Topic: patriotism/nationalism (Read 30794 times)

Ozymandias · « **Reply #100 on:** 31 Jul 2008, 23:09 »

Man. The whole response to that that "I didn't do anything wrong personally, the government shouldn't have apologized." basically made me think that Australia was full of dicks, except for the prime minister who was finally a big enough dude to not be a dick about it. I mean, given the enormity of the dicklishness that the initial act was, you don't consider it to be the same trend of dickery to say "I don't support any government who admits that that was a dickhole move and apologizes?"

Dicks.

est · « **Reply #101 on:** 31 Jul 2008, 23:09 »

Caspian, it's not about apologising for something that we ourselves have done, but the government admitting that in the past it acted in a way that was Not Very Nice. When Rudd said sorry he wasn't saying it on a personal level, he was acting on behalf of the government. There has been no governmental admission of this in the past, it has been more like "oh, get over it", which is a remarkably insensitive and damaging position to take.

Caspian · « **Reply #102 on:** 31 Jul 2008, 23:20 »

Quote

Starting the Apology - From Paul Keating

We non-Aboriginal Australians should perhaps remind ourselves that Australia once reached out for us. Didn't Australia provide opportunity and care for the dispossessed Irish? The poor of Britain? The refugees from war and famine and persecution in the countries of Europe and Asia? Isn't it reasonable to say that if we can build a prosperous and remarkably harmonious multicultural society in Australia, surely we can find just solutions to the problems which beset the first Australians - the people to whom the most injustice has been done.

And, as I say, the starting point might be to recognise that the problem starts with us non-Aboriginal Australians. It begins, I think, with the act of recognition. Recognition that it was we who did the dispossessing. We took the traditional lands and smashed the traditional way of life. We brought the disasters. The alcohol. We committed the murders. We took the children from their mothers. We practised discrimination and exclusion.

It was our ignorance and our prejudice. And our failure to imagine these things being done to us. With some noble exceptions, we failed to make the most basic human response and enter into their hearts and minds. We failed to ask - how would I feel if this were done to me? As a consequence, we failed to see that what we were doing degraded all of us.

[Part of Prime Minister Paul Keating's speech at Redfern, December 1992]

gospel · « **Reply #103 on:** 31 Jul 2008, 23:42 »

@OP

I think Nationalism in the sense of nation-states is still a solid concept. There are, obviously, lines that are blurred like PLO, terrorists, etc. But, in the end, every Nation-State looks out for their own and teaches their own rhetoric. Every, every country indoctrinates with the notion that they are the best nation, have done things the best, etc. Every textbook is written for their own countries. America, my fatherland, is guilty of thi--but is not exclusive by a long shot. So, no, it's pretty alive.

I think what a lot of people are confusing for racism is actually just xenophobia. For example, take the French mockery that's pretty prevalent here. I don't think people are saying people of French decent are innately inferior, but are simply making comments--albeit ignorant--on the French culture. If there was a term for culturaist I'd use that.

To be honest, America does pretty well as far as race goes. It's bad, yes. But, our aspirations are pretty high too. Racism is everywhere, in every country, and I'll ROFL at you if you think that there's any innocent, color-blind countries. This doesn't mean, though, we shouldn't aspire to be better.

I am of Korean (if you ask which one I'll stab you) decent. This is what I consider to be my motherland. Being bi-cultural has given me a pretty unique perspective on things. I can see the flaws in both cultures, and I see a lot in my mother country. Aside from the work ethic, and sympathy for the years of devastation Korea has gone through, I"m honestly pretty ashamed. I'm proud that it coudl go from the second lowest GDP int he world to a Top 10 country. But, the social and welfare issues are 50-years behind.

est · « **Reply #104 on:** 31 Jul 2008, 23:44 »

I admit that I didn't know Keating had given an apology, but how does that change the underlying intent of Rudd's apology? I haven't ever heard anything about Keating's speech, despite having a mother who works pretty closely with local indigenous community groups. I am not sure it had the same effect that Rudd's speech was intended to have. Also, the years of Liberal govt between Keating's speech and Rudd's speech had basically given the finger to indigenous people (well, all Australians really, but Howard's attitude toward the stolen generation really was quite shit) which would have wiped out whatever gains the Keating apology made.

