Topic: WHAT THE HELL PEOPLE (Read 51732 times)

karl gambolputty... · « **Reply #50 on:** 27 Mar 2008, 21:44 »

Quote from: idiolect on 27 Mar 2008, 20:26

Quote from: karl gambolputty... on 27 Mar 2008, 19:25

Those two sentences don't really go too well together. If a gang of violent jackasses go out and beat the shit out of members of a different subculture who are for all intents and purposes defenseless, at least in the sense that they 'have no idea they're in a gang', because they 'dislike their look and attitude', then yeah, the second group are kind of special, ya?

Not if the attackers do that and have been doing that for decades to a variety of similarly unsuspecting subcultures.

I understand your general point, but you then may as well just say "People have been dicks to each other for as long as there have been people, so any kind of violent crime is nothing new".

At this time, right now, a bunch of assholes are assaulting a bunch of kids for looking 'emo', and that's a specific sociological (is that the right word?) problem that, at this time, should be addressed.

MusicScribbles · « **Reply #51 on:** 27 Mar 2008, 23:06 »

Quote from: dalconnsuch on 27 Mar 2008, 20:44

*beats the crap out of an emo kid*

what?

To quote the thread title, "WHAT THE HELL PEOPLE".

E. Spaceman · « **Reply #52 on:** 27 Mar 2008, 23:19 »

Ah yes, this is a topic that makes me very embarassed, as a mexican. Specially because a lot of the attacks are mostly homophobic in nature. Thankfully, the city's mayor figure has issued specific orders for the police to safeguard Emo Kids' safety. Surreal times we live in, really. Every day on the subway i see a number of these kids and they seem to take shit from a huge number of people. Although i agree that the fashion is ghastly, the music terrible and most of the kids kinda annoying, there is really no reasn for abuse.

Anyway, as to the less amusing parts of this thread, zerodrone, when someone acts like a complete and utter douchebag, trying to one up them, even sarcastically often yields less that excellent results. New guy, stop acting like a complete and utter douchebag or go act like one elsewhere.

Caspian · « **Reply #53 on:** 28 Mar 2008, 00:04 »

Removed for epic PC justice.

E. Spaceman · « **Reply #54 on:** 28 Mar 2008, 00:18 »

Caspian, with the interest of remaining on the board, would you care to revise your post?

Caspian · « **Reply #55 on:** 28 Mar 2008, 00:21 »

perhaps a [/sarcasm] modifier would've been in order. It certainly wasn't a serious comment, anyway.

E. Spaceman · « **Reply #56 on:** 28 Mar 2008, 00:23 »

No, not really.

imagist42 · « **Reply #57 on:** 28 Mar 2008, 00:24 »

Guys, Okkervil River makes fantastic albums.

Coreh · « **Reply #58 on:** 28 Mar 2008, 00:27 »

It seems to me like this thread is chock full of examples of how not to behave online.
This is a serious subject guys, no matter how you feel about the culture, or the people, this is still wrong.
And there are very few circumstances in which completely derailing a thread is cool or funny.
Zerodrone and UltraViolence, you've proved no points in your petty arguing with one another, other than the fact that you are both kind of douches.

And people people please remember, sarcasm is very hard to pick up on the internet sometimes.
Now, let's please be civil and remain on topic and friendly.

The fact that these attacks are happening is sickening. Nobody deserves to get beaten or killed simply because of their appearance.

Caspian · « **Reply #59 on:** 28 Mar 2008, 00:29 »

Quote from: Coreh on 28 Mar 2008, 00:27

It seems to me like this thread is chock full of examples of how not to behave online.
This is a serious subject guys, no matter how you feel about the culture, or the people, this is still wrong.
And there are very few circumstances in which completely derailing a thread is cool or funny.
Zerodrone and UltraViolence, you've proved no points in your petty arguing with one another, other than the fact that you are both kind of douches.

And people people please remember, sarcasm is very hard to pick up on the internet sometimes.
Now, let's please be civil and remain on topic and friendly.

The fact that these attacks are happening is sickening. Nobody deserves to get beaten or killed simply because of their appearance.

emo fag.

