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[Ozymandias]

I would posit that true racism has fallen out of favor in America, even among racists.

By true racism, I refer to considering a person better or worse because of the genetics and physiology. The old idea of racism from which eugenics emerged, the idea that flaws in a person's character come from genetic background rather than upbringing.

It has been replaced with a cultural racism, the idea that black people come from inner city lower-class culture and the like, so they prefer to be uneducated and ghetto, or that hispanic people come from recent immigrants, legal or otherwise, and do menial labor.

It's much easier for a person to be judged by the conditions around their life that turned them into the person they are rather than the genetics that decided the color of their skin in modern America than it was 50 years ago. I call that progress, because it at least makes a grain of sense.

[KharBevNor]

ahahahaha... what?  i can't speak for every european country, but i'll just go ahead and speak for italy.  i honestly have no idea what the immigration process is like, although i am sure it's less invasive & strict than the american way.  but at least you have the option of eventually becoming an american citizen once you've been here long enough.  in italy and several other european countries (i am pretty sure germany and france operate along the same lines) you really have no chance of ever being considered a citizen, no matter how long you live there, unless you are married to one or have family originally from there.  even your children won't be considered citizens, even if they are born there, if they are not descended from citizens!

The Italian immigration system is unusually harsh, has come under strong criticism from the EU and is probably going to be changed soon anyway. Besides which, Italy is hardly the definitive example of a European state. The French, German, British, Spanish, Polish, Swedish, Austrian (etc.) immigration policies are not as harsh. Plus, we don't have the same institutional racism as the states. Oh, it's there, but nowhere near on the same level. The thing about America is that it is wrong to be openly bigoted, but all that really means is that the endemic racism built into American society is swept under the table. Look at the figures for black and latino families living below the poverty line. Blacks and latinos with no health insurance. Blacks and latinos behind bars. Racism isn't just calling someone spic or nig[ger, and you're a fool if you think hushing down open bigotry ends racism. Sure, European countries have our problems with racism, especially in the baltic and environs (ie italy) with gypsies and such forth. What I'm objecting to is the painting of America as some sort of halcyon utopia where people of all creeds and colours are welcome and treated as equals. Bullshit!

Furthermore, he was not saying he loves his country because he was bought up there. What he said was he has undergone a rational process of weighing up all the countries in the world and America is best because he was born there. Then he trotted out all this absurd jerking off on the fucking stars and stripes land of the free bullshit. Tell it to the fucking Sioux.

[Ozymandias]

Judging a country you've never been to that spans 3.89 million square miles, has a population of 300 million people, and consists of hundred of distinct cultures as one particular thing sure is easy.

[KharBevNor]

Hundreds of distinct cultures?

Please, holmes.

[Vendetagainst]

Well that was certainly a well thought out response! Do you really think that the scraps you've been spoonfed represent America as a whole? Do you think that you could go to New Orleans or New England and get basically the same experience? You're just clinging to some half thought out idea out of a determination to hold a grudge, you don't understand anything and you should just shut your damn mouth.

You're being irrational and xenophobic, basically.

[KharBevNor]

Distinct cultures? Come off it please. If America had a hundred  distinct cultures it would not be a nation, and any nationalism or patriotism would make no sense. Just because people in different parts of a country drink different beer and pronounce bath differently doesn't mean they're distinct cultures. Besides which, you know fucking nothing of what I've been 'spoonfed' of America, and are in fact just cleaving to a handy stereotype which handily allows you to ignore everything I say.

Fuck yeah!

[Trollstormur]

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF

[Vendetagainst]

in fact just cleaving to a handy stereotype

Doesn't that put us on equal footing? And anyway, I am a moderately well-informed person who still knows only the simple fundamentals of many other nations, why should I expect somebody who lives five thousand miles from me to know as much about my life as I do? And I think you're just intentionally being a dick when you take what Ozy said and turn it into something literal. The US is nearly 10 million square kilometers, is it really that hard to imagine that there are many, many regional variations?

[öde]

So what? The UK has a huge amount of 'regional variations' too. America is America, you pay for things in dollars, you get thanksgiving and christmas off, you go wild on spring break if you're in college, you drink coffee, eat bagels, waffles, donuts and pancakes, shop in places that could contain villages...

