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Author Topic: Pill mimics exercise  (Read 8225 times)

famous

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Pill mimics exercise
« on: 01 Aug 2008, 13:00 »

Hey everyone,
I just came across this article:

http://www.medbroadcast.com/channel_health_news_details.asp?news_id=15881&rss=67&rid=999999&channel_id=1055&rot=3

and the idea that they could adapt this from mice to humans scares the hell out of me. I am convinced if made accessible to masses it would very well be a huge push for society in the direction of "I deserve things without earning them" leading towards nothing good. I can see how a pill like this would be awesome for certain situations like bedridden or coma patients to stop muscle atrophy and the other things mentioned in the article, but more it just seems like justification and endorsement of a society of over-indulgence.

That said dude's gonna make billions if they figure it out.

Thoughts?
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RedLion

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Re: Pill mimics exercise
« Reply #1 on: 01 Aug 2008, 13:06 »

This makes me kind of apprehensive. I really just don't like the idea of people getting the benefits of working out without actually having to work out. It'll just encourage sloth and inaction. The fact that it also makes it possible for a person to run faster, longer than a person who doesn't take it seems to bode ill for sports, although I'd have to confess that I'm enticed by the idea of being able to run longer when I'm exercising.
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jhocking

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Re: Pill mimics exercise
« Reply #2 on: 01 Aug 2008, 13:30 »

I can see how a pill like this would be awesome for certain situations like bedridden or coma patients to stop muscle atrophy and the other things mentioned in the article

Actually, the article specifically ruled out the pill being useful in those situations:

"But Eric Hoffman of the Children's National Medical Center in Washington, D.C., noted that AICAR mimics only aerobic exercise, not the strength training that might be more useful to bedridden people or the elderly"

What exactly that means in terms of heart health I don't know. After all, at it's core the benefit of aerobic exercise is strengthening the heart muscles. So what exactly does the pill do, anyway? The article is pretty vague; I mean, it states that the pill increases endurance, but makes little to no mention of any other benefits from exercise.


The only other benefit from exercise the article mentions is weight loss, and on that point I definitely feel like this pill would be a bad thing, and I speak from recent experience. For years I hadn't exercised, because the only reason to exercise I ever heard was for weight loss, and quite frankly I have no need to lose weight. However, I've recently become more aware of the importance of everything else you gain from exercise, and so I've recently started exercising regularly.

That's the potential problem: people think taking the pill is a replacement for exercise, and as a result they never exercise and the general health of the population declines. Certainly, quotes like the guy in the article saying "We have exercise in a pill" are more than a little irresponsible.
« Last Edit: 01 Aug 2008, 13:39 by jhocking »
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Re: Pill mimics exercise
« Reply #3 on: 01 Aug 2008, 13:46 »

Exactly. Half of the point of exercising is the mental health benefits.
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Re: Pill mimics exercise
« Reply #4 on: 01 Aug 2008, 14:12 »

Having recently watched Hannibal Rising, I thought you were saying that you'd eat people taking the pill.
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Re: Pill mimics exercise
« Reply #5 on: 01 Aug 2008, 14:45 »

Jogging is fun. But I don't know, if you take this pill to help you work out harder, will you get more benefits from the work-out?
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Ozymandias

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Re: Pill mimics exercise
« Reply #6 on: 01 Aug 2008, 14:49 »

My interpretation was that it mimics the effects of having exercised more, to allow for better exercising. Like someone who uses it could run two miles where normally they could only run one. There is, however, no actual health benefit to just taking it on its own.
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snalin

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Re: Pill mimics exercise
« Reply #7 on: 01 Aug 2008, 15:04 »

Taking them while exercising?

I think that would be the equivalent of double-dropping or something.

This was the one I was reffering to:

"They also report that in mice that did exercise training, a second drug made their workout much more effective at boosting endurance. After a month of taking that drug and exercising, mice could run 68 per cent longer and 70 per cent farther than other mice that exercised but didn't get the drug. "
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Re: Pill mimics exercise
« Reply #8 on: 01 Aug 2008, 15:37 »

so it's like an excercise-enhancer?

that doesn't sound so bad.
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Re: Pill mimics exercise
« Reply #9 on: 01 Aug 2008, 16:54 »

If it makes you feel better, it causes massive diarrhea and anal leakage.
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Re: Pill mimics exercise
« Reply #10 on: 01 Aug 2008, 16:59 »

what

Good god, I missed that part.

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Re: Pill mimics exercise
« Reply #11 on: 01 Aug 2008, 19:23 »

Increased endurance and increased shitting activity?

