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[tania]

the areas where prostitution is worst, though (by "worst" i mean involving the aforementioned cases where women somehow end up in that career as a last resort) are areas where it's illegal, because these women have no protection by the law and are at risk of abuse from clients and pimps. they also have to turn over virtually everything they make to pimps and thus are essentially slaves. there aren't a lot of complaints in areas where prostitution is legal from women who work for and support themselves and really enjoy their line of work. i don't know anything at all about the legality of pornographic media but maybe it's similar in ways.

[RedLion]

I'm not so sure that's true. I think that regulated and limited prostitution should be legalized, but there's no evidence that it makes the prostitutes themselves safer. Look at the Netherlands. In Amsterdam, prostitution is actually incredibely dangerous, and the pimps are incredibely violent. Because it's legalized, human traffickers bring in women from Romania, Bulgaria and other Eastern European countries, as well as impoverished Asian nations like Nepal and Cambodia and basically use them as slaves, paying them little or nothing and so increasing their own profits. It's becoming an increasingly common phenomenon in Amsterdam and other cities and countries where prostitution is either legalized or winked at.

Further, even though it's legalized in Amsterdam, it's not regular and watched over, so it still continues to operate in the dark, even though the process itself is standing in open daylight for all to see.

Violence against prostitutes has become so endemic in Amsterdam that the city has begun to shut down a large number of brothels and independent sex-selling pimps in the city. It's basically attempting to abolish the red-light district because the crime and violence in and around it have become such a blight on the city in recent years.

[tania]

ah, i didn't know any of that stuff about amsterdam. i read an article really recently about illegal prostitution in new york and the anthropologist was basically arguing how all these terrible problems would be solved if prostitution was legalized. i guess one article is not enough to base an argument on.

i would probably argue that male directors dod function a lot like pimps, but there's still a lot of grey area. are all male directors misogynists simply because they're men? what about female directors who also cast women in submissive roles, are they exempt because they're women profiting from other women? similarly, doesn't porn also place guys in a position where they are getting paid to have sex on video? i actually don't have arguments for any of these questions because i still find most porn creepy as hell but it would be interesting to hear what other people think.

[jhocking]

At this point in the debate I'm getting a little confused about what people are discussing. Like, I kinda want to respond to points here and there, but I'm not sure what exactly you're getting at. For instance, tommy are you arguing for some specific change in the status of pornography in society, or are you just explaining your personal distaste? Some people seem to be arguing that porn should or should not be made illegal, while others seem to just be explaining why they do or do not watch porn, and it isn't clear to me who is saying what.

[BrittanyMarie]

For me, the whole topic of porn is a giant grey area. I think I've watched one porn ever in my life, and it was lesbian. That's what you get when you tell your guy friends you've never seen any.

I do think porn has the potential to be extremely empowering for any sex, with a sort of "this is my body, and it is amazing." mentality. I just question how much of it actually is a positive thing for the people involved. A lot of porn stars will say that they love their job, that they love what they do, but couldn't that be just a cognitive dissonance thing? And does that make it less valid? As for what Joe asked (the first time!), of course women directors and producers can also be exploitive of the women in the films. It might make sense to argue more in terms of power dynamics as opposed to gender, especially once Tommy brought that up in relation to gay porn.

[Ozymandias]

I grew up Internet style from a very young age. As such, I've been exposed to all sorts of porn, the most degrading and disgusting stuff possible, throughout my life, especially the more formidable years of sexual development.

However, I don't think I have any really weird sexual hangups or desire to dominate or subjugate or degrade women despite that. Hell, my current taste in porn is pretty much, in general, only things that the women themselves have the control over or just genuine amateur stuff. It grates on me to hear or see male directors giving orders or controlling the flow of the porn.

That's just my personal experience in porn, though, hardly scientifically rigorous.

