Topic: patriotism/nationalism (Read 30819 times)

fatty · « **on:** 24 Jul 2008, 06:07 »

I think I made a thread along these lines before, but I think this one follows a slightly different track, and hopefully leads to different discussions.

I was in the countryside and wondering how I should feel about it. I've heard about the Man from Snowy River and all the kind of cultural reference and signifcance this place has, but I have only really encountered it a few times as a teenager. This let me think about all the other australian landscapes and natural wonders that I've always known but never seen.

Basically, being born in Australia and raised here, I am wondering how I should feel about my homeland. Am I attached to it? Am I attached to it because it's Australian and it's part of my national pride? And how far does it extend. Do I feel a sense of kinship with all Australians, and attachment to all Australian landscapes. I'm not really one for patriotism, I think it's lost some of it's shine for a lot of people now. I won't deny that I love Australia as a country, I love the people and the culture, I love sydney as a city and my home.

What do you think is nationalism, how do you feel about it?
Is nationalism outdated?

Are you attached to the place you were brought up/homeland?

My dad spent his first 18 years in Vietnam, but the last 30 years here. Some would say he'd probably consider vietnam his homeland, and feel a sense of national affiliation to it. But to be fair, the Vietnam he was brought up in before the war was not the one that existed after. And by ethnicity, he is chinese, and ethnic Vietnamese always regarded him as a different type to them. But he's lived in Australia longer than he's lived there, would support Australia over Vietnam in sport etc. How is it for people who have lived in multiple countries or have citizenship in more than one country?

*Sorry if it feels like I'm thread flooding, I start uni next week, might as well get my thoughts out now while I have time! I am just writing about what interests me and things I want to hear about from other perspectives.

CamusCanDo · « **Reply #1 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 06:39 »

I live in New Zealand, I feel very mehh about this. Like you I love my country, but I wouldn't say I'm batshit insane for it.

Jimmy the Squid · « **Reply #2 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 06:58 »

I wouldn't even go that far. I don't love Australia, or the place I was born (which is still Australia). I like it. I'm happy that there aren't any wars here and that the chances of me being shot are significantly lower here than other places but I honestly feel no sense of pride or loyalty to the country. It could have something to do with the fact that while, yes, I was born here both my mother and my father are refugees from Sri Lanka and Hungary respectively which means that at the schools I went to I wasn't seen as Australian but because my family has tried very hard to fit in (to the point of changing the family name so that morons can pronounce it properly, though they still can't) I don't have much of those cultures either. As such I see patriotism/nationalism as really pretty dumb as it seems mostly reserved for either stupid or horrendously uneducated and openly anti-intellectual people. I especially don't see why people get so worked up over where their ancestors are from when they were born somewhere else and have, most of the time, not even been to the place in question; they just mimic their parents over and over again until they fool themselves into believing that they actually care about a place they have never been and wouldn't be accepted into were they to go (that's probably not the case a lot of the time but I know people who have gone to where there parents are from and they were treated as total outsiders because they are not actually from there).

negative creep · « **Reply #3 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 07:02 »

Personally, I believe that nationalism is a reason for quite a lot of bad things that happened throughout history and continue to happen even today. I think that it is necessary for us, as mankind, to take what i believe to be an important step inthe development of civilisation, and finally leave nationalism behind.

Other than that, I probably won't say anything here. I also think that this is a pretty dangerous topic.

waterloosunset · « **Reply #4 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 07:07 »

I like the UK, I'm proud to be British and proud of her achievements, and if there was a major war, I'd probably fight for my country. But I'm not blindingly patriotic, I don't believe in "My country right and wrong", am aware of problems and mistakes made by the UK, have no xenophobia and recognise the value of other countries. I have dual nationality with America as well, but feel nothing for it, no loyalty, exactly the same as I feel about Canada, or Denmark, or Latvia.

That said, patriotism can be quite amusing, especially in the case of some Americans who have such a blinkered view of the rest of the world, and feel no need to see or learn anything about other countries.

jhocking · « **Reply #5 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 07:16 »

Well I see an important distinction between patriotism and nationalism:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriotism

The difference is rather subtle. Basically, nationalism is a sort of indoctrinated territorial behavior. In it's milder forms (ie. nations have a right to exist) I think nationalism is a good thing really, but in it's more extreme forms nationalism often amounts to bigotry (eg. thinly veiled racism.) In all cases, the exclusionary aspects of nationalism don't sit well with me. For example, for all of it's justifications and the very real need to manage the flow of immigrants, the border fence is about cementing the distinction between "us" and "them." How ironic when the United States itself only exists because of land grabs that had nothing to do with any nationalist claims.

