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Author Topic: Get off my lawn!  (Read 84819 times)

jhocking

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Get off my lawn!
« on: 09 Mar 2008, 10:46 »

What do you think are important signifiers of age level? Like, what are the things that make you different from your parents?

ForteBass

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #1 on: 09 Mar 2008, 10:48 »

Well not being almost 70 helps.
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quietnow

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #2 on: 09 Mar 2008, 10:50 »

my parents have real jobs.
they own a home and shit.
i'm poor.
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Barmymoo

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #3 on: 09 Mar 2008, 11:02 »

To give a serious answer, guyz...

Yesterday I had a massive row with my mum's partner (who is 44 years older than me) about the fact that he was watching football (soccer) at the dinner table.

I hate football (the watching thereof, not the partaking in) and my mum isn't keen on TV while we eat. What we mostly were clashing over, though, is the fact that I feel that everyone should be equal in a household. We share out the house work, and although I can't cook I always wash and dry up and do the other food-related tasks. As far as I'm concerned, this should also apply to things like watching TV. If two people would rather not, then we shouldn't.

But he disagrees. He said that it is his house, and that he was brought up in a family where the father chose what to watch. Is this an age thing? I'm not sure if it is a generation difference but I think maybe my generation (I'm 17) is on a more equal level to adults than previous generations. I call my teachers by their first names, for example.
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #4 on: 09 Mar 2008, 11:12 »

You're just a punk.
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Patrick

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #5 on: 09 Mar 2008, 11:15 »

Man I am constantly being looked down on just because I'm 19. Nobody takes me seriously. Which is possibly the most infuriating thing I know of.

Seriously dude, look at Rihanna and look at Kate Nash. Where are they? So-rich-I-don't-have-to-do-fucking-anything-for-the-rest-of-my-lifesville. I bet people take them seriously.
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A Wet Helmet

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #6 on: 09 Mar 2008, 11:27 »

.. As far as I'm concerned, this should also apply to things like watching TV. If two people would rather not, then we shouldn't.


Oh, hell no.

Lookee here:  My kids get a tremendous amount of respect from me.  They really do.  I earnestly listen to what they have to say and what their wants and desires are and I take them into consideration.  I don't want to argue with my kids.  I don't want to piss them off.  I want them to be happy, and if I can make them happy, so much the better. They are not now --and until they are fully self-sufficient they will not be-- my equal though.  There isn't a vote.  They are children.     

It is my job to raise them.  It is my job to ensure that they are prepared to enter the world ready to pursue happiness by whatever means they determine best meets their own personal goals.  If I have succeeded as a parent, then they will do that without a) taking a premature dirt nap b) getting a sexually transmitted disease or c) going to jail.

In the meantime, I determine what is best for them --taking into consideration their wants-- and they do what I tell them, or face the consequences.   So though I personally don't think watching sports on tv during dinner is appropriate, I do see the fallacy of thinking there is equal voice.   "We outnumber you and we all want to eat ice cream for supper so that's what we're going to have."

Wrong. 
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #7 on: 09 Mar 2008, 11:33 »

You are noting that his mom agreed, correct?

I'm sorry, but his dad was being a tit if that story's to be believed. If both his partner and her son, who is easily old enough to input a valid opinion I add, feel he is committing a faux pas, he should respect the wishes of the majority. The "my house" thing in particular is just horribly dismissive and incredibly overbearing a response.
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Patrick

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #8 on: 09 Mar 2008, 11:41 »

Wrong. 

Just because it works for you doesn't mean the other person is absolutely wrong.

Besides, I tend to disagree. At some point you've got to let the kid start making their own decisions, and it is your responsibility as a decent human being to advise them of the best way, but to still let them do what they want to (within reason, cocaine is always a terrible idea) and learn from their own mistakes.

And I'm with Jon. That is one of the rudest things anybody can say. My mother does it to me all the time ("it's MY computer"), and when she does, I have this almost overwhelming urge to grab the largest magnet I can find and have a little party with her hard drive.
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #9 on: 09 Mar 2008, 11:53 »

My parents knew better than to pull that when I was a teenager. They acknowledged early on that it would be rather unfair to claim "mine" "mine" when half the electronics in the house would fall apart without my maintenance.
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E. Spaceman

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #10 on: 09 Mar 2008, 12:31 »

Quote
He said that it is his house, and that he was brought up in a family where the father chose what to watch.


This is the bit that makes me angry, for reasons related to. That he lived in an antiquated and sexist household is not a valid reason, hell, it even makes it more of a reason to not be a dick. As for the "it's mine because i pay for it mentality", that only really works if your children are sheep.
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StaedlerMars

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #11 on: 09 Mar 2008, 12:35 »

To answer the original question: My parents and I pretty much treat each other as equals, as far as the they support my living things lets it.

My dad is pretty tech savvy, so Obsessions' point doesn't really apply. I don't see many differences between how they were 30 years ago and how I am now. I think they see this too.

How do I get along with other people their age? It gets easier and easier. Two-three years ago it was mostly awkwardness, but now.. meh.