That said, the porn industry is not a healthy place for anyone. It is, of course, the choice of any woman who goes into it to do it and people choose to do terrible, unhealthy things to themselves all the time, but it's still miserable and made doubly so because so many people literally get off on this unhealthy choice. The advent of the internet has only made it worse because now any jackass with a camera can just do it without even the moderate regulation of the old establishment of the porn industry. I remember being on 4chan and there was a thread with a bunch of porn (on 4chan?! NO!) of one girl in particular, when her Wikipedia article was posted talking about how she was raped repeatedly by family members and strangers growing up and then was murdered a year or so back. This being 4chan, the immediate response was HURR THAT MAKES IT HOTTER which basically made me approach violent anger, but it demonstrated the kind of people who probably often go into porn and the kind of people who probably often enjoy it.

I don't know. I think it can be made as a celebration of sexuality and beautiful men and women, but the status quo is HURR VAGINA WITH LEGS FUCK FUCK and I'm not sure that can ever be changed in our lifetime. I'm pretty much against "vice laws" in general and prefer regulation of vice industries over criminalization and porn isn't really an exception, but I still wish it could be changed somehow.

[jhocking]

I'm literally explaining why I don't like pornography.

I don't think we should ban it.

ah cool thanks for the clarification. I kinda feel like all debates should start with participants clearly delineating their viewpoint.

HURR VAGINA WITH LEGS FUCK FUCK

That reminds me, last night I was watching an episode of The Wire from season 3, and detective McNulty described himself as a breathing machine for his dick. That was pretty funny.

[Verergoca]

<rant about amsterdam beeing the DEVILSCRIB

Uhm, no.

A). Prostitution is legal in the entirety of the Netherlands. We dont give a crap about your opinion.
AII). Also, guess who earns money on tourists coming for the pot n hookers?
B). The big clubs in amsterdam are beeing shot down due to moneylaundering
C). With prostitution beeing legalized, it is possible to you know, figure out weither or not someone is treating their employees fairly. If you dont, you lose your permit, which yes, would force you into the shades. In the shades noone will look after the way the employees are treated.
D). If legal, we get to tax things! Yay, filling the states coffers!

[0bsessions]

I've been filmed having sex. I have even filmed myself having sex. Apparently it's something I do when I'm drunk. Whoever put an easy video function on mobile phones is indirectly responsible for so much.

It astounds me that we, as a society, have gotten to the point where we're filming amatuer porn on telephones.

I think I've realized the premise for the third movie in the Sam Knight trilogy (Following Parental Consent and Sam Knight, P.I.): Sam plays Sherman alongside a digitally rendered Mr. Peabody (Voiced by Rodrick). The two hop in their wayback machine and go back in time, informing Antonio Meucci that, in about 250 years' time, his great invention would essentially be reduced to a device used to archive the fornication of one Tommydski. What follows is an epic tale of time travel and intrique as Sherman and Peabody attempt to rectify their mistake, which has resulted in a modern world without telephones.

Edit: Shit, I forgot I already had a third movie featuring Jimmy as a horrible alien overlord named Jalkor who tries to take over Sam's galaxy when his parents forget to take him on vacation with them.

[Hat]

I forgot there was a pagebreak

[redglasscurls]

I really don't have much of an issue with the porn industry in general, but I would be very uncomfortable with a sex partner watching porn regularly. It's too hard not to feel like you're being compared to professionals and found lacking.

[bryanthelion]

That pastor isn't that hot.

The only surmisable thing I can come up with in relation to porn is the people forced into it. You cannot tell me that the girls in two girls, one cup weren't sex-slaves or doing it for drugs.

But besides that little quip, I would SO do porn.

[PickItUpPutItDown]

In all seriousness, this has become a surprisingly stimulating thread.

[Ozymandias]

HURR

[KvP]

I really don't have much of an issue with the porn industry in general, but I would be very uncomfortable with a sex partner watching porn regularly. It's too hard not to feel like you're being compared to professionals and found lacking.

Hmn, I don't claim any expertise or anything of that nature, but we men, well, most of us like porn. And we generally like whacking it, even when we're in a committed relationship. It's going to happen. I mean, sure, if you're spending too much time watching porn, that's bad. But so is too much WoW or too much drinking. That doesn't mean we ought not play dumb MMOs or drink. What if your significant other isn't in the mood? You can try and convince them otherwise, or you can shove off and take care of yourself. Porn is useful in this context for everyone. Hell, I even know couples who like watching porn together. Don't necessarily understand it, but it's out there.

