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Author Topic: World of Warcraft  (Read 651062 times)

est

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Re: World of Warcraft
« Reply #700 on: 05 Jan 2009, 20:45 »

Like seriously, what the fuck am I supposed to do to combat that.
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est

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Re: World of Warcraft
« Reply #701 on: 05 Jan 2009, 20:45 »

Fuck.
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michaelicious

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Re: World of Warcraft
« Reply #702 on: 05 Jan 2009, 21:38 »

Guys I signed up for the 10 day Wrath of the Lich King trial since I can't afford to play right now. I feel kind of like a scrub since my gear is so mix-n-match because of the spellpower changes. I had my gear perfectly honed before I quit, now it's just an assortment of epics from my bank that I used to use for healing but are now better for my disc spec than my TBC shadow gear. I am sad that I can't play more. I can't even level to 71. It won't let me get that last experience point. I think I might just level up my professions.

Est, you probably just want to play defensively until the buff wears off. Go into Defensive Stance, pop a health potion, spam Piercing Howl and 5-7 him so he can't Demon Charge. Also you will stay out of range of Shadow Cleave and Immolation Aura. If you survive the 30 seconds I'm sure you can take him down considering you said you get him near execute range pretty easily.
« Last Edit: 05 Jan 2009, 21:44 by michaelicious »
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Alex C

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Re: World of Warcraft
« Reply #703 on: 05 Jan 2009, 21:42 »

Locks are a pain in the ass. Metamorphosis isn't actually all that great, although the Immolation abilitiy is pretty nasty and is pretty much custom tailored to be a warrior deterrent. Still, it's a niche PvP tool, for the most part. The big problem you're really having is that Demonology is already a pretty decent PvP tree to begin with thanks to the sheer added survivability. The part where they turn into a big nasty demon is mostly just adding insult to injury.
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Re: World of Warcraft
« Reply #704 on: 05 Jan 2009, 22:25 »

Two words for you: Turn.  Evil.   :evil:
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Re: World of Warcraft
« Reply #705 on: 05 Jan 2009, 22:33 »

I should be in bed right now, but I got sucked into a defense of Thunder Bluff (When the Alliance raid group started scouting the place, I was one of maybe five people over level 70 in TB). I've never done PvP before, but fuck that was fun. I even got like five or six achievements out of it. For those curious, we smacked their asses around.
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est

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Re: World of Warcraft
« Reply #706 on: 05 Jan 2009, 22:43 »

The problem for me though is that I am geared and specced to be a PvE dude.  I charged him and got him to about quarter health, then he bamfed into a demon and I was like "ok what the fuck is that?" and suddenly he had close to full health and I was the one near death.  There wasn't really a chance to go into def stance and even if I did I'm not sure it would have helped me last through 30 secs of demonlololol.

I think my main problem was that the transformation kind of threw me off so I stood there looking for where the dude was for a second, then realised "oh, I guess he's that demon thing now" for another second, then looked up at the health bars and just kind of looked at them quizzically for another second trying to make sense of why I he was at full health and I was nearly dead, and then I was actually dead and also very annoyed.  What that all says to me is that I don't have very much PvP experience at all and that I should probably practice a bit by accepting a few of the duels that I have been thus far supremely uninterested in but people quite annoyingly keep throwing my way all the time.
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Re: World of Warcraft
« Reply #707 on: 06 Jan 2009, 02:10 »

PvP servers!
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clockworkjames

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Re: World of Warcraft
« Reply #708 on: 06 Jan 2009, 03:11 »

Armoury link please, I wanna see what you are working with.

In other news I went arms for my guilds nax raid yesterday and today.

Good times.
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est

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clockworkjames

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Re: World of Warcraft
« Reply #710 on: 06 Jan 2009, 10:28 »

Really nicely thought out gear, I assume the tank shoulders are part def for solo surviving as well as the best you could get your hands on, not bad at all I must say.

Might suggest blood craze for added solo survivability and pvp to a degree, with Improved charge as a nice way to start a fight with some rage even if it does mean stance dancing back into berserker stance.

Also mega man points for rolling a dwarf + :-D :-D

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Alex C

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Re: World of Warcraft
« Reply #711 on: 06 Jan 2009, 14:44 »

Yeah, dueling would definitely help you avoid the "Wait, wtf did they just do?" factor in the future.

