Jeph Jacques's comics discussion forums

  • 28 Nov 2021, 07:15
  • Welcome, Guest
Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: [1] 2   Go Down

Author Topic: ASBO = AAAAAAGH  (Read 9582 times)

Vendetagainst

  • Scrabble hacker
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,273
  • Too orangey for crows
ASBO = AAAAAAGH
« on: 26 Jul 2008, 03:25 »

I have never heard of these things before until today but they are truly the most retarded excuses for law enforcement ever.

"Anti-Social Behavior Orders", legal punishments for being anti-social!! HOLY FUCKING SHIT.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200405/cmselect/cmhaff/80/80we20.htm

"In May 2004, a 16-year-old boy was banned from behaving in an anti-social manner at school. The five year order covers the whole of England and Wales and came as a response to his disruption of a science class (Source—Statewatch ASBOwatch)"

" In February 2003, a 16-year-old boy was banned from showing his tattoos, wearing a single golf glove, or wearing a balaclava in public anywhere in the country. He was also forbidden from congregating in public places in groups of more than three people. (Source—Statewatch ASBOwatch)"

"In October 2004, a profoundly deaf girl was served an order for spitting in public. Having broken it she is currently in prison on remand. (Source—Statewatch ASBOwatch)"
« Last Edit: 26 Jul 2008, 03:27 by Vendetagainst »
Logged
Quote from: Sox
I think it's because your 'age' is really only determined by how exasperated you seem when you have to stand up.

Quote from: KharBevNor
PEW PEW PEW FUCK OFF SPACE

pwhodges

  • Admin emeritus
  • Awakened
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 16,930
  • I'll only say this once...
    • My home page
Re: ASBO = AAAAAAGH
« Reply #1 on: 26 Jul 2008, 03:46 »

The UK is close to being a police state in some ways.  We have more cameras per head of population than any other country, and there are places where they have put loudspeakers next to cameras so that they can shout at the yoof to tell them to behave better.  They have also tried (and failed) to prevent teenagers from congregating in "nice" places (shopping malls) by playing loud very high frequency sounds which hurt their ears, but "nice" older people can't hear; and in some places by simply playing classical music!

ASBOs do have some point, though - they are similar to being "bound over to keep the peace".  You can find examples of absurd use of just about any law.
Logged
"Being human, having your health; that's what's important."  (from: Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi )
"As long as we're all living, and as long as we're all having fun, that should do it, right?"  (from: The Eccentric Family )

Tom

  • Older than Moses
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4,090
  • 8==D(_(_(
Re: ASBO = AAAAAAGH
« Reply #2 on: 26 Jul 2008, 04:28 »

If I were English, I'd be wanting to/doing the former.
« Last Edit: 26 Jul 2008, 14:18 by n0t_r0bert_b0yle!! »
Logged

Peet

  • Curry sauce
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 262
  • The Second Gabber
Re: ASBO = AAAAAAGH
« Reply #3 on: 26 Jul 2008, 04:44 »

I think it's quite easy to read the Daily Mail and come to the conclusion that the evil labour government wants to turn Britain into a police state, but I have actually seen no evidence of that whatsoever in my life. I could not care less if there are a lot of security cameras in my town. It is a public place and thus people can see what I am up to, whether in person or via a camera. If I got mugged, the cameras might help find the chap who did it, which is a Good Thing as far as I can see.

The ASBO is a decent idea but, I think, overused and perhaps a bit overhyped. If we look at Vendetagainst's examples, though, they are fairly sensible. A boy is disrupting the education of others, so he gets told not to. Another is, presumably, doing antisocial things as part of a gang of more than three and is diguising his face with a balaclava. We stop him doing these things, which benefits the community. As for the last girl, she has gone to jail for breaching the terms of her ASBO, which is how these things work. She must have been made aware that that would be the action taken in such a circumstance.

The thing of playing high pitch noise to drive away young folks is a bit silly, but I don't think it's a widespread practice. The classical music idea I quite like.
Logged
Quote from: Slick
I think Astaldo should be the next Dr. Who

Oli

  • Beyond Thunderdome
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 571
Re: ASBO = AAAAAAGH
« Reply #4 on: 26 Jul 2008, 04:56 »

"In October 2004, a profoundly deaf girl was served an order for spitting in public. Having broken it she is currently in prison on remand. (Source—Statewatch ASBOwatch)"

The fact she is deaf does not mean that spitting in public is not a positively ghastly thing to do.

While I don't really see the ASBO as a decent way to stop anti social behaviour, which I think would require a huge social overhaul and changes to the way criminal behaviour is dealt with, I do not really care what happens to people who spit in the street.

There was talk of an initiative in the UK a wee while ago where people commiting minor crimes would be given X amount of money (I think it was something like 20 grand or so, what I do remember is that it was at least a thousand pounds less than it cost to incarcerate them) to spend on helping them achieve something productive. I think this is the best plan.
Logged

KharBevNor

  • Awakened
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11,017
  • broadly tolerated
    • http://mirkgard.blogspot.com/
Re: ASBO = AAAAAAGH
« Reply #5 on: 26 Jul 2008, 05:07 »

The UK is close to being a police state in some ways.

And yet there's never a copper around when you need one, eh?

I smell an agenda somewhere behind this ASBOwatch/statewatch thing. As Pete has pointed out, there is obviously a bigger story behind these things: The second story is obviously gang related, and in the third example, there is a nice little bit of rhetorical bullshit, in that the fact the girl is deaf has no relevance whatsoever on the fact that she breached her ASBO. Like many of the newer laws they're a good idea that has been over-used and occasionally abused. What ASBOs are for is for tackling serious anti-social behaviour where negotiation is not an option and prison would be heavy handed. A gang of youths who habitually stand around a shopping centre verbally abusing passers by can simply be banned from coming in, rather than wasting huge amounts of taxpayers money on full CJD proceedings. Someone who habitually plays loud dance music till 4AM in a block of flats can have an ASBO put in place against that, without hauling him to court for breaching noise pollution laws (which would be rather police state). In practice, coinciding as they have with certain other trends in policing ASBOs have become an overused tool in the police officers arsenal. I can't really blame them: British police officers generally command little respect from anyone under 30 and they are severely handicapped by beauracracy and pointless regulations, especially in their dealings with the young. Unfortunately we have become locked into a vicious cycle: the more endemic crime and anti-social behaviour become among the young (and having just left my teenage years in one of Britains more deprived areas, I can tell you that they are fucking endemic), so the police resort to increasingly more heavy handed tactics to stem the tide, so the respect of young people for the law and for society in general diminishes, repeat ad nauseum, or until machete wielding mobs of South London rudeboys ransack Buckingham palace and make Dizzee Rascal king, whichever is sooner.