[RedLion]

stuff

Yeah, and the Turkish immigrants in Germany aren't subjected to fierce and occasionally violent racism, nor the Algerians in France, nor Moroccans in Spain, nor the Pakistanis in Britain...come the fuck off it. You're as full of shit as anyone. Migrant workers (i.e., Muslims and Eastern Europeans) are treated with the same ammout of institutionalized disdain and racism in Western Europe as they are in America, and at least here the Hispanics usually assimilate into the wider culture of the country. The same isn't true for, say, the Pakistanis in England at all. They're distinct and separate and often hate the country they find themselves in. Its European countries who have been debating banning the building of mosques and minarets, and France who ruled that a woman couldn't be a citizen because she wore a Burka. Note that I actually think that ruling was semi-smart; but don't tell me Europe isn't just as racist, if not more, than America. You're not more an enlightened society than we are.

[öde]

Note that I actually think that ruling was semi-smart.

Really? You think that people shouldn't be made citizens because of what they wear?

[Vendetagainst]

So what? The UK has a huge amount of 'regional variations' too. America is America, you pay for things in dollars, you get thanksgiving and christmas off, you go wild on spring break if you're in college, you drink coffee, eat bagels, waffles, donuts and pancakes, shop in places that could contain villages...

that was not my point.

And you forgot bourbon.

[öde]

Then what was your point, if you don't mind explaining?

[Vendetagainst]

I was just saying that America is not just the single, transparent society that [I feel that] Khar made it out to be. Just stop trying to make everything a comparison, it's unproductive.

[KharBevNor]

I remember reading an op-ed piece in support of that French ruling by a female muslim minister in the French government.

There's like, one muslim in congress?

Anyway, where's the magical place in America where there's no racism?

[öde]

I was just saying that America is not just the single, transparent society that [I feel that] Khar made it out to be. Just stop trying to make everything a comparison, it's unproductive.

I think you have to explain it a little better than that, with evidence and such because I don't see how it isn't. It's unproductive to just state a point, you have to back it up a bit or slow people like me won't get it.

[RedLion]

I remember reading an op-ed piece in support of that French ruling by a female muslim minister in the French government.

There's like, one muslim in congress?

Anyway, where's the magical place in America where there's no racism?

Did I say there was a place in America where there was no Racism? No. I didn't. But you were going on as if Europe is so much less racist and more open-minded. And that's bullshit. People in Europe--and that includes Britain--are just as xenophobic and racist and the average American is.

Note that I actually think that ruling was semi-smart.

Really? You think that people shouldn't be made citizens because of what they wear?

No, not necessarily, but I don't think it's brilliant to be making people citizens who have no interest at all in the culture or way of life of your country. I don't think that's racist. Maybe xenophobic. But it seems like you're asking for large trouble if you just say "everyone come on and you won't have to make any attempt to learn the language or assimilate into society," and France already has a problem with unassimilated Muslim/African youths in Marseilles and the ghettos of Paris.

[jhocking]

ALERT ALERT

THREAD GOING DOWNHILL CAPN

TOO POLITICAL



ADDITION: To try to be constructive I suppose I'll elaborate on why I've sounded the alert. The thread was tense at times but no biggie for the first three pages, but this last page has been straight shouting back and forth. Instead of arguing about whether or not America is racist, how about we get back on topic?

[mooface]

Anyway, where's the magical place on earth where there's no racism?

[Vendetagainst]

I was just saying that America is not just the single, transparent society that [I feel that] Khar made it out to be. Just stop trying to make everything a comparison, it's unproductive.

I think you have to explain it a little better than that, with evidence and such because I don't see how it isn't. It's unproductive to just state a point, you have to back it up a bit or slow people like me won't get it.