I'm going to be honest though; when it comes to 1vs1 world pvp, there's always going to be someone out there with a spec and gear layout that has your name on it, since that's just how blizzard kind of designed things. To consistently take on all comers, you'll need to be prepared with expensive consumables, which basically means you'll have to want to win that much more than they do. For example, when I played on a PvP server, I had to look out for Hunters on my rogue. If I got the jump on them, they were manageable, but I would still have a much narrower margin of error than they did, and most of my wins against them were the result of one of two things: 1. They were dumb or 2. I was a geared, wealthy Alchemist with a mean streak a mile wide. I mean, seriously, I used to routinely gank annoying warriors by combining a partial stunlock with hideously expensive Limited Invulnerability Potions (back then, they literally made you immune to physical damage for 6 seconds, AKA, an eternity vs. a t1/t2 rogue :-D). In the case of that warlock, he planned ahead and straight up took advantage of you; he obviously had cooldowns and a potion/healthstone available. If you're going to be fighting on someone else's terms like that, at the very least you'll need to bring a health pot of your own to the party.


Also, I really like checking out my stats on wowarmory for some reason. I find it gratifying to know that despite working almost completely on my own and thus virtually always tanking for myself, my level 54 rogue built around evasion and random quest/crafted gear still manages to deal around 7 damage per every point 1 point of damage he takes in despite being right in the face of every mob he fights. It's kind of embarrassing to realize I've died 36 times though. It doesn't feel like I've died that much.
« Last Edit: 06 Jan 2009, 15:14 by Alex C »
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est

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Re: World of Warcraft
« Reply #712 on: 06 Jan 2009, 16:14 »

Thanks guys, yeah the shoulders are kind of a case of "ehhh, they are good for now."  I think I got them off the AH a couple levels ago when they looked like the best thing at the time.  It's kind of hard to find +AP or something shoulders so I went for the old str/sta standby instead.  Also, I am halfway through a gear refresh going from max str/agi/sta to "oh god I'm level 60 what am I doing now uh maybe as much AP/to hit/crit as I can I guess? oh god" so things are a little less uniform than I want at the moment.  I've tried to augment things by throwing a few mid-level enchants/scroll of enchants onto things to fill in the gaps and got a really really good price on a Cobrahide thinger for my pants so I really couldn't pass it up.

I think I will take you advice and add Blood Craze back into my spec.  I had it in there a while back, but then I read a few things that said it probably wasn't "optimal" or someshit.  I have a feeling I am pretty much done with the Arms tree at this point and will be shooting for Titan's Grip eventually.
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Alex C

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Re: World of Warcraft
« Reply #713 on: 06 Jan 2009, 16:49 »

I hear you on that est. Prior to level 60, my rogue's upgrade path basically boils down to MOAR AGILITY. Post 60, I'll have to do things like choose between crap like Clefthoof Hide Leggings and Oilcloth Breeches. Technically, I think the Clefthoof pulls ahead, particularly if you're soloing due to +dodge from agility, but the fact that the items are both rewards from the same quest makes things more than a bit confusing. I'm guessing it must be like that because there was once a special druid only version of expertise that they consolidated into regular expertise.
« Last Edit: 06 Jan 2009, 16:51 by Alex C »
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clockworkjames

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Re: World of Warcraft
« Reply #714 on: 06 Jan 2009, 18:07 »

So for the last 2 days I have been offspeccing for my guilds 2 days Naxx raid, today on the second boss we downed I got a polearm. A bitchin' one since there was no huntard and my offspec was dps arms (no laughing plz). This convinced me to bite the bullet, remove some old 70 dps gear I was using and make me some savage saronite, my offspec may stay for a while yet before returning to prot but as I was doing utter shit dmg (9% from 6 dps in a 10 man raid) before I realised how warriors could now use pretty much whatever skills they want in most stances, I dropped battle stance and berserked my way through the end increasin my DPS by over 400 on avg. making me an almost capable DPS.

To be fair I was using 7 pieces of tanking gear and the rest was lv 70 dps gear, still no excuse. I bit the bullet, bough some gems, got some enchants, added a few sockets and made alot of new armour.

SICK AS FUCK even if I did balls up my build alot, all I knew about raiding and being the only warrior in the group was make my shouts count and do heavy DMG. You live you learn.

