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[Caspian]

..I was talking about this with a friend of mine today, and we couldn't really think up a good reason- Admittedly the 80% figure was an arbitrary number i made up just then. While  for certain more testosterone orientated genres (metal obviously being the main example) perhaps the answer is fairly obvious, there's still a huge difference in, well, every other genre you care to name, whether we're talking twee or shoegaze. Sure, you'll often see one or two girls in a band, but it's very rare that you'll see any more then that, or that you'll see a band where the majority are female. Typically it's all a bunch of dudes, and overall it's quite strange.

Anyway, I basically have no real idea as to why this is the case, but it seems to be to the case nonetheless. I'm sure one could argue some sort of feminist point, but that stopped being valid 30 or so years ago. Perhaps things like smaller build is a bit of a disadvantage- big hands are recommended if you want to 'shred it up', and perhaps doing heaps of super fast double kick is something more suited to dudes- but I don't really think that's the case either, and if so it's limited to a niche metal genre. If anyone has any particularly good theory as to why on earth there are so many more dudes playing music then chicks then lets hear it, because I for one am stumped.

[nufan]

Just looked at my top 20 artists on last fm, and I agree with you, it's completley male dominated. BSS, at no. 24 are the first to have any kind of female presence. I didn't count Blackalicous or Tricky, as they only had guest female performers. I honestly can't think of a reason. In the last week it's been a bit better, with M.I.A, the Knife and Emmylou Harris, but it's still mostly guys.

Subconscious male chauvinism++ 

[imapiratearg]

Perhaps it has something to do with large portions of the "civilized" world being patriarchal for the past few centuries?

[petmilk]

feminist points are still far from being invalid.

but i agree, there is a disturbing lack of women in music. on my part, i tend to not really like the sound of female vocalists? higher voices are grating to me -- this might come from years of playing the cello and adjusting my ears to lower sounds, and always having a distinct distaste for the higher octaves on violins. regina spektor's voice drives me insane, i want to throttle her yodeling. i do like bjork quite a bit, though, and the chick from metric.

but why aren't there more women playing instruments? most of the bands i've seen that use strings (like, acoustics, viola, cello, etc.) have female instrumentalists (the instruments are the first ones coming to mind, and murder by death), but you RARELY see a girl on lead guitar or bass. i don't want to say that it's from timidity or a lesser amount of aggression, but actually, i think that has a lot to do with it. the patriarchal point is also a good one.

that said, i recommend the guitarist kaki king if you're looking to get more estrogen into your ipod, 'cause she's great. in one interview she said something to the effect of, "i'd really like it if someone heard my music and was like 'oh wow, that sounds like kaki king' and not 'that sounds really good for a girl.'" it crushed me.

[laizeohbeets]

If a band has a female lead vocalist, I'll turn them off immediately. I probably shouldn't, since I'm a girl, and I sing, but honest-to-GOD, some of those female vocalists' voices drive me up a wall. And the reason why you don't see many female guitarists is because girls are too busy fangirling the hawt male guitarist and not the guitar. But man, if I don't love me a vintage Tele... Ok, so that's probably not the reason, but girls would rather sing than hold a guitar and sing, I guess.

[Caspian]

I'm sure one could argue some sort of feminist point, but that stopped being valid 30 or so years ago.

Thoroughly confused by this statement.

With regards to the rest of your post, I think that it depends on your perspective I guess. My iPod is full of female dominated bands. Both of the music scenes I could claim to have been active in had an equal number of women. I can think of literally hundreds of female dominated bands off the top of my head.

It was some sort of reference to patriachy and whatnot.

Also: Just because you can think of 'literally hundreds of female dominated bands' doesn't mean a great deal. Sure, you could think of a huge amount of female dominated bands, but I bet you could think of a lot more male dominated bands, or at least bands where the males had the majority. Certainly there will be a lot of women in the scene, hell, even my local metal scene has a large amount of girls, but that doesn't seem to translate to the actual bands, and it seems to be that way nation/world-wide.

