THESE FORUMS NOW CLOSED (read only)

  • 25 May 2024, 14:42
  • Welcome, Guest
Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 6 7 [8] 9   Go Down

Author Topic: Atheist Penelope  (Read 173391 times)

KeepACoolin

  • Furry furrier
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 163
Re: Atheist Penelope
« Reply #350 on: 29 Jul 2009, 11:54 »

You know that- theoretically; I will not here press any claims- that's the equivalent of saying something like "I can't be bothered to be immunized against polio/bubonic plague/hepatitis/meningitis/various other potentially deadly diseases, they haven't made any impression on my life!"

My point being here that- again, theoretically- you could be dealing with the fate of your being for eternity.

Mind you, I will not demand or even (at this point) suggest that you adopt that view.  I just remind you that the potential stakes are quite high.

I disagree with that as well. I'm preety sure that with the current state I've lived my life, even being a proclaimed atheist, and not having attended mass once in my life, if there was a god, i wouldn't be in danger of being eternally damned.
Why? Because in some ways, I do follow some of the basic rules of religion. Not because I'm afraid of eternal damnation if i don't, but because it's the right thing to do.
Following a dogma because you're afraid of the repercussions isn't really what i call enligthenment. Following your ideas, the fact that you should, whenever possible, avoid hurting the people around you, and help those that you can, purely because it is what YOU believe is right; THAT is what life should be about.

It also has the advantage of not causing fanatism and religious wars. Believe in god if you will, but following every single one of the dogmas written down in the Coran, the Bible, the Torah or whichever religious book you're following is listening to the voices of men that have died 1500 to 3000 years ago, when times were very different.

You should keep the general ideas, but do you really need the protocol?

Bottom line is, as long as i live a good life, I don't believe a potential god would condemn me to hell over a technicality. And if he does, he doesn't deserve any of us to believe in him.
You're mixing in specifically Catholic doctrines with Christianity in general: remember that Protestant churches believe in sola fide salvation- by faith alone.  "Obeying the rules" is not what Christianity is about.  Secondly, I don't see why ideas from the ancient past should be considered a priori invalid.  Third, I don't support religious wars despite being a dogmatic Christian.  What's so weird about that?  Lastly, just because I believe in Heaven and Hell does not mean that I am motivated solely by fear of punishment or desire for reward.  I only even brought it up in response to other people talking about their complete apathy toward the ideas and questions of theism/atheism.
Logged
Keep a coolin' baby.

KeepACoolin

  • Furry furrier
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 163
Re: Atheist Penelope
« Reply #351 on: 29 Jul 2009, 11:56 »

Also, I really, really wish people would stop dredging up Pascal's Wager. It was never conceived as a serious argument in favour of religion. Anyways, you have to take into consideration that at least one other religion, Islam, also threatens an eternal hell. Hell, even the Talmud states that Christians go to hell forever, boiling in feces, no less. Then you have all different interpretations of the Bible and Qu'ran, and whatever other wierdo religions believe in Hell, even private fucking revelations, and you have to adhere to every one of them to truly take the Wager. Except you can't, because some of them would get jealous and throw you into hell anyways.
I have never advanced Pascal's Wager as a specifically Christian argument, nor should it be considered as such: it is a generically theistic argument.  And I was more interested in pointing out the potential mistake in being completely uninterested in the sort of questions that atheism and theism each bring up.  I think confronting the questions of God, eternity, etc. is a necessary step in developing a coherent worldview.  I think it is essential as a part of determining what to do with your life, even if you do ultimately reject the idea of God.

I reject the suggestion that I HAVE TO consider the whole god/no god question, what difference is it going to make in terms of my view of the world? None so far as i can tell. The world is the world, it will always be what it is wether god exists or doesnt or even if i decided that its not important at all - the world will not change just because of my personal beliefs.

Now, keep in mind, i am an (admitadly amature) writer, so the suggestion that THINKING the world is different DOES make it different is not lost on me. The problem with this idea is that the only thing that has changed is our own perception of reality. The imutable laws that goven the existence of reality dont get re-writen, we just percive them differently. Take two people, one who can see normaly, and another who is colour blind. Put a coloured object infront of them and they will give differing answers, but just because the colour blind person percieves a different colour due to thier condition the actual object does not change its colour IN REALITY!