Patriotism however doesn't necessarily go along with ownership over territory. Patriotism is about cultural pride, and loving the ideals of your country. Patriotism is an attachment to people and ideas, whereas nationalism is about who owns what. To really understand the distinction, think about the Revolutionary War; George Washington was about as patriotic as you can get, and yet he was patriotic toward a country that didn't even exist yet.

While I don't experience much nationalism, I do consider myself fairly patriotic. I cherish the values of this country, feel pride in the achievements of my countrymen, and consider myself an American; I love to travel around the country and see the beauty of it, but I feel no ownership over any of these places. I think incidentally these distinctions are where all the "if you hate this country then move" kinda stuff misses the mark. I love my country, I just don't feel much attachment to any particular piece of dirt.

Whether or not these attitudes are because I was born in another country and lived overseas for most of my childhood is an open question, but obviously any person's upbringing has a massive effect on their outlook.

At that, I suppose it is interesting to consider the notion of nationalism in the context of my birthplace of Korea, a country artificially divided by extreme differences in political ideology. I mean, how much respect can you have for the idea of national borders when your own borders were drawn up within the last 60 years? And whatever your feelings about national borders, aren't you still a patriot if you feel pride in your country?

This also brings up a territorial dispute currently going on between South Korea and Japan. Both nations claim ownership of the tiny island of Dokto:
http://son-of-gadfly-on-the-wall.blogspot.com/2008/07/my-response-to-south-korean-perspective.html

I'm not sure what exactly this dispute suggests, but it is certainly relevant.

imapiratearg · « **Reply #6 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 07:20 »

I talk about leaving the country fairly regularly, if that gives you any idea of how patriotic I am. Blind patriotism also makes me want to vomit.

blankfile · « **Reply #7 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 07:28 »

Quote from: negative creep on 24 Jul 2008, 07:02

Personally, I believe that nationalism is a reason for quite a lot of bad things that happened throughout history and continue to happen even today. I think that it is necessary for us, as mankind, to take what i believe to be an important step inthe development of civilisation, and finally leave nationalism behind.

Other than that, I probably won't say anything here. I also think that this is a pretty dangerous topic.

Negative creep stole my words. Just to add a slight bit more, i have started a bit of a game wrapped around this topic. Whenever someone ask me where i live, where i'm from, or from which country i am a citizen of, my first answer is now always "I'm a citizen of the world, i live wherever i want to". Usually, the standard reaction to that is nervous laughter, followed by a very tense silence. And the silence continues when they realize i am not even joking about it.

But yeah, usually i would try to avoid the subject, people tend to dislike what i have to say this matter.

jhocking · « **Reply #8 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 07:35 »

I like to lead people on a wild goose chase when they ask where I'm from. I suppose it's a little anti-social, but I get a kick out of how I can answer with a different place each time they attempt to clarify the question.

Where were you born? South Korea.
Where did you grow up? Connecticut.
Where do you live? Chicago.

Lines · « **Reply #9 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 07:57 »

There are very few things that I find good about nationalism/patriotism and those few things all happened through the arts. But that's it, really

I am not very patriotic and I'm not nationalistic at all. I like living in America most of the time, but I'm rather upset with how this country goes about doing things and how it's obsessed with being #1. I don't really have much to say on this subject, because I'm just too apathetic about it. The only thing I really like about my country is traveling to places I haven't been.

(Edit because I got the two backwards.)

fatty · « **Reply #10 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 08:08 »

What do you say when people say 'Where are you from?'. I don't get that one...

RE Patriotism vs Nationalism: See, I'd say that I'm attached to Australia, or at least Sydney. I am attached to Australian culture, and don't like to see it wronged or mis-interpreted/represented. But yeah as far as nationalism, I don't think it's as clear.

What I think is, that nationalism is very much the cause of a lot of wars and discrimination, but I sometimes feel like it is something ingrained in humans. The idea of their identity and ownership of their shared 'homeland'. I guess that falls more in patriotism, I definitely feel that it is natural for people to feel connected to a community, land or culture. But as much as I want nationalism in a formal sense to be a thing of the past, I feel like ownership is something that people never really want to let go of.