I guess overall my comment was probably more about those who play their instruments. I guess that while the male/female vocalist ratio is probably quite even, certainly the female/male ratio for, say Electric/Acoustic/Bass Guitar/Drums/Cello/Xylophone/Tuba/etc isn't all that even.

[Caspian]

Okay, as an attempt at adding some objectivity, I've got the top 20 artists on last.fm, and am seeing what the ratio is going to be. Not entirely accurate, sure, but this will help prove the point to some extent.

74 Males, and 1 (ONE!) Female.

Extending that to the top 100 we have 13 females total, and while I'm not sure how many dudes there are, It'd probably be close to 250/300 or so.

[Jackie Blue]

Girls tend to have smaller hands than men which makes it more difficult for them to play guitar?

[imapiratearg]

Dude, I know a girl who has bigger hands than me, and I have big hands for a dude.

[Caspian]

Dude, I know a girl who has bigger hands than me, and I have big hands for a dude.

You know a girl who has bigger hands then you? Wow! That proves a great deal.

[rynne]

Why is it that something like 80% of all band members are male?

Oh, I know!  It is because those particular band members do not have vaginas.

[imapiratearg]

Well, it's anecdotal evidence suggesting that zerodrone's assumption might not be true.

She also plays guitar, and piano.

[Caspian]

It was some sort of reference to patriachy and whatnot.

How did it stop being valid 30 years ago?

Have you considered all the connotations of this thread for example?

No, I certainly haven't considered the connotation of this thread. I just thought it was interesting thought to point out, that's all.

And I'm just basing the whole '30 years' thing off the fact that surely since 1978 there hasn't been a huge amount of obstacles preventing girls from joining bands, as the culture has gotten more accepting over the past 50 or so years of rock.  It's an arbitrary date I set, and it's probably somewhat incorrect; hardly surprising considering that I'm basically totally ignorant of feminism and equal rights and what have you.

[imagist42]

Well, it's anecdotal evidence suggesting that zerodrone's assumption might not be true.

She also plays guitar, and piano.

One piece of anecdotal evidence somehow proves that the assertion "women tend to have smaller hands" (note the last of an absolute qualifier) isn't true?

And as far as the whole feminism-is-no-longer-valid thing... well, if you think women have been able to totally make up thousands of years of repression within the last thirty years, you've got some kind of ignorance going on. Just because there are things that say everything should be equal now doesn't mean everything is.

[Caspian]

ANYWAY. We can discuss my shortcomings and lack of education some other time; that's really not what the thread is about. Nothing wrong with saying that feminism still has a lot of work to do- I don't disagree with that. But how about instead of just saying that, you apply it to the context of the thread?

[laizeohbeets]

Hmm, aren't a lot of obstacles from keeping a girl from joining a band? Well, there's the whole thing that some guys don't think girls can play guitar or drums or bass as well as a guy, even if that's total BS. Now, I for one, can't play guitar as well as a lot of popular guitarists, but it isn't true in every girl's case.

It's also "more acceptable" for guys to lust after cars and guitars, but it doesn't mean girls don't do that, too.

[Near Lurker]

I don't like female vocalists generally.

The B-52's - I hate the songs with heavy female vocals.
Architecture in Helsinki - Sutherland sounds like a ten-year-old.
Scissor Sisters - Ana Matronic's songs are the most irritatingly poppy in the discography.
BSS - This is one of the few bands where I don't mind the female singers.

And then there's the 90's "girl power" genre - Morisette, Brooks, Pink, etc.  All awful, but the singing voices are good.

The problem is that female voices are simply not euphonious; with rare exception, they're purely grating.  Male voices, high or low, have a smoothness to them, or at least a pleasant roughness, that I have never heard a woman attain and never will.

[Caspian]

Hmm, aren't a lot of obstacles from keeping a girl from joining a band? Well, there's the whole thing that some guys don't think girls can play guitar or drums or bass as well as a guy, even if that's total BS. Now, I for one, can't play guitar as well as a lot of popular guitarists, but it isn't true in every girl's case.