Fine.
First of all, no well established society is going to single-faceted. Even in a place where legitimate self-expression is extremely dangerous (such as North Korea) I believe that there is going to be some cultural variation. What I mean by "I believe" will be explained in a minute.
Something you need to realize is that a person simply cannot fully understand a culture until they've embraced it, as far as I'm concerned it is impossible. The mainstream media is no representation of real life or thoughts, I have no idea what it is other then a vanilla brainfuck that allows even the most incompetent person to sit down and have something to stare at while he dies.
As a species thrives it branches out and changes, this is evolution. With a culture it is no different; two people within the same culture will separate and facilitate change just as two organisms will. When a foreign idea enters a populace it is either embraced or rejected, and when embraced it changes both itself and its environment.
Consider also that America has been tremendously influenced by other cultures. People have called it the melting pot. My great grandparents were almost certainly involved in the Herrin massacre, but you don't know what that is, of course. Herrin has spent the entire time since that event trying to make up for it, and for that reason (on top of being one of the most friendly and welcoming places around) I don't think that today it has any true parallel. It is not any particularly special place, but if you just consider how immensely that single event changed the town, and then think that thousands of other remote towns have been made unique by their own history, I think that it's only fair to say that nowhere in the world is going to be exactly what an outsider thinks it is.
If you're willing to say that America is basically what you perceive it to be then you have no place suggesting that any other stereotype is invalid. Is England a place where everybody sits around drinking tea and eating crumpets and being ridiculously prudent and mannersome? Fuck no, of course not, some things really are not as simple as they appear.

[jhocking]

SHUT IT HITLER

AMERICANS ARE NAZIS

[jhocking]

EUROPEANS TOO

[Vendetagainst]

my bad.

[Hat]

Also while it hasn't popped up on this page, I read through this thread again and see the sentiment "people will always divide the world into an us vs them mentality" pop up over and over again and I think its disgraceful that some people who find this distasteful can't have a little fucking optimism that one day in this rapidly shrinking world, we (a general majority of people in the world) might find such arbitrary distinctions to be useless and maybe learn to embrace our differences as part of what makes us great as a species.

I'm just saying this idea that human nature is immutable is inherently counterproductive towards our emotional growth as a collective species with one definite thing in common, that we are all human.

[Jimmy the Squid]

Man I love this thread.

So Much.

Also, Hat, when we get to the point where we all band together as a species do you think we're just going to hate on the rest of the universe?

Hurrah for the Earthicans!

[Hat]

Man, we'll probably start on the environment first before we work our way up to other planets.

Goddamn environment has it coming anyway

[Hairy Joe Bob]

fucking environment.

coming over here.

stealing our women, raping our jobs

fucker's goin down. send him back home!

[waterloosunset]

If there's one good thing about American immigration systems, it's the "melting pot" idea. Anyone is free to come over, and then assimilates and becomes and American. Entirely fair, accepting the culture etc when you move somewhere else, and a system we over here could use for new arrivals, and also for our expats to adopt the culture of their host country when they leave here.

[KharBevNor]

Man, it is interesting how I am getting accused of anti-americanism and xenophobia when all I have done is mention broad problems with American state institutions. I have never said I don't like Americans or anything. People just cannot seem to seperate criticism of a nations institution and balls-out hatred of its entire populace.

This is the problem with nationalism in a fucking nutshell.

[öde]

Vendetagainst I think you're confused about the meaning of the word culture like many people confuse the words accent and dialect.

[waterloosunset]

Anyone is free to come over

Talk to any mexicans lately?

I meant the classic immigrants to america, in the boat pulling up near the Statue of Liberty, wearing shorts, flat caps, maybe playing a  few violins

[Hat]

If there's one good thing about American immigration systems, it's the "melting pot" idea. Anyone is free to come over, and then assimilates and becomes and American.

The problem being that some people interpret the melting pot idea as meaning "leave your old culture at the door, you're an AMERICAN now", and not understanding the point of the melting pot is to create a society where all cultures can mingle together. It's entirely common, at least in Australia for people to use the term assimilate to criticize the desire for immigrants to maintain their ethnic identity.

[Vendetagainst]

Vendetagainst I think you're confused about the meaning of the word culture like many people confuse the words accent and dialect.

That could be, if I did then my bad.

Anyone is free to come over

Talk to any mexicans lately?

Um... yes.
Hate to quote wikipedia, but in Chicago...
"26.02% of the population were Hispanic of any race. 21.72% of the population was foreign born; of this, 56.29% came from Latin America, 23.13% from Europe, 17.96% from Asia and 2.62% from other parts of the world"
So more than one in four people is hispanic and one in five is foreign born, do you think these people are hiding out in crumbling shelters somewhere? 'Cause they're not, you know.

