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Author Topic: Get off my lawn!  (Read 83676 times)

Switchblade

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #50 on: 10 Mar 2008, 02:24 »

Quote
almost all the people on this board do not have kids, and most (a majority, I think, but am not sure) do not want kids ever

Even if that's the case (which I doubt), I suspect that it will change with time. The imperative to breed is one of the most deeply-rooted drives in the human subconscious - most people listen to it eventually. Maybe  you don't, which is fair enough... but I'd wager that you'll change your mind eventually.

I sure as hell want to be a Daddy. It's something I've always wanted to do, since I became old enough to get my head around the concept. BUT, I'm going to follow my parent's example and not do it until I'm ready - stable career, married for at least a year or two, all that lot. All of which means that there's at least another five years between me and parenthood at the moment

Quote
And has anybody else noticed themselves becoming gradually more conservative as they get older? Not necessarily in the political sense, but rather in that they start to value stability and certainty more, and don't find themselves getting outraged at every little slight and discrepancy in their lives? Shit, I'm feeling it and I'm only 21.

Most people go through a kind of "bell curve", apparently. Kids are ultra-conservative and don't deal with change well at all, which is why stable households are so important. Then you hit your teenage/young adult years where you're old and wise enough to deal properly with big shifts in your situation because they only affect you, and you're happy to accept that. Then, you become a parent and start becoming more conservative as any major changes to your life will affect your child as well.

Of course, that may or may not be true for the individual.
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Patrick

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #51 on: 10 Mar 2008, 03:19 »

That's what I'm afraid of: following my parents' example. You want to see failure? How about that divorce when I was 8. That really fucked me up and has caused me permanent damage (why yes, kids DO value stability) and I'll never get over it even though I know why they split and I hope they never speak to each other again because of it. I am worried that the same thing will happen to me. I am just as nitpicky and control-freaky as my father (ever wonder why I'm not in a band?)

Besides, the dynamic between the sexes is just annoying. I'm talking to somebody about this very topic right now, and it's pretty much a concensus that people are too symbolic, and a lot get pissy when nobody fucking gets what they're saying-but-not-saying. Hinting about what you want without saying it is really annoying, because god damn it I refuse to pick up on every shift of the eyebrow that can mean anything from "I like you" to "I will fucking gut you like a trout and do the same to your family" depending on the distance of a goddamn millimeter.
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #52 on: 10 Mar 2008, 03:22 »

I never used to think I'd want to have children, but suddenly in the last year or so I think a hormonal impulse has kicked in and I realise that I really do want to be a mother. I joke about wanting to have a baby now but the idea of being a teenage parent actually terrifies me, I wouldn't do something so stupid and it would be immensely selfish too, since I couldn't support the child and I wouldn't inflict a screaming infant on an already occasionally turbulent household (and vice versa).

Definitely, getting older can change your perspective on things. An obvious but fairly relevant example is eating vegetables, which I never used to enjoy but now have come to quite like. I see the logic in regular cleaning and sharing out household tasks, particularly since after my mum left (but before I went to live with her) I ended up taking on all the jobs at home and realised how boring and frustrating it was. It's a pity it had to wait until I actually had experienced the sort of unfairness my mum had lived with before I did something about it, but I suppose that's how it works mostly.

My mum's partner isn't a jerk in general. He's actually a very nice, very thoughtful man most of the time. I think it was ruyi who said that most of the problems probably stem from not knowing each other very well and I agree; we have very little in common and I was brought up in a different atmosphere to the one he is used to living in. I'm not sure that time will fix it, but I'm fairly certain that when I leave home and start living on my own, I will enjoy spending time with all my parents far more than I do at the moment.

And Kid van Pervert, I think as I've got older I've been less comfortable with change. I'm not sure if that's to do with increasing conservatism or just an insecurity about my future but it's certainly something I've noticed. Perhaps it's because when you're younger, the changes are less likely to be very drastic whereas when you get older, they're bigger and you have to deal with them alone.
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There's this really handy "other thing" I'm going to write as a footnote to my abstract that I can probably explore these issues in. I think I'll call it my "dissertation."

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #53 on: 10 Mar 2008, 06:34 »

So are you being deliberately obtuse or did you really miss the pains I took in my post to point out that I did not condone the behavior of the 'adult'?  I specifically address the belief of a minor child that he is an equal in the house and has some sort of veto authority.   Any child who is raised in such a household is being done a tremendous disservice and is being ill prepared for the really real world in which most of us eventually find ourselves.

Here is your first post. I would normally trust one to be able to scroll up and just read it again, but it seems you either didn't read it before posting it, or chose to deliberately ignore it and backpeddle at intense speed (Seriously, if you're going to pretend you said something different, at least edit it the post to pretend you're trying).

.. As far as I'm concerned, this should also apply to things like watching TV. If two people would rather not, then we shouldn't.


Oh, hell no.

Lookee here:  My kids get a tremendous amount of respect from me.  They really do.  I earnestly listen to what they have to say and what their wants and desires are and I take them into consideration.  I don't want to argue with my kids.  I don't want to piss them off.  I want them to be happy, and if I can make them happy, so much the better. They are not now --and until they are fully self-sufficient they will not be-- my equal though.  There isn't a vote.  They are children.     

It is my job to raise them.  It is my job to ensure that they are prepared to enter the world ready to pursue happiness by whatever means they determine best meets their own personal goals.  If I have succeeded as a parent, then they will do that without a) taking a premature dirt nap b) getting a sexually transmitted disease or c) going to jail.

In the meantime, I determine what is best for them --taking into consideration their wants-- and they do what I tell them, or face the consequences.   So though I personally don't think watching sports on tv during dinner is appropriate, I do see the fallacy of thinking there is equal voice.   "We outnumber you and we all want to eat ice cream for supper so that's what we're going to have."

Wrong. 

Can you explain to me how, in that entry, you didn't both heavily imply that the father was right and outright state that "There isn't a vote. They are children?" If you went to "great pains" to make it clear that the father was wrong and that you are all about fairness, then you done fucked up as it were, cause it assuredly does not even come close to coming off that way. Even with you getting defensive about it and my following up by re-reading it, it still reads as "Yeah, well, I'm an adult and they are not, so tough shit on them." In terms of relevance to the statement you were actually quoting, you outright say "Oh, hell no" and "wrong" in obvious reference to the aforementioned forumite's statement (Unless you were just quutoing him for shits and giggles). What exactly is he wrong about?