Now about that 500g worth of tanking glyphs I am using...
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Alex C

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Re: World of Warcraft
« Reply #715 on: 06 Jan 2009, 18:47 »

I wouldn't make fun of your decision to go DPS arms offspec if weren't for the fact that you've said in the past that you hate Rend. Arms Warriors who hate Rend make baby Uther cry. You, Rend and a Feral Druid should be hanging out together and downing brews every Saturday night.


EDIT

Also, I love it when warriors get polearms like that due to no hunter being around. You just know some random hunter will be mentally trying to give you cancer every time he sees you swing it. It takes me back to the days when virtually everyone in my guild had an Ancient Leaf.
« Last Edit: 06 Jan 2009, 18:59 by Alex C »
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PizzaSHARK

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Re: World of Warcraft
« Reply #716 on: 06 Jan 2009, 21:36 »

Takes me back to the days of UBRS and seeing Hunters with Dal'rend's swords.  Remember that old meme?

"You.  Roll.  On.  EVERYTHING."
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Re: World of Warcraft
« Reply #717 on: 07 Jan 2009, 03:22 »

I was thinking about my spec while lying in bed this morning and realised fick parry, heroic strike and rend MUST be better.

ANOOTHER respec for offspec.
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Alex C

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Re: World of Warcraft
« Reply #718 on: 07 Jan 2009, 11:21 »

I keep forgetting that mangle isn't quite the Arms dps booster it once was to be what with buffs/debuffs not really stacking. Whatever. Rend is still good, although I sort of understand why you dislike it. I used to have much the same relationship with Rupture; the direct DPS for both Rend and Rupture aren't really all that great, and for solo stuff where the mob dies super fast it's pretty meh. But they're both so inexpensive in terms of damage-per-rage/energy that once you realize that using Rupture/Rend lets you get off more special abilities in general, you never go back.
« Last Edit: 07 Jan 2009, 11:32 by Alex C »
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clockworkjames

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Re: World of Warcraft
« Reply #719 on: 07 Jan 2009, 12:23 »

I specced better now but only really missed out on improved cleave/incite/armoured to the teeth because of commanding presence, I will be further down the DPS list but bosses will fall much more easily, specced for the greater good even if I lose some AP and crit the group gains 6khp or a shit-ton of AP.
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est

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Re: World of Warcraft
« Reply #720 on: 07 Jan 2009, 15:57 »

Rend also has more utility than straight up damage-dealing.  Sometimes I'll lay a Rend on a mob late in the piece at the same time as a Hamstring if I know it's gonna run or fear me.  The I know that even if that happens and I can't finish it off myself directly it'll just hobble around Hamstrung and bleeding for a while before falling over.
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Re: World of Warcraft
« Reply #721 on: 07 Jan 2009, 16:39 »

I rarely used hamstrink in pve since any mobs that DO run away (Orcs in LBRS come to mind) get killed pretty fast anyways but an intercept/hamstring macro is not just for battlegrounds.

DPS meter got up to 7k DPS today (DPS trink, Battle shout, Sweeping strikes and bladestorm over a  group of 6-7 mobs in Utgard Pinnacle) so I was chuffed.

1 mob or boss fight I get a little rage starved and struggle to get above 1400, at least is better than my 920dps on patchwork *shame of DPS'ing in tank gear*

I was thinking, on my PvP server hunter I have a PvP trink pretty much all the time, is good to have.
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Re: World of Warcraft
« Reply #722 on: 07 Jan 2009, 17:01 »

So I respec'd my mage a bit. Took a bunch of points out of the frost tree from talents I don't use and threw them into arcane. Oh Clearcasting, how I missed you. I'm pulling in 700dps at the lowest and 950ish at the highest at the moment, when I'm pulling out all the stops - throw up ice barrier (for uninterrupted spell casting), icy veins (spell haste like wow), hit water ele and trinket on cooldowns and just spam Frostbolt in between with a Fireball when I get Brain Freeze.