I mean, if you want to bring shit like that up Hawke also tried his hand at the whole reconciliation bit but it was a rather half-hearted attempt, leaving many indigenous people feeling exploited by the whole affair.

Oh also, please note that I am not saying that Rudd's latest effort isn't merely a political play. Only time will be able to show if he's being genuine or not, unfortunately.

est · « **Reply #105 on:** 31 Jul 2008, 23:54 »

Also also: despite Howard's best efforts Australia remains a Pretty Cool Place to live, especially when compared to some other places. For example, I wouldn't want to live in China. I am pretty sure I would only live in certain parts of the US and England. I definitely wouldn't want to live in say, Zimbabwe.

Australia is pretty ace.

Caspian · « **Reply #106 on:** 01 Aug 2008, 01:56 »

Quote from: est on 31 Jul 2008, 23:54

Also also: despite Howard's best efforts Australia remains a Pretty Cool Place to live, especially when compared to some other places. For example, I wouldn't want to live in China. I am pretty sure I would only live in certain parts of the US and England. I definitely wouldn't want to live in say, Zimbabwe.

Australia is pretty ace.

awww, I liked Howard (and you certainly can't argue that Australia has gone places over the last 10 years or so). At the very least, his epic farewell speech totally showed everyone just how sweet a guy he was. No, I think the howard years were pretty good, and while he could've brushed up his attitude over a few things overall he was a solid dude. There were reasons he got elected 4 times in a row.

Out of curiousity, est (for some reason I keep on thinking you're inlander- guess you australian mods are quite alike) how well travelled are you? Perhaps it's just me but I find that the more I've travelled, the more I've realised just how awesome Australia is.

elcapitan · « **Reply #107 on:** 01 Aug 2008, 05:56 »

Quote from: Caspian on 01 Aug 2008, 01:56

awww, I liked Howard (and you certainly can't argue that Australia has gone places over the last 10 years or so).

You bet. It's gone from being an egalitarian, inclusive, welcoming society to a place where we are encouraged to be suspicious of our neighbours (especially if they're wearing turbans or eat strange food), a place that is more than happy to invade other places for no real reason (as long as the Yanks OK it first), a place where it's OK for bosses to summarily fire their workers for no reason whatsoever (as long as they're employing less than a hundred people), and a place where the lives of 353 asylum seekers are disposable (but worth their weight in gold as an election stunt).

Oh, but the economy got better. Funny thing, so did the economy in much of the rest of the world. Also, something called "globalisation" really came into play. But surely no connection there, it was all due to Howard. Hooray for him.

Basically the only thing that stopped Australia going totally to shit is the inherent awesomeness of the place, and I honestly think that if the Libs had won again even that may have dissipated like frost in the sunshine.

Quote

At the very least, his epic farewell speech totally showed everyone just how sweet a guy he was. No, I think the howard years were pretty good, and while he could've brushed up his attitude over a few things overall he was a solid dude. There were reasons he got elected 4 times in a row.

Howard? Sweet? What planet are you living on? Brilliant politician, yes. Conniving bastard, yes. Pathetic power-walking, sporting-hero-worshipping jingoist, sure. But sweet? Away tae fuck.

As for reasons he got elected four times in a row: they were called the "Aussie battlers", remember them? The little people who were foolish and/or naive enough to fall for his appeals to crass xenophobia and historical revisionism. The ones who Howard promptly shafted with Workchoices as soon as he could get it through the Senate? They were the reason he got elected four times in a row, and thank fuck, they were the reason there wasn't a fifth.

Finally, there's a fairly decent chance that I'm more travelled than you, and the more I see of the world, the more I realise how precious Australia is and how much we need to hang on to it. We are seriously in danger of going down the same tubes as the US - a great place originally with a fantastic ethos, until the power-mongers took over and shat all over the dreams of the populace.

jhocking · « **Reply #108 on:** 01 Aug 2008, 07:34 »

Quote from: gospel on 31 Jul 2008, 23:42

I am of Korean (if you ask which one I'll stab you) decent.

Are you from West Korea?

Liz · « **Reply #109 on:** 01 Aug 2008, 09:11 »

Joe is from East Korea.

He is a tough guy.

