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Author Topic: Let's have a fashion advice thread.  (Read 665579 times)

jhocking

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Re: Let's have a fashion advice thread.
« Reply #900 on: 22 Sep 2008, 20:40 »

It really bugs me when people wear keffiyehs without understand the political/historical significance of them.

Conversely, it makes me chuckle when people get so uptight about them having some deep political/historical significance. Although they are strange and exotic to Westerners, bear in mind that in the Middle East they're pretty ubiquitous, sort of like the Arab equivalent of baseball caps. Hell, back when I lived in Egypt a keffiyeh tied around the neck was part of my Boy Scout uniform.

While certainly specific political groups in the Middle East wear certain styles of keffiyeh as a recognizable part of their garb, to suggest that people can't wear them just because they like them is like saying you shouldn't wear red shirts because of the significance of that color in inner city gangs warfare.

EDIT: For some reason I thought his was a new post.
« Last Edit: 22 Sep 2008, 20:43 by jhocking »
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ViolentDove

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Re: Let's have a fashion advice thread.
« Reply #901 on: 22 Sep 2008, 20:44 »

Edit: Wow... me too, jhocking. I was writing this at the same time as you, apparently.

It really bugs me when people wear keffiyehs without understand the political/historical significance of them.

Particularly hipster girls.

It really bugs me when people make a big deal about a scarf.

First of all, why single out "hipster girls"? I've seen plenty of guys wearing them too.

Second of all- people really need to stop saying this stuff about keffiyehs. A keffiyeh is just a scarf used by people in desert regions to keep the goddamn sun off their head. While a very specific colour and pattern of scarf is associated with a certain Palestinian leader, all the other keffiyehs seen around the place aren't at all associated with anything except being a practical and decorative addition to your head. And even wearing one of the black and white ones doesn't necessarily mean anything! 

They're also used by many armed forces in many countries, including Australia and the U.K., yet no-one ever seems to bring that up.

Yeah, some of the patterns are for specific tribal groups, but so what? Arguing about this would be like saying that anyone who wears any type of tartan should find out the political stance of clan McDougal on the British Monarchy before they're allowed to wear tartan.
 
Please note that I don't own a keffiyeh. But you know what I do own? A khmer scarf, called a krama.

Guess what- this is a piece of clothing that has been around for thousands of years, yet became associated with the Khmer Rouge in recent times largely because of the media. Does wearing this mean I support the actions of the Khmer Rouge? No, it doesn't! I just like the scarf, and agree with Cambodians who dislike the fact that one of their lovely traditional items of clothing has become associated with something they hate.

If I didn't know all of this, it'd still be a nice looking scarf. Practical, too.
« Last Edit: 22 Sep 2008, 20:47 by ViolentDove »
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RedLion

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Re: Let's have a fashion advice thread.
« Reply #902 on: 22 Sep 2008, 20:56 »

It really bugs me when people wear keffiyehs without understand the political/historical significance of them.

Conversely, it makes me chuckle when people get so uptight about them having some deep political/historical significance. Although they are strange and exotic to Westerners, bear in mind that in the Middle East they're pretty ubiquitous, sort of like the Arab equivalent of baseball caps. Hell, back when I lived in Egypt a keffiyeh tied around the neck was part of my Boy Scout uniform.

While certainly specific political groups in the Middle East wear certain styles of keffiyeh as a recognizable part of their garb, to suggest that people can't wear them just because they like them is like saying you shouldn't wear red shirts because of the significance of that color in inner city gangs warfare.


That's really not the point at all. Students in Europe and America started wearing them to express solidarity with the Palestinians. It wasn't a fashion thing. It was a sort of civil action to call attention to systematic human rights abuses. Then other people started wearing them because they were "cool."
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ViolentDove

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Re: Let's have a fashion advice thread.
« Reply #903 on: 22 Sep 2008, 21:15 »

You still haven't pointed out exactly what's wrong with people wearing these scarves just because they like them, or like to keep the sun off their neck.
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Jimmy the Squid

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Re: Let's have a fashion advice thread.
« Reply #904 on: 22 Sep 2008, 21:16 »

Because it's offensive.
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Re: Let's have a fashion advice thread.
« Reply #905 on: 22 Sep 2008, 21:31 »

Oh hey you guys do you like my new hat with a swastika on it?  Fuck all that Nazi noise I just think it looks dashing.
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Re: Let's have a fashion advice thread.
« Reply #906 on: 22 Sep 2008, 21:36 »

It's not "offensive." It just makes it pretty obvious that the person knows nothing about why western students started wearing them, or that they give no thought to what they're wearing other than "like, omg, this looks cute!"