As a committed anarchist I am of course opposed to all codified laws in principal. It'll be fun to watch how the whole thing plays out. Ideally I hope to do this from the relative comfort of Canada or Iceland. It is kind of a pity because this is a nice country and the people are, fundamentally, decent. Ah well.
Logged
[22:25] Dovey: i don't get sigquoted much
[22:26] Dovey: like, maybe, 4 or 5 times that i know of?
[22:26] Dovey: and at least one of those was a blatant ploy at getting sigquoted

http://panzerdivisio

jhocking

  • Methuselah's mentor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5,414
  • Corruption City USA
    • new|Arteest
Re: ASBO = AAAAAAGH
« Reply #6 on: 26 Jul 2008, 06:18 »

spitting in public is not a positively ghastly thing to do.

I routinely see people spit in public and I always think it should be a fined offense, like littering. People who spit in public are probably the same people who throw trash out their car window. Sending someone to jail for it is over the top though.
« Last Edit: 26 Jul 2008, 06:19 by jhocking »
Logged

Oli

  • Beyond Thunderdome
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 571
Re: ASBO = AAAAAAGH
« Reply #7 on: 26 Jul 2008, 06:22 »

To be fair she was imprisoned for breaching her ASBO, not the initial offence. Not knowing the details behind the imprisonment means it's hard to comment, but it is perhaps a little over the top.
Logged

Jimmy the Squid

  • Vulcan 3-D Chess Master
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3,589
  • Feminist Killjoy
Re: ASBO = AAAAAAGH
« Reply #8 on: 26 Jul 2008, 07:05 »

Spitting is pretty gross but I think throwing someone in prison is a bit of overkill for that particular offence.
Logged
Once I got drunk and threw up in the vegetable drawer of an old disused fridge while dressed as a cat

waterloosunset

  • Bizarre cantaloupe phobia
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 223
Re: ASBO = AAAAAAGH
« Reply #9 on: 26 Jul 2008, 07:13 »

ASBOs are basically a good thing. The media always try and make the recipients out to be angels, but there is almost always a back story, often involving gangs of chavs, and the ASBO is simply there to prevent them from terrorising the general public. Essentially it is a contract, as long as the ASBOer behaves themselves and stops behaving like a toerag, they won't be carted off to jail
Logged

ampersandwitch

  • The Tickler
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 951
  • cuntstruck
Re: ASBO = AAAAAAGH
« Reply #10 on: 26 Jul 2008, 07:42 »

If I were English, I'd be wanting to/doing the former Jens.

commas are your friends
Logged

Johnny C

  • Awakened
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10,039
  • i wanna be yr slide dog
    • I AM A WHORE FOR MY OWN MUSIC
Re: ASBO = AAAAAAGH
« Reply #11 on: 26 Jul 2008, 10:03 »

RE: SPITTING: Spitting in public is a bit gross but to even suggest it should be an offense with so much as a fine attached is patently absurd. If the spit doesn't land on you what difference does it make? Is it a health and hygiene thing? You spread more germs personally by opening and closing doors. Just worry about yourself, don't worry about someone spitting on the sidewalk that birds shit on, or in the grass that small animals regularly shit in, or in garbage cans where there is festering trash and possibly hobo shit. If someone spits directly on you that's a different story, but even then that's a personal story, not something where the cops should be involved.
Logged
[02:12] yuniorpocalypse: let's talk about girls
[02:12] Thug In Kitchen: nooo

Lines

  • Awakened
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10,330
Re: ASBO = AAAAAAGH
« Reply #12 on: 26 Jul 2008, 10:20 »

Sometimes people have to spit. I've spit in public, though discreetly, but seriously, I don't get the big deal. Yes it's gross, but everybody does it, be it in public or not. Now, if it hits you, then that's different.

Quote
19.  The oldest recipient of an order to date is an 87-year-old who among other things is forbidden from being sarcastic to his neighbours (July 2003). He was subsequently found guilty of breaking the terms of his order on three separate occasions. He awaits sentencing but the judge has already made it clear that "there will be no prison for an 88 year old man".

24.  In October 2004, a 15-year-old was served an order for playing football in the street.

26.  In December, Brian Hagan from Norfolk became the first farmer to be the subject of an ASBO when he was ordered to keep his swine and geese under control after people living near to his farm complained of damage. The order was made on Monday of the week beginning 13 December, but on Tuesday he was charged with allegedly breaching the order after reports that his pigs had escaped again. A breach of the order could lead to up to five years in jail.

I can't believe this is real. It's absurd.
Logged
:grumpypuss: :grumpypuss: :grumpypuss:

imapiratearg

  • Born in a Nalgene bottle
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3,232
  • Oh thanks. They're not mine.
    • http://www.myspace.com/superpunkdout
Re: ASBO = AAAAAAGH
« Reply #13 on: 26 Jul 2008, 10:51 »

I routinely see people spit in public and I always think it should be a fined offense, like littering. People who spit in public are probably the same people who throw trash out their car window. Sending someone to jail for it is over the top though.

Or, you know, people who don't like swallowing phlegm, because it's nasty.  Also, court order for being sarcastic?  Excuse a dude for being a little uppity when confronted with stupid people.
« Last Edit: 26 Jul 2008, 10:53 by imapiratearg »
Logged

öde

  • Vulcan 3-D Chess Master
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3,767
Re: ASBO = AAAAAAGH
« Reply #14 on: 26 Jul 2008, 11:04 »

I do not really care what happens to people who spit in the street.

So you wouldn't mind if they got the death penalty?
Logged

Dissy

  • The German Chancellory building
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 469
  • The only asshole in the internets
Re: ASBO = AAAAAAGH
« Reply #15 on: 26 Jul 2008, 11:10 »

I routinely see people spit in public and I always think it should be a fined offense, like littering. People who spit in public are probably the same people who throw trash out their car window. Sending someone to jail for it is over the top though.

I will sometimes spit in public, but I would never litter.  There are reasons sometimes for spitting in public, for example, I have pretty bad asthma which requires me to cough and clear out the flem from my lungs, and I do not want that shit going back into my body, so I will spit it out.  I think spitting on other people should be a fined offense.
Logged
Quote from: Tommy on Gabbly
i'm not paying for your boob jon
Quote from: Darryl
I fuck at typos
Quote from: Squiddy
but you haven't sig quoted me yet kevin
Quote from: Darryl on meebo
9 inches is pathetic by today's standard

JediBendu

  • Furry furrier
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 191
Re: ASBO = AAAAAAGH
« Reply #16 on: 26 Jul 2008, 11:31 »

The way some people spit here in the American South you would think it's encouraged. But hey, sometimes you just need to spit, man. But man, if a 87 year old man is banned from being sarcastic, then I'd be screwed over there in wacky old Britain.
Logged

snalin

  • Vulcan 3-D Chess Master
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3,567
  • You may Baste me
Re: ASBO = AAAAAAGH
« Reply #17 on: 26 Jul 2008, 11:43 »

So, this is just an... excuse to skip the court and jail somebody? This is too easy to abuse. "This guy is writing political stuff in a paper that offends a lot of people. Therefore, it's Anti-Social Behavior, and must be stopped".