[mooface]

[Patrick]

as for racism... seriously?  you think that europe is less racist?  again, i'll just go ahead and speak for italy where racism is completely ingrained into the culture.  if you say something racist against the polish, gypsies, albanians, moroccans... no one even gives you a second glance.  not everyone is racist, but it's considered normal to have at least some blatantly racist sentiments.  i won't even start on the french and germans who i've known to be openly and unashamedly racist.

This is pretty much dead on. It's the one thing I've never been comfortable with while living in Europe. Shit, man, I was playing a gig one night back home in Albania, and this guy was telling me about how he visited Chicago and didn't like it because there were too many black people (he used a much less pleasant term for them). He wasn't even the first. And I don't even want to talk about my school in Luxembourg except to mention that such strong nationality-based hatred was one of the reasons I dropped out and have no solid plans to pursue higher education.

do you think these people are hiding out in crumbling shelters somewhere? 'Cause they're not, you know.

Wikipedia knows fuck-all about this kind of thing.

I have an assignment for you. Go anywhere in California between Salinas, Watsonville, and Santa Cruz during harvest time. While driving around, look out your window. There's lots of Mexicans all bent over in the fields, picking strawberries or what have you. Drive around the nice parts of town and you will not see any of these Mexicans. Drive around the shitty crumbly parts? Suddenly, Mexicans everywhere. Hate to break it to you, but illegal immigration is definitely a reality, and these people will never see the end of my sympathy as long as they have to hide out and do backbreaking labor just to make a goddamn dollar.

[tommydski]

The problem being that some people interpret the melting pot idea as meaning "leave your old culture at the door, you're an AMERICAN now", and not understanding the point of the melting pot is to create a society where all cultures can mingle together. It's entirely common, at least in Australia for people to use the term assimilate to criticize the desire for immigrants to maintain their ethnic identity.

This strikes me as the most sensible and compelling response in the thread thus far. I completely agree. So strange, this division of the new and old world. The former is in theory a recreation of the latter across the sea but most people seem content to ignore this.

I know from experience that everyone hates it when I get needlessly Debordian but I can't help but think the existing stereotypes of new world patriotism/nationalism are the hallmarks of the spectacular. The culture of those who occupy the new world has been compartmentalised in the face of the new mythology as dictated by the mass media. This could explain why whenever I go to the US I can never find any Americans as they are often represented as a cultural archetype. To me it always seems like more Europeans, Asians and Africans who happen to live across a significant body of water. The 'new' culture is young enough to be based near enough entirely on commodity fetishism and appropriately it comes across as somewhat inauthentic to independent observers like KharBevNor.

It's a classic hallmark of Capitalism and I think it's also a trend set to continue as the world does develop into a global mentality. In fact, it's probably a crucial stage in this process, the abandonment of heritage and the adoption of a newer, streamlined society fixated on the present rather than the past. In this manner the idea of distinct Nationalities can be gradually dismantled in the face of a sort of all-encompassing cultural hegemony. Naturally, as someone who is on the beneficial end of Capitalism, it doesn't bother me in particular.

[waterloosunset]

The problem being that some people interpret the melting pot idea as meaning "leave your old culture at the door, you're an AMERICAN now",

Surely in America it was always that way? Italians, Irish, Germans etc in the late 19th/early 20th century came over and were encouraged to "Americanise", so second generations onwards lost the old ways of their ancestry and spoke english, drove big cars, ate apple pie, played baseball etc. Give the hispanics a couple of generations and it'll be the same with them, completly immersed in the mainstream. Of course there will always be a few who don't change, but on the whole they'll be considered American, not Latino

[Leinad]

 What I'm objecting to is the painting of America as some sort of halcyon utopia where people of all creeds and colours are welcome and treated as equals. Bullshit!

Then he trotted out all this absurd jerking off on the fucking stars and stripes land of the free bullshit. Tell it to the fucking Sioux.

First, a piece of advice: If you are European do not bring history into this. Just don't do it. You have the longest history of racism, bigotry, and waging war under false pretences. If you think that is American arrogance, you are probably right, but it is arrogance through only being a disphit for 200 years, rather than 1000.