Realistically, I do see groups like the EU taking a stronger connecting role in diminishing the idea of individual nations at least in politics and immigration. I think nations are more and more becoming mixed and politically more closely tied with international connections and relations. People are also becoming much more diverse, having lived in or having family background in a number of countries. The above situation for Joe will be taken for granted, instead of simply mildly unusual and confusing.

jhocking · « **Reply #11 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 08:30 »

Quote from: fatty on 24 Jul 2008, 08:08

What do you say when people say 'Where are you from?'

"Well it depends what you mean by 'from.' I've moved around a lot."

Incidentally, my tendency to answer "well it's relative" is one of the three main things people find annoying about conversing with me.

mat_mantra · « **Reply #12 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 09:15 »

I just don't like how Nationalism is used to define people. Being an American overseas, and military to boot, i catch a lot of flack because i'm immediately filed into "Dumb Soldier Spreading Dumb Americanism In OUR Country". It's really frustrating trying to talk to people over here when you can tell that they're holding every one of my country's shortcomings against me. I joined the military because it would get me working in the medical field right away, and i love my job, helping people. It's amazing seeing some of the work we do, but it's also sad that what gets highlighted is the invasion and all the turmoil surrounding it.

jhocking · « **Reply #13 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 10:38 »

Quote from: jhocking on 24 Jul 2008, 07:16

This also brings up a territorial dispute currently going on between South Korea and Japan. Both nations claim ownership of the tiny island of Dokto

While looking up more about Dokto I found this old blog entry from a GI in Korea:
http://rokdrop.com/2005/05/27/gi-korea-does-dokto/

It makes for great reading, heh. I especially like his description of the ferry ride. Note that "ajumma" is Korean for "elder woman," and "ajushi" is "elder man."

mat_mantra · « **Reply #14 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 11:42 »

Seeing as how i'm avoiding assignment to korea like the plague, but get the feeling i'll end up there anyway, i'll keep that little boat trip in mind. Partying with a bunch of overzealous senior citizens sounds like fun

a pack of wolves · « **Reply #15 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 12:16 »

Quote from: negative creep on 24 Jul 2008, 07:02

Personally, I believe that nationalism is a reason for quite a lot of bad things that happened throughout history and continue to happen even today. I think that it is necessary for us, as mankind, to take what i believe to be an important step inthe development of civilisation, and finally leave nationalism behind.

I agree with this. The idea that I'm somehow different to one person and fundamentally the same as another because of which side of an imaginary line on a map drawn up by someone I would no doubt have detested and certainly have nothing in common with hundreds of years ago is utterly bizarre to me. I have an emotional connection to certain places I've lived in and think of as home but I definitely have no emotional connection to the political entity known as the UK, or England, or Yorkshire. I also particularly hate the idea that I have some kind of right to prevent people freely moving through and/or settling in this same place because of an accident of birth. I have no more right to be here than anyone else.

Neither do I have any emotional connection to being English as some sort of national grouping. English history and identity is no more my history than French or Spanish history. In fact, events like Paris '68 and the Spanish civil war seem much more part of some kind of personal history to me than many significant events in England. I'd fight my country, but I'd never fight for it.

Vendetagainst · « **Reply #16 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 13:26 »

I love my city of Chicago and I love America. I love the history and the culture, and I love what it stands for. I do NOT love the government, and I believe that that is a part of true American patriotism. We are meant to be distrustful of our government and that is why we have the constitutional right to impeach and imprison our presidents. I support nationalism as something people should embrace... to a point. People should invest themselves in the history of their country as much as possible, but that does not mean they should love their country for what it is. Rather, I think that people should love their country for its potential as much as anything, because while empires will rise and fall as long as you love your country for what it may become it is going to have a brighter future entirely because of that hope.

*edit*
Apologies for making that sound so... strange? I am terrible at articulating things.

mooface · « **Reply #17 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 13:31 »

i actually somehow feel more italian than american. i mean, even though i'm half-italian i grew up in the states and have only been living in italy for about 3 years. i don't even speak italian nearly as well as i speak english, and i have difficulty reading and writing it. i was talking to a few people who are similar to me (either half american but grew up in italy or half italian but gew up in the states). we all commented on how when we are in italy and people ask us where we're from we say "america", but when we're in the states we often refer to ourselves as italian. but honestly, despite all this, i feel very self consciously italian (in my mentality) in america, but i rarely, if ever, feel really "american" when i'm in italy.

with that being said, i really am not incredibly patriotic or nationalistic over either of these countries. sometimes i get super-patriotic over italy and its soccer team and how it's the best country ever, but i am mostly joking (except for the soccer part). i really appreciate the good things about both of them, and also quick to criticize their weaknesses. i don't feel any strong ties to my hometown (i could never imagine myself moving back and living there for the rest of my life), but i also find it difficult to imagine living in rome forever. i feel pretty homeless.