It's also "more acceptable" for guys to lust after cars and guitars, but it doesn't mean girls don't do that, too.

Both of them, while somewhat valid, don't really account for the rather massive disrepancy (sp?).

Sure there's the opinion of girls can't play (which in my mind is bollocks- most bands will be happy to take a competent musician, whether they've got a penis or vagina), and again, sure it's maybe seen as "a bit weird" for a girl to want to play guitar. but.. does that really account for the massive difference in the amount of guy/girl musicians? Again, I would say no, it doesn't.

[rynne]

The problem is that female voices are simply not euphonious; with rare exception, they're purely grating.  Male voices, high or low, have a smoothness to them, or at least a pleasant roughness, that I have never heard a woman attain and never will.

Are you seriously claiming that women are not good musicians because they categorically don't have the ability to sing well?  That has to be the most prejudiced statement of the thread yet.

[Jackie Blue]

I find female vocalists very pleasing.  Feist, Cat Power, Amy Milan, the girl that sings in "Lazy Line Painter Jane" has her own band that is really awesome, Annie, Kim and Kelley Deal, the girl from Cub, the Vaselines, Shop Assistants, Rilo Kiley, Sleater-Kinney, Bratmobile, Huggy Bear, Heavenly, etc, the girl in The Kills, Jon Spencer's wife, Justine Frischmann (Elastica), Poly Styrene, Jamie Stewart (I kid, I kid).

I find that of singers where I really say "Wow, I love their voice" almost all of them are female.  However, I seem to prefer the lyrical content of misanthropic burnt-out men (The National, Spiritualized, LCD Soundsystem, etc.) but that's just cause I can like, totally relate man.

[imapiratearg]

You forgot the girl from Be Your Own Pet.  That woman can sing.

[benji]

I tend prefer female voices, too. I would be interested to see some good statistics on that aesthetic preference. Of course, even if more people say they prefer male voices, we then have to ask why that is so. There are, after all, usually cultural or personal reasons for such preferences even when we're not aware of them.

I don't think you can downplay the "role-model" factor. Most mainstream acts have been men for a long time, so boys simply have more opportunity to pretend to be in the band. If girls want to pretend to be female musicians, most of the women they see are singers, so that will tend to be the position they see themselves in.

[öde]

The problem is that female voices are simply not euphonious; with rare exception, they're purely grating.  Male voices, high or low, have a smoothness to them, or at least a pleasant roughness, that I have never heard a woman attain and never will.

I listen to a lot of female artists, but I guess they're still outnumbered by males in my collection. I appreciate both male and female vocals.

[Jackie Blue]

I will probably be roundly chastised for this but I think it is true enough, from the vast, vast majority of girls I have known, that there are less of them in bands because:

1.  Girls who are way into music want to fuck dudes in bands, or at any rate on some level think of them as being "super cool".

2.  Guys want to be in bands so they can be "super cool" and possibly get fucked by girls.

Think about it.  Think about how many girls you know who go on and on about how hot Thurston Moore or Nick Cave are.

[onewheelwizzard]

Personally I think it's because girls are less likely to pick up guitar, bass, or drums in adolescence or earlier.  There's less encouragement from peers, parents, and social networks.  Girls who are interested in musically inclined activities are more likely to go into dance, choir, or orchestral instruments, and this is just a vicious circle of sorts ... girls are more likely to do this sort of thing because their friends are more likely to.  A girl's parents are more likely to give her a violin or a piano, or enroll her in a singing or dance class, than give her a drum kit or a guitar.

It's just a cultural tradition of sorts.  Boys play rock instruments more often than girls because it's more encouraged in youth and adolescence.

[karl gambolputty...]

I will probably be roundly chastised for this but I think it is true enough, from the vast, vast majority of girls I have known, that there are less of them in bands because:

1.  Girls who are way into music want to fuck dudes in bands, or at any rate on some level think of them as being "super cool".