But when I'm staying at their's (when I'm not at uni) I respect that I'm staying at their house, and while I might disagree with some of the things they do, they're a) my parents and b) it's their home with their rules. Barmymoo it's really a problem your mom and her partner need to sort out between each other. You can tell them how you feel, but in the end it's their decision. Realize you're living at their expense, even if you help out around the house.

The 'it's my house' thing is rude to point out, but he shouldn't have to. It is his house. When I go stay at a christian household and they say grace I don't tell them that I disagree with their believes and refuse to look down and fold my hands (this was the first thing I could come up with). It's common courtesy.
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A Wet Helmet

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #12 on: 09 Mar 2008, 13:12 »

You are noting that his mom agreed, correct?

I'm sorry, but his dad was being a tit if that story's to be believed. If both his partner and her son, who is easily old enough to input a valid opinion I add, feel he is committing a faux pas, he should respect the wishes of the majority. The "my house" thing in particular is just horribly dismissive and incredibly overbearing a response.

So are you being deliberately obtuse or did you really miss the pains I took in my post to point out that I did not condone the behavior of the 'adult'?  I specifically address the belief of a minor child that he is an equal in the house and has some sort of veto authority.   Any child who is raised in such a household is being done a tremendous disservice and is being ill prepared for the really real world in which most of us eventually find ourselves.
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Storm Rider

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #13 on: 09 Mar 2008, 13:18 »

I have a house and what could be called a career. I'm fucking ancient and rapidly deteriorating so I feel like I desperately need to lie to the Internet.
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IronOxide

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #14 on: 09 Mar 2008, 13:30 »

You are noting that his mom agreed, correct?

I'm sorry, but his dad was being a tit if that story's to be believed. If both his partner and her son, who is easily old enough to input a valid opinion I add, feel he is committing a faux pas, he should respect the wishes of the majority. The "my house" thing in particular is just horribly dismissive and incredibly overbearing a response.

So are you being deliberately obtuse or did you really miss the pains I took in my post to point out that I did not condone the behavior of the 'adult'?  I specifically address the belief of a minor child that he is an equal in the house and has some sort of veto authority.   Any child who is raised in such a household is being done a tremendous disservice and is being ill prepared for the really real world in which most of us eventually find ourselves.

I think his point was that his wife disagreed, which makes it at least 1 to 1, and if the child counts even the slightest amount of a person, his vote would tilt it in the favor of the wife, unless the wife is less of a vote than the husband. The problem is that he's denying the wishes of both his partner and his child because it is "his house". Which is an inequality in all of the relationships, especially in the husband-wife department.
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A Wet Helmet

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #15 on: 09 Mar 2008, 14:02 »

And again: I never said that the guy wasn't being a jerk.  What I did say is that a household is not a democracy in which a minor child gets a vote.

I'm not sure that I can be anymore succinct than that.
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Hat

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #16 on: 09 Mar 2008, 14:10 »

I think mostly the main difference between my parents and I is that they only know how to use the internet for gambling, and they only abuse legally sanctioned drugs anymore.

Also they are about 35 years older than me, which I feel helps a LOT.
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Barmymoo

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #17 on: 09 Mar 2008, 14:34 »

Wow, that was more of a response than I expected.

Wet Helmet I do take your point, and in a lot of cases I agree with you. Ice cream for dinner, to take your example, is definately something that parents shouldn't condone (and incidentally something I rallied for a lot when I was younger).

But in this case, it wasn't about him telling me not to do something dangerous like substance abuse or shoplifting, it was disregarding my request for the football not to be on. I'm not allowed to read at the table. It felt like double standards. I also take your point that you weren't agreeing with him watching it but just illustrating that there isn't an equal voice. I think this was mostly the point I was making: I'd imagine that as a parent yourself, you are probably closer in age to him than to me, and therefore backing up what I was saying. On the other hand, I could be an anomaly in my own age group and I might find that most people my age would agree that because he is older, he has the right to choose what we watch or don't watch when we eat.

Also, guys, I'm a girl  :wink: It always surprises me when people see Barmymoo as a male name, it always seems female to me (possibly because it's my name?)

Hat, your parents clearly haven't heard of Lolcats or they would not need to abuse any form of drugs.
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #18 on: 09 Mar 2008, 14:44 »

I am 100 % certain that if my parents knew about LOLcats it would only cause them to sink deeper into their substance abuse problems.
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Lines

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #19 on: 09 Mar 2008, 14:57 »

About the OP, I would say things like maturity and common sense, but people develop these things at different ages. Like I feel I "grew up" well before many other people my age, especially ones I went to school with. But my mom and I get along pretty well. I have a feeling we'd get along better if we didn't live in the same house, because we're both pretty stubborn people, but as I don't have the time to get a job to afford what I need to live on my own while I finish up school, I will stay here for the time being. Hell, I've even done the thing most kids dream of - I got my mom to like over half the music I listen to, and this doesn't include the stuff she played while I was growing up. But I guess the most major difference between me and my mom is that she has more life experience as she's almost 60. About 22 and about 60 is a major difference. Another difference is she doesn't like watching animated movies that much anymore outside of the Pixar stuff. She put up with me watching Disney movies on repeat for days at a time, so I think I can understand why...

