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[Alex C]

The rough thing about heal capable classes is that even when they're losing or have made a dumb mistake or two they still have a decent chance at hanging around until you make a mistake of your own. I have to be really mindful of not throwing a kick or burning a cooldown too early lest I fail to close the deal, so to speak. I've had my fair share of "Coulda woulda shoulda" losses against my old druid guild leader, let me tell you.

[est]

I would think that as with pretty much every other thing in WoW how class A would go against class B would depend on their individual builds.  I am pretty sure that as a prot-spec Warrior I would have a bit of trouble with PvP in general, but I don't know, maybe against Mages I'd be ok seeing as I have more stuns than the other Warrior builds?  PvP isn't really my thing.  I am not really sure I've dueled or done any PvP at all since the spec change.  Back when I was Fury-specced I lost that one encounter with a Warlock in a fairly spectacular fashion, but I never had problems with any duels.

Oh hey, I just realised that I would probably actually stand a better chance in that Warlock encounter now because I can now Shield Bash (with Gag Order) to stun & silence, then Shield Slam which damages and dispels, then start Devastating and Shield Slamming to dispel all their buffs.  Well, in theory anyway.

[Alex C]

Yeah, builds can be hella important. Second wind definitely changes how I approach taking down a warrior.

[Covetous]

I miss the time when SAP, sheap, ice trap and fear actually had a use in PvE. I have yet to do any isntance where it is needed. And since a retri paladin (for example) can't fill any other role than dps (heals can bli ignored since they add nothing pretty much) they have to do just as much DPS as pure DPS classes to be worth taking. And that makes it more fun to play a multi purpose class since you can change role when ever you want pretty much. Before the WotLK the pure DPS classes had a purpose in CC atleast. In my opinion Blizzard have forfeited the dynamic between classes to let all classes be able to top the Damage Done table. And everyone allways want to be in the top of the Damage done list.
WoW is to easy now days.

[clockworkjames]

Yeah, skill comes into play, but it's a two way street. Your seeming disrespect for any non-tanking class seems both arrogant and lacking anything tangible to back up your mouth-running, considering I'm not sure I've ever seen you talk about experience with a single non tank class in this thread.

Touché, because I find most other things besides tanking boring as shit (apart from my restro droob, that's a fuckton of fun).

I have played all classed to 30 but only a few beyond. My arrogance is towards the person on the other side of the keyboard, with the rogue that challenged me to a duel 3 times in a row while getting pumped harder each time.

Oh hey, I just realised that I would probably actually stand a better chance in that Warlock encounter now because I can now Shield Bash (with Gag Order) to stun & silence, then Shield Slam which damages and dispels, then start Devastating and Shield Slamming to dispel all their buffs.  Well, in theory anyway.

Yeah, locks can still be pretty tough though, in 2v2 a succubus makes you blow your trink so that your arena partner doesn't get fucked by 2 locks and a felhound, but in 1v1 you have the rite idea, berserk out of fear, trink out of scream, then interupt anything else you can with either heroic throw or shield bash etc. and let the pet chip away at you for some revenge procs to use on the clothie, run away and charge every 15 secs for a stun/interrupt too.

[Alex C]

So, I was involved with an aborted Heroic Nexus run last night that was truly surreal, and not just because I've never had to quit on a Nexus (or hell, any Heroic) run before. Basically, a couple of guildies and I ended up with a DK "tank" who did around 647 dps. As you can imagine, his threat was, uh, not so good. Honestly though, we had a lot of fun as my guildies and I attempted attempted to see how far we could get by essentially stunning, pet tanking and fearing our way through the instance as the DK did his level best to get us all killed (the answer: not terribly far; only two bosses downed). The DK was truly amazing; he did a li'l bit of everything, really, including falling off a ledge and dying at one point and getting murdered by flowers after one of the wipes. Honestly, we weren't even mad; the guy wasn't lazy or a jerk, just amazingly thick. Picking on him would have been about as productive as getting mad at a 5 week old puppy for peeing on the carpet.

[est]

I have encountered my fair share of thick players even while trying to remain relatively insular.  I guess you get that when a game is so massively popular?

[0bsessions]

Patch 3.1 has been confirmed for tomorrow, folks.

See you in Ulduar...after about ten to twelve hours of extended maintenance and server crashes, in all likelihood.