2.  Guys want to be in bands so they can be "super cool" and possibly get fucked by girls.

Think about it.  Think about how many girls you know who go on and on about how hot Thurston Moore or Nick Cave are.

I don't see why this should be a barrier to girls becoming musicians.  I'd give my left nut to fuck Kim Gordon, but that doesn't stop me from playing bass myself. 

[Jackie Blue]

I'm not saying it's a barrier to girls becoming musicians, I'm saying it's a barrier to them wanting to be musicians.  Whether through cultural process or whatever, fact is that 99% of every girl I've known that has been "way into" music has wanted to be with a musician, not be one.

[diablo_man]

i dont know. to me, most girls singers i compare with tasteless guitar wankery, ala M.A.B.   honestly most of the time i hear a female singer i just get this impression of "look how high my voice can go, and how long i can hold this one, or how many notes i can strangle out of this one phrases. so with few exceptions, i prefer male vocalists.
the most technically impressive and well known(sort of) female guitarist i can think of (cant remember her name, was linked from a guitarist discussion on female guitarists) isnt actually that good and just makes a living out of being female.

since i mostly listen to guitar oriented songs, and the most talented female guitarists i know of could be smoked by a mediocre male lead,, i dont have much female bands.
with the exception of heart and fleetwood mac.

drumming wise, nothing against girls, but i doubt most girls have the endurance to play the heavy technical type of drumming i listen to.

which leaves us with bass, oddly enough probably the instrument least suited to women (the long scale length and strength required), yet it has the larger amount of female players. damned if i know why.

however in a lot of metal bands (specifically the more progressive, folky ones) there are a lot of female instrumentalists on the non standard instruments, violin, etc

[Hat]

Because being in a band is a great way to meet hot chicks, not hot guys not so much.

[GenericName]

This thread is all kinds of wrong. I'll even just say that shoegaze with a male vocalist is not very good shoegaze at all, as my iPod reflects. Then, I will finish my post and continue to simply watch theories of male dominance evolve in spite of this irrefutable evidence.

Irrefutable in my opinion, at least.

[rynne]

Seriously, I keep waiting for the next post to be something like, "Girls aren't good at music because they spend all their time cooking and having babies."  The misogyny is totally nuts.

[a pack of wolves]

I don't think you can downplay the "role-model" factor. Most mainstream acts have been men for a long time, so boys simply have more opportunity to pretend to be in the band. If girls want to pretend to be female musicians, most of the women they see are singers, so that will tend to be the position they see themselves in.

I think this is a large factor. Women in bands seem on average to get a larger degree of negative criticism than men as well, which probably makes the roles seem even less appealing. Then there is the fact that their appearance never seems to escape notice and comment, which would be an unappealing aspect for many people. It almost seems like a rarity to hear a conversation about a band with a female member without something being said about the way she looks. Not that there is anything wrong with appreciating someone's physical appearance, but it seems too frequent to me. After all these people are musicians not models, and why do people so often need to comment about disliking someone's appearance, of their approval or disapproval of any changes they made?

I think the subject matter of music is another factor though. Women are, for a vast amount of popular music, the subject of songs and not their participants. In a lot they're demonised and depersonalised, becoming nothing more than an evil agent that tormented the poor singer at some point in the past. This kind of attitude is hardly going to encourage people to become active participants in the music. There is also the fact that women are in general encouraged to be less forward and have less agency than men, which doesn't lend itself well to something as forward as public performance particularly in genres generally regarded as making confrontational, rebellious music (punk, hip hop, metal etc).

There's also the fact that they're constantly treated as a special case. I find it incredibly bizarre that people can dislike female vocalists as a whole so often when I've never heard this opinion about male singers. When a woman is in a band their gender will constantly be a matter of consideration (woman first, musician second, always referred to as being a woman in music in both positive and negative ways) in a way a male band member's genre won't be. Unless of course they play in a band with a woman, I've seen reviews that have treated the male members of a band that included a woman in the stereotypically dominant role of lead vocals as somehow emasculated.