I am not seeing a downside here
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Re: Pill mimics exercise
« Reply #12 on: 01 Aug 2008, 20:14 »

Only concerns I'd have about such a thing are the regular vanilla questions about safety and efficacy. The rest of the objections I'm hearing are all along the lines of the same logic that concludes "Well, wearing a seatbelt just encourages people to think they're already doing enough for their safety." Even if some segment of people do end up thinking that way I'd still support people being allowed to use the drug in a responsible manner.
« Last Edit: 01 Aug 2008, 20:15 by Whipstitch »
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Thlayli

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Re: Pill mimics exercise
« Reply #13 on: 01 Aug 2008, 20:24 »

So, am I the only one that thought of Phantom Limb from Venture Brothers when this hit the news?
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Re: Pill mimics exercise
« Reply #14 on: 02 Aug 2008, 00:46 »

I personally love the idea of something like that... I enjoy kickboxing, and all associated activities, I enjoy sprints but I hate long distance. Unfortunately when training to fight I am expected to run. Also, my dogs would greatly appreciate being run. So anything that could make running less incredibly unpleasant would be welcomed by moi  :-P

Still, I'd like to know how this is supposed to work  :?
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Re: Pill mimics exercise
« Reply #15 on: 02 Aug 2008, 01:02 »

From what I'm reading, it's not really an effective substitute for excercise - what it seems to do is strain your heart in the manner that exercise would, which would improve endurance and burn either carbohydrates or fat, depending on the intensity of the pill, but your muscles/lungs would see no benefit at all. Traditional exercise will still be the way to go.
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Patrick

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Re: Pill mimics exercise
« Reply #16 on: 02 Aug 2008, 04:16 »

Jogging is fun. But I don't know, if you take this pill to help you work out harder, will you get more benefits from the work-out?

Just because your body is working more efficiently doesn't mean you can't tear muscle and damage joints and bones, and we all know there will be Einsteins who will push themselves too hard and wind up causing permanent and crippling damage to themselves. That alone is a strong enough cause for concern.

I were in charge of the pharmaceutical company's legal department (assuming such a 'workout enhancing' drug were to be made publicly available), I'd make sure the warning label was the size and clarity of a billboard advert.
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jimbunny

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Re: Pill mimics exercise
« Reply #17 on: 02 Aug 2008, 04:25 »

Next on the docket: sex in a can.
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Patrick

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Re: Pill mimics exercise
« Reply #18 on: 02 Aug 2008, 04:29 »

Next on the docket: sex in a can.

Oof, poor product naming. Might offend ex-cons.

(goddammit why did Davida make me watch "How High", now that's the only kind of humor I am capable of)
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Re: Pill mimics exercise
« Reply #19 on: 03 Aug 2008, 02:37 »

Next on the docket: sex in a can.

We already have those. They're called flesh lights.
But that requires effort!!! Not that I think orally administered orgasms (ie: pills, not tongue work) would be worth skipping all the rest  :-P
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Re: Pill mimics exercise
« Reply #20 on: 03 Aug 2008, 16:45 »

Man, when I saw the title of this thread I immediately thought it was spam.  After looking at the dodgy medical news site I am still not entirely sure that I was incorrect, but whatever.
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Re: Pill mimics exercise
« Reply #21 on: 03 Aug 2008, 16:46 »

Oh also, I would take this pill if I was a fatty.
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famous

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Re: Pill mimics exercise
« Reply #22 on: 03 Aug 2008, 17:07 »

Thinking about it some more it would be kind of cool if things advanced so that everyone took this pill as a daily vitamin...people might lose out on the mental discipline that you get from regular exercise and all that, but then everyone could focus on other things. Like how the States was all "NO ARMY!" to Japan after the second great war and then they were all lolz and proceeded to put all their focus on technology and their economy.
We could (potentially) focus on being 'academic weight lifters' and champions of the 'education marathon of life' without becoming weak little bitches.
What I'm trying to say is that this would lead to a holodeck being invented a lot quicker. And porn technology has never needed anything like it's needed a holodeck.
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Patrick

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Re: Pill mimics exercise
« Reply #23 on: 04 Aug 2008, 01:40 »

Nothing like sticking your dick inside a bunch of light particles. After many attempts I only wound up with a sunburn. Damn you, sun!
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Fenriswolf

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Re: Pill mimics exercise
« Reply #24 on: 04 Aug 2008, 03:25 »

Nothing like sticking your dick inside a bunch of light particles. After many attempts I only wound up with a sunburn. Damn you, sun!
*shakes head*Ohhhh, that's a spectacular degree of tackiness.
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Re: Pill mimics exercise
« Reply #25 on: 04 Aug 2008, 07:36 »

Pharmaceutical abuse has been going way longer than that.
People who take ADD medicine to be able to cram all night do the same thing - the easy way out.