[/sarcasm and/or irony]

E. Spaceman · « **Reply #60 on:** 28 Mar 2008, 00:34 »

David_Dovey · « **Reply #61 on:** 28 Mar 2008, 00:55 »

COREH,

You're almost doing it right enough to make up for the other people in this thread. Almost.

idiolect · « **Reply #62 on:** 28 Mar 2008, 01:55 »

Picard FTW.

Quote from: karl gambolputty... on 27 Mar 2008, 21:44

I understand your general point, but you then may as well just say "People have been dicks to each other for as long as there have been people, so any kind of violent crime is nothing new".

At this time, right now, a bunch of assholes are assaulting a bunch of kids for looking 'emo', and that's a specific sociological (is that the right word?) problem that, at this time, should be addressed.

Fair enough. I guess I was just detecting a hint of especially-special-emo-kid-self-pity stuff in the OP, as if no one but emo kids have ever been beaten up due to a subcultural affiliation (or even mistakes "subcultural affiliation" for mere "taste in music," which are totally different kinds of things), which reframes the problem as "People are mean to emo kids and shouldn't be!" when it ought to be "Skinheads are dicks."

Jackie Blue · « **Reply #63 on:** 28 Mar 2008, 03:30 »

Quote from: E. Spaceman on 27 Mar 2008, 23:19

Anyway, as to the less amusing parts of this thread, zerodrone, when someone acts like a complete and utter douchebag, trying to one up them, even sarcastically often yields less that excellent results.

I know, I know. Sometimes I just snap. Especially when someone makes jokes about something that is pretty horrible in nature.

Jackie Blue · « **Reply #64 on:** 28 Mar 2008, 03:53 »

I concur.

valley_parade · « **Reply #65 on:** 28 Mar 2008, 05:20 »

Man I was really hoping that was just Patrick douching around on a fake account.

Ultra Violence · « **Reply #66 on:** 28 Mar 2008, 06:57 »

Quote from: Coreh on 28 Mar 2008, 00:27

Zerodrone and UltraViolence, you've proved no points in your petty arguing with one another, other than the fact that you are both kind of douches.

Explain to me the two different types of douche.

Quote from: Coreh on 28 Mar 2008, 00:27

The fact that these attacks are happening is sickening. Nobody deserves to get beaten or killed simply because of their appearance.

I concur.

Yet, it is their choice to appear in such a way.

It's not as though it's racism. (Attacking [by any means] a person becuase of the way they were born).

People should stand up for themselves.

Although it is the attackers fault in the end, I would say it is lack of things to do so they let loose in other ways. Sometimes stupid ways.

I'm just trying to put up both sides of the arguements.

Dispite my first post in this thread, I say this attitude is sickening.

Quote from: tommydski on 28 Mar 2008, 03:52

Let's just use this thread as an example which we can refer to in the future.
From now on, let's completely ignore stupidly obvious trolls. Don't quote their posts, just straight up act as if they haven't posted anything. These cretins want attention and from now on we're not going to give it to them. Simple but effective!

Jesus. - Do you think people will just do what you say like some kind of lick-ass?

Quote from: zerodrone on 28 Mar 2008, 03:53

I concur.

Wait what...

Quote from: valley_parade on 28 Mar 2008, 05:20

Man I was really hoping that was just Patrick douching around on a fake account.

Patrick Starfish?

lol@yourface · « **Reply #67 on:** 28 Mar 2008, 07:25 »

Ignoring the above post.
Me and my friends have had to endure things a bit like this, not quite to these extremes though. The most we have had happen was one us getting knocked out by a thrown rock and the other being punched in the face various times. "The only reason we were given for this happening was we look weird and wear stupid clothes". It's sickening.

KharBevNor · « **Reply #68 on:** 28 Mar 2008, 07:53 »

You guys need to read this blog:

http://alterophobia.blogspot.com/

People from subcultures are being assaulted, beaten, hounded, victimised, abused and even killed all over the world. Sophie wasn't the first, and I have a horrible fear she won't be the last.