Once I get to 80 I'll be respeccing to the Fire build based on Frostfire Bolt which is apparently the top raid build with seriously epic DPS.
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est

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Re: World of Warcraft
« Reply #723 on: 07 Jan 2009, 20:42 »

What do you guys use to check/monitor dps?  CombatMonitor or something else like that?  Kind of curious what my output looks like now.
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Re: World of Warcraft
« Reply #724 on: 07 Jan 2009, 21:01 »

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PizzaSHARK

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Re: World of Warcraft
« Reply #725 on: 07 Jan 2009, 21:42 »

Armored to the Teeth is, point-for-point, superior to Cruelty for all Warrior specs.  It really is just that good.  Any Warrior that's taking 5/5 Cruelty without 3/3 Armored to the Teeth is losing significant DPS/TPS.
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Jace

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Re: World of Warcraft
« Reply #726 on: 08 Jan 2009, 01:53 »

Why does it feel like I'm constantly grinding in this game? Will it ever get to be fun?
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clockworkjames

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Re: World of Warcraft
« Reply #727 on: 08 Jan 2009, 04:00 »

Frostfire is best for spell reflecting at squishies in pee vee pee hahah :evil: even if it is widely used for being awesome.

I just wanted crit over AP because I don't want TPS when I am DPS but thanks, is something to think about next time I offspec.
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PizzaSHARK

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Re: World of Warcraft
« Reply #728 on: 08 Jan 2009, 04:27 »

Why does it feel like I'm constantly grinding in this game? Will it ever get to be fun?

WoW is a grind.  Before 80, you grind XP.  After 80, you grind equipment, reputation, professions, and gold.  In fact, all pay-to-pay MMOs are grind-y, because those grinds are how they get you to keep paying those monthly subscription fees.  Doesn't mean it can't be fun; just be aware that the whole game is a grind.

Armored to the Teeth is superior to Cruelty for every Warrior spec, not just Protection.  You should really get both (I really can't think of a build that doesn't suck that doesn't include both), but if you just have to choose one or the other, Armored to the Teeth is better.
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Alex C

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Re: World of Warcraft
« Reply #729 on: 08 Jan 2009, 10:24 »

Armored to the Teeth is a sweet, sweet talent. What really blows my mind though is that DKs have an equivalent talent (Bladed Armor) that goes up to 5 attack power per 180 armor. I mean, shit, my level 58 dk in his quest blues already has nearly 8k armor while in Frost Presence. Holy extra threat batman.
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clockworkjames

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Re: World of Warcraft
« Reply #730 on: 08 Jan 2009, 13:55 »

New tank build... Made for survivability, aggro control and tanking... NOT ANY DPS AT ALL EVER.

Pretty sure THIS is where I am now.

1 unused point...

Where to put for good tanking with dps low low low low on priorities.
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est

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Re: World of Warcraft
« Reply #731 on: 08 Jan 2009, 16:23 »

I haven't looked into the prot tree all that much, but from there I'd probably put the last point into Imp Disarm if you'd use it.  The 5% dmg isn't much, but I'm sure that the DPS guys in your group would appreciate the boost.  If you don't use disarm at all then perhaps Tactical Mastery?  I am not sure how much you need to dance while tanking.
« Last Edit: 08 Jan 2009, 16:25 by est »
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Alex C

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Re: World of Warcraft
« Reply #732 on: 08 Jan 2009, 18:14 »

God, I am such a WoW nerd. I already have a pure DPS melee character in the form of the rogue I'm leveling, so my tank alt on my new server won't be a warrior; it will likely be a DK simply because it starts at level 55 or a Druid since I can always make them a healer/boomkin if I get bored of tanking. Despite all of this, I ended up spending the last half hour nerding out and using highly speculative napkin math to come up with a prot tank spec anyway. Behold, Alex's Probably Terrible Tank Spec.


It doesn't have as many points in Puncture and it loses Improved Thunder Clap completely in order to put those points into Impale and Deep Wounds of all things. I can defend this! The big thing is, I don't think losing those talents is a big enough problem to offset the advantages gained, particularly during fights where you can burn off some rage with Heroic Strike. After all, Prot tanks crit a lot more often than people suspect; they have talents that provide Devastate and Heroic Strike with +15% chance to crit 24/7 and Shield Slam also has +15% chance to crit during Critical Block procs, plus they are often spamming crap as mobs furiously pound on them. Basically, in any situation where paying 1 more rage on a Devastate isn't a burden, this build should be a straight up TPS/DPS increase. In high rage fights, your TPS/DPS should go through the roof, since you'll hit harder on crits and Improved Heroic Strike will help equalize the rage you gave up earlier from not having so many points into Puncture.


...Okay, yeah, fine; the loss of Imp. TC means you'll suck a bit worse at AOE tanking, and yes, TC creates a fuck ton of threat in general. You already kind of sucked at AOE tanking anyway compared to DKs, Bears, and Prot Pallies anyway. In other words, make the offtank do it, and if he dies, laugh at him.