He said that it is his house, and that he was brought up in a family where the father chose what to watch.

If all three of you live in this house, I don't see how it is only his. He could at least wait until after dinner if your mom asked him to turn it off during dinner. Unless he's one of "those guys," but I don't know him so I won't make that assumption.

What I did say is that a household is not a democracy in which a minor child gets a vote.

No offense, but maybe in your household this is true, but it certainly wasn't in mine. For a well rounded only child of a single parent, there were things my mom gave me a vote on. Now when it came to eating ice cream for dinner, that was a definite no, obviously, but TV during dinner (for example)? Yes, I would get a vote if it wasn't something important like the news or whatever.
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #20 on: 09 Mar 2008, 15:03 »

What do you think are important signifiers of age level?

This is something I've thought about a lot while growing up so that I could act older than I actually was at any given time. Admittedly my focus has been on age rather than generation, which seems to be the real question you're implying.

I find that some generational signifiers are cultural. For example, when talking about music with my aunt on my mother's side, she's made the remark that music is more important for me right now than for her because she's grown up. I'm sure my mother shares the same sentiments.

On the other hand, my dad is still always looking for new music, and he's nearly a generation older than they are.

I honestly don't know why that is because I know being Chinese doesn't stop you from being focused about the music one listens to. Perhaps the Cultural Revolution stifled such tendencies.

It's hard to generalize about age level signifiers because obviously individuals mature at different rates and thus need to be judged by different standards. Ultimately I think it comes down to subtle differences in behavior and humor. It demonstrates the amount of control you have over your actions and your awareness of others. Obviously there are exceptions to these stereotypes but younger people are more excitable, passionate, more noticeably happier, and are comfortable within a smaller range of ages. (In other words, the older you are, the more age groups you feel comfortable around as peers.)
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Barmymoo

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #21 on: 09 Mar 2008, 15:04 »

Hat, that is also a possibility that I considered before posting. However I prefer to be optimistic about the healing powers of cats sporting bizarre clothing and odd captions.  :wink:

And in reference to Linds' post, which appeared while I was writing this, the reason that it is specifically his house rather than ours is because he has lived here for over twenty years and I moved in six months ago. I do consider it to be his house, but it's also temporarily my home until I go to university. Sometimes it doesn't seem he always agrees. But to be fair to him, he is never violent and rarely raises his voice, although is immovably stubborn at times and my mum is still at the stage where she seems to back him up on issues that she's divided over, purely because they only got together about a year ago. Maybe that's just my perspective on it.

I have a friend who's an only child living with a single parent, she says exactly the same thing about getting on better with her mum if they didn't live together, but they're still close. I think it's often easier to be close to a single parent rather than trying to function in a family setting. I'd certainly find it easier, I think.
« Last Edit: 09 Mar 2008, 15:06 by Barmymoo »
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #22 on: 09 Mar 2008, 15:14 »

Now, I think some of the conflict that Barmymoo has could come from them just not knowing each other well. It took my father about fifteen years to realize I was just as stubborn as him, and that butting heads over trivial things wasn't going to do any good. I wouldn't say it is so much a matter of having a vote as being polite, if someone doesn't want the TV on during dinner, that doesn't seem at all like an outrageous request to make.

Course, I am 16, I have a bias, as does everyone else participating in this.
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #23 on: 09 Mar 2008, 15:21 »

Yeah, I get your point then, Barmymoo. But still, it's a tv. :|
« Last Edit: 09 Mar 2008, 15:23 by Linds »
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #24 on: 09 Mar 2008, 16:12 »

my parents immigrated to canada in the 60s and i can't really tell whether or not my constant disdain for them is a result of family dynamics being different in russia or the possibility that maybe they are just ridiculous people regardless. to name a couple of examples, they deal with their severe debt issues basically by looking away and pretending they don't exist, they are petty and superficial and compete in just about everything with my extended family (to my dad, it is absolutely crucial that I end up more successful than his sister's kids), and they fight on a daily basis but always end up resorting to name-calling instead of civil discussions... which of course solves nothing in the long term.

in a lot of ways i feel i am more mature than my parents, which is kind of depressing considering they are almost 40 years older than me. there's a pretty big generation gap between us as well as evidenced in their constant racism/sexism/homophobia/etc. like tommy, i don't spend a lot of time with my parents because we fundamentally disagree on just about everything and being in the same place as them is really kind of a stressful experience.
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #25 on: 09 Mar 2008, 16:15 »

Edit: Ok this was mostly a response to Wet Helmet's original couple of posts, but the internet shat out and I had to go do stuff and it's been a few hours. I haven't read the interim replies or changed what I was going to say.