>GASP< pant pant pant... oh sweet air! To take a breath again!
If that is your viewpoint then you have already (possibly unconsciously) adopted an atheistic view of the universe.  The only way you could be sure that your own ideas about God (or His nonexistence) do not matter would be if He did not exist.  By saying that it makes no difference whether or not you consider the questions only reveals that you have already decided.
Logged
Keep a coolin' baby.

chronoplasm

  • Plantmonster
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 25
Re: Atheist Penelope
« Reply #352 on: 29 Jul 2009, 15:31 »

Now, I'm an atheist, but I often find myself questioning...
...and wondering...
...if maybe Thor and Valhalla really exist.

My soul could be in peril! If the Nordic beliefs are true, and I don't die gloriously in battle, I could be doomed to wander the underworld for all eternity!
On the other hand, if it is true, and I do die bravely as the Vikings once did, then perhaps the Valkyries might take me to drink and revel in the golden halls Valhalla until the battle of Ragnarok at the end of time.

I can't prove that the Aesir don't exist, so maybe I should join the ARMY and go die in a foreign war, just to be on the safe side.
*edit*
...if it's not true though... then no harm done, right?
« Last Edit: 29 Jul 2009, 15:35 by chronoplasm »
Logged

Delirium

  • FIGHT YOU
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 396
  • WE CLEANSE OUR DESTINY
Re: Atheist Penelope
« Reply #353 on: 29 Jul 2009, 15:35 »

I hear Hel isn't all that bad.
Logged

jonarus_drakus

  • Bizarre cantaloupe phobia
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 211
  • Marigold and Pintsize's lovechild
Re: Atheist Penelope
« Reply #354 on: 29 Jul 2009, 17:07 »

@KeepACoolin:

Actually, i HAVNT decided, I am very much open to the (however unlikely) posibility that at some point in the future i may come to  change my beliefs. As it is my only solid belief is that i should live my life the same way reguardless of the whole god/no god question. I dont bother to "ask the question" because i dont see how it would change how i live on a day-to-day basis.

I feel i should add a bit of background here. I was raised as a Christian (mother was a Dutch Christian -protistant variation i believe-, my father an American 'Church of England' Protostant), and we went to church every sunday as a family (at least every sunday during which everyone was actually home). During these days of childish ignorence i believed in God, went to Christian schools, and even acted as an Alter-boy for TWO YEARS. But as i got older, i came to feel that what i saw around me was not the 'gift from a higher power' i had been told. Sience and reason told me that there was a simpler, more tangible reason for things. As time went on even more i realised my 'sience above all' was just as narrow as the religious beliefs of my youth. This in turn lead me to the belief i hold now, that the question of wether or not god is there, or that sience can explain all, is only a distraction, an excuse used by those who lack the intilect and will to chose thier own path, free of ALL outside influence.

NOTE: I dont believe that failing to adopt this view is an indication of a weak intilect or will, just that those who are lacking dont realise that the choice is thiers to begin with, and thier failure to realise this is due to a failure to question thier world, thier reality. I hope this makes sense, its pretty heady stuff, even to myself.
Logged
EVERYTHING IS RUINED FOREVER!!

KeepACoolin

  • Furry furrier
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 163
Re: Atheist Penelope
« Reply #355 on: 29 Jul 2009, 18:02 »

Mind you, I will not demand or even (at this point) suggest that you adopt that view.  I just remind you that the potential stakes are quite high.

Nonsense.  Before you can remind me about stakes, you have to convince me that there's even a game.  I've yet to see any evidence of such.
The "game" is merely the existence of the universe.  I include atheism as a wholly valid resolution- what I mean to say is that the question of the existence of God, whether it results in an answer of yes or no, is one of high importance.
Logged
Keep a coolin' baby.

KeepACoolin

  • Furry furrier
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 163
Re: Atheist Penelope
« Reply #356 on: 29 Jul 2009, 18:09 »

Now, I'm an atheist, but I often find myself questioning...
...and wondering...
...if maybe Thor and Valhalla really exist.

My soul could be in peril! If the Nordic beliefs are true, and I don't die gloriously in battle, I could be doomed to wander the underworld for all eternity!
On the other hand, if it is true, and I do die bravely as the Vikings once did, then perhaps the Valkyries might take me to drink and revel in the golden halls Valhalla until the battle of Ragnarok at the end of time.