Caspian · « **Reply #110 on:** 01 Aug 2008, 09:38 »

Quote from: elcapitan on 01 Aug 2008, 05:56

You bet. It's gone from being an egalitarian, inclusive, welcoming society to a place where we are encouraged to be suspicious of our neighbours (especially if they're wearing turbans or eat strange food),

Ahahaha, are you serious? First, that's a massive (massive!) exaggeration- tampa was a massive mess, obviously, but I'm curious as to what other proof you have that Howard introduced a 'culture of fear' or what have you. Second, do you honestly think that post 9/11, labour would've approached security any different? People got more suspicious after 9/11 - and would have regardless of who was in charge.

Quote

As for reasons he got elected four times in a row: they were called the "Aussie battlers", remember them? The little people who were foolish and/or naive enough to fall for his appeals to crass xenophobia and historical revisionism.

You lefties (generalisations, woo!!) are terrible at this! The whole "hah, they were just too foolish to see the truth, poor working class people" line, again. I don't really know what to say to this, and I'm sure a lot of swearing won't go down too well. I think I'll just leave that line up there so it can embarrass you.

Quote

Finally, there's a fairly decent chance that I'm more travelled than you, and the more I see of the world, the more I realise how precious Australia is and how much we need to hang on to it. We are seriously in danger of going down the same tubes as the US - a great place originally with a fantastic ethos, until the power-mongers took over and shat all over the dreams of the populace.

Agreed with your final point, but don't assume that I haven't been too quite a few places. It's odd how I end up arguing for howard when in some ways I'm quite the communist when it comes to economics (but probably not so with worker's right). It seems that this forum board in particular brings out the contrarian (if that's even a word) in me.

Finally, by "sweet guy" I certainly didn't mean cute and cuddly. I assumed it was obvious I meant something along the lines of "cool dude".

Vendetagainst · « **Reply #111 on:** 01 Aug 2008, 12:58 »

I don't know why, but I am fascinated by this list:
Wikipedia's Democracy Index

I think there should be a global competition to see who can improve their scores the most. Yes? Yes.

RedLion · « **Reply #112 on:** 01 Aug 2008, 13:33 »

Oh, yeah, I forgot. I can never forgive my country for being the only nation that has ever used the atomic bomb--TWICE--both times on areas of high and dense civilian population with little to no military value, then having the audacity to spent the next 60 years telling anyone it doesn't like that they can't be allowed to develop nuclear technology.

Most of the "bad" things America has done can be justified through some prism, but to me, this simply cannot be. History has shown that Japan had been looking for a way out, but wouldn't accept unconditional surrender because they feared the Emperor, whom they regarded as a living god, would be dethroned and/or killed. The U.S. refused to negotiate on the point, demanding full and complete surrender with no caveats. All they had to do was guarantee the emperor's safety, and it's likely that Japan would have surrendered. This is documented history. Instead, we killed hundreds of thousands of civilians. If anything begs an official apology, it's that.

Also: I'm not an Australian, and have never even been to Australia, but Howard always struck me as a supreme douche. He even looked like one. Just a kind of guy that, when you see him, you get that "douche" vibe.

Vendetagainst · « **Reply #113 on:** 01 Aug 2008, 13:37 »

I thought you were French

RedLion · « **Reply #114 on:** 01 Aug 2008, 13:45 »

Nope. American.

Although my ancestry is about 45% French, and I'm descended from Charlemagne.

Liz · « **Reply #115 on:** 01 Aug 2008, 13:47 »

Well aren't you special.

Vendetagainst · « **Reply #116 on:** 01 Aug 2008, 13:52 »

Quote from: RedLion on 01 Aug 2008, 13:45

Nope. American.

Although my ancestry is about 45% French, and I'm descended from Charlemagne.

I'm descended from Charlemagne too! So that makes us nominally related!

benji · « **Reply #117 on:** 01 Aug 2008, 13:56 »

If you think about it mathematically, it would be almost impossible to find someone alive today of European descent who wasn't descended from Charlemagne.

Vendetagainst · « **Reply #118 on:** 01 Aug 2008, 14:01 »

yes, but how many of them know they are?

snalin · « **Reply #119 on:** 01 Aug 2008, 14:08 »

Quote from: Eris on 31 Jul 2008, 18:27

We are trying to work about fixing what we did. Everyone is taught in high school (hell, probably primary school) about the Stolen Generations, so it's not as if we're ignoring it. This apology has taken a long time to come about, a lot longer than it should, but it's showing that we're willing to say we did something wrong. You lost respect for a country that did something wrong in the past? What about the British, do you have no respect for them because of all the "colonising" they did? What about Israel when the videos came out showing soldiers breaking children's arms? What about Germany and that whole holocaust thing?