I'm not saying you ought to be absolutely comfortable with a partner watching porn, I'm just saying that as these things go, it's pretty natural and it's not necessarily indicative of disapproval of you or your relationship. And I'd bet that most guys would probably not have much fun participating in porn-style sex. Nobody's having fun in those videos! It looks pretty mechanical.

[jhocking]

I would be very uncomfortable with a sex partner watching porn regularly

translation: I date liars.





note for the slow: I kid a lot.

[RedLion]

<rant about amsterdam beeing the DEVILSCRIB

Uhm, no.

A). Prostitution is legal in the entirety of the Netherlands. We dont give a crap about your opinion.
AII). Also, guess who earns money on tourists coming for the pot n hookers?
B). The big clubs in amsterdam are beeing shot down due to moneylaundering
C). With prostitution beeing legalized, it is possible to you know, figure out weither or not someone is treating their employees fairly. If you dont, you lose your permit, which yes, would force you into the shades. In the shades noone will look after the way the employees are treated.
D). If legal, we get to tax things! Yay, filling the states coffers!

I believe you, since you live there. But that's not what The New York Times, Newsweek and The Economist say.

It wasn't my "opinion." It's what's been reported. Numerous times. By numerous sources.

[blanktom]

You know, I think I can truly thank the internet for the fact I am neither shocked or disgusted by videos like '2 Girls 1 Cup'.

Thankyou, internet.

[est]

It's too hard not to feel like you're being compared to professionals and found lacking.

Watching relatively attractive people having a lot of fun playing football/poker/piano wouldn't stop me from wanting to do those things in person.  I really only ever found my partner lacking in comparison to a porn actress about ten years ago in my first relationship when I was too young to know any better, but a decent talk between us sorted it out in fairly short order.  I'm not saying that it doesn't happen, I guess I'm just trying to say that if it does then there's got to be a dialogue between the two of you to clear things up.

[tania]

there's a small bit in fargo rock city where chuck klosterman talks about why so many teenage boys are obsessed with strippers and porn actresses, and the book as a whole has absolutely nothing to do with this (it's actually about his love of 80's hair metal), but he still makes a pretty neat point regardless. basically he said that guys obsess over these women because of the fact that they are fantasy women - but that's actually all they are. so his girlfriend complained because she felt that she was supposed to be his fantasy women, and he kept trying to explain that while he loved her and thought she was really super fantastic she could never be his fantasy woman because he already knew lots of stuff about her and thus had to acknowledge her as a real human being no matter what. and it didn't mean he would rather be with a stripper or porn actress than her, only that strippers/porn actresses/models/etc are intriguing to hormonal teenage boys because they give off that fantasy woman, i'm-not-actually-a-real-person quality that actual real life girls don't have. it makes sense i guess, i could understand why a guy would enjoy porn but at the same time still not hold his girlfriend to those expectations. or vice versa with a girl and her boyfriend i guess.

i think i would still be uncomfortable with the idea of a significant other watching porn, though, but mostly for hey-most-porn-is-really-fucking-terrifying reasons.

[est]

It's basically like wrestling.

[Skibas_clavicle]

I think the point was more that the girls in the videos (or girls in mainstream porn in general, I guess) from those places are NEVER in control.

hm, but what of all the porn companies run by women? Do you think those are okay then?

INSERT POST FEMINISM JOKE!

Anyways, there is so much to discuss when it comes to pornography.  I personally don't really watch porn but it's something I've been an issue I've thought about.  First off, I'd like to ask Tania, you mentioned that they've found correlations between men who watch pornography and violence, I've read that there are very few and/or low correlations between these two, so I don't really know who's right here. However, I do agree with you that porn is really degrading to women.  I really, really detest the idea and literal action of cum shots; I need not explain why, I'm sure you are all smart enough to figure it out.

I've got more stuff I'd like to mention and ask people stuff, but I'm way too tired to form well structured sentences.
 