I can't prove that the Aesir don't exist, so maybe I should join the ARMY and go die in a foreign war, just to be on the safe side.
*edit*
...if it's not true though... then no harm done, right?
My point is that the question should be confronted.  You have already confronted the question, and decided in the negative.  Okay.  My point is that the question should be confronted.

Also, @jonarus, I don't mean by "confronting the question" that you need to decide for your entire lifetime.  And again, the attitudes you espouse suggest that you already hold an atheistic worldview: obviously if Yahweh exists (to be somewhat more specific), His existence is the most important thing in the universe and to say that coming to believe in His existence would not change your life is to either be absurd or implicitly atheist.

And I don't mean to be rude, but I don't find your philosophy "heady" at all.  I think it is a common attitude and one that, again, presumes the nonexistence of God.  By making the claim that humanity's freedom of individual choice is the supreme value, you are already assuming that God, at least as described by the Judeo-Christian-Islamic faiths, is not real.  Otherwise, the existence of an omnibenevolent, omnipotent, and eternal being would by default be the most significant fact of existence.
Logged
Keep a coolin' baby.

jonarus_drakus

  • Bizarre cantaloupe phobia
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 211
  • Marigold and Pintsize's lovechild
Re: Atheist Penelope
« Reply #357 on: 29 Jul 2009, 18:37 »

Meh, perhaps. As i recall tho, "God" is supposed to be extreamly supportive of Free will and all that...

My only remaining point (on a personal level) is that i could be convinced of the existence of God, i just cant be bothered to ask the questions that would be neccisary to get a satisfactory answer.
Logged
EVERYTHING IS RUINED FOREVER!!

KeepACoolin

  • Furry furrier
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 163
Re: Atheist Penelope
« Reply #358 on: 29 Jul 2009, 18:57 »

" i just cant be bothered to ask the questions that would be neccisary to get a satisfactory answer."

And that's exactly where I think you go wrong.  Well, in any case, I am now done with this conversation- it's starting to get redundant from my perspective.  By the way, that was not supposed to be rude or insulting.
Logged
Keep a coolin' baby.

chronoplasm

  • Plantmonster
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 25
Re: Atheist Penelope
« Reply #359 on: 29 Jul 2009, 19:18 »


My point is that the question should be confronted.  You have already confronted the question, and decided in the negative.  Okay.  My point is that the question should be confronted.

You keep asserting this point, but I'm not seeing much of an argument to back it up. ...Except for the whole threat of damnation thing, but look:

There's an infinite number of possible hells I can be damned to for an infinite number of possible gods I don't believe in. None of them can be disproven. None of them can be proven to be more likely than any of the others.
If I throw my lots in with any one, it's a total crapshoot; any god I chose to worship could be the wrong one and then I could be damned.
If I throw my lots in with all of them, I might still be damned.
If I don't throw in my lots with any of them, I could still be damned.
No matter what I chose, the odds are most likely that I'm damned.
Any answer I can provide to this question is just a shot in the dark. The odds of hitting the truth are practically nil, but if I miss I'm fucked.
Logged

Delirium

  • FIGHT YOU
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 396
  • WE CLEANSE OUR DESTINY
Re: Atheist Penelope
« Reply #360 on: 29 Jul 2009, 19:19 »

If God wants me to believe in him, why did he make me an atheist?
Logged

KeepACoolin

  • Furry furrier
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 163
Re: Atheist Penelope
« Reply #361 on: 29 Jul 2009, 20:36 »

I could answer again, but this is getting horribly boring and redundant.  I'm done.
Logged
Keep a coolin' baby.

Delirium

  • FIGHT YOU
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 396
  • WE CLEANSE OUR DESTINY
Re: Atheist Penelope
« Reply #362 on: 29 Jul 2009, 21:33 »

I'll chalk that up as a win.
Logged

Surgoshan

  • Duck attack survivor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,801
Re: Atheist Penelope
« Reply #363 on: 29 Jul 2009, 21:58 »

Mind you, I will not demand or even (at this point) suggest that you adopt that view.  I just remind you that the potential stakes are quite high.