Second of all, no one paints America as a Utopia (l2use halcyon right), and what is wrong with believing that a certain country is better? We don't blame you for not being born here, but we just want you to know that you could have tried a little harder during conception.

[Slick]

We don't blame you for not being born here, but we just want you to know that you could have tried a little harder during conception.

Man, is that a bad joke or are you a giant ass?


My thoughts on Nationalism/Patriotism: Fuck the notion that your ancestors matter. Live your life today with the people around you. Fuck the thought that you have any intrinsic prestige or dishonour from the past. Live your life in the world you are in today and do what you can not to fuck other people's shit up. Everyone has the time in their life to realize what's good and bad about their past and to not do it in the present.

[Slick]

First, a piece of advice: If you are European do not bring history into this. Just don't do it. You have the longest history of racism, bigotry, and waging war under false pretences. If you think that is American arrogance, you are probably right, but it is arrogance through only being a disphit for 200 years, rather than 1000.

Maybe I am just angrier than I used to be, but fuck this sentiment. Every nation has a shit load of bad stuff in their past.
History is great. It really is. It's an amazing fruitful source of intellectual and academic discourse, and it's invaluable in helping us figure out what to do with our future and avoid the mistakes of the past.
Debating about history as though it means anything today is kind of fucked, as I see it, though. I was born under thirty years ago. I've got mixed blood from many cultures. I don't see why ancient grudges mean shit. There are a whole bunch of people on this planet and we are all trying to live right now.

[tommydski]

Yes I know this is politically correct,
But it comes to you spiritually direct,
An attempt to thoughtfully affect,
Your way of thinking.

That is if you believe in race,
Or that you were born,
In the right time or place,
This is a thought:
About face your way of thinking...

[Slick]

First, a piece of advice: If you are European do not bring history into this. Just don't do it. You have the longest history of racism, bigotry, and waging war under false pretences. If you think that is American arrogance, you are probably right, but it is arrogance through only being a disphit for 200 years, rather than 1000.

I am going to stop ranting the shit out of this reply any minute now, but my ancestors who were not of noble stock are not to blame for meaningless wars under false pretenses. Poor fishermen might be worked up to think someone's the enemy, but in the end, they're working hard jobs for little money and the upper class keeps all of all the power. The entirety of the population of Europe is not to blame for the fucked up workings of monarchies and empires.

[ruyi]

The problem being that some people interpret the melting pot idea as meaning "leave your old culture at the door, you're an AMERICAN now",

Surely in America it was always that way? Italians, Irish, Germans etc in the late 19th/early 20th century came over and were encouraged to "Americanise", so second generations onwards lost the old ways of their ancestry and spoke english, drove big cars, ate apple pie, played baseball etc. Give the hispanics a couple of generations and it'll be the same with them, completly immersed in the mainstream. Of course there will always be a few who don't change, but on the whole they'll be considered American, not Latino

I thought that was because they were white? Also one of the problems with your argument is that Mexicans have been around for a pretty long time. And by pretty long time I mean they were living in states like California and Texas while those areas were still part of Mexico. Blacks/asians/arabs/latinos are still looked at as 'other', even if they've been here for many generations as well.

[Vendetagainst]

I have an assignment for you. Go anywhere in California between Salinas, Watsonville, and Santa Cruz during harvest time. While driving around, look out your window. There's lots of Mexicans all bent over in the fields, picking strawberries or what have you. Drive around the nice parts of town and you will not see any of these Mexicans. Drive around the shitty crumbly parts? Suddenly, Mexicans everywhere. Hate to break it to you, but illegal immigration is definitely a reality, and these people will never see the end of my sympathy as long as they have to hide out and do backbreaking labor just to make a goddamn dollar.

Well of course illegal immigration is a reality. And yeah, the people who come here have nothing to start with and have to do things that they absolutely should not have to do to get by, but it's not like there aren't Mexicans gaining legal citizenship to this country. I was on a plane from Tucson going to Chicago and by the end of the flight I was helping the woman next to me practice for her citizenship test, she came here for college (I don't remember her major) and she wasn't in some field picking fruit. Illegal immigration is just as much Mexico's fault as anybody's, if their country wasn't a shit place to live for a LOT of people then so many people wouldn't be trying to get out of it.