I said I lost respect for Australia's history. It's great with the apology and all, but I'm reacting to the bunch of people saying that the apology wasn't needed. And Britain was a dick head nation in the past. And Israel was the worst idèa ever. The point here is that everyone can change. I never meant any offence, I just reacted to the whole "A free society that for the last few generations hasn't done anything particularly bad", since this lasted into the sixties. Sorry, let's get back on topic, shall we? My bad.

Quote from: RedLion on 01 Aug 2008, 13:33

Oh, yeah, I forgot. I can never forgive my country for being the only nation that has ever used the atomic bomb--TWICE--both times on areas of high and dense civilian population with little to no military value, then having the audacity to spent the next 60 years telling anyone it doesn't like that they can't be allowed to develop nuclear technology.

Well, since the American government was so bitchy about getting a complete surrender, this was the best thing they could come up with. If the war had gone on... But it was still not very fucking nice. I think nationalism was quite important on both sides. USA wanted revenge for Pearl Harbour. Unlimited revenge. And Japan was sure that any surrender would lead to a total destruction of their culture and traditions. These are both cases were nationalism was used by governments to excuse hundreds of thousands of deaths. (woho, a bit of topic!)

Ozymandias · « **Reply #120 on:** 01 Aug 2008, 14:28 »

Quote from: Vendetagainst on 01 Aug 2008, 14:01

yes, but how many of them know they are?

I imagine that there's about as many people that know they're descended from Charlemagne as there are that care about anyone being descended from Charlemagne.

benji · « **Reply #121 on:** 01 Aug 2008, 14:33 »

Anyone who's done the math is pretty darn sure. Also, if you think about the (probably false) statistic someone once gave me that 5% of all people are mistaken about who their father is, and project that backwards 40 or so generations, it becomes pretty likely that you're not descended from Charlemagne the way you think you are.

Oli · « **Reply #122 on:** 01 Aug 2008, 14:38 »

Who the fuck is Charlemagne?

Sounds like a dick.

RedLion · « **Reply #123 on:** 01 Aug 2008, 15:13 »

He pretty much was. But he ruled the Holy Roman Empire, which encompassed a large chunk of Europe. So that's cool.

Jimmy the Squid · « **Reply #124 on:** 01 Aug 2008, 16:29 »

Pah, who cares about which historical figure you are probably descended from? I used to give a damn that I'm probably related to Vlad the Impaler but I'm pretty sure heaps of people are related to him, as they are (and as am I) to Genghis Khan. It isn't that important because your distant ancestors in no practical way have any bearing on who you are.

Besides, it is much more interesting that I am possibly related to this guy

E. Spaceman · « **Reply #125 on:** 01 Aug 2008, 23:51 »

I honestly do not care about anyone's ascendace. This means that I've never given patriotism and nationalism any thought, since they seem incredibly absurd to me. How can anyone be proud of being born somewhere if you had no choice or merit in it? It would be like someone being proud of having skin of a certain colour, which is one of the stupidest things i have ever heard of.

jhocking · « **Reply #126 on:** 02 Aug 2008, 06:54 »

Did you know some of the atoms in your body used to be part of Shakespeare?

Don't you feel proud?

Vendetagainst · « **Reply #127 on:** 02 Aug 2008, 09:49 »

Quote from: Ozymandias on 01 Aug 2008, 14:28

Quote from: Vendetagainst on 01 Aug 2008, 14:01
yes, but how many of them know they are?

I imagine that there's about as many people that know they're descended from Charlemagne as there are that care about anyone being descended from Charlemagne.

my mom is really into genealogy is all, she almost cried when she found out she was descended from King Edward I.

est · « **Reply #128 on:** 03 Aug 2008, 04:01 »

Quote from: elcapitan on 01 Aug 2008, 05:56

(stuff that I agree with)

I don't really like arguing politics, because it is like pissing into the wind. I will say that I agree with James completely, and that I feel that even though Howard probably thought he was doing the right thing his version of "the right thing" is so different to mine that it looks to me like evil. I know the guy isn't evil and it's all just opposing viewpoints, etc. However, the reason I don't argue about this shit is because there's no way anyone will change a fundamental belief that I have, and likewise there isn't really any way for me to change someone else's opposing viewpoint.