Nonsense.  Before you can remind me about stakes, you have to convince me that there's even a game.  I've yet to see any evidence of such.
The "game" is merely the existence of the universe.  I include atheism as a wholly valid resolution- what I mean to say is that the question of the existence of God, whether it results in an answer of yes or no, is one of high importance.

No, the proposed game is the existence of an afterlife.  The existence of the universe is so obvious that arguing about it is something only foolish philosophers do, and then only in the privacy of their own bedrooms (also, potheads, and they'll do anything in public, even read their own poetry). 

The afterlife is not obvious and, to my knowledge, unproven in the extreme.
Logged

KeepACoolin

  • Furry furrier
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 163
Re: Atheist Penelope
« Reply #364 on: 29 Jul 2009, 22:08 »

I'll chalk that up as a win.
That sounds like desperation.  And, yes, I know I'm responding- whatever.

And no, the game is not the existence of an afterlife.  The existence of an afterlife is a conclusion that might be drawn as a result of playing the game, which means deciding what you believe about the nature of the universe- for instance, whether or not life ends at death.  And I agree that it's obvious- I think that a person living logically MUST decide about the universe.
Logged
Keep a coolin' baby.

jonarus_drakus

  • Bizarre cantaloupe phobia
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 211
  • Marigold and Pintsize's lovechild
Re: Atheist Penelope
« Reply #365 on: 29 Jul 2009, 22:18 »

I'll chalk that up as a win.
That sounds like desperation.  And, yes, I know I'm responding- whatever.

And no, the game is not the existence of an afterlife.  The existence of an afterlife is a conclusion that might be drawn as a result of playing the game, which means deciding what you believe about the nature of the universe- for instance, whether or not life ends at death.  And I agree that it's obvious- I think that a person living logically MUST decide about the universe.

And I am of the opinion that there is no NECISITY to come to any conclusion, or even consider the options at all. Thats not to say that any given DOES need to decide what to do with thier own life  (duh) but the big questions need not be considered as they will at most effect the individual own perception of reality, while reality itself will in actual fact remain the same.

@KeepACoolin: Do you at least accept my assertation that wether a person 'asks the question' or not is entire up to that person, and that the only things that would compel him/her to ask are things that exist within thier own mind as determind by thier own perception of reality? - PS: Your last response to a post of mine was not taken offensively, your welcome to your opinion, and i was kinda tiring of the discussion myself...

And on that note, laterz!
Logged
EVERYTHING IS RUINED FOREVER!!

Is it cold in here?

  • Administrator
  • Awakened
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 25,163
  • He/him/his pronouns
Re: Atheist Penelope
« Reply #366 on: 29 Jul 2009, 22:19 »

The crux (sorry) of the disagreement between Pennelope and Wil wasn't about the existence of God, though. What set her off was his talk about ghosts and spirits. She didn't even mention God until her rant had already picked up a full head of steam.
Logged
Thank you, Dr. Karikó.

Delirium

  • FIGHT YOU
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 396
  • WE CLEANSE OUR DESTINY
Re: Atheist Penelope
« Reply #367 on: 29 Jul 2009, 23:19 »

Damn, she gets pissy at a poet (one who styles himself after Poe, no less) for talking about ghosts and spirits?
Logged

Is it cold in here?

  • Administrator
  • Awakened
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 25,163
  • He/him/his pronouns
Re: Atheist Penelope
« Reply #368 on: 30 Jul 2009, 00:40 »

Makes you wonder what on earth she was expecting.
Logged
Thank you, Dr. Karikó.

Pypoli

  • Plantmonster
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 29
Re: Atheist Penelope
« Reply #369 on: 30 Jul 2009, 06:44 »

I'll chalk that up as a win.
That sounds like desperation.  And, yes, I know I'm responding- whatever.

And no, the game is not the existence of an afterlife.  The existence of an afterlife is a conclusion that might be drawn as a result of playing the game, which means deciding what you believe about the nature of the universe- for instance, whether or not life ends at death.  And I agree that it's obvious- I think that a person living logically MUST decide about the universe.