No one here's arguing that it's wrong to discipline kids or set boundaries. We all know it's ridiculous to allow one's kids to "juggle chainsaws," but there's no reason to say that one person's opinion matters more than another's, regardless of who's house it is or who's older, especially when the original person in question is less than a year away from the legal voting age.

Honestly, it looks more to me like you said something wrong or poorly worded, decided to get defensive and backpeddle with the speed of a fucking freight train.
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A Wet Helmet

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #54 on: 10 Mar 2008, 06:56 »

I'm going to share something with y'all.  It's not because I think I'm better, or smarter, or wiser than you.   I simply think that I've had 15-20 years of hindsight to examine my adolescence.

Here's some things I discovered upon examination:  Starting about 1986 I came to the conclusion that I was smarter than my parents. 
That I was capable of self sufficiency. 
That their guidance was irrational, controlling, and condescending. 
I was reasonably convinced that when I wasn't looking they goose stepped around in knee high, spit-shined, jack boots and plotted ways to deny me any fun, freedom, or friends.
I was absolutely certain that they didn't understand me, or what I felt.
I was convinced that my angst --nay, my rage-- was unique and that I was unique as well.  All of it, of course, was justified by the fact that I already knew everything I needed to know, that nobody understood me, and that old people were screwing everything up for the youth.   If people would just listen to me --and do things my way-- every thing would be much better.  Because I have it all figured out! Why won't you listen?

In short, though I understood that I didn't have the worst life possible, I was certainly going to get an honorable mention should that contest ever be held.  Likewise,  if there was a ever to be a 'boy-genius who is completely capable of making all his own decisions' competition, I'd place pretty well in that too.

In retrospect... not so much.

Starting about 1986, you could chart my bad decisions on a bell curve.  That bad decision quotient rapidly ascended through my teenage years to plateau at about age 18 through about age 22, where the curve starts a downward trend.

Sidebar:  I wish I knew there was an age somewhere where I would stop making poor choices.  Unfortunately, you can only really mark your trends with a few years perspective on those decisions.

So here's what's going to happen when you get older: 
You're going to realize that you don't know everything when you are 16, 18, 20, or 22.  In fact, the older you get, the more you'll realize you don't know much at all.
You're going to realize that you did some stupid shit when you were a kid
You're going to realize that you were an obnoxious pain in the ass
You're going to wonder how you survived to adulthood
You're going to see the ripple affect that seemingly inconsequential decisions make in your life.

And that last one is probably the most important one.  Things you do, or say, or decide now will literally shape the rest of your life.   Of course, you can't see that until it's happened.

I don't expect you (collective you) to believe me.  I fully expect a reaction of "You don't know me!".    Yeah, cool, I get it.   And you're right, I don't.  I don't know you.  Maybe you're the exception.  I'll concede that.   I'll say this as well though:  I thought I was the exception too... and so did everyone else.

So feel free to dismiss me now.  I'm not going to argue with you about it.  Honestly, I get plenty of absolutely pointless argument from my own teen age child.   I get it.  I remember.  You are a unique and beautiful snowflake.   That's awesome.  I'm sincerely rooting that you stay that way.

But if there's money on it, I'm betting that in 10, 15, 20+ years you're going to look back and say "Man, I was a dumbass" and you're going to look at the next generation and wonder why they don't believe you when you tell them you really do get it.
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Patrick

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #55 on: 10 Mar 2008, 07:00 »

Idunno man. Both my parents still think they know everything.
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #56 on: 10 Mar 2008, 07:04 »

Jeez, this thread moved fast...
Anyway, as for the original question (which i believe was what contributes to the generational gap/how do you feel about your parents): I get along really well with my Mom. I've never had any major problems with her, and as far as she's concerned we (As in my siblings and myself) will always be her kids and have a place to stay --she has no probem taking care of us, even when we fuck something up (i.e. my sister dropping out of college and mooching for two years). My Dad on the other hand...Class A-Asshole. I really have no idea whatsoever what my Mom has ever seen in him. She married him when she was 16 and pregnant with my older sister. He's selfish and lazy whereas my mother basically works herself to death working two jobs and is pretty fucking selfless when it comes to her family.  I think what really divides my siblings/ne and my parents is just the way that they were raised and their ideals. My Mom's family was fairly religious and tolerant while my Dad's family is conservative farmers...

As for everything else going on in the thread: Yeah, maybe i should keep my sentiment about having kids quiet, but I will share this: I was at work, working an express lane maybe two months after I had started. Well this guy, probably in his early forties with two kids in tow is checking out and he asks, "So do you have kids?" and I say, "I"m not really overly fond of children", being totally honest you know? I get enough of the rugrats at my volunteer job in the summers and people at work --I don't need my own thanks. Well, the guy looks really surprised because apparently you know, women are suposed to just love kids all the friggin' time... Well, his kid does something that's apparently cute as he's leaving, and he's like, "You should rethink that, isn't a face like that worth getting up for every morning?" I think I just raised an eyebrow and my inner thoughts were just like, "Not really..."

And this reminded me of something that I think is really unfair: Why can MEN get a vasectomy if they've never had children but women can't have their tubes tied until they do? That seems grossly unfair and biased doesn't it? I mean I think a woman an legitamently say she doesn't want kids --and you know what? If she changes her mind later in life, friggin' adopt! There are so many kids already in the world with no one love and take care of them. WHY DO PEOPLE KEEP HAVING MORE?! I guess I kind of understand the whole "Well, I MADE this " mentality, but that just seems...I don't know, cruel. Are you really going to shun a homeless little kid with no family? That's just mean.
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #57 on: 10 Mar 2008, 07:04 »

And has anybody else noticed themselves becoming gradually more conservative as they get older? Not necessarily in the political sense, but rather in that they start to value stability and certainty more, and don't find themselves getting outraged at every little slight and discrepancy in their lives? Shit, I'm feeling it and I'm only 21.

I dunno about this. Yes, I like stability, but I like change, too. Actually, I really really want things to change right now. I'm sick of the point I'm at in my life right now, but I think this is because graduation is looming around the corner and though I like the program I'm in, I'm sick of how the college (not the whole uni, just the college that has my major) treats my program. (This school, for how professional it's supposed to be and how design and architecture have #1 programs in the country, they are really fucking immature and snobby.) And I want to move and also travel and get a "real" job until I decide it's time for further schooling, which may or may not even be out of the country depending on how much money I can save in the next year or so. As long as I'm stable, I see change as a good thing. I'll settle later.