I find more and more that my upbringing was rather singular. The "it's MY [whatever]" thing actually did work in my house, but only because my sisters and I used it as well (only on each other, though, because my parents were careful not to misuse or abuse things that were specifically ours). This might have something to do with how my parents taught us to think about money, and how it is a means to an end (if you want something, you will probably have to pay money for it) and how the saving of it is security for future freedom from want or need.

I went to a pretentious rich kid school from age 7 until 17 when I graduated, and throughout high school all of my friends got cars for their birthdays. Granted, not all of them drove to school every day, but that was because they just didn't want to pay for gas or couldn't be arsed. I didn't get my own car until I got a job the summer after my senior year, and that was only because I bought it and was making monthly payments to my dad, who was the actual title owner. I am expected to pay for maintenance and repairs too. Basically, except for the title, which my dad still owns as a favour to me to save money on the insurance, it is MY car. When it got totalled, the insurance money went to ME, and I picked out the new car myself. No one has any say over what I do with my car except me. It was this way with both of my sisters, as well, although neither of them have had to replace theirs yet.

It was the same way with books or movies or whatever: you asked permission to borrow it, and the other person had every right to refuse for whatever reason they wanted. With the TV, it was a case of priority or seniority; i.e., whoever was watching something first had control of the remote at least until the particular program was over, or if someone watched, say, The Muppet Show (yeah that was me) every week, it was understood that for that half hour or hour I would watch the show and it was at the least exceedingly dickish for someone to try and change that.

I cannot remember or even think of any potential situations wherein my parents would not treat any of their children as individuals with opinions and rights to those opinions and choices. The issue of "it's MY house" has never even arisen, and in fact I do not think that phrase has ever left either of their mouths. They have always given me advice and related their own experiences when relevant to try and give me some perspective and then let me make my own choices. This is, of course, relative; for instance, if I were going to try and buy drugs or something with the money in my savings account, before I turned 18 my mother would've just locked me out of the account, or taken the keys to my car away for driving 130 miles down to Statesboro on a school night or something. But since I never saw drugs as a good potential return for the investment of my money, I never had to bother with that, and I suffered "grounding" (nothing outside school or extracurriculars for a few weeks) for the Statesboro trip.

I suppose it has to do with the fact that my parents have complete faith in the fact that they have done their absolute best to raise thoughtful, reasonable kids, and they realise that beyond that they cannot ultimately control the actions of another being. I have always appreciated the fact that they made this clear to us as their children, as well, because it reinforced that if they made mistakes, they were only humans and mortals doing the best they knew how, not some sort of irreproachable gods who handed down mandates and privileges from on high to their offspring. I think ultimately it has caused me to have a great deal of respect, rather than fear, for both my parents, and it has only grown as I come to realise how much good they have done me.



Also:
If I have succeeded as a parent, then they will do that without b) getting a sexually transmitted disease

Sometimes accidents happen, or your kid might get lied to. A friend of mine (well, I haven't talked to her in like a year, but I guess she still counts) was with her significant other for two years and he never told her he had the herpes, but now she does too and she had no idea until she got a breakout and thought she was dying or had the plague or something. She was going to sue him, but he got a job overseas and can't be reached anymore. So I guess what I am saying is that sometimes you can teach your kids to be responsible and shit can still blow up in their face.


Double Edit: Linds basically said what I did.

EditEditEdit: Guys what the fuck? I have never in my life asked for ice cream for dinner. I do not even do that now that I am feeding myself. I do not like being ridiculously sick and I never have. What the hell, dudes?
« Last Edit: 09 Mar 2008, 16:19 by calenlass »
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #26 on: 09 Mar 2008, 16:28 »

With regards to the OP, I am pretty good friends with my mom, especially now that I have moved out. Unfortunately, I cannot be as free with my lifestyle as I would like, because my parents are my money source right now, and I cannot afford to have them withdraw that support (which they would do if I did something horrendous, like move in with a BOY or have a BABY or something) SINCE I CANNOT GET A GODDAMN MOTHERFUCKING JOB HGABUALGUHAUGHABULH. But mostly we don't fight very much anymore and I value her advice and her experience and while our beliefs, mostly about moral stuff, are not the same, I think that if she was not my mom we would pretty much be peers and still pretty good friends. She is really fun to geek out over fish with, which I had never suspected until I said I was going into marine science. That was when I found out that she used to be a science teacher and she pulled out all her old marine science textbooks and we started talking about all the squishy gooey things that live under the sea.

Basically my belief that she is the best mom ever was cemented when she surprised me with the I Feel Pretty shirt for christmas "because I know you like that site, and I didn't know if you had seen the shirt but I saw it and thought you would be tickled by it".
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #27 on: 09 Mar 2008, 16:34 »

Something to consider:

Do you really want your son or daughter to go around their entire adult life saying "Well, my momma said" to everything?

Humans are social beings. That is how we survive, by interacting and communicating with one another to find the best way of doing things. Respect is a huge issue in any society, and for damn good reason: if you earn and maintain people's respect, you can get things going your way and you are more likely to be successful in life. The ability to earn and maintain respect is a survival skill, and by refusing to allow your child to learn how to gain respect, you're pretty much damning them to a life of paper-pushing and shitty pay.