By the way, that is one of the reasons why we have a rule here barring political debate (as well as religious debate).

snalin · « **Reply #129 on:** 03 Aug 2008, 08:29 »

Quote from: jhocking on 02 Aug 2008, 06:54

Did you know some of the atoms in your body used to be part of Shakespeare?

Don't you feel proud?

Someday you will die somehow and some thing's gonna steal your carbon! (hey hey hey!)

jhocking · « **Reply #130 on:** 03 Aug 2008, 17:46 »

NOOOOO not my carbons!!!

ruyi · « **Reply #131 on:** 03 Aug 2008, 18:10 »

Quote from: RedLion on 01 Aug 2008, 13:33

History has shown that Japan had been looking for a way out, but wouldn't accept unconditional surrender because they feared the Emperor, whom they regarded as a living god, would be dethroned and/or killed.

Uh, don't you mean the emperor wouldn't accept unconditional surrender because he cared about his own power over the well-being of his people?

And not that it contradicts what you're saying, but he didn't end up dethroned or killed, which I find unfortunate.

Ozymandias · « **Reply #132 on:** 03 Aug 2008, 22:37 »

It's worth noting that some have interpreted Japan's surrender as not even as a result of the atomic bombs. Their actions in the Nagasaki bombing (getting people to place themselves in the bombs way, in different positions and hiding in different areas to find out how best to survive more of them) certainly supports this. Rather, it was the entrance of the Soviets into the Pacific Theater that compelled Japan to surrender to America: they had no hope of survival either way, but at least the Americans would treat them better than the Russians.

Nodaisho · « **Reply #133 on:** 04 Aug 2008, 15:41 »

It seems I got into this thread a bit late, but I echo the thought that it really depends on your definition of patriotism and nationalism. I love what America could be, the American Dream, no, not getting rich and having the media pay constant attention to you, being allowed to live your life the way you see fit. I would hazard a guess that most of the immigrants to the U.S. throughout history since the 1600s came here for that, coming from persecution, hoping to find a place to live their life free of interference. If being a patriot is loving what your country should and could be, I am a patriot, if being a patriot is doing what you are told because someone said that it is patriotic, I am not a patriot, and despise those who are.

RedLion · « **Reply #134 on:** 04 Aug 2008, 21:03 »

Quote from: ruyi on 03 Aug 2008, 18:10

Uh, don't you mean the emperor wouldn't accept unconditional surrender because he cared about his own power over the well-being of his people?

And not that it contradicts what you're saying, but he didn't end up dethroned or killed, which I find unfortunate.

The emperor wasn't exactly in control of Japan. Obviously he knew what Japan was doing, but he wasn't really running the government. The Shogunate was. Hideki Tojo was the "leader" of Japan during WW2. The Emperor was already largely a figurehead, just one conveniently exploited by the nationalists.

E. Spaceman · « **Reply #135 on:** 04 Aug 2008, 23:10 »

... the shogunate?

While the official party line has always been that Showa was merely a figurehead, this was fostered by the occuation government so as to ot damage the imperal family and prevent any possible revolts, and to secure a basically puppet figurehead in the imperial family, despite the direct involvement of several members of the family in war crimes. There is also increasing debate and evidence that Showa had far more control and decision aking ability than it is normally assumed, the constitution explicitly placed the emperor as the head of the armed forces and he formed part of many decisions concerning the war effort. Furthermore, what can't really be argued is that he used his position fo anything beneficial, the best that could be said is that a man who had unmeasurable power and influence did not choose to act, and that for me merited him a place alongside Tojo.

RedLion · « **Reply #136 on:** 05 Aug 2008, 00:03 »

:Shrug: That's just what I've come to learn through school, what I've read, and in talking about it with my dad, who's a History major with an emphasis on Japanese history. But I could totally be wrong. (I'm not being snobby or sarcastic there. I really could be wrong.)

Leonidas · « **Reply #137 on:** 05 Aug 2008, 03:28 »

I find the idea of patriotism quite strange to be honest. Much the same as religion. Why should I feel patriotic simply because of the country I was born/raised in and the family/situation I was born into? It's nothing more than sheer chance. A one in billions chance even. I would rather look at things from the outside and refrain from getting drawn into the whole my country is better than your country argument.....