As for the comment someone made about bass being unsuited to women... er, have you never taken a close look at a bass? Or a woman? You don't need to have the proportions of a basketball player combined with the strength of Geoff Capes to play one you know, nor are women the miniscule weedy people you seem to think they are.

[Jinjo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbxRu7fwR24

I have a theory. Girls are just too angry when we make music. You guys don't like pissed off ladies.

[jeph]

My guess is that girls tend to be more interested in non-band-related things during the critical high-school/college years. I am guessing this is primarily a cultural/social thing- "girls should care about boys and makeup and fashion" etc. It's more socially acceptable to be a dude in a band than a girl, I think.

I think it's probably more intimidating to be a girl in a band, too.

However I am not a sociologist so I could be completely wrong.

[Jackie Blue]

The misogyny is totally nuts.

Ah, it took longer than I thought for the "m" word to come out.

Someone please lock this thread.  Now.

[michaelicious]

The misogyny is totally nuts.

Ah, it took longer than I thought for the "m" word to come out.

Someone please lock this thread.  Now.

Why is that the post that makes you want this thread locked?

[imapiratearg]

I think it's probably more intimidating to be a girl in a band, too.

I think Jeph is on to something.  I think it might certainly be more intimidating as a girl in a band.  I mean, in a scene dominated by dudes, being up on stage as a girl would pretty much put you in the spotlight to be both oogled and lusted after.  It might draw a lot of unwanted attention, etc. etc.

That's just my assumption, though.

[Jackie Blue]

Why is that the post that makes you want this thread locked?

Clearly it is because I hate women.

Calling anyone in this thread a misogynist is the point at which hyperbole emerges.  Some people seem to be pretty ignorant of some things (like the guy who says that all female singers he knows of are only trying to show range/technical ability, as though he's actually never heard Cat Power or Yo La Tengo or, fuck, anything other than Mariah Carey) but tarring anyone in this thread with the epithet "misogynist" is intellectually lazy at best.

[Jinjo]

I have a theory. Girls are just too angry when we make music. You guys don't like pissed off ladies.

Incorrect! 

I guess I should be more pissed off then. 

[jeph]

It's a tricky thing to talk about without someone getting offended! People are making some good points though.

I wonder if any musicologist has done a gender census on bands from a given timeframe. I mean, do any of us really *know* that there are fewer females in bands? And if so, what are the proportions (insert joke about boobs and hips here)? Unfortunately all we have to go on so far is anecdotal evidence, which while interesting can't actually prove anything.

Just looking at pop music from the last fifty years, it seems like female musicians, singers in particular, are holding their own in terms of success.

I'm not sure what I think about girls in bands being ogled more than guys- certainly there's more of a "novelty" factor in an attractive woman in, say, a heavy metal band, but i'm sure girls in a given band's audience do just as much guy-ogling as vice versa.

[Jackie Blue]

Angry girl music is awesome.

[KvP]

Personally I think it's because girls are less likely to pick up guitar, bass, or drums in adolescence or earlier.  There's less encouragement from peers, parents, and social networks.  Girls who are interested in musically inclined activities are more likely to go into dance, choir, or orchestral instruments, and this is just a vicious circle of sorts ... girls are more likely to do this sort of thing because their friends are more likely to.  A girl's parents are more likely to give her a violin or a piano, or enroll her in a singing or dance class, than give her a drum kit or a guitar.

It's just a cultural tradition of sorts.  Boys play rock instruments more often than girls because it's more encouraged in youth and adolescence.

I think this is true, and it correlates with "non-traditional" bands (ie non guitar-drum-bass-vocals) having a better rate of female membership. The chances are better that a band with cello or violin or piano will have a girl in it. The exception to this is singers, I guess. There are probably more frontwomen than there are female lead guitarists out there.