It was adopted to be a serious thing. It's not that those who wear it are supporting terrorism or something--they're supporting a people who are oppressed. I just personally think that's more important than some vague fashion.
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Emaline

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Re: Let's have a fashion advice thread.
« Reply #907 on: 22 Sep 2008, 21:38 »

Man, it's lame when hate groups claim really cool symbols, and we can't like reclaim them and shit.
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Re: Let's have a fashion advice thread.
« Reply #908 on: 22 Sep 2008, 21:48 »

I agree, but it's not something that is gonna change, unfortunately.  I am considering growing a "Charlie Chaplin" moustache this November for Movember to reclaim it from Hitler as a valid facial hair choice.  But man, I am not sure I am the right guy for the job.
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Re: Let's have a fashion advice thread.
« Reply #909 on: 22 Sep 2008, 21:52 »

Actually, I see the Charile Chaplin/Hitler statche quite a bit.
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Re: Let's have a fashion advice thread.
« Reply #910 on: 22 Sep 2008, 21:53 »

I agree, but it's not something that is gonna change, unfortunately.  I am considering growing a "Charlie Chaplin" moustache this November for Movember to reclaim it from Hitler as a valid facial hair choice.  But man, I am not sure I am the right guy for the job.

I believe in you.
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Jace

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Re: Let's have a fashion advice thread.
« Reply #911 on: 22 Sep 2008, 23:19 »

I agree, but it's not something that is gonna change, unfortunately.  I am considering growing a "Charlie Chaplin" moustache this November for Movember to reclaim it from Hitler as a valid facial hair choice.  But man, I am not sure I am the right guy for the job.

I believe in you.
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Re: Let's have a fashion advice thread.
« Reply #912 on: 22 Sep 2008, 23:23 »

Actually, I see the Charile Chaplin/Hitler statche quite a bit.

You do?  Man, I am pretty sure people sporting it around here would get The Stares.
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Eris

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Re: Let's have a fashion advice thread.
« Reply #913 on: 22 Sep 2008, 23:24 »

I believe in you.

I believe it will be a long, lonely November if he goes through with it.
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BrittanyMarie

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Re: Let's have a fashion advice thread.
« Reply #914 on: 22 Sep 2008, 23:32 »

Oh, you probably will get The Stares. But really, unless you're Daniel Day-Lewis a mustache generally doesn't add attractiveness points. Just keep it trimmed; I know from experience the feeling of mustache hair going up my nose when smoochin' on a dude who is rocking one. It is not pleasant.
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David_Dovey

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Re: Let's have a fashion advice thread.
« Reply #915 on: 23 Sep 2008, 01:14 »

Oh hey you guys do you like my new hat with a swastika on it?  Fuck all that Nazi noise I just think it looks dashing.

Not a valid analogy. As has been established the keffiyeh is a common piece of clothing among many, many Middle Eastern and North African countries, and that only a certain pattern on a keffiyeh is identifiable with Mr Arafat/Palestine. The swastika is a logo/symbol that was specifically adopted by the Nazi party to represent them and their beliefs. A keffiyeh is just a fucking scarf, worn by people of all political allegiances, some of whom happen to be Palestinian liberationists.

and if anybody comes in here and says something about the swastika being around for thousands of years before being co-opted by the NSDAP then I will give you the crook-eye so hard
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Johnny C

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Re: Let's have a fashion advice thread.
« Reply #916 on: 23 Sep 2008, 02:28 »

Semiotics are tremendously important in all cultures, especially in terms of solidarity with oppressed peoples. The keffiyeh has evolved from its roots as a headdress to represent solidarity with Palestinians, an extremely potent political symbol that, when referred to as "just a fucking scarf," may have its power dampened significantly.