If you put a girl in jail for spitting, you either have an utopia that dosen't know what to do with it's jails, or a stupid government.
Logged
I am a cowboy / on a steel horse I ride
I am wanted / Dead or alive

tommydski

  • Awakened
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10,064
    • Pocket Jury
Re: ASBO = AAAAAAGH
« Reply #18 on: 26 Jul 2008, 12:18 »

I think Pete, Oli and Khar have all made some good points here and I encourage everyone to read what they have said before making further comments.

It's easy to make a story from these ASBOs but in principle they are actually a fairly sound idea when executed correctly. Believe it or not, they exist to actually prevent people from going to jail for the most part. It's better to serve offenders these structured warnings so they can be absolutely sure of the specific acts which will land them in legal trouble. Only by repeatedly violating the terms of the ASBO will they find themselves facing jail. In an overwhelming majority of cases, ASBOs are issued to people who are persistently guilty of misdemeanors. An NAO study from last year found that 93% of people who were issued an ASBO ceased to violate the terms after three interventions. If that was an accurate report, I think they can be considered an active deterrent.

I have little to no sympathy for people who break the law time and time again. While I don't agree with all of the laws of the UK, I am content that by living here I should show at least cursory respect for the law. As someone who has worked and studied the media, I certainly have more respect for the people on street-level actually tackling crime in communities than those criticising them for doing so from afar.
Logged
Quote from: Ozymandias
One minute we're playing Mario Kart, the next my penis is in your mouth - it just happens.

Johnny C

  • Awakened
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10,039
  • i wanna be yr slide dog
    • I AM A WHORE FOR MY OWN MUSIC
Re: ASBO = AAAAAAGH
« Reply #19 on: 26 Jul 2008, 14:08 »

An NAO study from last year found that 93% of people who were issued an ASBO ceased to violate the terms after three interventions. If that was an accurate report, I think they can be considered an active deterrent.

This is the statistic I was waiting to see, and I'm glad you provided it, Tommy. Obviously serving a teenager an ASBO does nothing to directly counter the culture of violence and lawlessness that is apparently surging amongst the youth of the UK, but hopefully it causes them to think about their actions and consider them more fully in the future.
Logged
[02:12] yuniorpocalypse: let's talk about girls
[02:12] Thug In Kitchen: nooo

tommydski

  • Awakened
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10,064
    • Pocket Jury
Re: ASBO = AAAAAAGH
« Reply #20 on: 26 Jul 2008, 14:21 »

Well, that report was the National Audit Office, which is part of the Home Office itself.

I figure that even if they were being generous, you could knock 20% off that figure and it would still be a reasonable deterrent. The truth is that we have problems with anti-social behaviour and nobody can afford to move house because it's so expensive. If someone is making your life unbearable and you can't relocate, an ASBO might be your only alternative to a life of misery. It's a lot of work to get one issued and you have to go to great length to show cause. I doubt many people have the time, patience and money to issue them frivolously.
Logged
Quote from: Ozymandias
One minute we're playing Mario Kart, the next my penis is in your mouth - it just happens.

pwhodges

  • Admin emeritus
  • Awakened
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 16,930
  • I'll only say this once...
    • My home page
Re: ASBO = AAAAAAGH
« Reply #21 on: 26 Jul 2008, 15:37 »

I totally dug the "use your ears!" posters on the London Tube as well when I was there this summer. Don't be afraid to rat out your neighbour! He might be a terrorist!

<sigh> I haven't been to London for quite a while, and haven't seen them.  But it really is hard to find the line between encouraging reporting something that might save loads of innocent lives, and promoting the kind of mistrust between neighbours that was most characteristically shown by life in the DDR.  The trouble is that increasing regulation encourages a reduction of thought, and when people reach the point of spending their lives reacting without thinking at all, then the society I would like to live in has gone out of the window.

And I would like to make it clear I DO NOT READ THE DAILY MAIL!  I read The Guardian mainly, and have been becoming more definitely left-wing all through my life.
Logged
"Being human, having your health; that's what's important."  (from: Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi )
"As long as we're all living, and as long as we're all having fun, that should do it, right?"  (from: The Eccentric Family )

a pack of wolves

  • GET ON THE NIGHT TRAIN
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,663
Re: ASBO = AAAAAAGH
« Reply #22 on: 26 Jul 2008, 16:23 »

It's a lot of work to get one issued and you have to go to great length to show cause. I doubt many people have the time, patience and money to issue them frivolously.

Actually, you don't have to go to great length to show cause. As ASBOs are civil and not criminal hearsay evidence is admissable and they are decided upon by a magistrate, no jury option is available despite the fact that breach means a penalty of up to five years jail time. Also, minors have no right to privacy under ASBOs until they are facing proceedings about a breach since they're civil and children are only guaranteed anonymity for criminal proceedings. With ASBOs the 'name and shame' policy comes into effect, but that makes it very hard to give them anonymity if criminal proceedings are brought due to the ASBO having been breached.

The ridiculous ASBOs are strange and unpleasant but for me one of the most worrying aspects is detailed on the statewatch site, in the section on their use against protesters. Remember, ASBOs are there essentially to criminalise non-criminal acts. They define anti-social behaviour as "behaviour which causes or is likely to cause harassment, alarm or distress to one or more people who are not in the same household as the perpetrator". Since this is interpreted by a magistrate that means that magistrates now have the ability to criminalise basically any behaviour. The police have for a long time been using various pieces of legislation for means other than what they were originally intended (or at least, what it is claimed they were intended). For example, anti-terrorism legislation expanded their stop and search powers and these are now routinely used to harass and gather intelligence on protesters. The terrifying thing about ASBOs is in how vague they are, and that gives enormous power to control and prevent any kind of behaviour a magistrate decides they want to stop.

Quote
An NAO study from last year found that 93% of people who were issued an ASBO ceased to violate the terms after three interventions.

What constitutes an intervention? Breach of an ASBO can lead to five years jail time, and it's hard to go into the centre of town when you're doing time so you won't be breaching that ASBO again. In comparison to that statistic it's also worth noting that 47% of ASBOs are breached at least once. You also have to bear in mind that ASBOs often bar people going to certain areas, so although they don't breach the ASBO their behaviour continues the same just in a different location. There's a man local to me whose ASBO prevents him from going into the city centre, and it was given to him because he was a begging. He still begs, positioning himself next to the bridge which is the beginning of the area he's prevented from entering.