[jimbunny]

My question: what's the deal with the close-up shot of a penis going in and out of a vagina? I mean, who really wants to watch that?

Excuse the pun, but most porn is just so fucking boring.

[Slick]

It's just part of my theory that most men are more gay than they believe. I mean, there is a lot of cock in porn, and a lot of looking at the dudes. I mean, porn is full of ugly men and cock close ups. Really, I would like more of the ladies and less of this dude who looks like a dick talking dirty.
Porn is pretty gay.

[Ozymandias]

Yeah, that's why I try to stay away from male dominated professional porn too. I even like dicks, but my god those dudes are annoying and unattractive. If I want to see dicks, I'll watch gay porn. Boom. Two attractive dudes with good dicks not being annoying because their mouths are too full of dick.

[Dimmukane]

Slick: I'm pretty sure that was the basis for a Ron White joke...

Ozymandias: I think the reason for the actors being annoying is largely due to script.  There've been a slew of new sites focusing on girls being doodled with large and/or clearly fake members recently.  The plot is typically this: guy sees hot girl doing something (could be a pajama party, shopping at home depot, etc.)  Guy introduces himself somehow (I'm a fan of your porno), says he has a big dick to get her interested.  The rest is color commentary.

[Ozymandias]

That doesn't make them less annoying and it isn't just those sites. It's a large swath of industry porn.

[muteKi]

It's just part of my theory that most men are more gay than they believe. I mean, there is a lot of cock in porn, and a lot of looking at the dudes. I mean, porn is full of ugly men and cock close ups. Really, I would like more of the ladies and less of this dude who looks like a dick talking dirty.
Porn is pretty gay.

This is why I only look for lez porns and such if I do so. If I really want to explore the specifically male body parts I can do so with my own.

[KharBevNor]

My alternative name when Fenriswolf is taken is Hrovitnir, a word I can't even pronounce and is actually spelt Hróđvitnir

Rather hard to write down the sounds, but something like 'Hurrod-th-veetnear'. The d-like letter is an eth, and is pronounced th as in them.

You cannot tell me that the girls in two girls, one cup weren't sex-slaves or doing it for drugs.

"
I could easily claim that. Just because you're not into coprophagia doesn't mean there aren't people who are. Ooh, look, Wikipedia, everyone's favourite source of data:

"The video originated from a 36-year-old Brazilian man, named Marco Fiorito, who describes himself as a "compulsive fetishist".[7] Fiorito originally produced foot fetish videos but soon moved on to coprophagia. The film was produced by MFX-Video, one of several companies owned by Fiorito.[7] Fiorito contends his films are legal in Brazil, but authorities in the United States have branded some of his films as obscene and filed charges against Danilo Croce, a Brazilian lawyer living in Florida, listed as an officer of a company distributing Fiorito's films in the United States.[7] Croce accepted a plea bargain and was sentenced to 3 years of unsupervised probation and forfeiture of $98,000.[7] Fiorito claimed he did not know his films were illegal in the United States and that his films often contained chocolate instead of feces to appease some of his actors who were willing to appear in scat films but not actually eat fecal matter.[7]"

Yeah this dude is totally a crack dealing white slaver.

[morca007]

The only porn debate is "what do I watch tonight?"

[Darkbluerabbit]

This is why I only look for lez porns and such if I do so. If I really want to explore the specifically male body parts I can do so with my own.

I wish there was more "lesbian" porn with women who are genuinely into women and not just putting on a show. 

[muteKi]

Interestingly enough, a lot of the lez porn I look at is totally staged (Lightspeed Girls).

I think I prefer my porn to be as nonsexual as possible.


(Of course, I love nudes. I just found a bunch of alt-nude torrents. That said, some such sites have some bad reputations of their own. I was exploring how SuicideGirls tried to destroy the careers of any models that did stuff for competing sites and such the other day as well.)

[calenlass]

So there is this really awesome lesbian scene at the end of that Pirates movie that came out a couple of years ago. Holy fucking shit.


That is my entire opinion on the subject.