I was reading an interview with Beth Ditto from the Gossip not too long ago and she said roughly the same thing that A Pack of Wolves said way up there after being asked if the publicity she got hurt her band (her response was that nobody would ever ask James Murphy if DFA hurt LCD Soundsystem). The comment section of that article was 80% "Oh gross it's a fatty" and 10% "Oh gross it's a fat lesbian". So it can be pretty hard out there. I don't particularly think the Donnas were all that good for the short amount of time they were in the limelight but it seemed to me that there was at least an element of "they're girls pretending to rock" in that backlash.

And interestingly enough, outside of traditional pop music, the genre that's probably the most equitable gender-wise in both sales and respect is country and western music, at least here in America.

Not that I have data to back any of this up, mind you.

[diablo_man]

  Some people seem to be pretty ignorant of some things (like the guy who says that all female singers he knows of are only trying to show range/technical ability, as though he's actually never heard Cat Power or Yo La Tengo or, fuck, anything other than Mariah Carey) but tarring anyone in this thread with the epithet "misogynist" is intellectually lazy at best.

well, thats clearly aimed at me. thats fine, i was referring to most of the music that i had heard with female vocalists, and with that frame of reference i stand by what i said.
not saying all female singers of every genre are like that, i know they aren't, but as i haven't heard most of the stuff you guys talk about yet, i figured it would be stupid to assume anything about it. that part of my post is definitely aimed mostly at pop singers, but it holds with a lot of rock and alternative stuff i have heard as well.
regardless of how that represents female singers as a whole, i dont find that kind of singing to my tastes.

i will be checking out these other ones(cat power, etc) though.

and about bass guitars, i didnt say girls cant play them as that is obviously false, but when i compare it to the guitar it seems like it would be harder for an average girl to play. body wise, you dont need to be a long fingered muscle man to play bass, but you cant deny that at some point it would probably help.

im surprised that more girls don't do keyboards in bands. from my experience, it seems like a lot more girls grew up playing piano than guys (more socially acceptable, i guess ) 
i would love to see more girl guitarists and musicians in the music scene. unfortunately guitar wise, girls aren't at the same level as guys yet. hopefully, as more girls get over the social barriers, that will change.

*disclaimer* my preferred music is metal so that is where the electric guitar and drums, etc comments are coming from.

and girls arent always just novelty factors. case in point angela gossgow from arch enemy

[Jackie Blue]

Actually from what I remember the only reason The Donnas sold albums was because they were girls.

[mfpole]

I think its because a lot of the nerdy guys who start bands are scared to have girls in their band.

That doesn't explain why as many girls don't start their own band though..

[Skibas_clavicle]

I'm just gonna say patriarchy to avoid reading all the posts.

[Jackie Blue]

Nerdy guys start bands?

 

[a pack of wolves]

All the ones I've been in, yeah. Although come to think of it, they were usually started by nerdy girls at the same time.

Actually from what I remember the only reason The Donnas sold albums was because they were girls.

That did seem to be the main reason, that fact drove their marketing. This meant that both the positive and negative reactions to the band were focussed on their gender rather than anything else. If that fact was disregarded they were just a sub-par pop-punk band, and there were vast numbers of those kicking around at the time and enjoyable comparable levels of success. There was a reason The Donnas were as hated as they were.

[laizeohbeets]

I thought The Donnas were pretty much touted as The Female Ramones? Seriously, I may rock out to the Ramones, but it doesn't make them any more technically skilled.

[Jackie Blue]

I honestly don't remember the Donnas being hated for any reason other than that they only had maybe one and a half decent albums' worth of material.

Perhaps some people resented them for being perceived as "using tits to sell music", but Hell, there were people who said that Sleater-Kinney's early material was only popular because boys wanted to hear a girl singing "I wanna be your Thurston Moore".

But in the grand scheme of things, bands are hated for lots of silly reasons, and gender is, I think, no more particularly guilty of this syndrome.  People hate Interpol for dressing cool.  People hate Conor Oberst's haircut.  People hate anyone who lets someone use their song in a commercial.  Etc.