Khar gave a couple of examples above of approriate uses of an ASBO, but I'd like to counter them. A gang of youths outside a shopping centre abusing people could be prosecuted under existing legislation that prevents threatening behaviour. As for someone who plays music until very late at night, there are already noise pollution laws and it's standard for someone to be warned about their breach of them before being prosecuted. The problem the police and local authorities encounter in enforcing existing legislation is that they need proof. With an ASBO hearsay is acceptable. I have friends that have been accused of noise pollution before falsely, and had to stop having band practice in their house due to fears of prosecution. If they had been given an ASBO based on the false reports they could have faced five years for playing a guitar. The local authority where I live wanted to ASBO some kids that hung around outside a shopping centre not because they were abusive but because they lowered the tone on account of being scruffy and a bit goth looking and didn't buy anything. Thankfully that one didn't go through (mainly because people found out about the plan and kicked up a fuss), but they were wanting to bar them from entering the city centre at all with no real cause. In both cases the reason the existing legislation would have been ineffective is that it would have been impossible to get enough proof to back up the lies, but it's easy to ASBO someone on some nasty rumours.
Logged
Quote from: De_El
Next time, on QC Forums: someone embarrassingly reveals that they are a homophobe! Stay tuned to find out who!

tommydski

  • Awakened
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10,064
    • Pocket Jury
Re: ASBO = AAAAAAGH
« Reply #23 on: 26 Jul 2008, 17:16 »

I just wrote about a thousand words in reply before the preview froze and it dumped me back on the main page.

Hopefully I'll reply to this when I'm not absolutely livid about losing everything I just wrote.
Logged
Quote from: Ozymandias
One minute we're playing Mario Kart, the next my penis is in your mouth - it just happens.

Vendetagainst

  • Scrabble hacker
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,273
  • Too orangey for crows
Re: ASBO = AAAAAAGH
« Reply #24 on: 26 Jul 2008, 17:41 »

spitting in public is not a positively ghastly thing to do.

I routinely see people spit in public and I always think it should be a fined offense, like littering. People who spit in public are probably the same people who throw trash out their car window. Sending someone to jail for it is over the top though.

Ok, so spitting in public is pretty gross, but it is not the same as littering at all because it poses no environmental hazard of any sort. Before you make any argument on the basis of hygiene let me say that as a viscous fluid phlegm is far less likely to transfer germs to outside hosts then a sneeze or a cough
ASBOs are basically a good thing. The media always try and make the recipients out to be angels, but there is almost always a back story, often involving gangs of chavs, and the ASBO is simply there to prevent them from terrorising the general public. Essentially it is a contract, as long as the ASBOer behaves themselves and stops behaving like a toerag, they won't be carted off to jail

As far as I can tell Chavs are the English equivalent of the gangster wannabes that have no official title in the US. That makes them obnoxious as hell, of course, but targeting them as a subculture is still absolutely wrong. It makes me think of the Zoot Suit Riots.

"The oldest recipient of an order to date is an 87-year-old who among other things is forbidden from being sarcastic to his neighbours (July 2003). He was subsequently found guilty of breaking the terms of his order on three separate occasions. He awaits sentencing but the judge has already made it clear that "there will be no prison for an 88 year old man".
THAT is really fucking fucked up. A person should be able to say whatever the fuck they want as long as it not slanderous or the like.


America's got a myriad of major issues and fucked up social expectations, but we are still upholding the right of self-expression.

I think it's quite easy to read the Daily Mail and come to the conclusion that the evil labour government wants to turn Britain into a police state, but I have actually seen no evidence of that whatsoever in my life. I could not care less if there are a lot of security cameras in my town. It is a public place and thus people can see what I am up to, whether in person or via a camera. If I got mugged, the cameras might help find the chap who did it, which is a Good Thing as far as I can see.

It's the principle though. Citizens simply should not be presumptiously scrutinized by their government, it is supposed to be the other way around.


I also hate to be "that guy" (as retarded as that expression is), but cops simply should not have such ambiguously spelled out authority.
I am going to say this very slowly, because everybody's asshole-teenager-alert is going to be blaring when I say it, but it's still true. There are cops who target teenagers just the same as there are cops who target blacks and other minorities. I have never been arrested by a cop, I have respect for them, and I have never had any problems with them, but it is fact that some kids are going to be punished on unfair grounds for this reason.

*Edit*
I typed up this edit like three hours ago but forgot to save it. I guess it's not so relevant now but I'll post it anyway.
« Last Edit: 26 Jul 2008, 20:25 by Vendetagainst »
Logged
Quote from: Sox
I think it's because your 'age' is really only determined by how exasperated you seem when you have to stand up.

Quote from: KharBevNor
PEW PEW PEW FUCK OFF SPACE

tommydski

  • Awakened
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10,064
    • Pocket Jury
Re: ASBO = AAAAAAGH
« Reply #25 on: 26 Jul 2008, 18:19 »

The wording of those ASBOs says to me that there's much more to those cases than you can summarise with a single sentence chosen by groups which exist solely to discredit ASBOs. I guarantee there's more to each case than those glib statements. Those were probably cherry picked because they could easily be represented as examples which seem absolutely ridiculous if worded in a specific way. The people who called for those ASBOs had reasons, presumably. I'd love to hear what they were. I'll bet there was a shitload more to every single story reported. As has been discussed, hysteria sells a lot of newspapers and journalists need to make rent like everyone else.

Quote from: Vendetagainst
America's got a myriad of major issues and fucked up social expectations, but we are still upholding the right of self-expression.

Then throw yourself a fucking parade, Captain America. I'm sure that's massive consolation to the people of New Orleans, Iraq or Afghanistan.