Edit: holy shit, lots o' posts before I could put this up.

Second edit: PQ, I don't know much about tubes being tied, but the internal plumbing of men and women is different. Men help make babies, but they don't actually have babies, so if what you're saying is true, I think that's why. Also, birth control is pretty easy to get when you have health insurance, but when you don't. Also, adoption is really hard, especially if you want a baby. It can take years on a waiting list, even if you want an older kid. Having babies is also instinctual, when you think about it, and also there are a lot of unplanned pregnancies. And also there's all that shit about kids not learning about any form of birth control other than abstinence, which is kind of fucked up.

Wet Helmet, I believe you. I heard a lot of stuff like this from my mom growing up and as I was very observant as a kid, I've also watched other people's lives follow the bell curve because of bad choices they've made. However, I don't think this argument is going to go anywhere, because everyone's life experiences are different. I don't think my bad decisions are NEARLY on par with most of the people I've known in the past 8 years.
« Last Edit: 10 Mar 2008, 07:25 by Linds »
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #58 on: 10 Mar 2008, 07:11 »

Seriously Obsessions?

I'll concede that I may not have communicated as clearly as possible but accusations of back pedaling?   I haven't back pedaled anywhere.   I addressed specifically the issue of children getting a 'vote' and I did that by excerpting the part that Barmymoo's post that I disagreed with.  That is:  The implied belief that a household should be a democracy with majority rule on every issue.

Other than to say I didn't think watching television during dinner is appropriate, I avoided any discussion of the behavior of the "father figure" (for lack of a better term) at all in my original post.  I went on in subsequent posts to elaborate.   

How are you confused by this?  Where is the back pedaling?  There isn't any.   
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Patrick

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #59 on: 10 Mar 2008, 07:13 »

Tube tying is entirely reversable, isn't it? Isn't that the idea behind TYING them instead of going snippy snippy?
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #60 on: 10 Mar 2008, 07:18 »

I think it's the other way around. Vasectomies are reversible (my boyfriend's dad had his reversed not long ago and now has a lovely baby girl), tube litigations are not.
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #61 on: 10 Mar 2008, 07:20 »

I thought both were reversable. My bad. :\
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Lines

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #62 on: 10 Mar 2008, 07:28 »

Tube tying is an incision, not actually tying your tubes. They make a cut so the egg floats out into your body instead of to the uterus. I don't know if it's reversible or not, but there is still that chance where a lady could get pregnant, though the chances are pretty slim.

Edit: Whoops, it's not always tying. Huh. Didn't think they actually tied them anymore.
« Last Edit: 10 Mar 2008, 07:35 by Linds »
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #63 on: 10 Mar 2008, 07:30 »

http://www.arhp.org/crc/sterilization.html

It seems to not be reversible.
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #64 on: 10 Mar 2008, 07:38 »

Idunno man. Both my parents still think they know everything.

My folks are the same way.   My mom, not so much, but my father very much so.   He still has to tell me what he thinks about every decision I make and if it's not the same decision that he would have made, well... then it's wrong.

Except that starting in my late 20s I began to realize that there were things that he didn't know.  Not only things that he didn't know, but things that I did.   I started realizing that there were things I could do that he couldn't.   That, I think, was very liberating for both of us.   So though he's still highly opinionated (as am I) we are able to communicate more as peers than we ever were in the past.   I actually see now that he has doubts and regrets, which are two things I never would have imagined my father capable of even when I was say... 25.  Probably because he never showed that side to me.  He's a lot more human now than he was then.

I also started to realize that my mother was smarter than I ever gave her credit for.   There is something to be said for the ability to hold a household together and do it pretty well.  I didn't really have any respect for that when I was younger, but I do now.  I find myself seeking the advice of my mother more now than I ever did as a kid.   She was also pretty insanely patient with me considering what a raging asshole I was.  She was also pretty tolerant of the clothes, music, art etc.    Far more so tolerant than I gave her credit at the time.
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #65 on: 10 Mar 2008, 08:31 »

Seriously Obsessions?

I'll concede that I may not have communicated as clearly as possible but accusations of back pedaling?   I haven't back pedaled anywhere.   I addressed specifically the issue of children getting a 'vote' and I did that by excerpting the part that Barmymoo's post that I disagreed with.  That is:  The implied belief that a household should be a democracy with majority rule on every issue.

Other than to say I didn't think watching television during dinner is appropriate, I avoided any discussion of the behavior of the "father figure" (for lack of a better term) at all in my original post.  I went on in subsequent posts to elaborate.   

How are you confused by this?  Where is the back pedaling?  There isn't any.   

Seriously, man. Reread your post. It came off as condescending to the girl you responded to and you seem to be the one misunderstanding people. She clearly didn't say anything regarding "every major issue." She said it was ridiculous for her mother's partner to watch TV at the table when two other people told him he shouldn't. You responded by saying she was wrong and that it's not a democracy and the child shouldn't get a vote, when her suggestion was entirely reasonable and something that SHOULD be questioned. I mean, if you agree that he was wrong, why even call her wrong? Were you just being contradictory for the sake of it or were you backpedaling? Which is it. If you meant something completely different, then you said it completely wrong to a point where you simply came off as an overbearing "I'm older and thus smarter" type.

Accounting first for the fact that, while yes a seventeen year old is not an adult, they are also by no means a child. I think you'd agree with me that you wouldn't be where you are now if you didn't start exploring your freedoms and boundaries when you were her age.

Your other post on the issue of "growing up" just reads as a condescending and dismissive "you'll agree with me when you're older, until then..." Seriously, you might as well have just quoted the entire thread and said "tl;dr." You might notice if you drop the seemingly defensive nature and stick around for a while, but overall this is a rather mature board. We have some severe tits, but there's a large group of frequent forumites who you would never know the age of by the way they word themselves and their overall attitude toward life. We are not a group of whony, emo "no one understands me" types as you seem to be implying we may be. I myself was a bit of a bitch of a teenager and have accepted as much, but I probably never would've grown out of that if my dad had ever once pulled the "it's my house and you will follow my rules" bullshit. Just as much as it would be presumptuous of me in my youth to assume that I know better than anyone else older than me, it would be presumptuous of you (And damn ignorant, no less), to assume that you know any better than the rest of us just because you're older. Age hasn't got shit on experience. And even then, half the time experience doesn't have shit on a brand new perspective. Take a time out and a step back and reevaluate what the Hell it is you're arguing and then let's all just try to be excellent.
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #66 on: 10 Mar 2008, 08:36 »

So here's what's going to happen when you get older: 
sweeping generalizations
Without getting into too many personal details, I am well past highschool, and looking back I still see a lot of the unreasonable things my mom did as being unreasonable, as well as seeing a lot of unreasonableness in how she deals with my sisters. Indeed, although I am 28 and teach college classes, my mom continues to scream and yell in her attempts to exert total control over everything in my life.