As important as the existence of god might be to the universe, what difference does it make to you, as an infinitesimal part of the universe if he exists or not. His point is that, wether or not he chooses to believe in god - if he does at some point in life actually bother to make that decision - will not change the way he lives his life. Therefore, the existence, or inexistence, of god, is entirely unimportant to his continued existence, and any time spent reflecting upon that is time that would be better spent doing something else.

I disagree with his point. I think it's important to know where you stand on certain issues. You can have decided, one way or another, you can be uncertain, but to entirely not care about a matter that is so important to so many people around you, and therefore have an impact on the overall functioning of the world is slightly ... well ... childish.
Logged

jonarus_drakus

  • Bizarre cantaloupe phobia
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 211
  • Marigold and Pintsize's lovechild
Re: Atheist Penelope
« Reply #370 on: 30 Jul 2009, 11:14 »

Well i think making decisions for the sake of making decisions is childish. Maturity is knowing when/if a decision is needed, and i dont see any such need
Logged
EVERYTHING IS RUINED FOREVER!!

chronoplasm

  • Plantmonster
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 25
Re: Atheist Penelope
« Reply #371 on: 30 Jul 2009, 14:00 »

Who would win in a fight between Godzilla and Superman?
I think it's important for everyone to know where they stand on this issue.
Logged

KeepACoolin

  • Furry furrier
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 163
Re: Atheist Penelope
« Reply #372 on: 30 Jul 2009, 14:41 »

Superman, obviously, as he is immortal.  Unless you gave Godzilla kryptonite breath, which would make him super badass.
Logged
Keep a coolin' baby.

chronoplasm

  • Plantmonster
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 25
Re: Atheist Penelope
« Reply #373 on: 30 Jul 2009, 22:23 »

I think maybe the Japanese government, in an attempt to take out both threats, would equip Mecha-Godzilla with a Kryptonite katana. Mecha-Godzilla would defeat Super-Man, but Godzilla would defeat Mecha-Godzilla, thus defeating Super-Man by extension.
Bat-Man would beat everyone though, because Bat-Man would be prepared.
Logged

JohnWWells

  • Guest
Re: Atheist Penelope
« Reply #374 on: 30 Jul 2009, 23:02 »

Superman. Even if Godzilla had kryptonite breath, Superman could use his super-speed to surprise him from behind, pick him up, and fling him into space.

All bets are off if it's a Godzilla/Mothra tag-team, though.
Logged

chronoplasm

  • Plantmonster
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 25
Re: Atheist Penelope
« Reply #375 on: 30 Jul 2009, 23:21 »

Ah, yes, Mothra.
The question of whether Mothra exists and whether she would team up with Godzilla in a fight is quite an important issue. If Mothra truly did exist, it would quite possibly be one of the most important things in the Universe.
Logged

thedeity05

  • Notorious N.U.R.R.
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2
Re: Atheist Penelope
« Reply #376 on: 27 Aug 2009, 11:26 »

hmm, where is this god anyway?
Logged
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
    Through passion, I gain strength.
    Through strength, I gain power.
    Through power, I gain victory.
    Through victory, my chains are broken.

LeeC

  • Nearly grown up
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8,031
  • Be excellent to each other, party on Dudes!
Re: Atheist Penelope
« Reply #377 on: 27 Aug 2009, 11:28 »

PenPen is one of those militaristic atheists who feel the need to attack others believes because they are not their own, much like Christian monasteries throughout history.
Logged
You see, there are still faint glimmers of civilization left in this barbaric slaughterhouse that was once known as humanity. Indeed that's what we provide in our own modest, humble, insignificant... oh, fuck it. - M. Gustave

Alex C

  • comeback tour!
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5,915
Re: Atheist Penelope
« Reply #378 on: 27 Aug 2009, 12:16 »

I'd rather be a militaristic atheist than the sort of Pollyannish person who dodges the issue entirely and asks instead that religious people merely "keep it to themselves" and cannot even fathom having a strong stance on the subject one way or the other. Religions routinely make profound claims about the nature of the universe. It's important to debate and discuss these ideas because whether they're true or not has ethical and moral implications that spill over to day to day life whether people acknowledge it or not. To essentially tell an evangelist "Well, yes, I realize you believe there's an absolute moral authority to the universe. But to be honest, I'd rather be watching TV right now" is a bit condescending in its own right when you consider the enormity of their claims. I disagree with them quite strongly but I don't really discount what they have to say out of hand either.
Logged
the ship has Dr. Pepper but not Mr. Pibb; it's an absolute goddamned travesty

Is it cold in here?