Make your point but don't bring all that tedious nationality bullshit into this. I guarantee there's some shit on everyone's shoes if you look hard enough.
Logged
Quote from: Ozymandias
One minute we're playing Mario Kart, the next my penis is in your mouth - it just happens.

a pack of wolves

  • GET ON THE NIGHT TRAIN
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,663
Re: ASBO = AAAAAAGH
« Reply #26 on: 26 Jul 2008, 18:44 »

In order for the ASBO to have been put in place there has to have been something that caused "harassment, alarm or distress to one or more people who are not in the same household as the perpetrator", or at least a claim that this was caused. Even without knowing the back stories to the strange specific conditions of these ASBOs it's almost always possible to come up with a plausible explanation. But the explanations aren't the point. The strangeness and often innocuous nature of the things people are banned from doing highlights the fact that ASBOs have the power to turn anything into a crime, so long as it's requested by an approved body and agreed by a magistrate. I don't care why a magistrate thought it was acceptable to make spitting, wearing a golf glove or saying the word grass a crime, they should not have that kind of power and people should not be jailed for behaviour that can be perfectly innocent.
Logged
Quote from: De_El
Next time, on QC Forums: someone embarrassingly reveals that they are a homophobe! Stay tuned to find out who!

tommydski

  • Awakened
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10,064
    • Pocket Jury
Re: ASBO = AAAAAAGH
« Reply #27 on: 26 Jul 2008, 19:01 »

Without knowing the specifics of each case, we're making assumptions that their specific misdemeanours were mild. I honestly don't believe there are magistrates out there with hard-ons for ASBOs. I'm betting if we had a single conversation with any of the people involved in these ASBOs, we'd learn an awful lot about why they were issued. It's only an abuse of power if, y'know, there's been an abuse of power. I'm not comfortable with casting such aspersions from one inevitably biased source.

In the post I managed to delete I wrote a lot about whether or not these seemingly soft examples of ASBOs were an acceptable form of collateral damage if it allows the people who actually work day in, day out to keep the peace in a more effective and efficient manner. For all these apparently petty cases there will have been hundreds, probably thousands of ASBOs which prevented some thoroughly despicable people from sustained harassment of people who just want to live their lives and mind their own business. Personally my sympathy lies with the victims of these offenders rather than with people who repeatedly break the law in the face of several warnings. Frankly they can find a sponge and cry on it for all I care.
Logged
Quote from: Ozymandias
One minute we're playing Mario Kart, the next my penis is in your mouth - it just happens.

Vendetagainst

  • Scrabble hacker
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,273
  • Too orangey for crows
Re: ASBO = AAAAAAGH
« Reply #28 on: 26 Jul 2008, 19:04 »


Quote from: Vendetagainst
America's got a myriad of major issues and fucked up social expectations, but we are still upholding the right of self-expression.

Then throw yourself a fucking parade, Captain America. I'm sure that's massive consolation to the people of New Orleans, Iraq or Afghanistan.

Make your point but don't bring all that tedious nationality bullshit into this. I guarantee there's some shit on everyone's shoes if you look hard enough.

Sorry about the wording on that, it was more like a "we're still fucked up but at least we've got that going for us", I'm not trying to glorify my screwed up country
Logged
Quote from: Sox
I think it's because your 'age' is really only determined by how exasperated you seem when you have to stand up.

Quote from: KharBevNor
PEW PEW PEW FUCK OFF SPACE

Oli

  • Beyond Thunderdome
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 571
Re: ASBO = AAAAAAGH
« Reply #29 on: 26 Jul 2008, 19:05 »

"The oldest recipient of an order to date is an 87-year-old who among other things is forbidden from being sarcastic to his neighbours (July 2003). He was subsequently found guilty of breaking the terms of his order on three separate occasions. He awaits sentencing but the judge has already made it clear that "there will be no prison for an 88 year old man".
THAT is really fucking fucked up. A person should be able to say whatever the fuck they want as long as it not slanderous or the like.

Tommy's point aside let's assume that this is all the details of the case and presented exactly as it went down. That is one case in so many hundred and it is not really enough to discredit the entire idea of ASBOs. Obviously it's not an acceptable use of an ASBO but that is reason for a refinement in the law or the introduction of measures to combat these kind of ludicrous uses of the orders. You don't throw out your harvest because you find a weevil.

As I said earlier I do not think ASBOs are a particularly excellent way to go about reducing anti-social behaviour as it really seems like it is just going to breed resentment. My problem with a lot of the posts in this thread decrying the ASBO is the sheer ridiculousness that is behind their logic.

I do not really care what happens to people who spit in the street.

So you wouldn't mind if they got the death penalty?

I thought it was fairly clearly hyperbole. Maybe not, it is the internet after all.
Logged

tommydski

  • Awakened
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10,064
    • Pocket Jury
Re: ASBO = AAAAAAGH
« Reply #30 on: 26 Jul 2008, 19:06 »

Sorry about the wording on that, it was more like a "we're still fucked up but at least we've got that going for us", I'm not trying to glorify my screwed up country

Ah, sorry for being a hardass. I was still mad about losing all that fucking typing. My bad.
Logged
Quote from: Ozymandias
One minute we're playing Mario Kart, the next my penis is in your mouth - it just happens.

Vendetagainst

  • Scrabble hacker
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,273
  • Too orangey for crows
Re: ASBO = AAAAAAGH
« Reply #31 on: 26 Jul 2008, 19:08 »

no, I get it, that sorta shit's happened to me a couple of times too. Plus we're talking about politics, which pisses everybody off.
Logged
Quote from: Sox
I think it's because your 'age' is really only determined by how exasperated you seem when you have to stand up.

Quote from: KharBevNor
PEW PEW PEW FUCK OFF SPACE

a pack of wolves

  • GET ON THE NIGHT TRAIN
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,663
Re: ASBO = AAAAAAGH
« Reply #32 on: 26 Jul 2008, 19:32 »

Without knowing the specifics of each case, we're making assumptions that their specific misdemeanours were mild. I honestly don't believe there are magistrates out there with hard-ons for ASBOs. I'm betting if we had a single conversation with any of the people involved in these ASBOs, we'd learn an awful lot about why they were issued. It's only an abuse of power if, y'know, there's been an abuse of power. I'm not comfortable with casting such aspersions from one inevitably biased source.

I'm not suggesting the behaviour that led to any of these ASBOs was mild (although in many cases it is, non-aggressive begging for example). What I'm arguing is that the very fact that magistrates have the power to essentially invent new criminal offences as they see fit and apply them to members of the public without having to keep to the standards for evidence and privacy that exist for criminal offences is an abuse of power, no matter the justification. As for magistrates being keen to use ASBOs, they're encouraged to be by government policy and strong recommendation (as well as police forces and local councils being encouraged to apply for them). It's been very heavily promoted as a tactic, and very few ASBOs are indeed turned down.

In the post I managed to delete I wrote a lot about whether or not these seemingly soft examples of ASBOs were an acceptable form of collateral damage if it allows the people who actually work day in, day out to keep the peace in a more effective and efficient manner. For all these apparently petty cases there will have been hundreds, probably thousands of ASBOs which prevented some thoroughly despicable people from sustained harassment of people who just want to live their lives and mind their own business. Personally my sympathy lies with the victims of these offenders rather than with people who repeatedly break the law in the face of several warnings. Frankly they can find a sponge and cry on it for all I care.