Telling your child that nothing they think will ever matter is just asking for them to fail at life.
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #28 on: 09 Mar 2008, 16:45 »

That is a good point, dismissing their thoughts and opinions is a good way to cause self-esteem issues, I should know, but that is thanks to our oh-so-wonderful school system which I can (and have) go on about for a few pages MLA-formatted.
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idiolect

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #29 on: 09 Mar 2008, 17:15 »

Something to consider:

Do you really want your son or daughter to go around their entire adult life saying "Well, my momma said" to everything?

Humans are social beings. That is how we survive, by interacting and communicating with one another to find the best way of doing things. Respect is a huge issue in any society, and for damn good reason: if you earn and maintain people's respect, you can get things going your way and you are more likely to be successful in life. The ability to earn and maintain respect is a survival skill, and by refusing to allow your child to learn how to gain respect, you're pretty much damning them to a life of paper-pushing and shitty pay.

Telling your child that nothing they think will ever matter is just asking for them to fail at life.


Is this a response to what Wet Helmet said??  I mean, it's not like every household must choose one of two options, those being total equality of decision-making power or complete and utter disregard.  None of what you're saying follows from simply stating that a household is not a democracy in which a child has an "equal" voice to a parent.  I think it's pretty obvious why that is a terribly bad idea, for all the reasons Wet Helmet has already stated.  None of those prevent a parent from treating their child with respect, letting them earn their trust, etc etc, all it means is that it's not OMG TOTALLY UNJUST when a parent makes a child do (or not do) something they don't want to, just by virtue of the child's disagreement. 

Anyway, the guy was obviously being a jerk though, especially if the other adult wanted him to turn it off -- that seems like much more of an issue to me.
« Last Edit: 09 Mar 2008, 17:18 by idiolect »
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #30 on: 09 Mar 2008, 17:24 »

Not an equal voice, no. But if your nearly-adult kid has a different idea about something than you, you should at least consider it and alter your plans accordingly, not just say "I'll consider it" and ignore them/tell them that they're wrong no matter what. If anything that's just going to breed resentment, and I want my kid to be able to not only succeed, but to know that I helped them develop the skills necessary to do the things they did.

A lot of people have the idea that their child is nothing but a mindless slave with just enough sentience to understand instructions to perform a task, and I'm mortified whenever I see people act accordingly. After childhood, the kid's got to survive somehow, and if they can't think for themselves, they're fucked.
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #31 on: 09 Mar 2008, 17:27 »

*whistle*

I would ask anyone who has got their panties tied in a knot over my posting to go back and read the very first thing I wrote in this thread.   In an effort to not be misunderstood, I went to great lengths to explain that I do listen to and respect my children and I do try to respect their wishes.    I also am pretty sure I mentioned that I didn't think what was going on the household (ie "It's mine") was cool.

That said, if you want to continue to believe I said anything else from this point forward, go ahead.    There are certainly plenty of people in this world who think I'm a dick.  A few more won't hurt me any.  Though I would prefer if that's the opinion that's going to be formed, it at least be for a good reason.

If you want to get hung up on minutia about watching tv or whatever... fine.   Don't get confused with what I'm speaking about --Kids get an equal vote that can potentially over ride a decision of the parent-- with someone acting like a pre-schooler and having a temper tantrum.

I have three kids.  There is one me.  I am outnumbered. Right now there is one tv on in the house and it's on cartoons.    I sure as hell didn't pick that.   The kids want to watch cartoons, I'm fine with that.    Hell, I can watch what I want after they're in bed.   Big freaking deal.

What they don't get to do is say "Hey Pop, we've decided that we're going to juggle chain saws in the living room and you can't say no because we represent a majority interest in this little debate."    See?  Because I'm going to shut something that is legitimately dangerous down.   That's my job as a parent.  Keep them alive, keep them safe.   Until they are self sufficient, I get veto power over their decisions. 

Don't confuse being a raging prick with exercising a little parental authority.  The two can be mutually exclusive.    My original post was addressing only the latter.

--edit:  The two posts above me appeared while I was typing this and I didn't re-preview.   
« Last Edit: 09 Mar 2008, 17:33 by A Wet Helmet »
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #32 on: 09 Mar 2008, 17:28 »

Idiolect: No, I think the point being made is more along the lines of how the "it's MY tv and MY house" reaction tends to show a lack of respect for the other individual, regardless of their status as child and parent. When I was a kid, I wasn't allowed to read at the table; my mom would often get onto my dad for trying to leave the TV on so he could watch the football game or golf tourney reflected in the window. It's the same thing, except in this case her mom's boyfriend disregarded his partner's desire for peace and (most likely) some sort of social family-type time at the dinner table, as well as someone else's desire to not watch football at all. And while I realise that not watching something just because someone else doesn't want to watch it makes you kind of a doormat, unless the other party is doing something important like studying or doing taxes or something, it doesn't mean you shouldn't take note of their request.

