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[MadassAlex]

Bringing race into this argument is absolutely ridiculous.

How does the difference between choosing to be a skinhead and just being black make discrimination against them any less questionable? Or are you saying that it's more okay to discriminate against, say, emos because they chose to be the way they are? Like the metalheads, punk and skinheads described in the article are doing.

[Jackie Blue]

Actually I have known around 50 skinheads in my life and none of them were racist, and they all called themselves skinheads precisely BECAUSE they wanted to reclaim the original meaning of the term.

I've been all over this country and seriously, in America, neo-Nazi skinheads are way more rare than they used to be (partly because so many traditional skinheads exist who take pleasure in kicking the shit out of them if they see them harassing a person of color or a homosexual).

[KharBevNor]

I don't think I know a single racist Skinhead.

I know a Jewish Skinhead who has some pretty terrifying opinions about what should be done to Palestine, does that count?

Also, why should I not be allowed to equate discrimination based on sartorial taste with other forms of discrimination? Subculture is at least equivalent with religion. My freedom to dress how I see fit is part of my freedom of expression, a basic human right easily on a par with freedom of worship. Fact of the matter is, I suffer discrimination almost every single day based on how I look. And really, fuck it all.

[Hat]

It's simple. Saying, "These people are this way" is the same as saying "These people are this way".

what

Or are you saying that it's more okay to discriminate against, say, emos because they chose to be the way they are? Like the metalheads, punk and skinheads described in the article are doing.

Maybe we could just live in a world where the rules are you are not allowed to act like a violent fuckwit towards anybody!

And I just wonder why those of you who are so determined to hold onto the term "Skin" as meaning a positive or at least neutral thing, when it the majority of the population believe otherwise. Emo didn't used to mean "whiny douchebags with shit music" but now it does because the world is bigger than your scene, and people are not under any obligation to maintain the meanings of the words you coin once they are in their vocabulary.

[MadassAlex]

The terminology is really the least pressing matter here.

[a pack of wolves]

And I just wonder why those of you who are so determined to hold onto the term "Skin" as meaning a positive or at least neutral thing, when it the majority of the population believe otherwise. Emo didn't used to mean "whiny douchebags with shit music" but now it does because the world is bigger than your scene, and people are not under any obligation to maintain the meanings of the words you coin once they are in their vocabulary.

But why is it necessary to then admit the validity and dominance of the new interpretation of a word? Ten years ago nobody knew what the hell emo meant outside of the punk underground and the same is true now, the only difference being that the word's being used to describe something else too so using it to describe something to anyone unfamiliar with that subculture is just as pointless as it always was. The reason people keep using it, and why they keep using words like skinhead, straight edge, hardcore, black metal and many others that have had serious negative connotations in the popular consciousness is pretty simple I think. What the hell else do you call it? If people flee from a term as soon as it starts to become associated with something negative in the minds of some people then none of the music scenes that I hold dear would have got anywhere. The community and the sharing of artistic and other ideas that goes along with that would have been sacrificed with little gain, and if that's not to happen then you need to be able to say 'actually, you're wrong' when someone has a misconception about a subculture even if it is widely held.

[idiolect]

I'm just going to say one more thing, because I really think it emphasizes what I think is the key point in pretty much all of the issues being argued about now, and I'm frankly annoyed that I didn't get a straight answer to this the first time I asked it.  After this, though, I'm out, because if you don't get this point then there's really no way we can even have an intelligible conversation:

"I've seen a bunch of dumb black kids who dress a certain way and shoot each other and deal drugs.  I guess all black kids who dress that way shoot each other and deal drugs."

"I've seen a bunch of dumb black kids who dress a certain way and shoot each other and deal drugs.  They say they are gangsters, so I guess gangsters are dumb black kids who dress a certain way and shoot each other and deal drugs."  You don't see the difference between that statement and what you said above?

Do you really, really not see the difference inherent in those two statements?  Really?

[Jackie Blue]

That was already answered:

It's simple. Saying, "These people are this way" is the same as saying "These people are this way". No matter how you slice it, it's highly discriminatory and feeds stereotypes. No matter who it applies to, race, religion, nationality, subculture, it is just as dangerous and, in my opinion, morally questionable.

[Ocarina654]

Bringing race into this argument is absolutely ridiculous.

How does the difference between choosing to be a skinhead and just being black make discrimination against them any less questionable? Or are you saying that it's more okay to discriminate against, say, emos because they chose to be the way they are? Like the metalheads, punk and skinheads described in the article are doing.

If you actually read my post you'd realize that I said its not okay to discriminate against anyone.  I just said that you have to realize when you make a choice to be a part of an cultural affiliation that people react to it in different ways.

However, I still stand by my statement, that bringing race into this argument is ridiculous, and perhaps a better term would have been pointless.
Then again this whole argument has pretty much become pointless.

Skinheads aren't racists by definition, despite the commonly held belief!
Violence against emos or anyone else is bad!
Discrimination is discrimination!
Topic of discussion over!

[MadassAlex]

Thank goodness!

[imagist42]

But what about ... ?

[MadassAlex]

... stem cell research?

[imagist42]

No, gay marriage and abortion.

[valley_parade]

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2008/04/01/5160046-sun.html

Any better or worse than said situation in Mexico? I think not.

[MadassAlex]

No, gay marriage and abortion.

Gay Marriage is one of my favourite new bands, but they are not as good as Brain Mist.

[jimbunny]

yay, semantics

[MadassAlex]

You could be a post hardcore guy in a sombrero and that might even be a good idea.

I guess emos can technically wear sombreros. But they would go way better with hipsters desperately trying to be cool.

[karl gambolputty...]

Sombreros are the new trucker hats.   Ponchos are the new gas-station-attendant-shirts.

[KharBevNor]

I guess emos can technically wear sombreros. But they would go way better with hipsters desperately trying to be cool.

"How can I possibly buy a hat that doesn't suit me? My hair is practically a hat. All hats suit me."

[imagist42]

just paint it black

paint it all black

[MadassAlex]

"How can I possibly buy a hat that doesn't suit me? My hair is practically a hat. All hats suit me."

Why does everyone like Vince, he is such a dick.


I like Vince.

[KharBevNor]

It's because he has normal size eyes.