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Poll

Marten or Dora?

Marten
- 4 (10.5%)
Dora
- 34 (89.5%)

Total Members Voted: 22


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Author Topic: who's in the wrong?  (Read 9989 times)

MC

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who's in the wrong?
« on: 23 Mar 2008, 09:10 »

Steve claims that it's Marten's fault that him and Dora are fighting because he called her up on her bitchery..... I personally think this is BS and is anyone needs to reconcile and come back with their tail between their legs it's Dora.... but what do you guys think?
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Blackcat Moebius

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Re: who's in the wrong?
« Reply #1 on: 23 Mar 2008, 09:19 »

The poll needs a 'both' option.

Dora went beyond unreasonable and well into paranoid.
Marten's nigh-legendary patience picked the wrong time to run out.
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misterknite

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Re: who's in the wrong?
« Reply #2 on: 23 Mar 2008, 18:13 »

Dude no offense, but that makes no sense. How are they equally at fault when she is being completely unreasonable and he simply isn't as patient as he usually is? And if you're not saying they were equally at fault then you aren't saying there should be a "both" option. But yeah... no offense.

I sort of see what Steve is saying, about girl logic and all, but ultimately it wasn't a fight until Dora flipped out and started acting like a 2 year old. I think that pretty well sums it up. People can disagree and argue without it being a fight, it's ugly ureasonable behaviour that makes it into a fight.
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Is it cold in here?

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Re: who's in the wrong?
« Reply #3 on: 23 Mar 2008, 22:25 »

If you approach fights in a relationship in terms of who is right, the relationship will never work as well as you'd want.
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bunnyThor

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I CAN HAS LOGICS?
« Reply #4 on: 23 Mar 2008, 23:38 »

Dude no offense, but that makes no sense. How are they equally at fault when she is being completely unreasonable and he simply isn't as patient as he usually is? And if you're not saying they were equally at fault then you aren't saying there should be a "both" option. But yeah... no offense.

So If I steal 7 cars and you steal 4 cars, we can't *both* be car thieves because we didn't steal an equal number of cars?
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paladin_revenant

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Re: who's in the wrong?
« Reply #5 on: 24 Mar 2008, 05:39 »

In my opinion Dora is definitely wrong for automatically assuming that Faye was intending to be hurtful.  Faye has been an ornery bitch in the past, but she's never (at least in the context of the comic) been outright spiteful.  Dora is still feeling bad about hooking up with Marten so fast and is still thinking that Faye is angry about it.  Seen from the point of view that Faye is angry or upset about Marten and Dora getting together, there is a small amount of logic in concluding that Faye's actions were intended to sting... Dora is simply wrong about this.

Marten is wrong for, as Steve put it "belittlin' her anger".  Dora still feels bad about hurting Faye by hooking up with Marten so fast, and she's trying to invent a situation where Faye is punishing her for that because Dora feels that she deserves it.  By telling Dora that she is being irrational, Marten is destroying the fantasy that Dora has invented to punish herself.  This puts Dora back in the position of feeling guilty about what she did to Faye and not being able to resolve it.  So Marten is being insensitive and treating his girlfriend kinda poorly, but it still comes around to Dora's insecurities.  Life isn't about what happens to you, it's about how you react to what happens to you.

I'm reminded of a book I read in which a man believes that he has sinned, so he confesses to a priest.  The priest hears the man's confession and the circumstances surrounding the event.  The priest determines that the man has not sinned, but knows that the man would never feel justified if the priest told him that he had not sinned or that he was forgiven.  Realizing this, the priest assigns the man penance, not because he deserves it, but because it is the only way in which the man will ever feel better about what he has done.

This is relevant because Dora feels she has trespassed against Faye.  Faye has forgiven her, but Dora is still seeking punishment.

And that is my long-winded opinion.
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Border Reiver

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Re: who's in the wrong?
« Reply #6 on: 24 Mar 2008, 07:22 »

Neither is wrong, nor is are either of them right. 

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kasuturo

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Re: who's in the wrong?
« Reply #7 on: 24 Mar 2008, 07:42 »

Of course, none of them is right because none of them knows Faye's final truth (didn't they see that coming provided she's been drunk and kinda hot a looot of times?). Yeah, we know it and we know that it'd be Dora's fault for not being confident of her relationship with Marten for a long time (because, if you remember, since they started going out she's all been "is this right for Faye and Marten? will she take him away from me?" with herself, and this is not the first time she has a discussion with Marten about it).

I think Marten's attitude was right, anyway. He's held a lot of jealous crap from Dora up to now. So, it'd be like "Marten is 30% wrong and Dora is 70% wrong" for me, at least.
« Last Edit: 24 Mar 2008, 08:12 by kasuturo »
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AngelofShadows

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Re: who's in the wrong?
« Reply #8 on: 24 Mar 2008, 09:30 »

A both option would be my choice.