I should admit, I've never been a fan of accepting collateral damage, I have no moral problem with someone breaking the law when the law is unjust nor do I think increased punishment will ever reduce crime without an unacceptable level of population control. Regrettably we have already reached and long since passed an unacceptable level of population control without even the benefit of less violence, it clearly seems an ineffective tactic regardless of the moral implications. I'm not willing to allow the state the power to make things like free association of individuals in public or the freedom to walk through public spaces a crime just because of the hope it will make this country a nicer place to live. It won't, and that is too much of a loss of liberty even if it did.
Logged
Quote from: De_El
Next time, on QC Forums: someone embarrassingly reveals that they are a homophobe! Stay tuned to find out who!

JediBendu

  • Furry furrier
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 191
Re: ASBO = AAAAAAGH
« Reply #33 on: 26 Jul 2008, 22:36 »

I may just be reiterating what someone else has said differently, but I think everybody needs to realize how different the cultures of America and Britain truly are. We have very different expectations both socially in general and when it comes to public decency. Forgive us Americans when we see an example of one of these orders that would never fly in most places in America (or really just the whole system might not fly too well in America), since it's an infringement on our constitutional rights. That's pretty much basic fact in a lot of these more ludicrous cases (or actually, if all of them are served for non-criminal or otherwise mild acts, then I would say the entire system is unconstitutional by our standards). Most Americans are taught to value their constitutional rights highly, which doesn't make us better than you at all, we just truly have a hard time imagining other systems sometimes, especially when faced with a culture like the British who are by and large considerably more polite than us rude and crude Americans.

That being said, there are methods that the American legal system uses to accomplish some of the same things as in these orders, but they require a truly criminal act to trigger them. If the young man who was prohibited from displaying his gang's name was in America, he probably would never be prohibited from displaying the name, instead, he would simply be profiled and watched by the cops. This is another issue altogether.

Some of the cases seem similar to just basic probation, but probation usually requires a truly criminal act and conviction.

Disrupting class is a matter that's entirely up to the school in question, and not any higher government. I don't believe disrupting class is a criminal act.

Spitting you can maybe make a case for, as it could potentially violate some form of public cleanliness thing, kind of like public urination or ejaculation is sort of frowned upon. But, it's made out in this instance to be more of a "it's unbecoming and not polite." Which it may or may not be.
« Last Edit: 26 Jul 2008, 22:43 by JediBendu »
Logged

Dimmukane

  • Vulcan 3-D Chess Master
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3,734
  • juicer
Re: ASBO = AAAAAAGH
« Reply #34 on: 26 Jul 2008, 22:55 »

This is an example of asinine policing in the States.  I'm not going to argue over the rights of citizens on either side of the Atlantic, because every now and then their rights are infringed upon without reasonable cause anyway.  This is not the fault of the laws passed, but rather the people who misinterpret them and/or try to use them to their advantage.  I like to think that these kinds of arrests are a result of those people who either work for the law and don't understand it, or see the law as a loophole to manipulate.

I'm fairly sure that no one really foresaw this stuff happening when they wrote these laws, I can only hope it works itself out.
Logged
Quote from: Johnny C
all clothes reflect identity constructs, destroy these constructs by shedding your clothes and sending pictures of the process to the e-mail address linked under my avatar

JediBendu

  • Furry furrier
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 191
Re: ASBO = AAAAAAGH
« Reply #35 on: 26 Jul 2008, 23:11 »

I definitely agree that there's ridiculous rulings here in America as well, but they usually are rooted in some form of bastardization of an actual punishable law (like, in the case of that child, assault) while these ASBOs are by definition simply punishment for "anti-social behavior". Essentially what I'm saying is that the concept of ASBOs is just a concept that is slightly inconceivable to most Americans.
Logged

Vendetagainst

  • Scrabble hacker
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,273
  • Too orangey for crows
Re: ASBO = AAAAAAGH
« Reply #36 on: 26 Jul 2008, 23:25 »

That's a pretty good description of the American legal system: a bastardization of a pretty nice thing, which is in part due to our outrageous affection for suing people.
Logged
Quote from: Sox
I think it's because your 'age' is really only determined by how exasperated you seem when you have to stand up.

Quote from: KharBevNor
PEW PEW PEW FUCK OFF SPACE

snalin

  • Vulcan 3-D Chess Master
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3,567
  • You may Baste me
Re: ASBO = AAAAAAGH
« Reply #37 on: 27 Jul 2008, 04:12 »

For all these apparently petty cases there will have been hundreds, probably thousands of ASBOs which prevented some thoroughly despicable people from sustained harassment of people who just want to live their lives and mind their own business.

So what? This isn't really about how this law is used, but how it can be used. If you can abuse ASBOs, then they are a bad idea, period. I believe getting a fair trial is a part of, I dunno, human rights? There is always someone that wants to abuse power, that believes that he/she has the right, as police/politican/whatever to put the ones that deserve it in jail. If you give them a tool to do that, you are effectively taking away the rights of your citizens.
Logged
I am a cowboy / on a steel horse I ride
I am wanted / Dead or alive

waterloosunset

  • Bizarre cantaloupe phobia
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 223
Re: ASBO = AAAAAAGH
« Reply #38 on: 27 Jul 2008, 04:45 »

 

So what? This isn't really about how this law is used, but how it can be used. If you can abuse ASBOs, then they are a bad idea, period. I believe getting a fair trial is a part of, I dunno, human rights? There is always someone that wants to abuse power, that believes that he/she has the right, as police/politican/whatever to put the ones that deserve it in jail. If you give them a tool to do that, you are effectively taking away the rights of your citizens.

anyone who goes through a magistrates court can request a jury trial, but it costs time and money so most people don't bother, especially for trivial offences. ASBOs are very rarely abused, the three cases shown will all have a back story. the farmer's animals were causing damage and he failed to control them. the old man was likely verbally harrassing his neighbours, and i remember reading how the boy playing football often broke windows and actively kicked the ball at passers by.

and spitting can spread some diseases such as TB, and during the SARs scare was banned in parts  of East Asia as a form of transmission
Logged

a pack of wolves

  • GET ON THE NIGHT TRAIN
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,663
Re: ASBO = AAAAAAGH
« Reply #39 on: 27 Jul 2008, 06:06 »

Since the imposition of an ASBO is a civil proceeding despite the breach of the ASBO being a criminal offence there appears to be no right to have a jury determine whether or not the imposition of an ASBO is appropriate. You do have a right to have a jury present when it is determined if you breached the ASBO but by then the new crimes have already been created. You can appeal against an ASBO though, as ten protesters given an ASBO in 2006 for disrupting the DSEi arms fair successfully did. However, since ASBOs are targeted at the poorest sections of society and this is a costly endeavour that is not a viable option for most people who have one served against them.