To put it in simpler terms, take this thought exercise. Palestinian designer Nami Jamal has said that "The Palestinian people consider [the keffiyeh] their flag." Now, mentally replace that keffiyeh with an actual flag - say, the gay pride flag.

Were the gay pride flag to become simply a trendy thing to wear on your clothing, stripped of meaning and context, would it be as strong a symbol for the gay community? Would its significance as a means of expressing gay identity become muddled by its unwitting absorption into fashion?
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David_Dovey

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Re: Let's have a fashion advice thread.
« Reply #917 on: 23 Sep 2008, 02:31 »

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Spluff

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Re: Let's have a fashion advice thread.
« Reply #918 on: 23 Sep 2008, 03:25 »

I think I love you.
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jhocking

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Re: Let's have a fashion advice thread.
« Reply #919 on: 23 Sep 2008, 06:37 »

and if anybody comes in here and says something about the swastika being around for thousands of years before being co-opted by the NSDAP then I will give you the crook-eye so hard

I've always wanted to visit a historic Hindu temple with a swastika on it, just to chuckle at the confusion of everyone else in the tour group.

Palestinian designer Nami Jamal has said that "The Palestinian people consider [the keffiyeh] their flag."

Some dude actually said that? Man, talk about pretentiousness. Unless, was he specifically talking about the style of Arafat's keffiyeh?

In fact, it's dawning on me that part of the issue may be people using the generic term "keffiyeh" to refer to Arafat's keffiyeh specifically. I've never actually seen the fashion people are talking about, so I suppose it's possible that the term "keffiyeh" has come to mean "Arafat's keffiyeh" among trendoids. That would be a logical enough development among people who don't realize that, say, the white head cloths Saudis wear are also keffiyehs.

As for me, I return to the Boy Scout uniform thing. I cannot possibly take seriously anything that was part of my Boy Scout uniform.
« Last Edit: 23 Sep 2008, 06:48 by jhocking »
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Katherine

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Re: Let's have a fashion advice thread.
« Reply #920 on: 23 Sep 2008, 09:04 »

rainbow suspenders picture

My dad wears those same suspenders.  With his cut off jean shorts that are so short the pockets hang out below the hem.  He's stylin'.
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Johnny C

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Re: Let's have a fashion advice thread.
« Reply #921 on: 23 Sep 2008, 09:06 »



Think more along the lines of this:





But I see what you mean, fuck fancy college words like "semiotics."

Joe, here's the fashion:





Some dude actually said that? Man, talk about pretentiousness.

Wow, dude. Just... wow.

Sorry if I come off as a little irritable over this but it annoys me that people refuse to understand what's significant about this and why it's a dick move to just wear it as a scarf for fun if you're a Westerner who has no association with or understanding of Middle Eastern politics, or worse if you do understand and you just don't care because it's a funky looking fashion item that comes in red or neon yellow or with Pac-Man on it and that's why you want it. That shows off nothing except tremendous ignorance.

Nobody in Western culture has the right to take a symbol of a genuinely oppressed group and strip it of its power. Absolutely nobody.

By the by, I'm not suggesting that Che Guevara or Chairman Mao are necessarily symbols of oppressed peoples; rather, I was illustrating the difference between an item of fashion that strongly incorporates political symbolism while removing the image's power and a pair or rainbow suspenders.
« Last Edit: 23 Sep 2008, 09:18 by Johnny C »
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october1983

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Re: Let's have a fashion advice thread.
« Reply #922 on: 23 Sep 2008, 09:50 »

Chairman Mao bag

Everyone knows that the ironic veneration of tyrants is the coolest thing.
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Re: Let's have a fashion advice thread.
« Reply #923 on: 23 Sep 2008, 10:00 »

And there's always the Gary Neville Che t-shirt.