Edited because I somehow accidentally put points into intervene and made a few really dumb typos.
« Last Edit: 08 Jan 2009, 21:53 by Alex C »
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PizzaSHARK

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Re: World of Warcraft
« Reply #733 on: 08 Jan 2009, 21:16 »

New tank build... Made for survivability, aggro control and tanking... NOT ANY DPS AT ALL EVER.

Pretty sure THIS is where I am now.

1 unused point...

Where to put for good tanking with dps low low low low on priorities.

Low DPS will mean low TPS.  You really need to read up at Tankspot and Elitist Jerks, because it seems like you're somewhat misinformed about how tanking works in 3.x.
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Re: World of Warcraft
« Reply #734 on: 08 Jan 2009, 22:08 »

ive had a bm hunter for the better part of 2 years. im no noob but i really dont understand the statictics enough to maximize my dps...
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Re: World of Warcraft
« Reply #735 on: 08 Jan 2009, 23:13 »

Try reading threads at Elitist Jerks, and I wouldn't be surprised if there's a stickied guide or three in your class forum on the official WoW boards.  The information's out there, you just gotta make yourself read it :)
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Re: World of Warcraft
« Reply #736 on: 09 Jan 2009, 01:05 »

So right now my 35 Mage is FS and has decent DPS, but I'd like my DPS to be better than my MBPS, I don't know if it's a direct correlation, but I think my HRPS and MRPS is subpar for what I could have. Now sometimes I play while I have the RHPS on and that can distract me and bring down my DPS while raising my HBPS, but it's pretty negligable because I can ignore the RHPS. So what I am wondering is if I use FB/FS, AM/RT, and TV/TS skills, will my DPS be higher than my ESP?

(I made up like half of the acronyms, just so you know)

Actually I'm wondering about maybe moving my mage from the RP server he is on to a normal server.
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Re: World of Warcraft
« Reply #737 on: 09 Jan 2009, 03:20 »

Low DPS will mean low TPS.  You really need to read up at Tankspot and Elitist Jerks, because it seems like you're somewhat misinformed about how tanking works in 3.x.

BS. My 61 protadin hits for around 200 white damage/ 1.8 speed, and I crit for around 300. I never lose aggro. Sure, I'm spamming Holy Shield and Consecrate, but I consistently place lower than everyone except the healer on the damage meters. If I use Seal of Light and Judgement of Light, I occasionally place below the healer in DPS.

DPS=/=TPS
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Re: World of Warcraft
« Reply #738 on: 09 Jan 2009, 06:16 »

I should clarify... High threat moves heavily outweight dps for threat, as of 3.x it is harder (but still not impossible) to steal aggro, I do easily 1200DPS and by "dps low low low low on priorities" what I mean is I don't want to be that dick of a tank with a shield spike instead of a +20 def ench, or a 2.5 speed sword that should be used by a rogue, or with incite instead of points in anticipation, with improved rend over deflection etc.

Tank gear is str/stam and strength = AP and also BLOCK which means damage shield gets a hefty boost and so does shield slam.

I am not low on DPS (For a tank) by any stretch of the imagination. What I meant was that climbing the dmg list is not important to me, I would rather be a good tank than a high dps tank. My TPS is built on improved threat moves like devastate3 times then revenge and shield slam when sword and board procs, when both of them are on CD it's heroic strike, another devastate, shockwave on a stunnable mob, concussion blow or even another devastate.

If I can keep aggro off a full purple lock/rogue and a +1950 bonus healing restro, I am doing something right.

Incite or impale?
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Alex C

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Re: World of Warcraft
« Reply #739 on: 09 Jan 2009, 09:24 »

I'm leaning towards Impale. After all, Devastate and Shield Slam have pretty decent crit rates when their talents kick in and 10% more damage on a Shield Slam crit is pretty hefty chunk of threat, especially when you get a few more drops and can tack on some more Strength to along with all that Stam you're packing.