  • Administrator
  • Awakened
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 25,163
  • He/him/his pronouns
Re: Atheist Penelope
« Reply #379 on: 27 Aug 2009, 12:25 »

When's Pennelope attacked anybody? Even verbally? She never went beyond incredulity with Wil.
Logged
Thank you, Dr. Karikó.

Delirium

  • FIGHT YOU
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 396
  • WE CLEANSE OUR DESTINY
Re: Atheist Penelope
« Reply #380 on: 27 Aug 2009, 14:54 »

I'd rather be a militaristic atheist than the sort of Pollyannish person who dodges the issue entirely and asks instead that religious people merely "keep it to themselves" and cannot even fathom having a strong stance on the subject one way or the other. Religions routinely make profound claims about the nature of the universe. It's important to debate and discuss these ideas because whether they're true or not has ethical and moral implications that spill over to day to day life whether people acknowledge it or not. To essentially tell an evangelist "Well, yes, I realize you believe there's an absolute moral authority to the universe. But to be honest, I'd rather be watching TV right now" is a bit condescending in its own right when you consider the enormity of their claims. I disagree with them quite strongly but I don't really discount what they have to say out of hand either.
I'd be perfectly happy to leave everyone to their own beliefs as long as they keep them to themselves, but to be honest, most don't. As long as they're doing shit like legislating against abortion/proper sex-ed/LGBT rights/etc, brainwashing their children, or attempting to institute sharia law, I see it as my human obligation to attempt to disillusion them of their beliefs by any means necessary.
Logged

KeepACoolin

  • Furry furrier
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 163
Re: Atheist Penelope
« Reply #381 on: 27 Aug 2009, 15:55 »

You do realize that "keeping it to yourself" does not really mesh with beliefs like those of Christianity, right?  If I genuinely believe (as I do) that everything is at stake depending on a person's relationship with God, and I "keep it to myself," am I not quite literally telling you "go to hell?"  That's a lot like suggesting that doctors and their newfangled "medicine" keep it to themselves.

Obviously, I know you think that Christianity is pointless (or, possibly, if you are a Hitchens disciple, positively harmful), but remember that from my perspective it is vitally important that you believe in certain things and act in certain ways.
Logged
Keep a coolin' baby.

Delirium

  • FIGHT YOU
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 396
  • WE CLEANSE OUR DESTINY
Re: Atheist Penelope
« Reply #382 on: 27 Aug 2009, 16:02 »

I have no problem with you telling me of your beliefs and why I should believe in them, as long as you do not persist when I ask you to stop. After that, it is harassment by any definition.
Logged

KeepACoolin

  • Furry furrier
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 163
Re: Atheist Penelope
« Reply #383 on: 27 Aug 2009, 16:47 »

brainwashing their children,

In that case, shouldn't you be railing against any religion that survives for longer than one generation? Paraphrasing Doug Stanhope, and probably lots of other people as well - if you hadn't been indoctrinated by your parents from the times when you still believed Santa was real, and just so happened upon the bible in a used bookstore, you're not going to convert to Christianity.
I know tons of adult converts, or late-teen converts from non-Christian homes.  It happens all the time.  It happened to Europe, essentially.  Undoubtedly more people who are Christian had at least some exposure to it in their homes, but not by any means all of them.
Logged
Keep a coolin' baby.

cerement

  • Plantmonster
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 31
    • cerement @ friendfeed
Re: Atheist Penelope
« Reply #384 on: 27 Aug 2009, 18:51 »

As a friend once reminded me, even if Heaven exists, all the really interesting people are going to be in Hell. Mark Twain certainly isn't getting into Heaven. No way is anyone allowing Sir Richard Burton into Heaven. And the Christian Bible makes it pretty clear that even if you are good, you're not getting in unless you believe. So no long discussions on traveling with Ibn Battuta, no sitting and meditating with Buddha, no sharing a joke or erotic poem with Rumi ...
Logged

H0b0K!n9

  • Plantmonster
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 28
  • You WILL respect the fedora!
Re: Atheist Penelope
« Reply #385 on: 27 Aug 2009, 19:45 »

As a friend once reminded me, even if Heaven exists, all the really interesting people are going to be in Hell. Mark Twain certainly isn't getting into Heaven. No way is anyone allowing Sir Richard Burton into Heaven. And the Christian Bible makes it pretty clear that even if you are good, you're not getting in unless you believe. So no long discussions on traveling with Ibn Battuta, no sitting and meditating with Buddha, no sharing a joke or erotic poem with Rumi ...