That said, I do agree with you overall. In my own case, I certainly perceive now how my own behavior was immature in many situations (sort of we-were-both-wrong rather than just she-was-wrong,) and that for all her faults my mom was doing her damndest to do right by me. However, your patronizing post (incidentally, this more than any of your specific points is why people are reacting negatively to you; you're so damn patronizing) implies that your exact situation will apply in exactly the same way to everyone, and that's a pretty silly attitude to have.

I'll concede that I may not have communicated as clearly as possible but accusations of back pedaling?   I haven't back pedaled anywhere.   I addressed specifically the issue of children getting a 'vote' and I did that by excerpting the part that Barmymoo's post that I disagreed with.  That is:  The implied belief that a household should be a democracy with majority rule on every issue.
Actually, the line you quoted was specifically about the TV watching, not just general household democracy. Certainly the line you quoted implied nothing as far as destructive behavior, what you are going on about. To soften your "hell no" about TV control to a more generalized point about parent-child dynamics is back-pedaling.

As for jon (obessions for those who don't know real names,) stop being an argumentative dick. So the guy back pedals a little bit, big fucking deal. If you're going to keep harassing people for the first thing they say, never letting them clarify their words or change their mind then, well as I said, you're being an argumentative dick.
« Last Edit: 10 Mar 2008, 08:52 by jhocking »
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #67 on: 10 Mar 2008, 09:29 »

He neither clarified nor "changed his mind." He's claiming that he never said anything to indicate that he isn't agreeing with the dad. I'm trying to come to an understanding on how that is. Yes, I am admittedly being argumentative, but I have my reasons. One of my biggest pet peeves, for the past ten plus years, has always been people who are condescending toward others based on age. If you don't find it justified, that's your opinion, but I'm hard pressed to feel I'm being unreasonable.
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #68 on: 10 Mar 2008, 09:40 »

christ, you are both so hard-headed. He states that he didn't back-pedal when he so clearly did, and you state he wasn't changing his mind, when he so clearly was. First he says the child shouldn't get a vote on the TV, then he later says that actually the parent was being unreasonable about the TV thing. Perhaps I'm missing something here, but how is that not changing your mind?

Coming from a different angle, what exactly do you want here jon? For wet helmet to be like "omg you're right, I'm an idiot and you're a genius"?

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #69 on: 10 Mar 2008, 09:41 »

I'm sorry you feel that I've been condescending when that wasn't my intent.   In my experience, people who look for reasons to be offended can always find one.  It looks like you've found your reason. 

Jhocking:  You're absolutely right that I made sweeping generalizations in that particular post.  I'm not sure how you can characterize a collective "you" without doing so.  I also understand there are exceptions.   The quoted line was about the t.v., true, because that's what I had to work with.  The intent of my post was to speak to the concept of a household being a democracy.  I don't believe that it can be, and be functional.
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #70 on: 10 Mar 2008, 09:56 »

You're absolutely right that I made sweeping generalizations in that particular post.  I'm not sure how you can characterize a collective "you" without doing so.
The best way to avoid the problem is not to characterize others for them. The top half of your post where you describe yourself and your own hindsight realizations was effective at conveying your point, while the remainder of your post was rather patronizing and thus mildly insulting.

As for the TV watching bit, I think jon's entire problem comes down to the "hell no" in your original post. Instead of coming down like a hammer, it probably would have been more effective for you to open with what you've said since  ie. "while in this specific situation with the TV the father was being unreasonable, in general a household cannot and should not be a democracy." Notice how much more respectful and open to discussion that approach is?

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #71 on: 10 Mar 2008, 09:58 »

"Teaching QC starring the enigmatic Joeseph Hocking is a heart-wrenching..." [Fresh]
"Teaching QC is a stunning return to form for Joeseph Hocking and the..." [Fresh]
"A story that has been told countless times in film, once more tediously retrodden..." [Rotten]
"You'd think Teaching QC would be boring from reading the premise, but thanks..." [Fresh]
"You have to wonder just what Joeseph Hocking was thinking when he agreed to this..." [Rotten]
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #72 on: 10 Mar 2008, 10:12 »

The intent of my post was to speak to the concept of a household being a democracy.  I don't believe that it can be, and be functional.

This is where I can't seem to see eye to eye with you on it. How is it that it upends the functionality of the household? Given, that obviously your kids shouldn't overrule you on spending decisions and the like, but I feel that trivialities and the occasional more major decision should definitely be open to consideration, especially when teenagers are involved. Stifling such democracy can lead to full scale revolts when it comes to teenagers. I mean, look at it this way: a questionable decision is a questionable decision, no matter who makes it. A democracy isn't a matter of "everyone makes every decision." I'm pretty sure the US wouldn't launch nukes if 51% of the US said, "Hey, let's launch us some nukes." The obviously bad ones like the aforementioned juggling of chainsaws or something like playing with fireworks in the house should be a practical non-issue (I say practical as not every kid develops inherent common sense, just telling a kid "no" isn't going to resolve the issue, they'll just find a way to do it behind your back to either see why they shouldn't or just to prove you wrong). There's always plenty of missteps parents can make which can eventually lead to trouble. A common mantra from my parents when I was under ten was "you have to be nice to your sister because she doesn't know better" (She's mentally ill in many a way), but as soon as I hit middle school, I started testing that boundary because they hadn't properly explained it to me. By the time I was a teenager and I still questioned the issue, eventually we came to a common understanding that, yes, I was way more confrontational than necessary, but they also babied her way too much and this resulted in a "more they give, the more she takes" attitude. We were both wrong, but my parents had the good grace to eventually wise up to the fact that sometimes your kids are right and you are wrong. Now, I obviously don't know you, but everybody makes mistakes and thusly that would determine that every parent makes mistakes. Eliminating the democracy of a household insures that those mistakes will happen with frequency as it eliminates the possibility of an alternative perspective and, worse yet, it plays horribly against the psychology of children where they have a constant desire to push every boundary placed upon them.