Dora is wrong for being angry and paranoid over nothing

Martin is wrong for deciding to get drunk instead of waiting and going to talk things out. As far as belittling her anger, well, I think that's a load of bullshit. If Martin went along with it, then he would be in a double world of shit later. Dora will realize she's being insane, and if Martin agrees, or acts like he's agreeing, then not only is he going to get it from Dora for letting her think she's right when she wasn't (which is crazy, but as far as I can tell some sort of girl rule, as in, they can change the rules whenever the fuck they want) and Faye, or everyone, for being so pussy-whipped. He was right to stand up to her, cause it will, hopefully, make her realize the folly of her actions sooner. But getting drunk and bitching about it is bad, as what hanners said.

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Re: who's in the wrong?
« Reply #9 on: 24 Mar 2008, 21:56 »

wow, talk about people invalidating Dora's insecurities. iirc, marten is quite an insecure chap himself, but that's totally ok?
neither of them had taken the time to sort this thing out, and a balls out fight just might be what's needed.
If you approach fights in a relationship in terms of who is right, the relationship will never work as well as you'd want.
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Theron

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Re: who's in the wrong?
« Reply #10 on: 25 Mar 2008, 06:21 »

Dora is wrong for, as paladin_revenant said, assuming that Faye was trying to hurt Marten.  She's also wrong for invalidating Marten's feelings on the matter.  Marten's not upset, and she's telling him he's wrong for that.  Then she's wrong for mocking Marten, though she has some provocation to work with there, since Marten was sarcastic about her feelings.

Marten is wrong for responding sarcastically to Dora's reaction, and for invalidating her feelings.  He has some provocation from the start, since Dora's being irrationally nasty towards a friend of theirs.

Steve's thing bugs me.  We've descended into the trope where men are always wrong in relationship conflicts.  Marten comes down from his anger, not into a space where he can consider things calmly, but a panic state where he realizes he forgot about
the rules
.

Specifically:
#5: The female is never wrong.
#6: If the female is wrong, it is due to a misunderstanding which was a result of something the male did or said wrong.
#7: The male must apologize immediately for causing said misunderstanding.
#11: The male must remain calm at all times unless the female wants him to be angry or upset.

Not that I believe that women actually always behave this way in reality, or would seriously advocate these positions, but they represent stereotypical behaviors that are often used for comedic effect in pop-fiction.  I'm a little disappointed in Marten's lack of spine.  He's gone into abject apology "are... are you still mad at me?" mode about a situation not of his making, where the ultimate resolution has to come from Dora getting over her issue with Faye, not Marten making things right by prostrating himself.
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Re: who's in the wrong?
« Reply #11 on: 25 Mar 2008, 07:12 »

If you approach fights in a relationship in terms of who is right, the relationship will never work as well as you'd want.

This

/The only winner is the person who apologizes first.  Guilty, non-guilty, doesn't matter in a relationship fight.  As soon as one apologizes the other one does too and everyone forgets about it.
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CycloneChibi

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Re: who's in the wrong?
« Reply #12 on: 25 Mar 2008, 15:13 »

This isn't the first time Marten has tried and failed at Self-righteous Asshole Fu.  I'm a woman, and I believe that Marten had every right in the world to react the way he did. 

Dora has already subjected Marten to several aspects of her character flaws (flipping out about his haircut, getting pissed about his completely-understandable feelings for his ex-girlfriend), and this one is the worst.  She used anger and distrust instead of trying to open up and understand Faye's feelings. 

Dora has been quick to bring other's flaws to attention (Marten's lack of confidence and ambition, Faye's alcohol problem, Sven's womanizing, etc), but no one has ever given Dora the straight dope about her own insecurities and attitude.  This would be a prime opportunity for someone (like Marten) to tell her that her jealously and insecurity in relationships is going to drive them apart.

Up until this story arc, Faye had always been the one "with issues" who often belittled others' feelings and avoided her problems with herself.  Dora was the more calm, rational one how never took anything too seriously.  Now, the tables have turned and Faye is being the adult.  She's gone to therapy, faced her fears, and owned up to her night with Sven even though she knew it would be trouble.

I think Faye and Marten need to talk before Dora and Marten do.  I used to be a fan of Dora/Marten, but now I'm rooting for Faye/Marten.
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Uber Ritter

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Re: who's in the wrong?
« Reply #13 on: 26 Mar 2008, 05:54 »

Man, rooting for Faye/Marten because Dora's insecure is like rooting for the Yankees because you think the Redsocks win too much.
I'd say both/neither.  Marten didn't really respond very productively, though what he said was quite right.  Dora was being irrational.  Whatever.
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CycloneChibi

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Re: who's in the wrong?
« Reply #14 on: 26 Mar 2008, 19:11 »

You're right.  I just think Marten is letting Dora walk all over him.  I mean...sibling rivalry?  Most people get over that stuff in high school.  And feeling inferior compared to your brother is a crappy excuse for attacking your best friend and your boyfriend.  Just saying.
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Surgoshan

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Re: who's in the wrong?
« Reply #15 on: 26 Mar 2008, 19:14 »