The entirety of the population of Europe is not to blame for the fucked up workings of monarchies and empires.

That could be said of any country though.

[Slick]

I was born in Labrador (Canada), and I love my home. Maybe it's who I am or just the fact that I grew up there, but I just love the place. It makes me so goddamned happy to stand on top of a humbled old mountain and look across a barren winter wasteland. I love being in the place
Maybe I'd be just as happy somewhere else, but that's where I was born and this is who I am.

I think Canada is pretty neat, I like our reputation, and I like to think I live up to it most of the time. I like that, when traveling abroad, people can see a Canadian flag and just like me right away, and I like that traveling within Canada, I tell people I'm from Labrador and everyone just likes me right away, and newfies consider me old friends.
Now, my approach to understanding what this means to me is just that people seem to like the idea of Canada, and if they treat me nice I'm going to do my damndest to treat them right as well.

I wouldn't say I'm proud to be what I am, just that I consider myself lucky and would like to live up to expectations and make them better.

[tommydski]

if their country wasn't a shit place to live for a LOT of people then so many people wouldn't be trying to get out of it.

Come on, folks. A bit of decorum and tact needed here. From everyone.

[Slick]

The entirety of the population of Europe is not to blame for the fucked up workings of monarchies and empires.

That could be said of any country though.

Yes, exactly, that is what I was getting at. Gold star.

[Vendetagainst]

@Tommy
I've been to Mexico. When people live in very literal shacks on the side of the road without any reliant source of water, when the government has ownership over all of the fucking land, and when the police are fucking brutal beyond any level found in the states or in Europe, I would say that's a pretty shit place to live.

That's not the point! I was arguing the statement that said "everyone is welcome here" when they obviously are not.

Well I get what you might be saying, but people are welcome if they just follow the parameters of entry. I get that there are times when this is not possible for them, and I'm not even against illegal immigration, really, but it's not like somebody trying to legally gain citizenship isn't going to be thrown out for their ethnicity, creed, etc.

[JediBendu]

I know from experience that everyone hates it when I get needlessly Debordian but I can't help but think the existing stereotypes of new world patriotism/nationalism are the hallmarks of the spectacular. The culture of those who occupy the new world has been compartmentalised in the face of the new mythology as dictated by the mass media. This could explain why whenever I go to the US I can never find any Americans as they are often represented as a cultural archetype. To me it always seems like more Europeans, Asians and Africans who happen to live across a significant body of water.

You're obviously not looking close enough. It's somewhat offensive to imagine someone believing that American culture is shaped by the mass media.

I'm curious about where you've been in America anyway. I mean you might be able to make that observation in distinctly suburban areas, or cities in California, or New York, perhaps. But even places like Boston and New England are culturally distinct and aren't really represented in the mass media. I'm from the south and it's pretty flat out wrong if you don't think there's a very rich and distinct culture that's been built up here over the years. Regardless of whether it seems uninviting to you or you look down on it for certain aspects. Places in the south are also pretty hard to compare to each other. You can't really compare rural Arkansas to New Orleans. It's likewise hard to compare Memphis to Alabama or Texas.

African-American culture is completely distinct from traditional African culture. Even small town suburban, American culture is different from what you'd see in other places (and lately it seems this suburban culture is what's represented in the mass media.)

The American archetype that's been talked about in this thread is something I've never seen after living in America for my entire life. But it's frankly ignorant to discern that we're all media sheep with no history or depth of culture.

[tommydski]

The American archetype that's been talked about in this thread is something I've never seen after living in America for my entire life.

Yes, that was my point. You quoted it -

This could explain why whenever I go to the US I can never find any Americans as they are often represented as a cultural archetype.

I was positing the theory that it's a construct of sorts. It comes from the most visible media which is likely to travel abroad. That's how a lot of people see America.

Possibly I was unclear but on re-reading my post I want to say exactly the same again. Maybe I can clarify -

The culture of those who occupy the new world has been compartmentalised in the face of the new mythology as dictated by the mass media.

The cultures of the US have been obfuscated by the construct we previously discussed above. The archetype of the generic American has become more real than legitimate Americans in the minds of certain people.

I'm not saying that America is bereft of history or culture. I was commenting on the discrepancy between my experience of America as compared to the version which is popularised through mass media.