then there's that random bahraini chunk thrown in. i'm technically just as bahraini as i am italian, but i've been almost completely alienated from my mother's culture. but that's a whole other issue i'm not going to delve into!

basically: discussions like these just reinforce my sentiment that race, ethnicity & citizenship are pretty useless ways to define people. as the world becomes more globalized there are more and more people who are like me and who become such a random mix of things that no set label (in terms of their background or home country) can really apply.

numb3rb0y · « **Reply #18 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 13:55 »

I've always felt that nationalism was a bit of a silly, irrational concept, to be honest. I've lived my entire life thus far, but I don't love this country; hell, I don't even like it, given my intention to emigrate as soon as I'm done with university, and why would I? I didn't choose to be British. I don't understand why someone would feel proud of the fact that they happened to be born on one specific bit of land over another. You can certainly love your culture, which ties into your nation in some instances, but the notion that you should or you must is an outdated, irrational concept as far as I can tell, and it's been used to justify many great evils over the years. I'm a human being; anything else are just completely arbitrary distinctions that I want no part of.

morca007 · « **Reply #19 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 14:20 »

I think they are both pretty irrational concepts, and I do not understand them.

parm · « **Reply #20 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 14:29 »

I can't say as I'm particularly proud to be British, or proud of Britain at the moment. I do feel a small amount of pride in Europe and in being European, though.

Vendetagainst · « **Reply #21 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 14:55 »

Urgh, ok.

I never asked to be American, being born here was not special. But my ancestors did choose to come here--From Poland, Italy, Britain, and all over the fucking place. And I exist because of outrageously improbable occurrences spread out over hundreds of years that slowly developed the relationships and culture that made me possible. I should take pride in my country because I am a product of it. I have been ashamed of my government more than once, but a country is led by its people and not its government. That a person should be obligated to be a nationalist is a ridiculous belief, but people SHOULD understand how deeply their culture has affected who they are. People should not be judged by where they are from and don't quote me as saying anything to the contrary, but there is a very real influence there.

And if I didn't live in Chicago I would be missing out on some seriously delicious food.

KharBevNor · « **Reply #22 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 15:27 »

I feel a connection to the people and landscape and culture of where I was born (and have lived my whole life), but not to the country or flags or anything, as those are essentially meaningless and artificial constructs. I feel more patriotic, perhaps even nationalistic feelings, for the specific place where I have lived most my life, the Isle of Wight. I think perhaps if the Isle of Wight was its own country (and I think it should be) I would be far more patriotic. VECTIS FOR THE VECTIANS!

I have to say that I find nationalism in particular for places like America and Australia very absurd, unless you happen to be a native american or an aboriginie. I don't think I need to dip into that opinion anymore.

Vendetagainst · « **Reply #23 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 15:37 »

I get what you're saying about The Native Americans and Aborigines and it's not a bad point, but I can't agree with it because (as I'm sure is also the case in Australia) we have deep roots despite being young countries.

inflatable_slide · « **Reply #24 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 15:43 »

being a proud irish person is kinda sometrhing thats beaten into you, figuratively speaking of course. if youre not rpoud to be irish, its seen as being a bit backwards about going forwards like.

im from cork, which is a whole other story, id always say " im from cork" before saying im irish, and im not all that into this "irish by birth cork by the grace of god" shite... im only like that with all ireland finals in hurling and gaelic football and such... i get really riled up, its kinda embarrassing!

i dunno, i think it all depends on youre upbringing and exposure to this nationalism and patriotism stuff, much like other things in life!

ViolentDove · « **Reply #25 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 15:47 »

Quote from: fatty on 24 Jul 2008, 08:08

What do you say when people say 'Where are you from?'. I don't get that one...

This question is a bit funny. In some places (Australia- probably others?) it's almost seen as borderline offensive, as there is an assumption that the person asking the question is making the assumption that "you're not from here", and that this is a bad thing.

But in other places, some countries in Europe for example, it's pretty much the second most frequently asked question, more like friendly small-talk. And not just to tourists- also asked by and to people from the same country.

Vendetagainst · « **Reply #26 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 15:50 »

Quote from: Anyways on 24 Jul 2008, 15:39

You haven't got castles outside of Disneyland, dude. Try again.