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Re: Let's have a fashion advice thread.
« Reply #924 on: 23 Sep 2008, 10:33 »

SYMBOLS AND STUFF
Well, only two of those pictures are of the Palestinian keffiyeh, if that makes a difference. Also, the symbol only has meaning when it is used with that meaning. I mean, what does the red and black flag mean? Does it mean anarchism? Or does it mean that Down are playing in the All-Ireland again? Symbols depend on their context, and keffiyeh wearing in Western societies - especially the wearing of keffiyehs that aren't the Palestinian one - are so devoid of any political meaning, for the most part, as to not be political.
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Re: Let's have a fashion advice thread.
« Reply #925 on: 23 Sep 2008, 10:46 »

Well in all fairness, my Keffiyeh got me laid.  And isnt that what its all about AMIRIGHT!
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Johnny C

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Re: Let's have a fashion advice thread.
« Reply #926 on: 23 Sep 2008, 10:48 »

Symbols depend on their context, and keffiyeh wearing in Western societies - especially the wearing of keffiyehs that aren't the Palestinian one - are so devoid of any political meaning, for the most part, as to not be political.

It's devoid of political meaning only because it was co-opted by people who had no idea what it stood for, which is entirely my point.
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Ozymandias

Re: Let's have a fashion advice thread.
« Reply #927 on: 23 Sep 2008, 10:59 »

Except that, as has been repeatedly explained over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over, only one specific pattern has any even had any political relevance at all.
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Re: Let's have a fashion advice thread.
« Reply #928 on: 23 Sep 2008, 11:25 »

I had never heard of keffiyeh before, although I recognise it in the pictures.

I have a scarf which I wear similiarly, but it's not really anything like the Palestinian pattern. Where would you arguing people say the line is? (I'm asking both sides of the argument here really.)

I can't comment on political symbols but I have to say that I cannot understand the girls who wear scarves with shorts and a tank top. Either you're cold or you aren't.
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Re: Let's have a fashion advice thread.
« Reply #929 on: 23 Sep 2008, 11:41 »

I like those scarves. And yes, I know where they come from. I do not wear one because I do not own one, but do I wear scarves? Yes, quite a bit. I don't really see them as on par with Che shirts, which annoy the shit out of me, but I can see why some people would be annoyed by them. But seeing as how they were and still are practical garments in the middle east, I don't see why westerners can wear them, too, even if they are being worn as fashion accessories. They are nice looking scarves.
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jhocking

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Re: Let's have a fashion advice thread.
« Reply #930 on: 23 Sep 2008, 11:53 »

Joe, here's the fashion:

The red scarf is the one we used to wear. Now that I'm seeing it again, it pretty much just looks like a bandana. No wonder we used that; in Egypt, that would have been orders of magnitude easier to obtain than an actual bandana.


In retrospect, I suppose the term "pretentious" was rather jaw dropping in that context. What I meant was, it is rather presumptuous for one guy (incidentally, you refer to him as a "designer"; who is this guy anyway? when was that statement made?) to lay claim to a common item of clothing as a symbol of his specific community when that item of clothing is already routinely worn in a staggering variety of communities in a huge geographic area, and has been common to every community in that region for hundreds if not thousands of years.

In my mind, to treat the keffiyeh as a special Palestinian thing is what shows tremendous ignorance. Yes, they are an oppressed group and thus deserve special attention, but guess what? So are a lot of the other people who wear keffiyehs! Conversely, a lot of people who wear keffiyehs are not oppressed in the slightest, and are themselves oppressors. When an item of clothing is common in many diverse groups, from the downtrodden Kurds to the exalted Saudis, thinking it is only a Palestinian thing suggests to me someone who knows little about the Middle East. Moreover, this is the subtlest form of ignorance, as it is ignorance manifesting in people who really do care and are earnestly trying to do the right thing.



Incidentally, for what it's worth now that I know about this fashion I find it pretty silly. Sort of like when there was a fashion for wearing camouflage; I'll mock the trendoids dressing that way for looking stupid, but directing moral outrage at them is pretty silly too.