As for spitting, coughing and sneezing are much more infectious. Do we ASBO people with a cold? You're quite right about there being back stories to these ASBOs, and that one probably involves spitting at people. Nevertheless, if that person has a chest cold, coughs up some phlegm and spits it then they would be committing a criminal offence. And speaking of back stories to ASBOs, according to research by BIBIC (British Institute for Brain Injured Children) they published as part of their Ain't Misbehavin' campaign (http://www.bibic.org.uk/newsite/general/campaigns.htm) over 30% of children who have ASBOs have some form of diagnosed mental disorder or an accepted learning difficulty (and of course that doesn't cover people who have undiagnosed mental disorders). These include autism and children with mental ages lower than ten (ten being the youngest age an ASBO can be served), which calls into question whether everyone served with an ASBO can understand what has happened and the new things that are now criminal offences for them.
« Last Edit: 27 Jul 2008, 06:09 by a pack of wolves »
Logged
Quote from: De_El
Next time, on QC Forums: someone embarrassingly reveals that they are a homophobe! Stay tuned to find out who!

jhocking

  • Methuselah's mentor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5,414
  • Corruption City USA
    • new|Arteest
Re: ASBO = AAAAAAGH
« Reply #40 on: 27 Jul 2008, 07:16 »

Ok, so spitting in public is pretty gross, but it is not the same as littering at all because it poses no environmental hazard of any sort.

No I suppose it isn't the same as littering. Hm, I guess I better cancel the petition I was gonna send around.

tommydski

  • Awakened
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10,064
    • Pocket Jury
Re: ASBO = AAAAAAGH
« Reply #41 on: 27 Jul 2008, 07:58 »

So what? This isn't really about how this law is used, but how it can be used. If you can abuse ASBOs, then they are a bad idea, period. I believe getting a fair trial is a part of, I dunno, human rights? There is always someone that wants to abuse power, that believes that he/she has the right, as police/politician/whatever to put the ones that deserve it in jail. If you give them a tool to do that, you are effectively taking away the rights of your citizens.

The people who are repeatedly breaking the law at the expense of people who want to live their lives without fear or intimidation is a bigger breach of the rights of our citizens. That's why ASBOs were introduced. These are minority examples chosen specifically with the intent of good copy by people who have an active interest in public hysteria. Innocent people have been tried through the courts using the traditional system of justice but it doesn't mean we should pack that up too. It doesn't work like that. Expecting a one hundred percent success rate for everything is absolutely unrealistic.

Quote
I may just be reiterating what someone else has said differently, but I think everybody needs to realize how different the cultures of America and Britain truly are. We have very different expectations both socially in general and when it comes to public decency. Forgive us Americans when we see an example of one of these orders that would never fly in most places in America (or really just the whole system might not fly too well in America), since it's an infringement on our constitutional rights.

As a breach of human rights these relatively minor and isolated incidents are not quite on the same scale as say, The Patriot Act or Guantanamo Bay. Could I write a compelling story on these topics if I had the inclination to do so? What about the fact that one percent of the adult population of America is in jail? I think you could make a pretty good story out of that too.

Logged
Quote from: Ozymandias
One minute we're playing Mario Kart, the next my penis is in your mouth - it just happens.

JediBendu

  • Furry furrier
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 191
Re: ASBO = AAAAAAGH
« Reply #42 on: 27 Jul 2008, 08:20 »


As a breach of human rights these relatively minor and isolated incidents are not quite on the same scale as say, The Patriot Act or Guantanamo Bay. Could I write a compelling story on these topics if I had the inclination to do so? What about the fact that one percent of the adult population of America is in jail? I think you could make a pretty good story out of that too.



Once again, this is an entirely different issue altogether. When discussing ASBOs it is completely ridiculous to bring up problems in America like The Patriot Act or Guantanamo Bay. I don't think I even have to get into all the reasons why these are completely different discussions, and I think it would be a good idea for you to drop this fruitless line of reasoning. This isn't about "Who's worse? No you!" this is about ASBOs. Go ahead and make a topic about the Patriot Act or the American prison system (which has more to do with our class and social system in my mind than with a particularly broken form or prosecution save a few) or Guantanamo Bay. I'm sure we can all talk about that.

No offense Tommy but I'm kind of blown away by how silly that last response was. Surely you're intelligent enough to realize that you're only needlessly escalating a discussion's tension, when I was simply trying to lower it back down?

Forgive me if I've overestimated you.
Logged

Oli

  • Beyond Thunderdome
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 571
Re: ASBO = AAAAAAGH
« Reply #43 on: 27 Jul 2008, 09:10 »

Ok, so spitting in public is pretty gross, but it is not the same as littering at all because it poses no environmental hazard of any sort.

No I suppose it isn't the same as littering. Hm, I guess I better cancel the petition I was gonna send around.

You'll get an ASBO for that response, Mr. Hocking.

Once again, this is an entirely different issue altogether. When discussing ASBOs it is completely ridiculous to bring up problems in America like The Patriot Act or Guantanamo Bay.

I don't think Tommy was saying that because ASBOs are not as bad as Guantanamo Bay Britain is better than America. It is very reasonable to assume that no-one posting here is a moron.

As for spitting, coughing and sneezing are much more infectious. Do we ASBO people with a cold? You're quite right about there being back stories to these ASBOs, and that one probably involves spitting at people. Nevertheless, if that person has a chest cold, coughs up some phlegm and spits it then they would be committing a criminal offence. .

This is the thing. Spitting in the street is not a criminal offence because someone got an ASBO for spitting in public. The idea with ASBOs is that they are not universal laws. This means that, if used properly, they can be applied  fairly. If the police come to a party in my flat because of the noise levels they are not going to give me an ASBO for it, nor are they going to drag me to court over it. They will come in and ask who the residents of the flat are and then ask us to turn the noise down. If this were to happen every single week then I'd be in danger of getting an ASBO.

So basically if you cough up a lung in the street people might look at you a little disgusted but the chances of you being given an anti-social behaviour order are about the same as the chances of you winning my heart by serenading my window on a moonlit night with James Blunt's "You're Beautiful".

I think everyone has to remember that the British police are, by and large, reasonable people. It is pretty easy to claim that people in authority are all mindless, soulless drones but it is also something that a 15 year old would do. While I don't neccessarily agree with this idea of authority I do think it is unfair to see police officers as anything but another person wearing a uniform. The police are really not out to get you. (Sting might be)
Logged

tommydski

  • Awakened
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10,064
    • Pocket Jury
Re: ASBO = AAAAAAGH
« Reply #44 on: 27 Jul 2008, 09:27 »

Quote from: jediBendu
Once again, this is an entirely different issue altogether.