Of course, if you trick your body with chemistry (like alcohol) and in return get super smart / fit / funny, intelligent, invincible, invisible -
something inevitably fucks up if you overdo it.
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famous

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Re: Pill mimics exercise
« Reply #26 on: 04 Aug 2008, 22:10 »

What I'm trying to say is that this would lead to a holodeck being invented a lot quicker. And porn technology has never needed anything like it's needed a holodeck.

http://www.nebusiness.co.uk/business-news/latest-business-news/2008/07/31/paassion-for-virtual-tale-gets-team-noticed-51140-21437909/

it begins!
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Re: Pill mimics exercise
« Reply #27 on: 05 Aug 2008, 04:05 »

Oh no! This is terrifying!

God forbid that science make people healthier!
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Re: Pill mimics exercise
« Reply #28 on: 05 Aug 2008, 07:57 »

http://www.nebusiness.co.uk/business-news/latest-business-news/2008/07/31/paassion-for-virtual-tale-gets-team-noticed-51140-21437909/

oo thanks for the link. I'd seen a talk from those guys a few years ago at a conference, now I wanna see this new system of theirs.

Patrick

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Re: Pill mimics exercise
« Reply #29 on: 06 Aug 2008, 02:51 »

Oh no! This is terrifying!

God forbid that science make people healthier!

That's the shitty thing, man. What others could use in order to lead normal lives (the whole point of medicine) could easily be abused. But damned if it wouldn't really fuckin' rock for a lot of people.

in b4 circular discussion
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Re: Pill mimics exercise
« Reply #30 on: 07 Aug 2008, 01:43 »

People already use anabolic steroids, protein supplements, muscle growth formulas and goodness knows what else as a shortcut to a certain type of physical fitness. Just because this pill promotes aerobic fitness, rather than muscle strength, is no reason to suddenly bring about fucking stupid faux-moralising bitching and moaning about people 'losing the connection between effort and reward'. What utter luddite bullshit. You might as well say washing machines make people unable to appreciate clean clothes, or that fire makes people unable to appreciate raw mammoth. Jesus.
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Re: Pill mimics exercise
« Reply #31 on: 07 Aug 2008, 01:55 »













sorry
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Ozymandias

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Re: Pill mimics exercise
« Reply #32 on: 07 Aug 2008, 02:02 »

You are such a nerd.

Also, the Adipose babies were adorable.
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Re: Pill mimics exercise
« Reply #33 on: 07 Aug 2008, 03:08 »

People already use anabolic steroids

So this justifies a more lax policy toward another performance-enhancing drug? I fail to see why.

I'm not saying NO NO NO. I'm saying that the world should be careful with that shit.
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Re: Pill mimics exercise
« Reply #34 on: 07 Aug 2008, 03:27 »

But do you still get the endorphin rush from this pill? Because that's the only thing exercise seems to have over this pill at the moment.
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Re: Pill mimics exercise
« Reply #35 on: 07 Aug 2008, 04:21 »

If the chap leading this research says ""honestly, I just don't know how that happens...I think it's a small miracle it happened at all." Then he is either the most honest scientist ever or he knows that his findings are shaky and is genuinely clueless. Mostly these types are pretty keen to hail their findings as the biggest thing since vaccinations. This is going to take years of work in mice before he knows exactly what's going on, then more years to make sure it's safe and actually works before human testing is even suggested.

The report seems to suggest that the effects are a) aerobic and b) muscular in nature. This is a funny combination because one would normally expect either aerobic stuff to happen in the cardiovascular system, whilst things that build muscle mass and strength are largely anaerobic. The increase in endurance suggests to me that the drug acts to decrease the rate at which muscles tire, so that could be a few things. An increase in the number of energy producing elements (mitochondria) in the muscle cells would probably not help much without a similar increase in sugar and oxygen supply, which would mean an improved blood supply to the muscles. A drug that does both of these things without any other effect in the body does not seem likely. The physical movement of a muscle fibre is determined by calcium ions, the lack or depletion of which is what causes cramp and muscle stiffness. A way to increase the recycling of calcium would increase endurance, by holding off fatigue for a while. This would be similar to the gradual effects experienced by, say, someone training for a marathon.