I don't think I'm seeing your point

StaedlerMars · « **Reply #27 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 16:03 »

So, I've never lived in one country consistently, so maybe that's why i'm not nationalistic, or patriotic for that matter.

However, since I am Belgian, and Belgium does get given a lot of shit (most recent example is 'In Bruges') I do tend to stand up for Belgium, but this is more defensive than offensive. However, when I'm in Belgium I take the same attitude towards the US.

I don't feel at all attached to it though. I feel attached to the community I live in. In Belgium I feel like I'm from Ghent. In the US I feel like a New Yorker. I feel a lot more connected and proud of a place that I visit/see regularly. So I tend to associate myself with cities rather than countries . In my head this also makes more sense.

I've had this conversation recently with some people. In the modern world, it would probably make more sense to return to City States than to Nation States. Take a look at Singapore, or Hong Kong until recently. I'm sure there's a lot that can go wrong, but economically, it makes a lot more sense to have a global body of laws and let cities conduct their own business (however, I'm not an economist, so feel free to correct me here).

Oli · « **Reply #28 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 16:13 »

I'm from a wee village on the west coast of Scotland and I go to university/spend virtually all my time in Glasgow. I feel a good connection to both these places, but I do not really give a shite about being Scottish. I really think that nationalism is, by definiton, divisionary. I am very much of the opinion that no matter where you are from you can either be a cunt or not a cunt, and I'll be glad to chat to you if you're not.

I also do not understand people that proudly exclaim that X was invented where they are from as if they had anything to do with it's invention whatsoever.

ViolentDove · « **Reply #29 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 16:37 »

Fuck you*, an Australian invented the Goon Bag!

It fulfills multiple functions, being a dispenser of low-quality alcohol, a pillow, and a flotation device. It has also been noted for its use a decorative bauble.

*Not really, of course, I think you're lovely.

Vendetagainst · « **Reply #30 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 16:59 »

And an American created the segway, and I cannot have pride in that

Hat · « **Reply #31 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 17:05 »

I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with nationalism or patriotism in their most simple forms. It's a natural human reaction to form social clumps, and while we, the proud denizens of the internet have access to a world of people, many people don't, and the condescending attitude that is fairly common on the internet of "patriotism and nationalism are a waste of time" is something I find kind of amusing. The fact that it has been used an excuse for atrocities doesn't necessarily mean we should attempt to abolish it altogether, because we are capable of atrocities for whatever reasons, but the move towards global communication is a good step forward with people identifying themselves based on more fundamental aspects of what they are, rather than an arbitrary point where they were born.

With that said, I don't consider place of birth to be any less arbitrary than a lot of other things we identify with, since we are always to a large extent, products of our environment. While a lot of you might resent the determinism of this, I just don't think it makes sense to say "I didn't have a choice as to where I was born" when its so hard to tell exactly what aspects of my personality I actually have a choice in.

Vendetagainst · « **Reply #32 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 17:42 »

well I'm sorry but to say that our pride comes only from being taught is fallacious unless you apply it to all pride.

Perhaps the word "roots" is erroneous as it implies a depth of origin, but American culture is certainly something unique and complex (don't be confused by the mainstream, which is, of course, not.)

Oli · « **Reply #33 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 17:45 »

How is feeling a connection with went on thousands of years ago any more legitimate than feeling a connection with what happened 300 years ago?

jhocking · « **Reply #34 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 17:56 »

Quote from: ViolentDove on 24 Jul 2008, 15:47

This question is a bit funny. In some places (Australia- probably others?) it's almost seen as borderline offensive, as there is an assumption that the person asking the question is making the assumption that "you're not from here", and that this is a bad thing.

Oh, I didn't realize there was a cultural difference here. In the US that's a perfectly normal question; especially every place I've ever been (big cities mostly) most everyone originated in some other state and moved later in life, so in intensity the question is the equivalent of "what do you do?"

As violent dove said, it's small talk. It just happens that I don't have an easy answer like most people.

Quote from: Oli on 24 Jul 2008, 16:13

I also do not understand people that proudly exclaim that X was invented where they are from as if they had anything to do with it's invention whatsoever.

How about sports fans who go on about how "we won!"

Vendetagainst · « **Reply #35 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 18:21 »

Honestly I never thought of the Pledge of Allegiance as strange until you mentioned it just now

no, it doesn't make you a terrible person, it's just a matter of perspective. Beliefs are only wrong when you deem them universal truths.