[est]

Fuck yeah

[est]

I mean, I am not of a level to enjoy Ulduar yet because I've been on a break for a bit, but still, the other stuff they've been talking about sounds great.  I am gonna dual-spec Prot and something else.  Maybe I'll take Fury as my second, but mebbe I'll give Arms a shot, because I would like to try something a little different and also because it'll gimme a chance to use some of the 2h quest reward weapons a bit.

[Alex C]

I'm not really excited about dual specs, but that's mostly because it's completely worthless to me as a rogue and because my guild asked me to switch my main to a class that's more flexible since there is now little reasons not to wear different hats on different raid nights. I do good dps and all, it's just that we're a guild with only 30 people on the raiding roster and we don't bring along puggers to raids, which is unfortunate since Naxx 25 punishes groups for bringing more than 3 melee dps to Kel'thuzad. This isn't unusual on Grizzly Hills, the youngest server in the game. They're the least wanted class here and few people have been playing long enough to feel attached to rogues, so there's no real reason to play one, particularly since the top Alliance guild on the server doesn't have any rogues at all and couldn't care less. It's pretty shitty and I'm kind of hating hybrids a little right now. Anyway, off to transfer my old 70 druid to Grizzly hills.

[0bsessions]

Dual spec is what I'm all about. As a Druid, dual spec is fucking epic. My one problem is going to be deciding between going resto or balance for my off spec.

I have to disagree in terms of the usefulness of dual spec for a Rogue. It might not be very useful level eighty, but it's going to be very nice leveling mine. I won't be getting it tonight, as I'm level 38, but as soon as I ding 40, I'm snagging it. I stick to the subtlety tree since it's so useful for soloing, but I'd like to have a more DPS oriented off spec for PVP and dungeons.

[Alex C]

Yeah, see, I really don't see the point in switching specs before 80 on a rogue maybe more than once or twice. Subtlety's only real weakness is the crappy sustained white damage, which isn't exactly a big deal in pre-heroic 5 man content simply because mobs don't stay up for very long. In a bad group, respeccing won't do enough to make up for their badness and in a good group your damage shouldn't take a big enough hit for it to really matter because mobs won't be alive very long anyway. As for me, the pvp gear is all sidegrades at this point anyway.

[clockworkjames]

I have been thinking, when I get dual spec (UA prot build and my normal prot build I guess) I will change back and forward from one to the other 20 times rite at the start for no other reason than to justify paying the cost of 20 respecs.

[Lines]

I think I may end up choosing feral as my other spec. I can heal rather well off spec as is, but am lousy at tanking with +int/spell power talents. So. Back to the scritchy scratch.

Also! I know this failed epically the last time people tried, but you guys should come play WoW with me and Tyler on Ravencrest. (Horde side.) DO EET.

[Alex C]

The second horde has a race that provides expertise and reputation grind bonuses, I'll think about it.

[0bsessions]

I'd consider Alliance if any of their races (Excepting dwarves) weren't a bunch pf pussies.

[clockworkjames]

Roll dwarf, be awesome.

[Alex C]

Maybe after they decide they're finally done nerfing them.

[clockworkjames]

Doesn't matter what they do to stoneform or frost res/avoidance, dwarves are still superior to every other race in every way shape and form.

[Alex C]

Tell that to my free racial pvp trinket.

[BeoPuppy]

Doesn't matter what they do to stoneform or frost res/avoidance, dwarves are still superior to every other race in every way shape and form.

... no, not in shape and form, actually.

[clockworkjames]

Tell that to my free racial pvp trinket.

So? I like my 84 res from the pvp trink.

[Tyler]

Whatever. You should come play horde with me and Linds. We are pretty much cooler than you.

[Alex C]

So, after further review, the Greatness card and Mirror of Truth trinket combo is much, much better than I had hoped it would be.

[Alex C]

Oh, and I made a tauren warrior named Bludgeon to play around with on Ravencrest.

EDIT: I think I'll run around with Whipstitch the Undead Mage for a while instead.

[Lines]

Yuss. I made a warlock, but considering I keep wanting to melee, I need to make something else.

[Alex C]

Yeah, I nearly went warlock since I think overall they tend to be the better class (not so much after the patch), but in the end portal and sheep won out.


That and I don't know how much I'll really end up playing for sure anyway since I'm in a guild that raids a few nights  a week atm.