A prime example would be the difference between my upbringing and my friend Amanda's (I choose her as she grew up in the same neighborhood, same size family and same income background). My parents had a loose hand with me, very fair and balanced. I didn't have a curfue (Within obvious reason, boundaries were not explicitely stated, but I knew better than to stay out until 1 on a school night), provided I gave them some indicator of where I was. I was trusted to make my own decisions and mistakes, because a child never really learns until they fuck up on their own. This seems to have worked out rather well, as I'm further along and better adjusted in the real world than a very small handful of exceptions amongst people I know. Given, the easy going nature of my parents kept me in the house a bit later than some (I moved out at 20) as I had no specific motivation to leave other than wanting to make it on my own. The difference between me and a lot of others I know who moved out earlier is that a large chunk of them are back home by now, as they weren't prepared.

Meanwhile, the aforementioned "friend" had a very, very strict single parent upbringing. She had a step dad who was a bit overbearing. He was strict and it was his way or the highway. Soon as she hit eighteen, she bolted with her boyfriend. The sudden influx of freedoms and being able to make all of her decisions without parental oversight wrecked her shit. She disappeared from the radar for a long time. I just heard from her a couple weeks ago for the first time in years. She's living with her grandparents because she went up to the city and got herself a nice coke habit. She's both a physical and emotional wreck. That's not to say that all children with overbearing habits are going to turn out to be coke fiends, but it's rather telling.

The prime difference in our upbringings that I feel made the big discrepancy? That freedom of choice and democracy in the household. As I said, my parents let me make my own mistakes. I may have fucked up more than some as a teenager because I had the freedom to do so, but this put me a long way toward not pulling the same fuck ups when I got the full freedom of being on my own. She didn't know her limitations because all of her limitations were parentally enforced. It all falls into the old addage of "you can't teach an old dog new tricks." Kids are still growing and it's much easier to learn and change at a younger age. That's how we develop that teenage "I'm smarter than everyone" phase. If a kid makes a stupid decision, it's a lot easier for them to adapt to it and change their lifestyle accordingly than an adult. If I hadn't made those fuck ups as a kid, I'd be making them now when I can't afford to the emotional turmoil or physical pain that comes with it.
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jhocking

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #73 on: 10 Mar 2008, 10:18 »

"You have to wonder just what Joeseph Hocking was thinking when he agreed to this..." [Rotten]
MY THREAD MY RULES

A democracy isn't a matter of "everyone makes every decision." I'm pretty sure the US wouldn't launch nukes if 51% of the US said, "Hey, let's launch us some nukes."
Totally irrelevant point, but technically that is how a pure democracy works. Most people ignore the subtle distinction, but the US is a constitutional republic, not a pure democracy.
« Last Edit: 10 Mar 2008, 10:24 by jhocking »
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Barmymoo

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #74 on: 10 Mar 2008, 10:23 »

Something I noticed, particularly when my parents' marriage broke down completely but also a bit before that, was that I had never really realised as a child that my parents could make mistakes. Once I reached my teenage years, I started to see them as people and therefore fallible.

I think it's illustrated by the way that small children see adults as "my teacher" or "my friend's mum" whereas when you get a bit older, they become people with names and a backstory. I was fostered for a while by the parents of some younger friends, and I used to see the adults as "Emma's mum and dad". Now, Emma is "Susan's daughter". Maybe that's more to do with the difference between being an adult and being a child rather than between my parents and I, but it's definitely an age definer.

Also, Obsessions, thusly? That's the best word ever! I've never heard it before, is it real?
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #75 on: 10 Mar 2008, 10:27 »

Yes, it is a real word --the dictionary on Office '07 says  it means "the same as thus"... the LY just makes it more fun.
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #76 on: 10 Mar 2008, 10:28 »

Totally irrelevant point, but technically that is how a pure democracy works. Most people ignore the subtle distinction, but the US is a constitutional republic, not a pure democracy.

This I was actually aware of, but I was basically sticking with the word democracy for continuity's sake. Nothing in this world is a pure demoracy and I assumed we were just going with the ideals of a republic.
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jhocking

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #77 on: 10 Mar 2008, 10:28 »

I think it's illustrated by the way that small children see adults as "my teacher... whereas when you get a bit older, they become people with names and a backstory.
Oh yeah, I totally notice this now that I'm teaching. Many of the undergrads I teach are only just beginning to recognize that the teacher is just another person who happens to already know whatever the class is about, whereas many grad students are older than I am.

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #78 on: 10 Mar 2008, 10:33 »

That's an interesting question, possibly for another forum (and possibly not at all, since it can lead to arguments), about whether the US is a democracy. Does anyone know of anywhere I can find an article or a discussion about it? We touched briefly on the topic in my Law class but mostly we concentrate on the UK system.

At my college we call our teachers by their first names, which I feel helps us to know them as people rather than as entities. At my school, which has a sixth form attached (college and sixth form are fundamentally the same thing with some very small differences, you choose which to go to ususally), the teachers are referred to by their titles (Mr Smith etc). The fact that this happens at all is also proof of a difference in attitudes these days.
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #79 on: 10 Mar 2008, 10:43 »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_republic

At my college we call our teachers by their first names, which I feel helps us to know them as people rather than as entities.
The other thing I do to help students along with growing intellectually is chatting about my experiences learning the material. Occasionally it backfires because I come across as condescending, but overall it helps students to feel more confident about learning the material when they realize it's not like I was born knowing this stuff.

Can you imagine guys, being trapped in a classroom and forced to listen to my stories? doesn't it sound wonderful

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #80 on: 10 Mar 2008, 10:46 »

It could be worse, I went to school for Secondary Education for a couple semesters...
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #81 on: 10 Mar 2008, 10:49 »

Are your stories funny and can we have cookies?
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #82 on: 10 Mar 2008, 11:00 »

I would much rather listen to your stories than feel the awkward tension that appears every time I'm in my Broadcasting and Film writing class whenever the teacher stops talking mid sentence and leaves the room for fifteen minutes.
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Yeah, I mean, "I won't kill and eat you if you won't kill and eat me" is typically a ground rule for social groups.