It's TV. It doesn't have to be symbolic of your relationship with your children and how you deal with them. It IS symbolic of how you treat with other people, though.



Dude, Wet Helmet, if you are referring to my post, I thought yours was merely thought provoking and recorded my thoughts in a subsequent post. I think pretty much everyone is talking about within reason here, unless someone has an El Bola situation that needs to be addressed. Also, remember that for almost all the people on this board do not have kids, and most (a majority, I think, but am not sure) do not want kids ever, so we speak from our experiences with our own parents and speculate about how we would go about parenting in theory. Also grow thicker skin.
« Last Edit: 09 Mar 2008, 17:33 by calenlass »
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #33 on: 09 Mar 2008, 17:36 »

Sure, but no one here was advocating just telling your kid they're wrong or useless or whatever.  My impression, at least, was that the only thing being argued against was this sense of grand injustice kids will have when they disagree with their parents about some decision -- because DEMOCRACYEQUALITYJUSTICEFREEDOMAMERICAFUCKYEAH etc etc.  Thing is, the parent is in a position of responsibility and authority over a kid -- hence there is none of this "equality" stuff you guys are talking about, and rightfully so.  But that doesn't mean the kid is TOTALLY OPRESSED AND IGNORED ALL OF THE TIME.  What that means is that a good parent will listen to their children, encourage them to develop those skills you're talking about, but be willing to make decisions and enforce them even if the kid doesn't like it in the immediate.  The reasons for this are often because of the kid's best interest (i.e. no ice cream for dinner, no dropping out of high school to join the circus, etc) -- and on the other hand, sometimes a parent ought to be able to make a decision like that for the sake of their own sanity, i.e. "We're going to watch my show right now because I want to and I've had a long day."  So much of a parent's life revolves around their kids, it seems reasonable to me that they should get to just DO stuff like that once in a while, especially considering that it's REALLY not a big deal for a kid to sit through a boring tv show or find something else to do (I mean, come on). 

However, as I said before, it sounds like that guy's a jerk for reasons totally unrelated to the above (but I guess he was trying to justify it with the above) -- that is, he's ignoring people during a family dinner in favor of a distracting machine that everyone wants him to turn off, including his "partner" (wife?) who he should certainly respect as an equal, and who arguably should have even more authority over what happens than he does in the presence of her own child so as not to undermine her authority in the view of the child. 

Warning - while you were typing 2 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post.


Gah.  I'm posting anyway -- sorry if some of this is obsolete by now.


(Added a few minutes later):
Also, remember that for almost all the people on this board do not have kids, and most (a majority, I think, but am not sure) do not want kids ever, so we speak from our experiences with our own parents and speculate about how we would go about parenting in theory. Also grow thicker skin.


Yow :/  It might also be worth noting that most of the people on this board are not only not parents but also were children themselves pretty recently.  I, at least, had a somewhat different opinion on and understanding of all this stuff just a few years ago, when I was legally an adult and pretty capable of taking care of myself but having moved out of my own parents' house only somewhat recently.  Your view of things starts to change a little when your friends start getting married and having kids, and I imagine it changes drastically when you yourself are in that boat.
« Last Edit: 09 Mar 2008, 17:43 by idiolect »
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #34 on: 09 Mar 2008, 17:41 »

No, I wasn't referring to your post specifically.  It was more of a comment of the general mood this thread has taken.   

One of the tragedies of this type of communication is that it lacks the typical non-verbal cues that accompany a conversation so it's hard to understand tone, etc.   Without the benefit of a couple thousand posts under my belt on this particular forum, I fully expect people not to 'get' my style.  Pretty much anything I type --ever-- is said with a smirk.  I've been doing this internet thing way too long to actually get upset about it.   (

Anyway... Knowing that people here don't know what to expect from me led me to come back and try to explain myself.  Probably should have stuck with my gut and let it slide without further comment.   If I offended anyone, I apologize.  That's not my intent, my sense of humor is kind of snotty.

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #35 on: 09 Mar 2008, 17:48 »

Also, remember that for almost all the people on this board do not have kids, and most (a majority, I think, but am not sure) do not want kids ever, so we speak from our experiences with our own parents and speculate about how we would go about parenting in theory.
Your view of things starts to change a little when your friends start getting married and having kids, and I imagine it changes drastically when you yourself are in that boat.



AHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

HAHAHA

ha

Oh hee hee kids. Yes. I am sure I will change my mind about wanting kids or marriage. Because me with kids is such a great idea! Hee hee hehehehehehe ha.
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #36 on: 09 Mar 2008, 17:50 »

Brings up an interesting point, there. I don't want kids myself so why the hell should I care how other people raise theirs? If they grow up to too productive I could be out of a job. Fuck thattttt
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #37 on: 09 Mar 2008, 18:00 »

I guess I am unlike most people here, I want kids, but eventually, once I have a good job and can actually support them, not before I get out of college, or (god forbid) in junior high, like someone my friend knows.
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #38 on: 09 Mar 2008, 18:14 »

Apparently, I'm damn near a clone of my Dad, minus his extra thirty years of experience and insight. We share a lot of the same mannerisms and personality traits.

