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Author Topic: Post-Hardcore, or An Exercise in Genre Nebulousness  (Read 4916 times)

Christophe

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So, I have to admit that I'm kind of a sucker for genre categorization. A fair amount of the bands I enjoy on a regular basis can probably be pigeonholed into genres like post-punk, math rock, post-rock, so on and so forth... and then there's Post-Hardcore.

If you take a look at the Wikipedia talk page for the genre's article (full disclosure: I edit this article quite a bit), there are about ten shitloads of debate about what the genre entails, and a fair amount of people claim that stuff like Scary Kids Scaring Kids, Saosin, Red Jumpsuit Apparatus, Underoath, and varied other really bad bands are part of the genre. My general problem with putting those bands under this genre is that there is virtually no influence from the older bands to the supposed newer ones. I guess what I'm trying to say is that there is no way to put any kind of logical lineage between, say Fugazi and these cocks. (Note to Alesana: The Icarus Line called, they want their black shirts and red ties back.) Of course, the problem is that the definition of the genre itself:

Quote from: Wikipedia
Post-hardcore is typically characterized by its precise rhythms and loud guitar-based instrumentation accompanied by a combination of clean vocals and screams. Allmusic states, "These newer bands, termed post-hardcore, often found complex and dynamic ways of blowing off steam that generally went outside the strict hardcore realm of 'loud fast rules.' ... Additionally, many of these bands' vocalists were just as likely to deliver their lyrics with a whispered croon as they were a maniacal yelp."[2] The genre has developed a balance of dissonance and melody, in part channeling the loud and fast hardcore ethos into more measured, subtle forms of tension and release. Jeff Terich of Treblezine states, "Instead of sticking to [hardcore's] rigid constraints, these artists expanded beyond power chords and gang vocals, incorporating more creative outlets for punk rock energy."[4]

can be used to describe bands like Fugazi and bands like Alesana.

Even bands like Franz Ferdinand and Interpol, whatever your opinions of them, can at least point back to post-punk bands like Josef K, Gang of Four, Echo and the Bunnymen et al as influences and reference points (regardless of how well you think those influences are articulated in their music). I highly doubt that anyone in Alesana has a Fugazi album, and if they did, they were probably snorting coke off of it.

So: am I being insanely pretentious about something as completely vague as a fucking genre of music, or am I justified in claiming that people have no basis in categorizing newer so-called "post-hardcore" bands in that genre? Let's talk, people, because I am all different kinds of confused when it comes to this goddamned genre.
« Last Edit: 12 Oct 2008, 15:37 by TheLetterM »
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imapiratearg

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Re: Post-Hardcore, or An Exercise in Genre Nebulousness
« Reply #1 on: 12 Oct 2008, 10:42 »

I guess what I'm trying to say is that there is no way to put any kind of logical lineage between, say Fugazi and these cocks. (Note to Alesana: The Icarus Line called, they want their black shirts and red ties back.)

Hot Cross called, they want their riffs back.

It sounds like you might be being a bit pretentious, but I am guilty of the same thing and telling people that bands like Alesana, The Used and other shitty pop punk bands that are labeled "emo" these days really aren't emo bands.
« Last Edit: 12 Oct 2008, 10:47 by imapiratearg »
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Christophe

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Re: Post-Hardcore, or An Exercise in Genre Nebulousness
« Reply #2 on: 12 Oct 2008, 11:27 »

Yeah. I guess there's just an underlying problem in categorizing underground bands in that a lot of it is done in retrospect. It's almost never the bands that say what genre they exist in, but music journalists who need a way to categorize bands.

Quote from: Guy Picciotto
I've never recognized "emo" as a genre of music. I always thought it was the most retarded term ever. I know there is this generic commonplace that every band that gets labeled with that term hates it. They feel scandalized by it. But honestly, I just thought that all the bands I played in were punk rock bands.

Quote from: Matt Sweeney
It was invented by a friend of ours as a derogatory term for a band me and James (Lo) played in called Wider. But his whole joke is that he'd watch the song and not react at all, and then take out his calculator to figure out how good the song was. So he'd call it math rock, and it was a total diss, as it should be.

Picciotto would probably call bullshit on any discussion of terms like "post-hardcore" as well, but the fact remains that people still categorize bands into genres, no matter how undefined or nebulous or ultimately ridiculous they get.
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Be My Head

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Re: Post-Hardcore, or An Exercise in Genre Nebulousness
« Reply #3 on: 12 Oct 2008, 13:24 »

I'm going to start a Neo-Classical Post-Technical- Blackened Death Metal band
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David_Dovey

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Re: Post-Hardcore, or An Exercise in Genre Nebulousness
« Reply #4 on: 12 Oct 2008, 13:42 »

I'd like to reiterate my belief that to a certain extent, genre labels are incredibly useful. Obviously when they get any longer than five words you are probably over-thinking it and making the purpose of classifying music utterly redundant but being able to say "x band is punk rock" or "x band is death metal" is pretty good (at least as a starting point) when trying to explain what a band does to someone who otherwise has no idea.
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sean

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Re: Post-Hardcore, or An Exercise in Genre Nebulousness
« Reply #5 on: 12 Oct 2008, 14:28 »

Hot Cross called, they want their riffs back.

Not after what they did to them.