Ultra Violence · « **Reply #69 on:** 28 Mar 2008, 08:23 »

Quote from: lol@yourface on 28 Mar 2008, 07:25

Ignoring the above post.

Rancid stench of fail.

Quote from: KharBevNor on 28 Mar 2008, 07:53

You guys need to read this blog:
http://alterophobia.blogspot.com/
People from subcultures are being assaulted, beaten, hounded, victimised, abused and even killed all over the world. Sophie wasn't the first, and I have a horrible fear she won't be the last.

Of course they are they always have been.

While racism has been taken into account when it comes to the law these type of actions aren't being dealt with on a large scale.

imapiratearg · « **Reply #70 on:** 28 Mar 2008, 08:31 »

What is the "emo" attitude anyway? I'm being serious, here, too. I'm not talking about the "OMG GURLZ SUK" stereotyped "emo kids." I mean like, the attitude of the movement itself. All the way through. Starting with Rites of Spring and the like.

KharBevNor · « **Reply #71 on:** 28 Mar 2008, 09:23 »

There is no cohesive 'emo movement' that starts with Rites of Spring and goes through.

imapiratearg · « **Reply #72 on:** 28 Mar 2008, 09:27 »

Yeah, you're right. Still, what is this attitude they're talking about?

Daft pun · « **Reply #73 on:** 28 Mar 2008, 09:48 »

Why do I feel the sudden urge to type "Amen" after that?

valley_parade · « **Reply #74 on:** 28 Mar 2008, 09:58 »

Because Tommy is internets famous and has somehow reached demi-god status.

imagist42 · « **Reply #75 on:** 28 Mar 2008, 10:05 »

And, of course, we all do whatever he wants us to.

Amen.

valley_parade · « **Reply #76 on:** 28 Mar 2008, 10:05 »

Well, not all of us. In addition to being atheist for realsies, I'm also internet atheist.

GOOD POST THOUGH, OLD CHAP.

KharBevNor · « **Reply #77 on:** 28 Mar 2008, 10:36 »

So who's behind the idea that crimes committed because of the way someone dresses should be treated in the same way as crimes committed because of skin colour or sexuality, ie they should be considered 'hate crimes' and carry stiffer penalties?

This wouldn't just apply to subcultures of course. I would also like to see such things bought in for football hooligans who attack people just because of the team shirt they're wearing.

valley_parade · « **Reply #78 on:** 28 Mar 2008, 10:45 »

Sounds fair.

michaelicious · « **Reply #79 on:** 28 Mar 2008, 10:46 »

Quote from: tommydski on 28 Mar 2008, 09:39

It's worth noting that every single one of these first wave 'Emo' bands absolutely detested the phrase.

Emo Phillips?

Jackie Blue · « **Reply #80 on:** 28 Mar 2008, 11:13 »

I don't like the idea of "hate crime". I've yet to hear a compelling argument as to why killing someone for being black is worse than killing them for sleeping with your wife.

NB: I can get behind the idea for having stiffer sentences for everyone who hurts someone else. A psychotic asshole is a psychotic asshole, regardless of their reasoning.

KharBevNor · « **Reply #81 on:** 28 Mar 2008, 11:33 »

You can't see any difference between someone assaulting/killing someone who has directly aggrieved them, and someone assaulting/killing someone completely at random based on some arbitrary factor of their appearance or character?

Right.

Look at it from the societal view, if you must. If you kill people because they are black, then you are far more a danger to society than if you kill people for sleeping with your wife, because, lets face it, that's probably not going to be a problem anymore after the first conviction.

Katherine · « **Reply #82 on:** 28 Mar 2008, 11:34 »

I think perhaps the reasoning behind killing someone for being different is worse than killing them for sleeping with your wife is the randomness of the killing someone for being different. I am not saying that you are asking for a killin' by sleeping with someone's wife, but that is a preventable situation whereas people cannot control their sexual preference, skin color, etc.