I'm actually making the same point as you. Furthermore, I'm not being inflammatory, I'm responding to very specific posts made in this thread. All of them are valid responses to posts made by other people. That's why I quote them. Read the quotes, then my comments and they match up equally in tone and subject.

Personally, I agree that it was silly to drag nationality into this because it is irrelevant. I already stated as much earlier in this thread (albeit a bit gruffly, for which I apologised to Vendetagainst) but if people keep putting it back on the table, it is perfectly acceptable to provide examples which might be closer to your home. By bringing up Guantanamo Bay (definitely the most well known and flagrant breach of human rights on that side of the pond) I am merely hoping that people might see that there are parallels in every country. The difference isn't important here, it's the points these contentious issues have in common. Specifically, that they are astoundingly complex matters which cannot be summarised by a cursory viewing from one source which has an obvious bias.
Logged
Quote from: Ozymandias
One minute we're playing Mario Kart, the next my penis is in your mouth - it just happens.

JediBendu

  • Furry furrier
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 191
Re: ASBO = AAAAAAGH
« Reply #45 on: 27 Jul 2008, 09:34 »

I understand that, but I myself was simply trying to provide the British in this thread (and perhaps the American who don't realize how they sound) why exactly an American responds the way they do to the concept of an ASBO. The only reason I bring nationality into it is to highlight to everyone how we all, culturally, will see this in different lights.

Guantanamo Bay is a breach of basic human rights and not a breach of an American's constitutional rights (which, is what an American would see these ASBOs as), so the Patriot Act is a more parallel parallel to ASBOs. But the manner that the Patriot Act was passed in this country and presented to the American public is so different it's still not very parallel to an American looking at an ASBO from outside either.
Logged

tommydski

  • Awakened
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10,064
    • Pocket Jury
Re: ASBO = AAAAAAGH
« Reply #46 on: 27 Jul 2008, 09:49 »

Your point was a fair one.

In an attempt to clarify once more, the shared ground is more to do with perception than with specific details. As you said previously, I could definitely start a thread on The Patriot Act. I have Google like everyone else. I can find the fiercest criticism of the incumbent administration and assume that in every instance the worst case scenario is the rule, regardless of the source or motive of such comments. Any misunderstanding on my part would be a direct result of my own lack of vision and investigation into either sides of the debate. That's the parallel here.
Logged
Quote from: Ozymandias
One minute we're playing Mario Kart, the next my penis is in your mouth - it just happens.

snalin

  • Vulcan 3-D Chess Master
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3,567
  • You may Baste me
Re: ASBO = AAAAAAGH
« Reply #47 on: 27 Jul 2008, 11:08 »

anyone who goes through a magistrates court can request a jury trial, but it costs time and money so most people don't bother, especially for trivial offences.

errr, this:

Since the imposition of an ASBO is a civil proceeding despite the breach of the ASBO being a criminal offence there appears to be no right to have a jury determine whether or not the imposition of an ASBO is appropriate.

First of all, a jury that sees that jailing someone for repeatedly wearing a golf glove is stupid, must still send someone to jail for this. They will not be asked "is this a crime?", but "has this person participated in a crime a magistrate has invented?"

Clearly the "but it costs time and money" causes this to law to target poor people. If you cannot afford a jury, you don't get one? what kind of system is that?


Another point: http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200405/cmselect/cmhaff/80/80we20.htm

Look at case #6 (scroll down a bit) sentence 2. "The Order had been made in the youth's absence without his being able to give his side of the story (one of the main concerns about ASBOs and one that can lead to misuse)."

Someone can walk into a magistrate court, say "this person is bothering me", and get an ABSO thrown at that person. That isn't much different from a quarrel between neighbours in the old Soviet ending in one part going to the authorities and telling all about the capitalistic ways of the neighbour. Well, exept from the prisson camps and torture, but still. And I see a lot of cases preventing young people from hanging out with three people at the same time. How will this not ruin that youths social life? For ever?

These ABSOs are obviously already being abused some places, and with a bit of imagination,. you can see how badly they can be abused. The way to deal with gangs is NOT to put them in jail, and you will not prevent begging by putting beggars in jail. But this is exactly what ABSOs is doing.
Logged
I am a cowboy / on a steel horse I ride
I am wanted / Dead or alive

tommydski

  • Awakened
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10,064
    • Pocket Jury
Re: ASBO = AAAAAAGH
« Reply #48 on: 27 Jul 2008, 11:28 »

I definitely feel like some people here aren't giving due thought to the difficulty of policing a country of sixty million people in eighty one thousand square miles.

It's easy to criticise but what is much harder is finding solutions. I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that the professionals responsible for enforcing and creating legislation have given these concerns a certain amount of thought. I think the people who have first-hand experience of actually doing the job have some legitimate motives for taking this course of action. To assume that you know better than these people based on a handful of hits from a search engine is mind blowing.
Logged
Quote from: Ozymandias
One minute we're playing Mario Kart, the next my penis is in your mouth - it just happens.

supersheep

  • Scrabble hacker
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,276
  • you'll have to speak up, i'm a fish and lack ears
Re: ASBO = AAAAAAGH
« Reply #49 on: 27 Jul 2008, 12:21 »

Thing is, there are more efficient methods of reducing crime. ASBOs tackle the symptoms, but what you need to do is tackle the causes. One way of doing this comes out of the "Broken Window" theory - that broken windows lead people to think that anything goes. By clamping down on minor crimes, major crimes drop hugely. All this without having to criminalise behaviour that is not criminal, but annoying.
Alternatively, how about tackling the root issues that cause crime: social deprivation, poor access to education, low employment, and so on? Obviously, I'm not going to propose a solution to how the British government can do this - I'm not a sociologist or a social worker who can plan all this out. I do know it's possible, though.
Also, any ASBO that prohibits someone from hanging around with other teens is an abuse of human rights. Period. Even if they were shown to be 100% effective, I'd be against them for this reason. As for collateral damage, I can't agree with that either. Better that 100 guilty men walk free than an innocent man hang, as the saying goes. People are people, even when they're making people suffer. You can't throw away the rights of a few who aren't doing anything illegal to safeguard the pleasure of the many.
As for legitimate motives for these laws, might I suggest the desire to appear tough on crime? In the past few elections, the major parties in the UK (and in Ireland too) have been going on about how they are tough on crime, how their actions will make crime less bad and the other parties' will make it worse. Criminalising this kind of thing is a great way of seeming tough on crime without having to invest much time, money, or thought.
Logged
DJ Weight Problem: if you think semantics isn't that important maybe you should just can dig four banana nine jenkins razor blade dinosaur
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up