I was born and raised in Scotland, a country which is well known for being very patriotic and even has a percentage of the popualation who could be described as nationalistic (i.e. seeking independance from the UK). This patriotism is most obvious in certain members of the population after a few units of chemically enhanced alcohol and a late night viewing of Braveheart.

Personally I have no feelings of patriotism towards either the UK or to Scotland. It's hard to feel patriotic about a country you don't really like. One where the culture revolves around complaining about the weather, celebrity gossip, "lads mags", binge drinking, political correctness, and heavy state intrusion into your daily life.

Scotland itself is a small-minded, biggoted, miserable, angry little country. One where Catholics and Protestants still march up and down the high streets celebrating events that most of the congregation know nothing about, only that it winds up the other side (and that's what's important after all). Where a person's social life revolves around alcohol and those who don't drink to get drunk are seen as the strange ones.....

I have no ties to Scotland or to the UK. I've lived in both Scotland and England and I can't say that I have any real desire to remain and settle into a life here. As such I've felt very temporary for years, always with the desire to emigrate and make a better life for myself. As such I have plans to emigrate through my job (police officer) to Australia or possibly New Zealand in 2010. Whilst I am well aware that neither country is exactly the land of milk and honey, I have to do what I feel is right for me.

Fact is I don't fit well into Scottish life. I don't support either of the Old Firm (soccer), don't fall into either biggoted camp of Protestant or Catholic, I don't consider getting pissed at the weekend to be the only highlight of life to live for, and don't believe in socialism. From that point of view I'm pretty stumped!

Thlayli · « **Reply #138 on:** 05 Aug 2008, 21:58 »

As an American, I've always drawn a pretty thick line between nationalism and patriotism. Patriotism is in-your-face flag waving; it's treating your home country as a brand-name, which I refuse to do on principle. I see nationalism as an educated version of patriotism. Nationalists take the time to figure out all the reasons why they'd rather not be a citizen anywhere else. I'm an American nationalist mostly because I know I wouldn't be fully accepted anywhere else in the world. When your family comes from everywhere and nowhere, a mutt of a country like America is the only glove that fits.

Hat · « **Reply #139 on:** 06 Aug 2008, 02:35 »

The funny thing is that even though I share very similar definitions of nationalism and patriotism, the closer I look at these definitions the more I feel that they should be switched. However with WW1 (taught to me and many others in an oversimplified manner as nationalism gone to its most horrific extreme) so far away, and the Patriot act so very close, it makes a lot of sense for us to look at it the other way around.

JD · « **Reply #140 on:** 08 Aug 2008, 22:29 »

Patriotism is a funny thing for americans, for example we hate people burning our flag but don't give a crap about having the sacred american icon on our boxers.

waterloosunset · « **Reply #141 on:** 09 Aug 2008, 00:18 »

Today is the 63rd Anniversary of the Nagasaki bomb.

KharBevNor · « **Reply #142 on:** 09 Aug 2008, 03:19 »

Quote from: Thlayli on 05 Aug 2008, 21:58

I see nationalism as an educated version of patriotism. Nationalists take the time to figure out all the reasons why they'd rather not be a citizen anywhere else. I'm an American nationalist mostly because I know I wouldn't be fully accepted anywhere else in the world. When your family comes from everywhere and nowhere, a mutt of a country like America is the only glove that fits.

I'm sorry but...what? This is a combination of bullshit and circular reasoning, in that you are basically saying that you have made a rational choice to suck Americas dick because you were born in America. I mean seriously, it makes a rather good deal of sense that you are most likely to immediately fit in in the country you were born and accultured to. But please don't trot out the myths of America as the all-embracing land of the free. It's easier to emigrate to almost any European country, for a start.

They're also mostly much less racist!