Also, killing someone for sleeping with your wife is a very specific murder while if you kill someone for being different... well what are the odds of someone else sleeping with your wife as opposed to the odds of you coming across someone who is different than you? I am definitely not condoning murder here but killing someone in a murderous rage is a whole different story than wanting to kill a lot of people because you don't like who they sleep with/how they dress/their skin color/etc.

KharBevNor said what I was trying to say here in a lot fewer words but I spent a lot of time typing this damnit, so I am still posting it!

idiolect · « **Reply #83 on:** 28 Mar 2008, 13:43 »

Yeah, it's the way in which the murder of the one person transfers as a threat against all the rest. To kill someone for a personal reason that only applies to them stays limited to that case, but to kill someone of a certain group simply because they are of that group, I'd argue, is a symbolic act which is at least tantamount to making death threats against every other member of that group.

Jackie Blue · « **Reply #84 on:** 28 Mar 2008, 15:16 »

Quote from: KharBevNor on 28 Mar 2008, 11:33

You can't see any difference between someone assaulting/killing someone who has directly aggrieved them, and someone assaulting/killing someone completely at random based on some arbitrary factor of their appearance or character?

No, I see the difference, I just believe in punishing people for what they do, not why they did it.

What about serial killers? Those are usually more random than "hate crimes" yet I don't see any push for national legislation to enact specific "serial killer crime laws".

And before people get all up in my business like I'm saying that someone who kills a queer for Christ shouldn't be strapped down and disemboweled, let me again re-iterate that I think we need stronger punishments across the board for all violent crime, not just "hate crime". For example, I'd be all in favour of the death penalty for any and all murder excluding self-defense, and for that matter, for rapists too. People who commit sexual acts with children under the age of, oh, 14? Put them in a mental institution for a long, long time. Etc.

Thrillho · « **Reply #85 on:** 28 Mar 2008, 15:34 »

Except there's always going to be a few people who are sent wrongly to their deaths.

The worst thing about this thread is that I'm not the least bit surprised by any of the crimes listed.

KharBevNor · « **Reply #86 on:** 28 Mar 2008, 15:37 »

Quote from: zerodrone on 28 Mar 2008, 15:16

What about serial killers? Those are usually more random than "hate crimes" yet I don't see any push for national legislation to enact specific "serial killer crime laws"

Serial killers, in this country anyway, are treated far more harshly than 'normal' murderers. They normally get special injunctions which basically 'throw away the key'.

The Death Penalty is always a bad idea.

Jackie Blue · « **Reply #87 on:** 28 Mar 2008, 15:38 »

Quote from: DynamiteKid on 28 Mar 2008, 15:34

Except there's always going to be a few people who are sent wrongly to their deaths.

Society will never be perfect.

Thrillho · « **Reply #88 on:** 28 Mar 2008, 16:05 »

And nor will the judicial system, in any country, which is why I will always oppose the death penalty.

a pack of wolves · « **Reply #89 on:** 28 Mar 2008, 18:29 »

Quote from: tommydski on 28 Mar 2008, 09:39

Bands that were influenced by these original groups operated throughout the 90s and for whatever reason they also became known as 'Emo' or 'Emocore'. Once again, practically all of these bands absolutely hated this description. Without exception in fact. Nobody has ever set out to be an 'Emo' band, it's essentially a construct of the media and fans of such bands looking for a broad term to make the music easier to discuss.

That's not true. React With Protest records has used the slogan 'keeping the emo violent' on a number of occasions, Kids Return refer to themselves as an emo band, so have plenty of others over the years. I was just thinking the other day that I'd really like to be in an emo band again. It's not something every band has hated, I've always thought that it was a pretty useful description myself.

KvP · « **Reply #90 on:** 28 Mar 2008, 19:12 »

I don't know if it's been pointed out just yet, but music doesn't really have anything to do with this. It has everything to do with men dressing effeminately. Saying these kids are being beaten up for being "different" or "alternative" is something of an understatement. Having odd taste in high school wasn't much of a problem compared to odd taste made you look gay. Add to that the fact that most of these kids are from a comfortable middle-class background and you see how much potential for trouble there is. It's not just jocks beating up these kids, it's metalheads and cholos and all kinds. It's not unfair to say that all the shit about music and culture are a smokescreen for a conservative reaction to a perceived homosexual element.

imagist42 · « **Reply #91 on:** 28 Mar 2008, 19:23 »

And that makes it better or worse... how? Or are you just arguing semantics, now?