[LordNagash]

I think a good way to explore the topic would be to remove some elements of porn and see how it changes the perception of it. What if instead of sex, porn consisted of two (or more) people (usually a male and female) eating a dinner together. Most of the time a man would get a bigger share, and it would focus on when he finishes the meal, and likely not show any partner(s) finishing their meal (possibly not eating it much at all.) Some people might like different meals to be eaten, and some extreme ones could involve force feeding or some other violent twists.

Would you feel the same way about it? Obviously it would likely not be very popular, but would perception of the videos change?

I do not mean to promote any particular 'side', I just though this might be an interesting exercise.

[Tom]

Isn't that like... 17th century puritan porn. How scandalous?! 

[Fenriswolf]

My alternative name when Fenriswolf is taken is Hrovitnir, a word I can't even pronounce and is actually spelt Hróđvitnir

Rather hard to write down the sounds, but something like 'Hurrod-th-veetnear'. The d-like letter is an eth, and is pronounced th as in them.

Awesome. My interpretation is probably about as good as it's going to get without imitating a native speaker then.

This is why I only look for lez porns and such if I do so. If I really want to explore the specifically male body parts I can do so with my own.

I wish there was more "lesbian" porn with women who are genuinely into women and not just putting on a show. 

Yeah, it's pretty annoying looking at your average "lesbian" porn, and for a start they have huge nails (uh huh, that's just great for fingering), but more importantly most of them aren't very good fakers. *sigh* I'd rather watch amateur videos of girls hooking up in clubs. Though that whole thing has become somewhat creepy of late what with the fucking Girls Gone Wild bullshit *gag*

the unfortunate thing about pornography is that it's also an area where it's really hard to draw the line between what's degrading and what isn't. an amateur video featuring a girl being gang banged and clearly not enjoying it isn't hard to identify, but what about girls who really legitimately enjoy being in videos and being submissive and make a very decent living off of it? mostly i am trying to play the devil's advocate  here but really what a lot of people seem to miss is that telling a women she can't be in pornography because it's degrading is really just as sexist as telling her she's nothing but an object for guys to put their dicks in, because both scenarios still ignore the fact that women are actually smart enough to make their own decisions. kind of like what brittany said i guess, is something really degrading if you understand what's going on and are comfortable and in control of the situation? probably not.

I definitely see what you're saying. But then I think there's a pretty clear delineation between movies where the men are cutting the film to be degrading, and one where the woman/en enjoy something that's traditionally degrading. I am uncomfortable with porn that is for men who get off on degrading women, for while dom-play (that may be degrading) is all good in private with lots of communication I just don't feel comfortable making it something acceptable for a general audience (um, not that I think BDSM porn is bad but rather that that's a very specific subset of porn and very different to disgusting pigs like Max Hardcore).

I guess it's like rape fantasies - it's understandable for women to have rape fantasies, or men on the receiving end. It's taking control of something that is ultimately traumatising due to your lack of control. But I just don't know how I can accept men (or women) fantasising about raping someone. It all gets very delicate when you're part of a rape fantasy with your partner and obviously on some levels you enjoy it. But if you are not uncomfortable with the role you're playing (as the rapist) then I just don't think you should be doing it. And I just cannot see any kind of consent-blurring on film as OK at all (including stuff like shoving your cock so hard down the actress's throat that she gets tears in her eyes  )

I agree that it's utterly patronising to say that women cannot choose to be a porn star or prostitute and own that decision, but we mustn't start acting like this all occurs in a vacuum. All things being equal I think porn is awesome but in the real world there are a lot of issues with power differentials and social dynamics. Sometimes your decisions are not 100% your own.

Finally, legalisation of prostitution. Prostitution is legal in NZ. Thankfully that means we don't have arsehole cops getting to abuse women for selling their bodies. But it doesn't seem to have helped women a lot, there's not a hell of a lot of regulation and it's very difficult for women to work without a madam since we have by-laws in all our main cities saying prostitutes have to work in the CBD: something that is prohibitively expensive.