This is a fact. How am I supposed to meet Jimmy Hendrix if I go to Heaven?
Logged
First you take my sanity, and now my hat? WHERE DOES IT END?!?!

Alex C

  • comeback tour!
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5,915
Re: Atheist Penelope
« Reply #386 on: 27 Aug 2009, 19:58 »

I'm pretty sure God could get you a day pass.  :roll:
Logged
the ship has Dr. Pepper but not Mr. Pibb; it's an absolute goddamned travesty

cerement

  • Plantmonster
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 31
    • cerement @ friendfeed
Re: Atheist Penelope
« Reply #387 on: 27 Aug 2009, 20:24 »

And who else but atheists will save your pets and provide peace of mind after you get taken up in the Rapture?
Logged

SigPig

  • Plantmonster
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 39
  • What?!?
Re: Atheist Penelope
« Reply #388 on: 27 Aug 2009, 21:48 »

Ok my knowledge of religious stuff is well...lacking what is the Rapture? :oops:
Logged

JD

  • coprophage
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7,803
  • The Phallussar
Re: Atheist Penelope
« Reply #389 on: 27 Aug 2009, 23:56 »

The return of Jayzus Cuhrist
Logged
Quote from: Jimmy the Squid
Hey JD, I really like your penis, man.

Mein Tumblr

Delirium

  • FIGHT YOU
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 396
  • WE CLEANSE OUR DESTINY
Re: Atheist Penelope
« Reply #390 on: 28 Aug 2009, 00:11 »

Well, not exactly, most of those who believe in the Rapture believe it will be seperate from his actual Second Coming, after the Tribulation. The Premillennial Dispensationists, at least, believe that first Jesus will come to sweep up the Real True Christians to Heaven, then seven years of God pouring out his wrath on the earth while the Antichrist rules it, the Jesus comes back for good, dumps all the non-RTC souls into hell, then rules the earth forever and ever from a giant golden Borg Cube. That's all you really need to know about it, there's no sense in wasting further time on it, and it'll never make sense to you anyways.
Logged

Is it cold in here?

  • Administrator
  • Awakened
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 25,163
  • He/him/his pronouns
Re: Atheist Penelope
« Reply #391 on: 28 Aug 2009, 00:59 »

Adult conversions, hmm -- will Pennelope convert back, like C.S. Lewis did?
Logged
Thank you, Dr. Karikó.

Delirium

  • FIGHT YOU
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 396
  • WE CLEANSE OUR DESTINY
Re: Atheist Penelope
« Reply #392 on: 28 Aug 2009, 13:42 »

I should only hope not. C.S. Lewis only converted back because he failed logic forever.
Logged

KeepACoolin

  • Furry furrier
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 163
Re: Atheist Penelope
« Reply #393 on: 29 Aug 2009, 12:26 »

A.)  I do not believe in a pre-tribulation rapture.  There is no evidence in scripture for it, anywhere. 

B.)  I don't see how you can claim that C.S. Lewis can "fail logic forever" when it is clear that atheism itself requires a leap past logic: the only position that can be 100% based on logic is agnosticism, as it is impossible to ever disprove the existence of God (how exactly would you go about proving that there can be no invisible, incorporeal being whose existence is independent of the material universe?) and probably just as impossible to ever prove that He does exist.  Essentially, the only completely rational position to hold is agnosticism, with gradations in it- that is, you might be an agnostic who is virtually sure that there is a God, or an agnostic who is virtually sure that there isn't.  Either of the absolute positions, theism or atheism, requires a step beyond logic.  But I think that anything worth doing does.  Don't get me wrong, I think atheism is, in itself, a better position to hold than agnosticism.  But that is not because I believe it to be more rational.

C.)  I like italics.  You may have noticed.
Logged
Keep a coolin' baby.

cerement

  • