66mm range, if they have gotten the robotic enhancement things. Might want to look into handheld EMPs, as well as that shotgun taser in the other thread.
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I took a duck in the face at two hundred and fifty knots

Johnny C

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Re: Happy Darwin Day!
« Reply #46 on: 13 Feb 2008, 22:12 »

I think he's suggesting less of a Frankenstein scenario and more of a Gattaca, where it gradually becomes the societal norm.
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KharBevNor

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Re: Happy Darwin Day!
« Reply #47 on: 13 Feb 2008, 22:14 »

Possible upsides to transhumanism:

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http://panzerdivisio

Nodaisho

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Re: Happy Darwin Day!
« Reply #48 on: 13 Feb 2008, 22:20 »

A cyberpunk world? That isn't exactly the kind of place you want to be stuck in, just where you want to visit.
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I took a duck in the face at two hundred and fifty knots

Johnny C

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Re: Happy Darwin Day!
« Reply #49 on: 13 Feb 2008, 22:21 »

Possible downsides:

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