[Fenriswolf]

I guess it's like rape fantasies - it's understandable for women to have rape fantasies, or men on the receiving end.

Sorry to nitpick but I'm constantly mortified by the idea of 'rape fantasy'. If you're fantasising about it, it's not actually rape because there's consent inherent within the fantasy. Rape is completely without consent, implied or otherwise.

I understand fantasising about aggressive sex with a complete stranger but I don't think it's fair to call this rape.

Actually, that's the whole point. Rape fantasties are common - as in roleplaying at non-consent, hence the comment about reclaiming power. But it's not fantasising about aggressive sex with a stranger, it's fantasising about rape. Either as someone who has been raped and wants to use roleplay as a way to work through their pain, or just as a woman living in a world where rape is so prevalent and fucking terrifying.

The idea of even remotely attempting a rape roleplay makes me incredibly panicky so it's certainly not for everyone. But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

[Dimmukane]

So there is this really awesome lesbian scene at the end of that Pirates movie that came out a couple of years ago. Holy fucking shit.


That is my entire opinion on the subject.

My little brother saw the cover and synopsis on the website and thought it was a Pirates of the Caribbean knock-off (which it is) and asked me to go rent it for him.  I got there, looked at the back of it, sighed and took it up to the counter.  I was checked out by one of the most conservative girls in my graduating class.  Not the most awkward thing I've ever done, but it's up there.

For those of you who don't know it's a reasonablystiffcore porn.

[jhocking]

My fiancee and I once saw it on the "New Releases" rack in a Blockbuster. I don't know if the clerks did it on purpose as a joke, or if they genuinely didn't realize they were stocking a porn.

[Darkbluerabbit]

So I guess "rape simulation" or "rape roleplay" would more precise terms, given that the basic idea isn't actually being raped, but pretending to be?

According to Masters and Johnson, womens' rape fantasies have a lot to do with guilt.  The theory is that even in today's society, some women are still ashamed of their sexuality.  Subconsciously, by fantasizing about themselves in the role of a victim, they don't have to feel "dirty" for having sex. 

It's just a theory, of course, and I read it in an older book.  It puts an interesting perspective on the matter though. 

[muteKi]

1. Continuing on Lez porn: the stuff I usually look at is on the goofy side. The first half of one video that I actually bothered to watch was just all the girls playing around, like one very sexy farce. I thought it was brilliant.

2. In regards to the post above me, that actually makes some sense, then; I was in the boat of the others with the idea of a "rape fantasy", that it made little to no sense. [Of course I just want my sex to be sex, none of this leather or metal or other bullshit, so I can't really say much on any fetishes.]

[ruyi]

I think your italicized examples are a moot point because sex is a thing typically fantasized about.

Anyways, I agree that the term "rape fantasy" is generally used incorrectly. Such fantasies are typically related to domination fantasies in general, and they typically 1) involve the dominator being someone the subject finds attractive and desirable, and the subject 2) ends up deriving pleasure from the fantasized scenario. Now, this isn't so hard to imagine, is it? But you're right, it's never really rape at all by virtue of the fact that they want it.

As for why this happens, I don't know. Maybe people, whether or not they have experienced rape in the past, are trying to rehabilitate a thing often sensationalized in society. Even though the fantasy described is not truly rape, perhaps this desire to rehabilitate it is why the term gets applied?

Legitimate "rape fantasies" should only apply to the small number of people who respond to trauma from rape by having unwanted thoughts they do not enjoy.

[tania]

I've seen that DVD at Tania's house.

that dvd actually belongs to my creepy pervert lesbian housemates. i got about halfway through actually before coming across (surprise!) a scene depicting one of the girls sort of raping another girl and then halfway through she started to like it and i decided that was just about enough for me.

which brings me to my point about how most sex offenders usually try to justify their actions by claiming that if you're really persistent the girl will just start to enjoy the sex halfway through. it's really common for these people to actually say "i didn't do anything wrong, she was really enjoying it" despite the fact that the girl was saying no the entire time. it can sometimes be really fucking hard to separate physical and emotional arousal when it comes to sex. basically any guy or girl who has not actually wanted to have sex at a certain given time but is still really physically aroused for some reason can probably attest to that. and it's unfortunate, because often the women who report the most trauma from being raped are the ones who orgasm during the experience. i can't imagine anything that would leave you feeling more fucked up and powerless than that. maybe guys really like the idea of rape fantasies because they think if you're really persistent and forceful the girl will just give up and start to like it halfway through, but i guess what they don't get is that it really is possible to physically respond to sex and at the same time find the experience completely horrible.