Crucially, though, (bearing in mind that the actual drug is most likely none of these things) the human body, particularly under stress, is horrendously complicated and I am quite skeptical about the ability of one drug to dramatically increase endurance. The act of exercise requires the cooperation of hundreds of different pathways and chain reactions, all controlled by wildly different elements. Even were it able to, the benefits of increased muscular endurance would only be apparent in someone with already developed cardiovascular endurance, muscular mass, physical fitness etc. associated with being generally fit and doing exercise in the first place.
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famous

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Re: Pill mimics exercise
« Reply #36 on: 07 Aug 2008, 08:11 »

People already use anabolic steroids, protein supplements, muscle growth formulas and goodness knows what else as a shortcut to a certain type of physical fitness. Just because this pill promotes aerobic fitness, rather than muscle strength, is no reason to suddenly bring about fucking stupid faux-moralising bitching and moaning about people 'losing the connection between effort and reward'. What utter luddite bullshit. You might as well say washing machines make people unable to appreciate clean clothes, or that fire makes people unable to appreciate raw mammoth. Jesus.

My goodness, it appears you feel strongly about this.
Here's my train of thought: I don't think that the comparison between steroids/supplements/etc and this pill is completely fair, because for or the most part the former are used by weight lifters and athletes. They're designed to work for people who are already at the gym and working out.
This pill is being promoted in the article as 'exercise in a pill' for people who don't want to go work out. So there's definitely a difference between getting results faster at the gym and getting results without doing anything.

My issue with this wasn't that I was worried people would lose the connection between effort and reward, but that it could easily further encourage consumerism, over-indulgence, and the fast food lifestyle and that all that shiz, which I can't see being good in any way.

I do agree that not having to exercise and go to the gym frees up a lot more time enabling people to focus on other things, like the washing machine did, and will probably help people be healthier overall and live longer. But if it does more than free up time for people its implications should be looked at closely. A psychological dependency on these things is very easy to imagine.

@Peet
Have you heard of "the glove"? It's a DARPA project (I think), I read an article about it a while ago. They have a container you put your hand in and it cools down your blood as it circulates to your hand and out and enables prolonged physical activity. They were saying that it could be crazy because it suggest that muscle fatigue is brought on by heightened body temperature, not necessarily a depletion in glucose (Glucose? I'm not overly familiar with this stuff). I can try to find the article again if you haven't seen it...
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Re: Pill mimics exercise
« Reply #37 on: 07 Aug 2008, 14:23 »

People already use anabolic steroids, protein supplements, muscle growth formulas and goodness knows what else as a shortcut to a certain type of physical fitness. Just because this pill promotes aerobic fitness, rather than muscle strength, is no reason to suddenly bring about fucking stupid faux-moralising bitching and moaning about people 'losing the connection between effort and reward'. What utter luddite bullshit. You might as well say washing machines make people unable to appreciate clean clothes, or that fire makes people unable to appreciate raw mammoth. Jesus.

Instant gratification is the name of the game of modern society. I don't think that's a positive thing. Things like this should be developed and made available for usage. There's no reason for them not to. But so many people, particularly people my age, don't seem to understand the concept of working towards something. I'd say that your examples of other innovations aren't comparable. Those things still require some level of effort for a payout. Taking a pill and getting the benefits of extended aerobic exercise and weight lifting just strikes me as undeserved and kind of sad. You can say it's faux-moralising, but it's a legitimate concern.
« Last Edit: 07 Aug 2008, 14:31 by RedLion »
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Re: Pill mimics exercise
« Reply #38 on: 07 Aug 2008, 14:56 »

Why cant people just get off of their lazy asses?
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Re: Pill mimics exercise
« Reply #39 on: 07 Aug 2008, 16:36 »

Because it's really quite comfortable down here thank you very much!
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Re: Pill mimics exercise
« Reply #40 on: 07 Aug 2008, 18:13 »

for 200bux you can buy an exercise bicycle and a small set of weights. You just have to actually do it.
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Re: Pill mimics exercise
« Reply #41 on: 07 Aug 2008, 18:53 »

I don't see what the big deal is about this. The option of exercise will still be available to everyone, and exercising and using this pill in conjunction will result in a higher level of fitness so this pill will only increase the overall level of fitness in people as a whole. If people want to just take this pill and keep their lazy habits they will still be at a disadvantage to people who work hard at their fitness in any kind of comparison.

And if you really don't like exercise you can just get a job doing physical labour. I haven't exercised in my entire life and I'm pretty goddamned fit, and I get paid to stay that way. People in office jobs are suckers when you think about it.
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Patrick

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Re: Pill mimics exercise
« Reply #42 on: 08 Aug 2008, 03:01 »

Why cant people just get off of their lazy asses?

This is a relevant inquiry whether or not a fitness pill is an issue or not. A fitness pill still ain't gonna cure obesity.
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