Patrick · « **Reply #143 on:** 09 Aug 2008, 07:29 »

I've had a very hit-and-miss relationship with nationalism in my lifetime. Because of nationalist horsefuckery, my country's embassy in Serbia was torched by anti-Kosovar protesters in Belgrade when Kosovo decided it didn't feel like being ruled by the historically-oppressive Serbs. Personally? I'm glad that the Kosovar nationalists finally got what they've been desperately wanting for so long. But it's because of nationalist jealousy on the part of Serbian nationalists (with a special mention of their Ultranationalist Party) that there were massive violent protests throughout Belgrade as well as many attempts by pitchfork militias to overrun NATO-KFOR's border guards and attack the Kosovar Albanians.

tl;dr: nationalism can be great, because now Kosovo is free. But it's a mixed blessing because the Serbs still somehow feel entitled to the land, claiming it as the "Heart of Serbia". When two forces of that strength collide, the result isn't pretty.

Thlayli · « **Reply #144 on:** 09 Aug 2008, 07:35 »

Wow, who pissed in your cheerios?

I made a reasoned decision to support my nation because my family came over from Europe back before this was even a country. Men in my family have been involved in all the big wars of American history - the Revolution, Civil War, WWII, even the Cold War to a much lesser extent. I'm invested in this place. And having been to Europe, I know exactly what sort of reaction Americans get when they mention their 'heritage'. If an American man were to try what John Wayne's character did in The Quiet Man, he'd be laughed out of the country at best. If you think it's easier to emigrate to any European country, walk into Switzerland and try to buy land.

As for Americans being more racist than anyone out there? I'd point to Switzerland again as a prime example, not to mention France. One of my ancestors actually forced his unusually rich parents to buy a town in South Carolina in order to free the slaves there and give them the land, before the Civil War. Last I checked, they still have the town named after him. The money in my family tree just happened to dry up after they spent everything they had for the sake of human rights.

So yeah, go ahead and jack off to your ideas of American inferiority. I'll just be over here holding up the ethics and work habits that made this country the number one destination for political refugees from just about everywhere in the world.

benji · « **Reply #145 on:** 09 Aug 2008, 07:57 »

I haven't read much of this thread, but there seems to be a misunderstanding of what the words "Patriotism" and "Nationalism" mean.

Patriotism: Love of country. This doesn't have to be unthinking flag-waving and saber-rattling. One can love the country one wishes to reform.

Nationalism: The idea that a people with the shared language, history, culture, and religion also share a destiny and should therefor be grouped together as a single nation. In it's most extreme forms, it tends to hold that whatever nationality it supports is somehow superior to all others.

One can be a patriot without being a nationalist. For example, there aren't many nationalists (in the strictest sense) in the US because we don't have a shared language, history, culture, or religion. Thlayli, you may really want to reconsider calling yourself an American Nationalist. Most of the people who do so are white supremacists who believe that only white, English speaking protestants belong in this country.

One can also be a nationalist without being a patriot, for example if one's "nation" is currently a part of another country. Though if you later win independence, you may become a patriot, and even be regarded as a great patriot.

As for who's "more racist," I don't think that's a simple thing to say. While it is now true that it is easier to go to many European countries then it is to go to the US, this is a relatively recent development. The US has had a long struggle with the kind of racial and cultural diversity that's really just starting in Europe. Already, we're seeing the cracks in places like France. Europeans of European descent in Western and Northern Europe are becoming very concerned with assimilation it seems. We will have to see what happens when large portions of most major European cities have African or Middle Eastern majorities and when these people want to maintain there own cultures.

Canada has done relatively well, though, with similar conditions to the US. I'm not sure what the difference was, but if I had to venture a guess, I would point to a lower population density coupled with some key historical differences.

KharBevNor · « **Reply #146 on:** 09 Aug 2008, 08:27 »

Quote from: Thlayli on 09 Aug 2008, 07:35

One of my ancestors actually forced his unusually rich parents to buy a town in South Carolina in order to free the slaves there and give them the land, before the Civil War. Last I checked, they still have the town named after him. The money in my family tree just happened to dry up after they spent everything they had for the sake of human rights.

That's really nice. I'm sure you feel fucking proud. Didn't stop the lynchings though, did it? Didn't mean America didn't have legal slavery long after it was abolished by the British, French, Dutch, Spanish, Portugese, Danes, Japanese, Brazilians, etc. etc. etc. Didn't stop Jim Crow, segregation, the KKK etc.? I mean, it's wonderful your ancestor was such a swell guy, but his laudable actions don't mean America wasn't a racist hell-hole, and they don't mean America isn't still particularly rife with institutional racism. When did you personally take any positive action to end racism and bigotry? Still resting on your great great great whatever?