And yeah, I agree with the gist of what you're saying. It's typically a hell of a lot better to mix and match specialized backup items you keep in your bags for special occasions than it is to constantly make weird talent concessions and to throw odd enchantments/gems on your primary tanking gear. For example, my old guild's MT Menergy used to swap out to lower tier stuff that had expertise rating or was gemmed for dps/threat generation on trash pulls and farm status bosses, but that's a far cry from slapping a shield spike on a Bulwark of Azzinoth. I imagine it's not so bad now that prot warriors deal so much more damage than they used to in general, but there was once a time where you could hit so much mitigation that being overgeared actually led to rage starvation.
« Last Edit: 09 Jan 2009, 09:51 by Alex C »
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clockworkjames

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Re: World of Warcraft
« Reply #740 on: 09 Jan 2009, 19:26 »

I am happy to say that I never get rage starved anymore. I love it.

Ragebeast! I can get uncrittable if I swap out my good helm for a not so good helm, or the tempered cobalt lv76 one...

But fuck that tbh, new trink I got an hour ago is SICK for def, just gonna need to put a socket and yellow def gem on my next purplez gloves whatever they may be.

Thanks for all the help guys, appreciate it! The point will be unspent until I am sure of what to do or forget it is there and accidentally click on something.
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PizzaSHARK

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Re: World of Warcraft
« Reply #741 on: 12 Jan 2009, 21:13 »

Low DPS will mean low TPS.  You really need to read up at Tankspot and Elitist Jerks, because it seems like you're somewhat misinformed about how tanking works in 3.x.

BS. My 61 protadin hits for around 200 white damage/ 1.8 speed, and I crit for around 300. I never lose aggro. Sure, I'm spamming Holy Shield and Consecrate, but I consistently place lower than everyone except the healer on the damage meters. If I use Seal of Light and Judgement of Light, I occasionally place below the healer in DPS.

DPS=/=TPS

You'll generate more TPS if you use Seal of Corruption/Vengeance.  What you judge is up to you... if your DPS is mana-heavy, judge Wisdom.  If it's not, judge Light.  Occasionally judge Justice if you're concerned about runners (though I honestly can't recall any runners in LK instances.)

Doing decent DPS while tanking does not mean you are a poor tank, nor does it mean you're not doing your job.  It's very possible for the tank to place third or even second above less-than-optimal DPS, especially if you're AE tanking.  This goes double for DK and Pally tanks, because your only realistic target cap is how many mobs your healer can keep you alive against.  It's similar for Warriors and Druids, but they're still marginally weaker in terms of AE tanking, though not by much.

For some reason, people seem to think doing DPS as a tank is bad, when it's pretty much exactly the opposite.  The Defense enchant on your shield is less powerful than a Stamina enchant or the upcoming shield plating if you've already reached the softcap.  If your healer(s) are not having issues keeping you alive, then it's in the raid's best interests for you to generate more threat, which in turns allows your DPS to step it up.

Tanking was changed for LK, in that now a significant portion of your threat comes from damage dealt.  Moves with threat modifiers (like Shield of Righteousness and Revenge) are still plenty important, but the amount of raw DPS that you put out is now very important as well.

Quote
Incite or impale?

Both.
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thegreatbuddha

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Re: World of Warcraft
« Reply #742 on: 12 Jan 2009, 22:55 »

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PizzaSHARK

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Re: World of Warcraft
« Reply #743 on: 13 Jan 2009, 00:01 »

So use Seal of Righteousness then.
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Alex C

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Re: World of Warcraft
« Reply #744 on: 13 Jan 2009, 00:18 »

Yeah, that still doesn't really change anything about the entire threat-damage dynamic.
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Covetous

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Re: World of Warcraft
« Reply #745 on: 13 Jan 2009, 01:20 »

Mitigation/avoidance > threath > DPS

Have all (dps-)classes/spec become easier to play? My paladin was never very hard to play before 3.0. You could come in tricky situations, but now it's silly easy. I don't have the best gear but I can easily go up vs up to 6 mobs that are higher level then myself and kick there ass. Sure I have quite alot of panic buttons but I hardly need to use them ever. Link [http://eu.wowarmory.com]
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PizzaSHARK

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Re: World of Warcraft
« Reply #746 on: 13 Jan 2009, 03:55 »

Yeah, that still doesn't really change anything about the entire threat-damage dynamic.

Except that your damage increases your threat.  SoR is inferior to SoC/SoV, so once you get it, you pretty much won't use SoR ever again.  It judges for more intially, but after five stacks, JoC/JoV hits pretty much every bit as hard, and potentially a little harder.