Notice how Hot Cross broke up about a month after this video was put out.
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Melodic

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Re: Post-Hardcore, or An Exercise in Genre Nebulousness
« Reply #6 on: 12 Oct 2008, 17:27 »

This is the first topic about post-hardcore that actually makes the teeniest bit of sense. Like, good job dude. Genres suck and this thread does not.
« Last Edit: 12 Oct 2008, 17:36 by Melodic »
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imapiratearg

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Re: Post-Hardcore, or An Exercise in Genre Nebulousness
« Reply #7 on: 12 Oct 2008, 19:57 »

Now that I think about it, that Alesana band you linked to could sound a little like Rites of Spring and Drive Like Jehu put together, if you took away all the talent.
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ALoveSupreme

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Re: Post-Hardcore, or An Exercise in Genre Nebulousness
« Reply #8 on: 12 Oct 2008, 20:00 »

so, the video didn't work for me... I watched "apology"(?) instead.

...woah, that guy want's to be Dennis Lyxzen sooooo bad.

Actually, I don't mind the "screamed" vocals, I sorta like his ultra-raspy tone.

Anyways....

Hot Cross is pretty great.  I always did dig Saetia better, though.

I never figured out where the line crosses from post-hardcore (in the legitimate sense that we are trying to uncover in this thread) and emo (again, in it's more legitimate sense).  At least, it always seemed a little vague to me.
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Christophe

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Re: Post-Hardcore, or An Exercise in Genre Nebulousness
« Reply #9 on: 12 Oct 2008, 20:15 »

Now that I think about it, that Alesana band you linked to could sound a little like Rites of Spring and Drive Like Jehu put together, if you took away all the talent.
That is a really horrible and depressing revelation.

The most annoying thing about this is that THERE ARE A MILLION BANDS OUT THERE THAT SOUND EXACTLY LIKE ALESANA.

I.E.:
*This band, "LoveHateHero". They have had the honor of playing my college like twice, and my school was only founded in 2005, so there's not a whole lot of shows that happen here (I'm actually planning a rad one for those in the California Central Valley area). These guys excel at sucking so hard.
*Enter fucking Shikari. Same "nu-post-hardcore" template with a healthy dose of rave thrown in for good measure. I'm just going to go out and say it: with the notable exception of McLusky and Future of The Left (Untitled Musical Project, you sound way too NME-friendly so you guys don't count), the United Kingdom has no fucking clue how to do Post-Hardcore. I give a sincere plea to any denizen of the UK to prove me wrong. Please. Prove me wrong so hard and make me eat my words with a side order of castor oil or something and I will be forever indebted to you.

Sometimes I just want to take a time machine and destroy the hell out of the master tapes of The Shape of Punk to Come, because as boss as that album was, it's spawned some horrible, horrible music over the last decade. ATD-I's Relationship With A Man (yes I'm calling it that, blame Buddyhead), I'm looking at you too.
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imapiratearg

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Re: Post-Hardcore, or An Exercise in Genre Nebulousness
« Reply #10 on: 12 Oct 2008, 20:27 »

It is indeed a frightening connection.
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David_Dovey

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Re: Post-Hardcore, or An Exercise in Genre Nebulousness
« Reply #11 on: 12 Oct 2008, 20:41 »

hm, I never considered mclusky/FoTL to be post-hardcore. It really never occurred to me.
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Melodic

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Re: Post-Hardcore, or An Exercise in Genre Nebulousness
« Reply #12 on: 12 Oct 2008, 21:00 »

To be fair, now you're just whining about bands because they are grouped into the same genre as Drive Like Jehu. Post-hardcore is about as good a genre as "indie" is, and it's obvious that its meaning has been corrupted in recent years. But if you're going to rag on every post-hardcore band that doesn't sound like Fugazi, you've got a lot of ranting to do.
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Christophe

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Re: Post-Hardcore, or An Exercise in Genre Nebulousness
« Reply #13 on: 12 Oct 2008, 21:44 »

Yeah, I think I'll stop my inane ranting to allow some better discussion on this thread. I have a tendency to over-rant.
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Thrillho

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Re: Post-Hardcore, or An Exercise in Genre Nebulousness
« Reply #14 on: 13 Oct 2008, 01:18 »

Prove me wrong so hard and make me eat my words with a side order of castor oil or something and I will be forever indebted to you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhvJvHvb2mo - Hell is for Heroes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4mCdcQiUOY&feature=related - Hundred Reasons
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dM_O2svHIb0 - to a lesser extent, early Funeral for a Friend
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ImRonBurgundy?

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Re: Post-Hardcore, or An Exercise in Genre Nebulousness
« Reply #15 on: 13 Oct 2008, 02:16 »

It sounds like you might be being a bit pretentious, but I am guilty of the same thing and telling people that bands like Alesana, The Used and other shitty pop punk bands that are labeled "emo" these days really aren't emo bands.

Bands like that are so far removed from punk that I don't think you can accurately describe them as "pop-punk".  I mean, I'll accept even Blink-182 and New Found Glory as being pop-punk bands, but there's got to be a line SOMEwhere, right?

Also, The Nation of Ulysses is awesome.
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Christophe

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Re: Post-Hardcore, or An Exercise in Genre Nebulousness
« Reply #16 on: 13 Oct 2008, 07:50 »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhvJvHvb2mo - Hell is for Heroes
I'm not sure how much I liked the vocals in this song, kind of like Geoff Rickly without the annoying vocal tics. The music itself was pretty good, and the noise section in the middle of the song was really rad. All in all, this song didn't suck, that's for sure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4mCdcQiUOY&feature=related - Hundred Reasons
Didn't really like this band. They just sounded pretty generic alt-rock to me. It definitely could have been a lot worse though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dM_O2svHIb0 - to a lesser extent, early Funeral for a Friend
I kind of liked the guy's screamy voice. The music, unfortunately, still sounded (to me at least) like every other "emo"/"post-hardcore" band I've heard. At the very least, they kicked the living shit out of Alesana. Man, it's going to be hard to top Alesana in unbearaboribillity, that is for sure.

Not eating my words yet... but it's a good start.
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