Actually, I would expect more people to get over the sibling thing after high school.  College like.  Especially when it's something like Dora's situation where her brother was popular and she was dealing with his leftovers.  However, after she went to college she shoulda gotten over it.
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AngelofShadows

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Re: who's in the wrong?
« Reply #16 on: 26 Mar 2008, 21:54 »

I was gonna rant about how Dora should've gotten over this by now, but it makes sense that it's the cause of her insecurities. Past experiances tell her that people use her to get to, or over, other people. Those thoughts are kinda hard to shake off, even if they aren't founded in any real sort of logic.
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angelpants

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Re: who's in the wrong?
« Reply #17 on: 27 Mar 2008, 17:06 »

I like Dora but she is being slightly pussymonish in this. I am on her side though, everyone freaks out sometimes. Why a constant need for rationality? Marten should understand.

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Ultra Violence

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Re: who's in the wrong?
« Reply #18 on: 27 Mar 2008, 17:16 »

Dora is in the wrong.

D'ya know why?

Becuase she's a woman.

Just kidding. She's in the kitchen in this one so everything is just ace.
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angelpants

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Re: who's in the wrong?
« Reply #19 on: 27 Mar 2008, 17:19 »

Dora is in the wrong.

D'ya know why?

Becuase she's a woman.

Just kidding. She's in the kitchen in this one so everything is just ace.

Oh right yeah, the kitchen. Where women belong right?!

Twat.
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Ultra Violence

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Re: who's in the wrong?
« Reply #20 on: 27 Mar 2008, 17:24 »

Dora is in the wrong.
D'ya know why?
Becuase she's a woman.
Just kidding. She's in the kitchen in this one so everything is just ace.
Oh right yeah, the kitchen. Where women belong right?!
Twat.
Sure if you think so.

Personally I don't like to enforce such stereotypes.

I guess if that's the way you've been brought up.

I will respect your point of view.

You'd better be posting from a kitchen.
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angelpants

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Re: who's in the wrong?
« Reply #21 on: 27 Mar 2008, 17:33 »



Oh, the word "respect" features in your vocabulary?

Little chance of any sane female in the kitchen for the likes of you.... :wink:
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Ultra Violence

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Re: who's in the wrong?
« Reply #22 on: 27 Mar 2008, 17:34 »

Oh, the word "respect" features in your vocabulary?

Little chance of any sane female in the kitchen for the likes of you.... :wink:
That's not even funny.

My brother died like that.

Sigh EDIT: Not any more it doesn't -10 respect.

Why would I want a female in the kitchen.

As I have previously stated, this is your frame of mind not mine.

STEREOTYPE ENFORCING FEMINAZI.
« Last Edit: 27 Mar 2008, 17:38 by Ultra Violence »
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bunnyThor

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Re: who's in the wrong?
« Reply #23 on: 28 Mar 2008, 10:41 »

Dora is in the wrong.
D'ya know why?
Becuase she's a woman.
Just kidding. She's in the kitchen in this one so everything is just ace.
Oh right yeah, the kitchen. Where women belong right?!
Twat.
Sure if you think so.

Personally I don't like to enforce such stereotypes.

I guess if that's the way you've been brought up.

I will respect your point of view.
You'd better be posting from a kitchen.

You know, we can read your little tiny comments...moron.  :x
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Clobbersaurus

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Re: who's in the wrong?
« Reply #24 on: 28 Mar 2008, 21:47 »

why do trolls think they're the cleverest people ever?

anyhooters:

so dora displayed her insecurities. big whoop. no one is insecurity free until they're old and senile and have their own motorized scooter.
...because at that point, you just don't give a fuck.
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ChristineIsAMormon

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Re: who's in the wrong?
« Reply #25 on: 29 Mar 2008, 20:15 »

Dora is in the wrong.

D'ya know why?

Becuase she's a woman.

Just kidding. She's in the kitchen in this one so everything is just ace.

I personally laughed out loud at this. :P
Nothing wrong with wry humor.
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Re: I CAN HAS LOGICS?
« Reply #26 on: 30 Mar 2008, 00:40 »

Dude no offense, but that makes no sense. How are they equally at fault when she is being completely unreasonable and he simply isn't as patient as he usually is? And if you're not saying they were equally at fault then you aren't saying there should be a "both" option. But yeah... no offense.

So If I steal 7 cars and you steal 4 cars, we can't *both* be car thieves because we didn't steal an equal number of cars?

Bad analogy. It should have been if you steal 7 cars and I call you out on stealing cars, are we both car thieves?
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bunnyThor

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Re: I CAN HAS LOGICS?
« Reply #27 on: 31 Mar 2008, 18:20 »

So If I steal 7 cars and you steal 4 cars, we can't *both* be car thieves because we didn't steal an equal number of cars?

Bad analogy. It should have been if you steal 7 cars and I call you out on stealing cars, are we both car thieves?

No, good analogy. The original poster was saying that since Dora was more wrong than Marten, they couldn't both be wrong. Since Marten did not handle the situation completely right (and therefore, was partially wrong), the point stands.
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