My relationship with my parents (nowadays) is great. I try to visit them whenever I can, we're all into the same stuff, and we can have a conversation about nearly anything and agree on it. They respect my intelligence, and I respect their experience (not to mention, I'm fairly certain they're both smarter than me).  I love them both to bits.

There were a few rocky patches back in the day, but looking back, they all boiled down to me being a complete fucking brat. I'm glad to have grown out of that now.
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #39 on: 09 Mar 2008, 18:31 »

Helmet, it's ok. The number one thing I hate about internet conversations is the lack of non-verbal cues, as that is the number one thing in communication, so I'm with you on that. And also, I get what you're saying now. Some things are democratic, like what sports to play or programs to watch (that are age appropriate of course), and some things aren't, like riding your bike down a very steep driveway and crashing into a neighbor's mailbox because the street is too narrow to turn in time. (I did that. My mom said no, but I did it later when she wasn't looking. And yes, I learned my lesson and was relieved when I discovered blood did not creep me out.)

I don't want kids myself so why the hell should I care how other people raise theirs?

I understand this is a joke, but this sentence raises a good point. Shitty parents annoy the hell out of me.
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idiolect

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #40 on: 09 Mar 2008, 19:16 »

Also, remember that for almost all the people on this board do not have kids, and most (a majority, I think, but am not sure) do not want kids ever, so we speak from our experiences with our own parents and speculate about how we would go about parenting in theory.
Your view of things starts to change a little when your friends start getting married and having kids, and I imagine it changes drastically when you yourself are in that boat.



AHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

HAHAHA

ha

Oh hee hee kids. Yes. I am sure I will change my mind about wanting kids or marriage. Because me with kids is such a great idea! Hee hee hehehehehehe ha.



Thanks for engaging in conversation maturely there.  I wasn't talking about you in particular (and I think you know that), I was responding to what you said:

Quote
almost all the people on this board do not have kids, and most (a majority, I think, but am not sure) do not want kids ever


Maybe I should've used the more proper but stuffy "one" instead of "you" in what I said above, but I figure you (yes, actually you now) would understand what I meant.  In any case, I stand by my general statement that people who are barely out of childhood themselves are fairly unlikely to be completely sure that they don't want kids.  I'm sure there are some who totally know exactly what they want in this regard, but those are exceptions, not the rule.
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #41 on: 09 Mar 2008, 19:19 »

I say this hesitantly because I don't want to seem rude, but I think it's kind of immature for anyone to be so sure they'll never have kids. What makes you so different or special from other human beings? Don't you think many of our own parents ever felt the same way? Also, a lot of us are very young. Who are you to say you know who or where you'll be in some years? Ask anyone what they remember about being in their early 20s.
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #42 on: 09 Mar 2008, 19:39 »

Heck, I barely remember my mid-20s.

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #43 on: 09 Mar 2008, 19:42 »

A lot of human beings don't want and never have children so having no desire for them doesn't make you special or different at all. Technically I might change my mind and decide I do want kids after all at some point. I might also become a Christian, vote conservative and take a job in middle management. I could change my mind about anything, but it isn't very likely I'll go that way. The thing I find odd is that if you say you don't want children people will always be so sure that you'll change your mind when you get older. Some people just aren't interested. Kids are nice and everything but why are people always so sure you'll feel unfulfilled or something if you decide not to have any of your own?
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #44 on: 09 Mar 2008, 19:44 »

What makes you so different or special from other human beings?

Other people will not start living in a box within the next 5 years.
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #45 on: 09 Mar 2008, 19:49 »

I want kids. However, unlike a lot of people I know who are married and pregnant, I don't want kids right now. I mean, my mom didn't have me until she was 37. Personally, I think that's a bit late, but right now 37 seems a lot better than 22. And I mean this. Half of my circle of friends, who range from 19-late 20s, are married and about half of them have kids and/or are having kids. This makes me want to have kids right now even less, because the idea of having a kid right now scares the shit out of me.
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #46 on: 09 Mar 2008, 21:15 »

(To note--this isn't a response to anyone inparticular, just an exposition of my thoughts on the matter. So don't take it personally.) The parental argument of "This is not a democracy, this is not 'Let's Make a Deal'" is not only disingenuous and potentially dangerous, but also it's also a paradoxical abdication of responsibility. Rather than act a mature adult capable of carrying out a conversation and working to a resolution (even with children who are being insufferable), they simply resort to "this is my house, and things will be done as I say." In that way, they're being no better--perhaps worse--than the child throwing a tantrum in the drug store, wanting candy or a toy. Both reactions are brought about by the mentality, though it's subconscious in most, particularly in children, that it's their way and nothing else and god help you if you go against it. The child will pitch a fit, scream, cry, kick, fight and thoroughly embarrass you until you give in. The parent will punish, take, admonish, speak down to, and often times passive-aggressively insult the child until they give in. It's a pathetic response.