People seem to think that you can't get good DPS and good EHP with the same spec - you can, and you should.  Seriously, go read Tankspot and Elitist Jerks.  The numbers do not lie.
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Covetous

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Re: World of Warcraft
« Reply #747 on: 13 Jan 2009, 04:37 »

PizzaSHARK, but what is most important for a tank, threath or DPS?
You should do dps, but that is not the main priority for a tank. When looking at a tank you should look at how good they survive and then how much threath they put out. There are several low damage high threath abilitys out there. But all other tank classes (except death knights perhaps) have to sacrifice damage output to add survivability and therefor they have to do more threath compared to damage output. That's the whole idea of a tank.
If a tank do more damage then a dps in the group/raid the dps should be kicked, banned and laughed at under normal cirkumstanses. If it is in any way implied that a tank should do good dps compared to pure dps-specs then theres something wrong with the ballance in the game. Then you should just bring tanks and healers sins you would have the same amout of dps but way better survivability.
This is ofc from a wow point of wiev. Someone might make another mmorpg that revolves around a different mechanics (and they should sins this would be fun). Also, they might have changed their thoughts about tanks and think that a tank is someone who do good DPS while he is being the target of the mob but bad dps otherwise. This is not really the case for any of the tank classes to what I know. The one who get closest is the paladin who do quite a lot of reactive damage. But neither bears or DKs have this. And warriors rather have focus on high threath when they are being the target (more rage).

So, simply put, what I'm trying to say is that any thank should focus more on makeing sure he is doing high amount of threath and not care about the dps until he is sure that none of the dps will reach him in threath. And these two things are both after he made sure his survivability is good enough.


Edit: removed a sentance that wasen't that important.
« Last Edit: 13 Jan 2009, 07:19 by Covetous »
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clockworkjames

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Re: World of Warcraft
« Reply #748 on: 13 Jan 2009, 06:59 »

You should do dps, but that is not the main priority for a tank. When looking at a tank you should look at how good they survive and then how much threat they put out. There are several low damage high damage abilitys out there. This is mainly the case for warriors. But all other tank classes (except death knights perhaps) have to sacrifice damage output to add survivability and therefor they have to do more threath compared to damage output. That's the whole idea of a tank.
If a tank do more damage then a dps in the group/raid the dps should be kicked, banned and laughed at under normal cirkumstanses. If it is in any way implied that a tank should do good dps compared to pure dps-specs then theres something wrong with the ballance in the game. Then you should just bring tanks and healers sins you would have the same amout of dps but way better survivability.

QFT
From where I am coming from that was nail on head else I would not have quoted. Show me a tanking build with Incite and Impale and I will show you where those 5 points could be put to far better use for tanking. As for Def on shield, Alof of the purplz you get have alot less def than the tempered saronite stuff I still use a piece or two of, this allows me to wear purples instead of blues but stay uncrittable at every point. Also DEF is still a gread stat even past the cap for what if does to your defence, not just being uncrittable.
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Alex C

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Re: World of Warcraft
« Reply #749 on: 13 Jan 2009, 10:17 »

Actually Clockworkjames, no, you can't.

You guys are missing something fairly obvious here. DPS talents are traditionally maligned because of two things:
1. You often have to give up too much survivability to get them.
2. They don't improve the abilities tanks actually use enough to be justifiable. Mortal Strike is a shitty tank talent because frankly, you wouldn't be using it even if you could easily fit it into your build.

With the bigger and better trees available to warriors though, that is no longer necessarily the case. Quite simply, it's easy to get abilities like Incite and Impale without touching survival talents, and they DO improve some of your bread and butter abilities Strike. Instead, you can steal a few points here and there from things like Puncture, which when it comes right down to it, is just another threat talent, and not even a particularly good one. I mean, yes, it increases the Devastate's threat-per-rage, but that doesn't really matter all that much since there's often something better to do with your GCD and because being rage starved is so rarely a major issue these days. All it could really net you is a few more rage per fight, but since you're converting that rage straight into threat anyway, you have to ask yourself if 3 points into Puncture can match 2 points of Impale (and 20% larger Shield Slam crits!) in terms of threat. Personally, considering the devastate nerfs that have gone down, I tend to lean towards Impale, which also gives the added bonus of dealing more damage, which, all things considered, is a good thing. At worst we're talking about sidegrades. YMMV.
« Last Edit: 13 Jan 2009, 10:37 by Alex C »
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