Oli · « **Reply #36 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 18:30 »

Quote from: jhocking on 24 Jul 2008, 17:56

Quote from: Oli on 24 Jul 2008, 16:13
I also do not understand people that proudly exclaim that X was invented where they are from as if they had anything to do with it's invention whatsoever.

How about sports fans who go on about how "we won!"

I think that that is a bit different as supporters are an integeral part of any sporting team and are invested in the outcome prior to it happening. It's a bit like Henry Bell's mum being proud of the steamboat against me being proud of living near to where the steamboat was invented.

KharBevNor · « **Reply #37 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 18:35 »

Who invented/won what is a pretty fun game because generally Britain wins.

jhocking · « **Reply #38 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 18:36 »

While your argument makes sense, I still choose to believe that sports fans are ridiculous.

Vendetagainst · « **Reply #39 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 18:45 »

@jhockings
Like most things in society it's just part of the tribal mentality.

Quote from: KharBevNor on 24 Jul 2008, 18:35

Who invented/won what is a pretty fun game because generally Britain wins.

Americans have skyscrapers though!

Oli · « **Reply #40 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 18:49 »

We're done here.

ViolentDove · « **Reply #41 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 18:50 »

We get inventions drilled into us at school, possibly to make up for the fact that we have bugger-all else to feel nationalistic about (except sporting heroes, explorers, and the occasional massacre). Apparently the stump-jump plow (what the fuck, guys) and the hills hoist (it's a clothesline) are meant to fill us to the brim with love and pride for our country.

That said, an Australian had a hand in the development of Penicillin... definitely a great thing, but I take no national pride in it whatsoever. I see this more as a reason why collaborative science is great- initially discovered by a Scotsman, further developed by an Australian, and English, Scottish and Americans all had a hand in it's eventual road to a purified, mass-produced drug.

Vendetagainst · « **Reply #42 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 18:53 »

*ahem*
"the traditional definition of a skyscraper began with the "first skyscraper", a steel-framed ten story building. Chicago's now demolished ten story steel-framed Home Insurance Building (1885) is generally accepted as the "first skyscraper".

Oli · « **Reply #43 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 18:54 »

The point wasn't we had skyscrapers first.

The point was castles.

Johnny C · « **Reply #44 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 19:06 »

Other cultures did castles and palaces earlier, the Brits just added useless shit to them.

ViolentDove · « **Reply #45 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 19:11 »

I'd take gothic/neo-gothic and various islamic styles of architecture over all the skyscrapers in the world, but that's just me. Personally, I think these styles produced some of the most beautiful buildings in the world. Modern skyscrapers don't even come close.

Der Golem · « **Reply #46 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 19:15 »

I am very proud of my heritage and my nationality. That does not mean I am proud of the government here, or that I think being Icelandic makes you better than someone who is not. There are some really terrible people here too.

I feel very attached to the city I live in, Reykjavík, and am fascinated by the history of my country (oldest parliament in the world, forced into christianity by law, etc.), as well as the folklore and sagas (a lot of Icelandic folklore was written down around 1200-1300, and has survived unchanged since. It is interesting to read, both because of the stories themselves, and to see how little the language has actually changed in that time).

I also think I percieve nationality as more of an absolute than most of you do. A lot of you talk about not believing in borders, have lived in many countries, or live in Australia and America. I have lived my entire life on a small, isolated island and have my own language that only 300.000 people speak. I understand that in most other places nationality is more ambiguous, but here pretty much everyone is 100% Icelandic. In fact, being from somewhere else, even if you have lived here for most of your life is pretty novel. Also, because of this extreme seperation between Icelanders and everyone else, racism, especially against the Polish and Thai (we have a lot of immigrants from these countries here) is pretty much socially accepted. It kind of wierds me out actually, how a conversation can turn into talking shit about an entire nation and I am in a minority that thinks that is not cool.

Vendetagainst · « **Reply #47 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 20:00 »

Castles are indeed rad.

Quote from: ViolentDove on 24 Jul 2008, 19:11

I'd take gothic/neo-gothic and various islamic styles of architecture over all the skyscrapers in the world, but that's just me. Personally, I think these styles produced some of the most beautiful buildings in the world. Modern skyscrapers don't even come close.

squawk · « **Reply #48 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 20:04 »

skyscrapers are pretty okay

Vendetagainst · « **Reply #49 on:** 24 Jul 2008, 20:08 »

Rush Limbaugh is sorta misogynistic.

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Author Topic: patriotism/nationalism (Read 30819 times)

blankfile

mat_mantra

mat_mantra

mooface

numb3rb0y

inflatable_slide