[0bsessions]

Well, looks like I'm rolling melee if I do decide to hang with you kids off and on.

[Alex C]

Man, I forgot how lame high end mage gear looks. Screw it, I'm playing bludgeon.

[Yakob]

Also! I know this failed epically the last time people tried, but you guys should come play WoW with me and Tyler on Ravencrest. (Horde side.) DO EET.

I'll bite. I made an undead priest named Starsnostars, but i'd be happy to switch to something more suited for deeps if someone already has dibs on healing.

[Alex C]

DPS is easy to get these days anyway, despite the fact that blizzard has a gigantic stiffy for almost instantly lethal melee range AoEs for some dumb ass reason. Really, whose bright idea was it to leave only enough room for 3 melee dpsers on Kel'thuzad? This is supposed to make sense on a 25 man encounter? Really?


Honestly, I can't decide what to play right now. It'd be easier if horde pcs weren't a big pile of clipping issues.

EDIT

Okay, definitely Bludgeon, even if he is another damn melee character for me. Tauren rock.

[KharBevNor]

Psh, American servers.

I need to get some good pvping in before they realise what they've done. Protadins have now got fucking ridiculous. The new talent builds let me have everything I need for tanking, AND full stoicism, and still go deep enough into the ret tree to get both ranks of Pursuit of Justice. Time to get some flag runs in.

Looking above, I think people are being a bit off talking about PVP solely in terms of how well you can scrap with any other class. The PVP battles in the end of the day are about completing objectives and preventing the enemy from completing theirs. If more people remembered this then the Horde wouldn't keep getting raped in AV (this happens constantly on my server group, dunno about anyone elses). I have unfortunately come to realise that, as well as almost continual unbalancing, a lot of that has to do with the fact that a lot of people don't actually seem to know how AV works. Witness twenty horde desperately trying to defend the Frostwolf Graveyard whilst allies ride straight round behind them, capture the relief hut and then surround the keep, using the hordes own defences against them. This happens almost every time I play AV, and it is extremely depressing.

[est]

I've created a couple chars on Ravencrest, just trying to figure out if any of them are ones I like playing.  I have Estarriol the BE Mage, Bjorc the Orc Hunter and twin brothers Malachias and Stabbington the Undead DK (woo redundancy) and Rogue respectively.  I'll give them a go for a bit and see if I enjoy playing any of these classes.  Whatever I do I may use Malachias as a gold-producer for the rest of them.  This whole "you can make a DK on any server" biz really does give people a bit of a beachhead to work with.

[Alex C]

The whole pvp plate parade they've got going right now is definitely a well-known phenomenon; it's wall to wall DKs and pallies atm.

[Lines]

I made a tauren shaman named Clodagh. I can melee and heal myself! Woo!

[0bsessions]

I think you're misunderstanding, Khar. While I myself tend to stick to Battlegrounds, I believe the others are primarily referring to world PvP and Arenas in terms of class versus class stuff.

In terms of your analysis of piss poor strategy, that tends to depend entirely on the server. Battlegrounds are almost the same way as you describe on my server, BUT that is primarily because I am on a very Alliance heavy server (There's about 3 Alliance for every two Horde on my server) and that really throws Battlegrounds because you tend to see the better players gravitating toward the higher populated faction in a given server. My brother's on a primarily Horde server (Same ratio, except reversed) and the Alliance on there can't get from one side of the Valley to the other without doing something so monumentally stupid that they pretty much hand the match away.

Warsong Gulch is damn near impossible to win Hordeside on my server since it's so hard to get a PUG even the vaguest bit organized or even using basic common sense. Inexplicably, Eye of the Storm tends to run very smoothly for some reason.

Linds, I fail to see why you're so impressed with that. Don't you already have a high level Druid on another server?