Ethics and work habits? Sweet Jesus. I hope you know that's bullshit.

For the record, I don't think Americas inferior, so much as unusually arrogant and blind to it's incredible failings. Don't sweat it anyway, world economy's collapsing in a couple of years, then we'll see that great mom and apple pie crying bald eagle god bless America work ethic in full swing whilst you shoot each other in the street for a loaf of bread.

Alex C · « **Reply #147 on:** 09 Aug 2008, 08:38 »

I've always quietly chalked up the worst excesses people attribute to nationalism as really being more of a problem with imperialism, actually. Nationalism on the face of it, makes a fair bit of sense. A shared culture, after all, is really no more than a fancy term for a set of shared interests and priorities, so it makes sense that people with the same general priorities should cooperate and work as a unit. For example, as a United States citizen hailing from Minnesota, it seems foolish that I should have much to say about the lives of trawler captains working of the coast of Greenland. The problem comes about when some bozos pick up a map and start telling people they know how to manage their lives than better they do. After all, nationalism has been a response to tyranny as often as it has been a tool of dictators.

mooface · « **Reply #148 on:** 09 Aug 2008, 10:44 »

Quote from: KharBevNor on 09 Aug 2008, 03:19

It's easier to emigrate to almost any European country, for a start.

They're also mostly much less racist!

ahahahaha... what? i can't speak for every european country, but i'll just go ahead and speak for italy. i honestly have no idea what the immigration process is like, although i am sure it's less invasive & strict than the american way. but at least you have the option of eventually becoming an american citizen once you've been here long enough. in italy and several other european countries (i am pretty sure germany and france operate along the same lines) you really have no chance of ever being considered a citizen, no matter how long you live there, unless you are married to one or have family originally from there. even your children won't be considered citizens, even if they are born there, if they are not descended from citizens!

as for racism... seriously? you think that europe is less racist? again, i'll just go ahead and speak for italy where racism is completely ingrained into the culture. if you say something racist against the polish, gypsies, albanians, moroccans... no one even gives you a second glance. not everyone is racist, but it's considered normal to have at least some blatantly racist sentiments. i won't even start on the french and germans who i've known to be openly and unashamedly racist.
i'm definitely not going to deny that america has plenty of issues when it comes to racism. but honestly, at least it is mostly frowned upon as being wrong and politically incorrect. and it's ridiculous to suggest that america is alone or "the worst" in its racism, when really prejudice and discrimination can be found all over the world in various forms.

america has a lot of issues and problems, but just because patriotism pisses you off doesn't mean that you need to go on a bashing spree. all countries all over the world have wonderful things and terrible things about them. and yes, some have more bad than good, or good than bad. but there is no reason to get all arrogant and up-in-arms just because people love their country for its good qualities and despite its flaws. it's only natural to feel attached to the culture which formed you, which you can identify with and that you most truly belong to. taken to an extreme in which you think your country is superior, this can be a bad thing. but there isn't anything wrong with appreciating the place you grew up in becuase you got a lot of good out of it - and i'm sure thlayli is not completely ignorant of america's bad qualities just because he loves his country. i don't see why him feeling glad about fitting in america is any worse than you being so completely judgmental and accusatory of an entire nation.

basically what i am trying to say, khar, is that you need to stop getting so angry on the internet.

Alex C · « **Reply #149 on:** 09 Aug 2008, 11:32 »

Damn painkillers are making me all giggly 'n' shit. I only read the OP before posting earlier so now I'm just stuck here snickering at the fact that I didn't notice I was posting in the midst of a brewing shitstorm. I find this unreasonably amusing. /blog

Anyway, yeah, what MaiAda said. Also, I find the idea of pulling the immigration card out against the US kind of funny considering I'm a legal citizen despite the fact that until 5 years ago I still had living relatives who were illegals when they came here, and for the most part my family hasn't had to take shit from anyone. I know it's the racists who get all the press when it comes to concerns about illegal immigration, but for every stereotypical asshole out there who's really only got a problem with skin color there's a whole mess of people who plain don't care as long as you're a decent person or who honestly have legitimate economic concerns with the situation in general rather than the people involved in particular.

THESE FORUMS NOW CLOSED (read only)

Author Topic: patriotism/nationalism (Read 30794 times)

Thlayli

Thlayli

mooface