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #83 on: 10 Mar 2008, 11:23 »

my parents smoke pot to feel normal after a stressful day; i smoke pot to get stoned and listen to Holy Fuck.

also, they drink more expensive beer than i do.
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #84 on: 10 Mar 2008, 11:24 »

Even if that's the case (which I doubt), I suspect that it will change with time. The imperative to breed is one of the most deeply-rooted drives in the human subconscious - most people listen to it eventually. Maybe  you don't, which is fair enough... but I'd wager that you'll change your mind eventually.

I sure as hell want to be a Daddy. It's something I've always wanted to do, since I became old enough to get my head around the concept. BUT, I'm going to follow my parent's example and not do it until I'm ready - stable career, married for at least a year or two, all that lot. All of which means that there's at least another five years between me and parenthood at the moment.

I don't think the desire for children is just about an evolved psychological imperative. I think culture also has a lot to do with it, and that there is a message in ours that having children at some point is a necessity to be happy and that you're actually a bit weird if you don't. Personally I disagree. I'm sure it is for some people just as it's necessary for me to make art of one kind or another for me to be happy, but there are a lot of people who can be perfectly happy with their lives without that. I have a lot of friends in their thirties but only one of the ones who don't already have children have any desire to have them. So don't be so sure that people who say they don't want kids in their twenties will change their minds, plenty don't.

Perhaps one reason I don't want kids is related to what you say about the stage in your life where you want to have them. It's a sensible route to take but also not one I plan on going down. I don't have an interest in getting a stable career and I'm averse to getting married (a steady partner yes, but not marriage). Rather than wanting more stability and clear direction in my life as I've got older I've come to want less. I like the fact that I have no idea what I'll be doing or where I'll be living two years from now. The teenage me would be quite surprised that I don't have a settled career by this point, but I came to realise that many things I was taught to believe I should want were not at all what I really desired out of life, such as a nice house and car, good career, marriage and children.

None of this is to suggest that you yourself or anyone else only wants kids or a career or whatever because of societal conditioning. But I think it is the reason people are so sure that others either secretly want them too or will come to in time.
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #85 on: 10 Mar 2008, 11:53 »

Ah ha! We have a frame of reference issue.

For the record, when I use the term 'democracy' that is exactly what I mean.  One voice = one vote and majority rules.   I believe --and will hold on to the belief-- that that is untenable in a household.

Let's step back a little, let some of the vitriol settle, and let me see if I can weave a couple of anecdotes into something that makes sense when I'm done.

I used to have two guys who worked for me.  They were from the same place, were the same age, had the same interests, and were friends outside of work.   Dealing with them should have been pretty much a rubber stamp process right?   Nope.  Not by a long shot. 

One of them was 100% praise motivated.  If you so much as looked at him funny he took it as a criticism and he would literally mope for weeks.  His work performance would suffer for it.    If you wanted him to do something you had to tell him, "Look, you're the best guy I've got for this ok?  That's why I've chosen you..."   It was a non-stop ego stroke with him.   If there was something you wanted him to improve a little bit in it was "Oh man! You kicked so much as at this last week, and you're the best in the whole organization at that, and why couldn't everyone do something else as well as you?  You know what though?  Tom told me that Bob can do something else entirely just a little bit better than you.  I told Tom 'fuck no' and that you're the best at it.  He says...."

See what I mean?  An extreme example of praise motivation was required or this guy was absolutely fucking useless.

His buddy on the other had, was exactly the opposite.  If I didn't find something to literally scream at him about at least once a week, he thought that I was ignoring him and he'd go out of his way to fuck something up royally so that he would be the center of my attention.  With him, praise didn't do a thing.  Screaming did.   My conversations with him would usually involve a closed office door, me in his face with spit flying out of my mouth threating violence on him.   He'd be out of the office like one of those Evil Knieval wind up toys.  Motivated and moving fast for a couple of days, but then he'd kind of wind down, realize that I wasn't on his ass, and fall over.  Or, in a more literal sense, do something really stupid so that he'd get in trouble.  So I would have to look for little things to yell at him about before he felt like I didn't care about him anymore and he screwed something up really badly.

Two guys who required radically different communication styles to get the same result.

So having the understanding of myself that communication requires more than just "I say it, everyone gets it" I will often seek to clarify, especially if it becomes apparent (quickly!) that I'm being misunderstood. And that's what I call it too... clarification.  My point hasn't changed, though my method of explaining it might.  That's somewhat different than back pedaling in my book.   I didn't 'spit it out' in a manner that people got what I was saying the first time, I'm going to try to convey my point through a different approach.  I have a dry sense of humor, I'm sarcastic, and I'm snotty.  It's hard enough to pull off in person and not piss people off,  it's ridiculous to think that I can do it on a web forum.   But it's who I am.  It's how I talk, and if I think I'm upsetting someone unintentionally, I'm going to try to clarify that. 

Rarely --and I mean rarely-- do I deliberately try to incite someone. 

Part two:

I'm going to tell y'all something that I'm relatively certain won't be believed at this point.  Perhaps after I'm a little better known it will be.

I'm a cool-as-hell parent.

Seriously.


Here's how it breaks down, just so we know who I'm talking about:  I have a 13 year old daughter, a son who is about to turn 7, and a four year old daughter.

When my 13 year old asks me if she can go out, I ask her "What time will you be home?"   I don't say "Be home at whatever o'clock."   I try to give her the option to come up with something reasonable and then I hold her to it.   If it was say, a school night, and she wanted to go out and told me she'd be home at three a.m., my response would be "try again" until she got down to something reasonable.  I do my best to let her determination of reason preempt mine if I can't find anything inherently dangerous about it.   Because I do think that kids need to make their own choices and their own mistakes.  Within reason.  As soon as life, limb, or eyesight might get compromised, I reserve the right to put my foot down.

Here's where it gets funny with this one:  I go to great lengths with her to explain my reasons for doing something whenever it impacts her.   If I have to tell her "No", I always want to explain why. My folks were "because I said so" types and I hated it.  I don't want to do that with my kids. She, however, doesn't care.  All she hears is that "No" and doesn't want to hear a thing that I have to say.   My other two --who are much younger and could change-- on the other hand, will listen raptly to the reasons behind my  parental veto and usually are ok with it once they understand it.