That's a nice sentiment, but it's an empty threat. What are you going to do? Kick them out on the street? Until they're old enough to care for themselves, the parental or guardian is legally culpable for them. Take away the Playstation, take away the TV, ground them, etc., but beyond that, there's really nothing you can do. With a young child, parental authority is, and has been for a half a century now, a paper tiger. Kids don't have any right to run amok and get whatever the hell they want, to cause chaos and act like little jerks in general, but they do have the right to have their their feelings, emotions and desires taken just as seriously as the adults of their family, even if they're ridiculous and outlandish at times.

By employing what are frankly autocratic methods, it's been proven that the neurotransmitters in the brain that are responsible for weighing judgment are rewired in a strange way--they wind up acting not in the way that evolution forged it, to determine "what will the be downsides and rewards to this action?", but instead "How harshly will [insert authority figure here] punish me for this? " which then taps into the parts of the brain responsible for anxiety, panic and fear. After a prolonged period of this, every time the child has to make a choice, the brain will automatically release the chemicals responsible for anxiety and fear, setting up the child for life-long and potentially crippling anxiety problems.

Basically, in summation, if your idea of dealing with a child is to pull the "I'm your parent, your elder, and I own the house" card, then you really shouldn't be popping out kids at all, because you lack the capability to provide the child with what is scientifically a healthy upbringing--that is, one of mutual respect, discussion and compromise.
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #47 on: 09 Mar 2008, 21:24 »

Apparently, I'm damn near a clone of my Dad, minus his extra thirty years of experience and insight. We share a lot of the same mannerisms and personality traits.

My relationship with my parents (nowadays) is great. I try to visit them whenever I can, we're all into the same stuff, and we can have a conversation about nearly anything and agree on it. They respect my intelligence, and I respect their experience (not to mention, I'm fairly certain they're both smarter than me).  I love them both to bits.

There were a few rocky patches back in the day, but looking back, they all boiled down to me being a complete fucking brat. I'm glad to have grown out of that now.
This is exactly my experience as well. I clashed with my parents as a kid, but it 95% of the time it was me being a goddamn stupid teenager who believed in his own personhood but wasn't nearly smart enough to take responsibility for things. The other 5% were misunderstandings. When I move out my parents will be my favorite people, I wager. This is the same for a lot of people, even here, I bet.

Man, it's only recently occurred to me how little I know about my dad. We sound the same and have the same mannerisms (we're very mild people) but all I know about his youth was that he went out to see the Stones and Zeppelin and Bowie and Springsteen and a bunch of people I love but will probably never witness.

And has anybody else noticed themselves becoming gradually more conservative as they get older? Not necessarily in the political sense, but rather in that they start to value stability and certainty more, and don't find themselves getting outraged at every little slight and discrepancy in their lives? Shit, I'm feeling it and I'm only 21.
« Last Edit: 09 Mar 2008, 21:30 by Kid van Pervert »
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #48 on: 09 Mar 2008, 21:48 »

I say this hesitantly because I don't want to seem rude, but I think it's kind of immature for anyone to be so sure they'll never have kids. What makes you so different or special from other human beings? Don't you think many of our own parents ever felt the same way? Also, a lot of us are very young. Who are you to say you know who or where you'll be in some years? Ask anyone what they remember about being in their early 20s.

One of my second-cousins recently died of cystic fibrosis. One of my great-grandmothers died of diabetes, and another had gestational diabetes. My maternal grandmother had a double lumpectomy, her father had multiple instances of melanoma, my great-uncle is currently fighting colon cancer, and my other great-grandfather died of testicular cancer. My paternal grandmother is on thyroid medication, the kind that if you don't take it for three days you die. Bipolar disorder and severe ADD run in both sides of my family. I am self-centered and irresponsible. I am greedy and selfish and lazy. I am terrified of forcibly inflicting myself on another human being, and likewise terrified of being inflicted with someone I potentially dislike for the next 20 years of my life. I cannot afford to support myself, much less someone else as well, and I do not want to give up my standard of living.

These are my reasons for not ever wanting kids. If they are immature, then so be it; in fact, that only strengthens my argument. Plus, if I ever change my mind about the non-medical issues, I can always adopt.
« Last Edit: 09 Mar 2008, 21:49 by calenlass »
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #49 on: 10 Mar 2008, 02:15 »

Calenlass, I believe you that you don't want kids, and I even agree with the above poster who said that it's weird that people do always assume that those who don't have kids will surely somehow "snap out of it" at some point down the line.  All I (and I'm assuming ruyi as well) am saying is that most people who are 20 probably haven't got a solid line on major life decisions like that quite yet.

Also, I totally don't believe you that your lack of desire to have kids stems from some kind of generous feeling of not wanting to inflict your genes on someone.  I mean, you could always adopt, or just play genetic roulette anyway like most people do.  I think you just plain don't want to have kids, and that is totally fine in and of itself.
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