ADDITION: Y'know, now that I'm googling up some articles to learn about this fashion, I'm seeing that the whole issue seems to be one that conservative bloggers were the first to make noise about, only in the sense of Palestinians as terrorists:
http://www.mideastyouth.com/2008/05/31/the-rachel-ray-keffiyeh-fiasco/

So at the risk of being patronising, I'm guessing there's a growing liberal backlash in the opposite direction?

Maybe this discussion should move to DISCUSS. Man, who knew that discussions of fashion would turn into an argument about politics?
« Last Edit: 23 Sep 2008, 12:06 by jhocking »
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Re: Let's have a fashion advice thread.
« Reply #931 on: 23 Sep 2008, 13:35 »

Overall the point is that the scarves are terribly overdone, and the fact that they have become so ubiquitous is making it very difficult for me to accesorize in an interesting way.
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Re: Let's have a fashion advice thread.
« Reply #932 on: 23 Sep 2008, 16:49 »

Man I'm going to go out and buy like fifteen keffiyehs in different colours and make a dress for the next queer mardi-gras parade out of them.
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Re: Let's have a fashion advice thread.
« Reply #933 on: 23 Sep 2008, 20:18 »

I believe in you.

I believe it will be a long, lonely November if he goes through with it.

That's cool, he can hang out with me since my ladyhalf has refused to see me during Novembeard.
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Re: Let's have a fashion advice thread.
« Reply #934 on: 23 Sep 2008, 20:53 »

Actually, I see the Charile Chaplin/Hitler statche quite a bit.
Where is that? The only place I have seen that other than on the faces of the aforementioned two are in manga, I guess there isn't a stigma against it there? The Manji (described in a tour book I was reading for japanese class as a swastika) is still used there to symbolize buddhist shrines that have rooms for rent on maps, might be a case of different in Japan.

The less brightly colored scarves in Johnny's pictures? You know what I would have thought if I had seen one of those? "Oh, hey, a Shemagh, wonder if that guy has it for airsoft." I think that claiming all kinds of those, which are used pretty much ubiquitously in the middle east, as belonging to some cause or another, makes about as much sense as the gay guy that yelled at my friend for wearing tie-dye as a straight person.

Course, tie-dye isn't fashionable, but it is fun to wear with combat boots and camouflage. You get the funniest stares.
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Re: Let's have a fashion advice thread.
« Reply #935 on: 23 Sep 2008, 22:15 »

For my mind there is a difference between wearing a Palestinian style keffiyeh and a smallish ragged-edge scarf with a pattern on it.  The latter is worn about in Japan and seems to still be a fairly stylish thing over there.
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Re: Let's have a fashion advice thread.
« Reply #936 on: 23 Sep 2008, 22:28 »

Quote
In my mind, to treat the keffiyeh as a special Palestinian thing is what shows tremendous ignorance. Yes, they are an oppressed group and thus deserve special attention, but guess what? So are a lot of the other people who wear keffiyehs! Conversely, a lot of people who wear keffiyehs are not oppressed in the slightest, and are themselves oppressors. When an item of clothing is common in many diverse groups, from the downtrodden Kurds to the exalted Saudis, thinking it is only a Palestinian thing suggests to me someone who knows little about the Middle East. Moreover, this is the subtlest form of ignorance, as it is ignorance manifesting in people who really do care and are earnestly trying to do the right thing.

Do you really think that people don't realize they're also worn by Arabs, Kurds, Berbers...most people of the Middle East and the Maghreb? I am saying that people in the west, who never wore keffiyehs and had no cultural or environmental reason to, began to wear them solely for the purpose of a sort of every-day protest against Israelis and in support of Palestinians. It started in Paris and London and spread to the rest of Western Europe and America. No one started wearing them because Saudis or Kurds were. Then it just became a cool/fashionable thing to wear. I really don't know where you get off saying any of that.
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est

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Re: Let's have a fashion advice thread.
« Reply #937 on: 23 Sep 2008, 22:43 »

Man, can we start talking about fashion some time soon or what.
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RedLion

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Re: Let's have a fashion advice thread.
« Reply #938 on: 23 Sep 2008, 22:45 »

I can't wait till it gets a bit colder here so I can wear some of my bitchin' new sweaters.
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Re: Let's have a fashion advice thread.
« Reply #939 on: 23 Sep 2008, 22:49 »

Seriously, what the hell do you guys think fashion is.  Because the Kiffiyeh in the west was grounded in Social Protest/Solidarity, doesnt mean that it must remain so for all of time.  On the contrary, it just happened to be the source of the current fashion.
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Re: Let's have a fashion advice thread.
« Reply #940 on: 23 Sep 2008, 23:04 »

Actually, I see the Charile Chaplin/Hitler statche quite a bit.
Where is that?