The oldest though... she'll abuse any privilege that you give her.  Phone, internet, going out, going shopping... it doesn't matter.  It's never enough with her.  She wants what she wants when she wants it, and anything that stands in the way of that is awful.   

She was recently restricted from the phone and the computer.  I don't really like to punish but there were a slew of incidents leading up to it.  One of the things was I caught her on the phone with her friend at 12:30 on a school night.   I came upstairs and herd her talking.  I looked at the phone base station and it showed that there was  a call on.  She heard me coming and she hung up.   

Me: "Are you on the phone?"

Her: "No"

Me: "Were you on the phone?"

Her: "Yes"  (Well hooray for her for not lying.  That was a bad habit that took a looooooooong time to break)

Me: "Your mother told you not to use the phone and it's 12:30 at night. On a school night."

Her: "Oh, you know, I forgot Mom said no phone and I didn't realize it was so late"

Me: "Oh, you didn't know you were doing something you shouldn't have been doing then?"

Her: "No"

Me: "Then why did you hang up when you heard me coming?"

Busted.  She knew. 

Anyway, the point is for a variety of reasons she lost her phone and internet privileges.  She did really really well not sneaking around (another problem we've had with her) so I gave them back with a congratulations for doing so well, I really appreciate the maturity you've shown, etc.  When I took them away I made a point of saying that I'm not trying to keep her from the phone, and I'm not trying to monitor what she's doing.  What she needs to do is realize when it's appropriate to use the phone, and when it's not.  She needs to have the maturity to say to herself "It's getting late, I should be in bed, I'll call tomorrow".   THAT is all that I want her to demonstrate to me.  That she is capable of doing things with a modicum of responsibility.   She's not though... yet.     She still has to have it *all* right fucking now.

I give her the phone and the internet back on Friday.  On Saturday morning she was sitting at her computer and I asked her to do something to help her mother that would take all of about five minutes.   She says "Ok".   Fifteen minutes later she's still at the computer.  I remind her again that she needs to help her mom with something and that mom is basically waiting on her.   "Ok, I'm getting up now" she says.  Ten minutes later she's still sitting there.   What choice do I have at that point but to say "Get up now and help your mother." ?   

I don't like doing it.  I don't want to do it, but she does things the hard way.  Instead of placing the needs of others above her own wants for all of five minutes (which is a sign of maturity) she had to turn me into asshole dad telling her do it now.   She got right back on the computer and was almost late for music lessons because she didn't want to get up and get ready to go.   

She almost missed the bus this morning because she was on the phone.    Her missing the bus is not something that only impacts her.  Her school is is ten miles away.  Either her mother or myself then has to take her, and she's got a little brother and sister that need to be ready to go at certain times too.  If she's not on the bus, the entire morning schedule is blown.

So I'll let her make her own mistakes, and I'll let her make her own choices, right up to the point where they become dangerous or have a detrimental impact on others.   If that makes me a shitty parent, then I'm a shitty parent.  But I believe that some parental structure and guidance is critical to understanding that there are consequences for the choices you make, and sometimes you don't get exactly what you want in life. Sometimes, consequences are good, sometimes they are bad.  Otherwise, that realization comes as a judge is banging a gavel, or the paramedic is running an IV.
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Valrus

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #86 on: 10 Mar 2008, 12:15 »

Quote
Otherwise, that realization comes as a judge is banging a gavel

Yeah I think we can agree that that judge is probable making a Bad Decision and there will be Consequences.

what?
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #87 on: 10 Mar 2008, 12:21 »

Wet Helmet, you do sound like a good parent, and I never meant to say that you weren't. All I was originally meaning to say was that it's a difference in attitudes between myself and my mum's partner that I think is related to age.

On the other hand, the examples you are citing are different to the one I gave, in that the things you don't let your children do are dangerous or stupid in some way. In my example, it was more about me having an opinion that was disregarded on the grounds that I'm a teenager and he's an adult. My mum didn't say anything much until after the argument, although we all knew already that she isn't a football fan or a fan of television while we eat.

This thread seems to have started dissolving into a bit of an argument, I'm afraid that might have been my fault. But it's interesting!

Also, thanks for the wikipedia link whoever that was :-)
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #88 on: 10 Mar 2008, 12:26 »

Bluntly speaking, your anecdote only speaks to me in a manner of you just had two really damn high maintenance employees who both needed to sack up and learn to motivate themselves. I wouldn't be surprised if this has something to do with why they "used" to be your employees.

In terms of your daughter, that's something I admittedly have very limited understanding on. The only obvious frame of reference is first child syndrome combined with the five year difference between her and her next sibling. All three in my family are within close age proximity of each other (My older sister is actually closer to my youngest brother in age than your two oldest are), so my parents learned second child and third child lessons quick enough to be able to still apply them relatively seemlessly before any of us got too old for them to be properly applied and not protested too hard. Beyond that, it's hard for me to determine since, as I mentioned earlier, my sister has some severe mental illness. This pretty much upended all birth order trends and psychology as the roles are very hard to peg as a result.

Honestly, it would seem that a good portion of all this has been a perfect storm of semantics, misunderstandings and poor wording/stubborness on both of our parts and I apologize for my end of it.
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #89 on: 10 Mar 2008, 12:31 »

On the plus side, my word count has crossed 200.

What sort of things do you mean by second and third kid lessons? I'm three years older than my brother and I think we were brought up in a similar way, although I was expected to be a good example (I wasn't really) and he goes to a fee-paying school whereas I went to a state school. I'm not sure if that was a good decision or not (for him, I mean. I loved my school). So I can't really think of many lessons they learnt from me. On the other hand, I was a small child at the time and they'd probably have a better perspective. But I've talked about this sort of thing with my mum and I don't remember her saying anything in particular to suggest she did anything different with him.
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jhocking

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #90 on: 10 Mar 2008, 12:41 »

The main thing my parents learned from me is to have daughters.

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #91 on: 10 Mar 2008, 12:46 »

Parenting is a learn by doing sort of situation. No matter how many books you read or what kind of instincts you have, it's not an exact science. Typically parents will adjust certain nuances of their parenting and in some cases do things completely different with subsequent children. Subsequent children tend to be a bit easier on the parents as they've learned by doing with earlier children.
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Darkbluerabbit

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #92 on: 10 Mar 2008, 12:48 »

What sort of things do you mean by second and third kid lessons?