KvP · « **Reply #92 on:** 28 Mar 2008, 19:30 »

Uh, I'd say that homophobia is a more insidious sentiment than intense hatred of a musical genre, yes. Some people are going to write this off as insignificant (some already have), which is pretty dumb in any case, but it's harder to dismiss someone being beaten up because they look gay than because they like popular music. More people seem to think that bad taste ought to be beaten out of someone than gayness.

I don't see why there's any potential for argument at all. This kind of thing should obviously not happen.

jimbunny · « **Reply #93 on:** 28 Mar 2008, 19:42 »

Quote

More people seem to think that bad taste ought to be beaten out of someone than gayness.

I'd question this statement, at least at the level of serious violence. Which is why I agree with you that this all has deeper roots than just musical taste. Lashing out violently on a large scale, based solely on what is coming through your headphones, is rather absurd. Musical taste, on the other hand, will often be perceived as a signifier for much deeper societal tendencies. They're not beating up emo kids because they think emo kids are homosexual; the emo kids, however, represent a movement that might call into question the standards of sexuality (and its expression) which they have held as bedrock truth for so very long. It's analogous to the WBC picketing military funerals, except at an even less rational level.

imapiratearg · « **Reply #94 on:** 28 Mar 2008, 20:05 »

Quote from: Kid van Pervert on 28 Mar 2008, 19:12

It has everything to do with men dressing effeminately.

Dude, punk rock was pretty damn homoerotic, back in the day. I mean, look at Iggy Pop for example. His junk was possibly hanging out on stage if you went to see him. Agnostic Front was a bunch of shirtless dudes on stage hugging and groping one another. The Ramones wore skin-tight pants. The New York Dolls?

(Or are the New York Dolls rockabilly?)

David_Dovey · « **Reply #95 on:** 28 Mar 2008, 20:48 »

What's your point? Punks of all kinds, effeminate or not, would quite commonly run into trouble in the form of physical violence and general hatred directed at them all the time back when punk was still perceived as a dangerous outsider mindset.

imapiratearg · « **Reply #96 on:** 28 Mar 2008, 20:57 »

My point is that he isn't entirely correct in saying that homophobia is the direct cause of the violence against "emo kids," because at least 1/3 of the groups doing the attacking had a fairly homosexual element to them.

David_Dovey · « **Reply #97 on:** 28 Mar 2008, 21:00 »

Quote from: imapiratearg on 28 Mar 2008, 20:57

My point is that he isn't entirely correct in saying that homophobia is the direct cause of the violence against "emo kids," because at least 1/3 of the groups doing the attacking had a fairly homosexual element to them.

Yes but arguing that the types of skinheads who are bashing up scenester kids have anything to do with the original spirit and mindset of 1977 punk rock is about as logical as trying to find a link between the beliefs of the Westboro Baptist Church with mainstream Christianity.

The link is existent, but so tenuous as to be negligible.

imapiratearg · « **Reply #98 on:** 28 Mar 2008, 21:09 »

I didn't, did I? I may not have mentioned skinheads, but I wasn't lumping them together with punks. I was trying to disprove homophobia as the direct cause of the violence. It may be a factor, but I just didn't find it logical that punks were beating up "emo kids" for dressing and looking effeminate.

dalconnsuch · « **Reply #99 on:** 28 Mar 2008, 21:36 »

hell i just beat up emo kids for being in a scene derived completely amongst negative feelings

i also chant the ramones "beat on the emo little pussy bitch brat" while i beat them

to me it has nothing to do with homophobia, it has everything to do witht he fact the whole scene makes me sick to my stomach

THESE FORUMS NOW CLOSED (read only)

Author Topic: WHAT THE HELL PEOPLE (Read 51732 times)

idiolect

Ultra Violence

lol@yourface

Ultra Violence

idiolect

dalconnsuch