St Louis, Missouri. But I know I've seen them in other places as well, and in recent pictures from all over too. It's just a fucking mustache guys, not a death threat. Its not like someone woke up one morning and thought "Gee, I bet if I shave my facial hair this way, all those damn Jews will know how I feel about them." I bet they shaved and were like "hey, this looks alright!"

It's silly to be so offended by a style of hair, or an article of clothing.


I often shave my head into a style known as a Chelsea, I guess. I mean, we had this big discussion on here once, and that was what someone said. Apparently, this style is well liked and worn by female skinheads. I just like it because it means I can keep all the parts U want long, and all the other parts short. I don't dislike any race. I'm not a racist. I'm not a skinhead. But I like that style of hair. The first time I shaved my head this way, I was dating a Jewish guy, and my best friend was black. Neither said anything or cared. They both said it looked good. It's a hairstyle, not a political view. There is nothing to be offended by. Can we please stop getting up in arms about these things? Let the god damn privileged white kids wear their god damn kiffiyehs.




(On a side note, I am a little bit hopped up on anti hive medicine,  so feel free to completely ignore much of what I say.)
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Re: Let's have a fashion advice thread.
« Reply #941 on: 24 Sep 2008, 06:56 »

I am saying that people in the west... began to wear them solely for the purpose of a sort of every-day protest against Israelis and in support of Palestinians. It started in Paris and London and spread to the rest of Western Europe and America.

oh, by "historical significance" I assumed you meant the garment's history in the Middle East.

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Re: Let's have a fashion advice thread.
« Reply #942 on: 24 Sep 2008, 08:09 »

I need a new goddamned wallet.
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Re: Let's have a fashion advice thread.
« Reply #943 on: 24 Sep 2008, 10:09 »

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Re: Let's have a fashion advice thread.
« Reply #944 on: 24 Sep 2008, 11:36 »

jhocking > This thread
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Re: Let's have a fashion advice thread.
« Reply #945 on: 25 Sep 2008, 08:01 »

Fashion thread help me!

I don't know what shoes and accessories to wear with this dress I bought. Also, suitability for a wedding or any other occasions.

I think this wedding will be western/chinese - day time ceremony, large dinner party at night. I was thinking this would be okay for evening.

Edit:Durr. Forgot to post the picture:
« Last Edit: 25 Sep 2008, 08:15 by fatty »
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Re: Let's have a fashion advice thread.
« Reply #946 on: 25 Sep 2008, 08:05 »

Whats the dress look like? and what shoe options do you have?
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Re: Let's have a fashion advice thread.
« Reply #947 on: 25 Sep 2008, 08:29 »

Trainers.
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Re: Let's have a fashion advice thread.
« Reply #948 on: 25 Sep 2008, 08:55 »

Something generally thin and with very little body with thin sandal-y straps (pick one of the blues or purples or pinks on the dress) and a heel of completely unremarkable height.
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Re: Let's have a fashion advice thread.
« Reply #949 on: 25 Sep 2008, 08:57 »

Well. Hmm, that's sort of a colorful dress.. I guess you'd either want to wear something that doesn't show off that you're wearing shoes, or something that is colorful like the dress? Maybe white or cream colored flats or heels would go well with it. Just something you'd want to wear all day, I guess.
It might be one of my pet peeves, but I really dislike when girls wear heels, then take them off 1/4 through the night because they aren't used to wearing them and their feet hurt. If you are going to wear shoes, suck it up or I'll start dropping thumbtacks.
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