I am the oldest of three, and my siblings are definitely treated differently than I was.  As the first to hit high school, I was given a lot of rules that were pretty strict.  For example, when I was fifteen years old my mom or dad went with me on my first dates, which was awkward as hell and a testament to my poor first boyfriend's patience.  My parents have since relaxed a lot, and give my brother and sister more reasonable guidelines.  My mom has actually apologized to me for being so overbearing, I was just the guinea pig when it came to childrearing in my family.  This is also a good example of how parents don't always make the best decisions for their kids. 
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Siert

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #93 on: 10 Mar 2008, 12:53 »

~Right so some background I am 19 nearing the mighty 1/5 a century in the next few months. And over the past ocuple of years I've kept a  tally out of sheer curiosity. this tally comprises of who I used to know in my earleir teens, who has kids.

The tally is up to 12 girls I know have kids, thats not including the guys, this is just the girls I knew who have had kids / are pregnant, one of which is onto their third already!

Another thing that makes me realise I am getting older is watching cartoons, I actually go out of my way to watch cartoons and sitcoms from the 1990s. While I watch cartoosn these days and go "they are too childish!" Dear me, that made me feel old. Granted I'm only 19 its kinda a shocker!
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #94 on: 10 Mar 2008, 12:54 »

Obsessions, I had to laugh at the assertion that the second and third kid tend to be a bit easier. I wouldn't know, in general, but my younger brother was apparently completely opposite from me, so my parents had the backwards effect: all the lessons they had "learned" from raising me, they had to un-learn when dealing with him.

Anecdotal, I'm sure, and doesn't prove or disprove anything.
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Barmymoo

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #95 on: 10 Mar 2008, 12:57 »

when I was fifteen years old my mom or dad went with me on my first dates

Wow. I was about to say that I found that really weird, then I realised that my first date did in fact include my family. Said first boyfriend came to a dance with us. So it's not as odd as I thought.

Might be a good idea actually, in some ways. I mean, a guy who is prepared to put up with the presence of parents is more likely to be a keeper than one who isn't.
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A Wet Helmet

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #96 on: 10 Mar 2008, 12:58 »

you just had two really damn high maintenance employees who both needed to sack up and learn to motivate themselves.

High maintenance is an understatement.  I've never had anyone since who comes even remotely to either end of the spectrum.  Thankfully.

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Honestly, it would seem that a good portion of all this has been a perfect storm of semantics, misunderstandings and poor wording/stubborness on both of our parts and I apologize for my end of it.

And I for mine.


Barmymoo:  I took the next logical step with what you implied and probably could have done a whole lot better communicating my meaning from the get-go.   For the record, I agree that there probably is an age/male dominance issue there.  Why your mother puts up with it is beyond me.  But why my mother puts up with some of my father's shit is beyond me as well.

In all honesty I think we get to a certain point in our lives where there are certain things we aren't willing to compromise about.  There isn't necessarily any rhyme nor reason to why we chose these little battlefields to stand on.   There isn't any logical reason behind it, and there is no 'good' justification.   We're just sick of compromising and we draw a line in the sand.    When you're in a relationship, you have to chose whether or not you accept the other person's lines.    It's unfortunate that a dynamic that works for your mother impacts you.
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Barmymoo

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #97 on: 10 Mar 2008, 13:34 »

The conflict is rarely, if ever, between my mum and her partner. I think, without sounding like I'm wallowing or being melodramatic, that I have a problem with connecting with father-figures. I had similar problems with my dad, which is why I don't live with him any more, and when I was living with friends I connected best with my foster mum and sisters, and not so much with my foster dad.

Maybe as you get older, you start to realise that the happy ending we're looking for as a child isn't necessarily going to work. The people I've fallen for in a romantic sense aren't the people I have connected with in an emotional or intellectual sense. Now is the first time when I've found someone who overlaps both groups. Sadly he doesn't seem to agree, but hey, that's teenagerdom for you. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that another thing that comes when you're older is relationships with a bit less drama!

Siert, I fully sympathise with your 90s cartoon-watching. Today's kids TV is terrible.
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #98 on: 10 Mar 2008, 13:39 »

Siert, I fully sympathise with your 90s cartoon-watching. Today's kids TV is terrible.

thank you, you have no idea how many people think im strange for liking the 90s cartoons!

Perfect example, rugrats, they are a bunch of babies who imagine they are in a fantasy world, becoming indiana jones or egyptians crossing the sandpit, or avoiding the mosnter of the dentist, but... all there stories end hapy, the kids get their injection, they find their toys, they get lollypops, its all good.

These days, we have "Kids next door" who tell kids that adults are all evil and all a dentist wants to do is ruin your teeth!

I mean seriously...
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #99 on: 10 Mar 2008, 13:50 »

Wet Helmet, you do realize that the way you described your daughter is the way most people her age are, right? People in their middle-teens tend to not be the most level-headed and rational people. You're absolutely right that teenagers who act like they know everything and are the shit are ignorant and in truth don't know much. But that's true of people of every age. There's always people who think that they know everything there is to know, that they're done learning and the way they do things is the only way things should be done. And that's mostly a quality that's attributable to the elderly and to parents.

The whole rebellion thing needs to happen. The child has to break away from the parental unit, no matter how "cool" the parent might be, and they often have to break away violently. It's a societal and, in many ways, a biological need. The alternative is the complete stifling of emotional and intellectual growth and the instillation of dependency. You can break a minor's back if you crack down on them hard enough and often enough, but the end result of that will be 100 times worse than the hot-headed rebellion and irrationality that you're dealing with.

Often--not always, but often--anger, on the part of a person who is coming of age, is a good thing, as long as they then mature and leave that anger behind in favor of acceptance and a calm determination. But until then, a healthy level of anger is necessary. I's needed. It provides the fuel that's required to move them forward into adulthood. No matter how maddening it is, it's something that has to happen, and you might as well embrace it and just do what you can to stop them from going too far, and working to help them facilitate that anger and channel it in productive ways.

Frankly, it's not really responsible of you to try to keep the "status quo" in place, when what you're trying to hold on to with your daughter is already gone. When anger and rebellion is used in a productive, rather than destructive way, it often leads to results that capitulation couldn't achieve. Witness the American Revolution, the abolitionist movement, every progress on the issues of Rights and Equality for races, sexes and sexual orientation.

The household has to be a democratic place, including many of the large decisions, within reason. With all respect, it sounds like you're just doing more harm than good right now in the way you're handling your daughter.
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