[KharBevNor]

There's been a few times in WSG where I've personally managed to salvage a battle just by yelling at people. If you can get three people to mount a proper defence in the flag room and get everyone else attacking properly as a group then it's almost impossible to lose. BGs are lost by people who just want to run around trying to rack up their HKs. Also people who have no sticking power. One of the main reasons AV is always unabalanced on my server group is because at the start horde players turn up, see the alliance have a 5 man lead on us, and quit, meaning the alliance has a six man lead on us. From then on it just steamrollers, as the games desperate attempts to balance the sides can hardly keep up with the horde wussing out en masse, and within 5 minutes the allies outnumber us 2:1 or more. Given that AV can be won with a steady, grim defence, especially if people take the time to do the battle quests to buff up the NPCs, the initial imbalance is by no means fatal. Have these people never heard of force multipliers? Unfortunately, the general attitude seems to be that it is preferable to lose three ten minute games to the Alliance to get your three AV marks, rather than grind them down in one epic 45 minute battle. I think this is a fundamentally wrong and anti-fun attitude, but what can I do? Normally, get ganked by hunters whilst trying desperately to defend Drek'thar from the raid-strength force camped outside, whilst the rest of my side fights unrelentingly for strategically unimportant graveyards* whilst the alliance methodically destroy our towers one by one.

I would just stop playing AV, but I REALLY want that wolf.   




*All except the two level 76 DKs who are inexplicably under the impression they can solo Belinda.

[0bsessions]

I had a situation like that in WSG once before. I tried taking charge, and it was a pain, but more people listened over time as I said what I planned to do and stuck with it. I was guarding the flag most of the game while trying to give people time to get the opposing flag.

I honestly wish I didn't deal with so many incompetents there, because WSG is practically tailor made for a Druid to excel.

[Lines]

Yes I do. But it is an improvement over a warlock which can neither melee or heal itself. This is about lowbie characters on Ravencrest, not in general.

[Alex C]

Ya know, I had almost forgot about the whole you can start a DK on any server thing. I'm somewhat tempted to go DK now. I kind of hate pets though.

[Lines]

Well there goes over half the money I'd been saving for epic flight form. But considering I can't fly in Northrend for a while, I think I'd rather have the dual spec so I can guarantee a spot in instances if a group is lacking a healer.

[KharBevNor]

I'm considering Dual Spec, (probably dual spec to ret because I'll need completely different gear and glyphs to be anywhere near effective as a healadin, my mana pool is tiny) but I haven't got epic flying or cold weather flying yet, so that's frankly quite a distance off.

Or do you get two different sets of glyphs and action bars when you dual spec?

[Covetous]

I'm considering Dual Spec, (probably dual spec to ret because I'll need completely different gear and glyphs to be anywhere near effective as a healadin, my mana pool is tiny) but I haven't got epic flying or cold weather flying yet, so that's frankly quite a distance off.

Or do you get two different sets of glyphs and action bars when you dual spec?

Yes, you get a completly new set of glyphs when you buy dual spec. The actionbars was intended to change when you switch your spec. But it seems they forgot to implement it in the live patch. There are however addons that will handle it for you.

[Beren]

My action bars change when I switch spec. 

Also, FUCK YES SEA TURTLE MOUNT a;eojgna;f

you are slow but I love you.

[Covetous]

Strange, 'cus it doesn't work for any of my friends. Are you an US server perhaps?

And, omg, I want the turtle! It's the coolest mount in all of WoW (or any MMORPG for that mather)!

[Beren]

Yep, US Server, and my action bars switch every time.

Although, I do get all of my talents back every 12 hours or so, still. I'm pretty good at speccing at this point.  Stupid bug.

[0bsessions]

I've been having the same talent point refund problem, which is really annoying when you have dual spec. No problems with the action bars, though. Mine switch fine.

I don't have my epic flying and I'm a long ways off (I've got about 1500 gold left after buying dual spec, so I'm a ways off), but I at least got cold weather flying as soon as I hit 77.

[Lines]

My action bars switched, but I don't know about the talent refund bug. We will see whenever I log on next.

And yeah, I still have enough to get cold weather flying, but I'm still at 74, so I'm not really in a rush. Also I don't know how much I'll be on my druid right now unless I really feel like raiding. Depends on how sick I get of leveling the new character.

[clockworkjames]

I'm considering Dual Spec, (probably dual spec to ret because I'll need completely different gear and glyphs to be anywhere near effective as a healadin, my mana pool is tiny) but I haven't got epic flying or cold weather flying yet, so that's frankly quite a distance off.

Tank gear is just as different to dps gear as healing gear is to tank gear, int and MP5 is healing gear, str stam crit hit is DPS gear and str stam def dodge block parry is tank gear. If you spec ret in tank gear nobody will let you in their group, so go for whatever you enjoy and roll dem dice.

Or do you get two different sets of glyphs and action bars when you dual spec?

Yes.