[tania]

ew!

[BrittanyMarie]

My fiancee and I once saw it on the "New Releases" rack in a Blockbuster. I don't know if the clerks did it on purpose as a joke, or if they genuinely didn't realize they were stocking a porn.

It's technically not a porn. Well, it is, but it's softcore, which is totally legal in most states. There's no penetration, see. The video store I work at has a ton on of newer playboy releases, which are just naked ladies bouncing around. We get a lot of phone calls asking if we carry porn, and it's incredibly awkward trying to describe the difference in a sort of roundabout way, because saying "there's no penetration" at work just seems wrong.

[20 jazz funk greats]

I think your italicized examples are a moot point because sex is a thing typically fantasized about.

That's sort of my point. I was being deliberately ridiculous but the point remains rape is not a thing typically fantasised about either. Not by most women anyway.

There probably have been people who fantasise about all of the above for whatever reason but there are in an absolute, absolute minority.

not the most common fantasy (rape, not being dominated or sex with strangers since some of you seem a bit confused about that), but it may be slightly more common than you think.
it's just not the sort of thing that most people would openly admit, cause of the feelings of guilt and such associated with it.
and not only women fantasize about getting raped.

[jhocking]

To clarify for Joe Hocking - I think it's dangerous for any male to believe that a woman might secretly want him to rape her.

I don't know if you were teasing, but that's actually a helpful clarification. I was wondering why you seemed to have such a problem with the concept of rape fantasies; so it's not so much the fantasy in and of itself you find problematic, but rather people who would use that to justify actual rape. I'm wondering why you brought this up since I didn't notice anyone suggesting rape is ok (read: I didn't see that post) but assuming your tangent is relevant, I certainly agree that the existence of rape fantasies does not in any way excuse rape.

As ruyi pointed out, those examples you gave aren't great because they have nothing to do with sexual fantasies, so how about this example: Does the fact that some men have a cuckold fetish make it okay for a wife to cheat on her husband?


ADDITION: oh wait, thinking about it more, is your actual point that one problem with porn is that it makes men think rape fantasies are common? Because that is both relevant to the thread and something I wouldn't have considered.

It's technically not a porn. Well, it is, but it's softcore, which is totally legal in most states. There's no penetration, see. The video store I work at has a ton on of newer playboy releases, which are just naked ladies bouncing around. We get a lot of phone calls asking if we carry porn, and it's incredibly awkward trying to describe the difference in a sort of roundabout way, because saying "there's no penetration" at work just seems wrong.

I've watched a little of that movie (after katie's enthusiastic post I kinda wish I watched the end, but oh well) and if that's considered "softcore" well damn.

[tania]

it may be slightly more common than you think

but would those women still have those kinds of fantasies if rape/aggression towards women wasn't so commonly portrayed in porn in the first place? people are influenced by what they watch.

[20 jazz funk greats]

rape fantasies typically originate from past experience, not media influence.
if many women have a problem with violent and degrading porn, they are not going to keep watching the stuff until they start to enjoy it on some subconscious level. they will either find porn that doesn't offend them, or give up on it entirely.

[20 jazz funk greats]

Does the fact that some men have a cuckold fetish make it okay for a wife to cheat on her husband?

if he encourages his wife to have sex with other people and she agrees that this is a good idea, and they decide to make this part of their sex life, what is not okay?
if they have discussed this and outlined rules for it, and both of them stick to said rules, how is that cheating?
he is all hurrr hurr my wife is hot hurr and she is all "sexually liberated" and such.
it's a lifestyle. not one i approve of (in fact i find it kind of repulsive) but nevertheless...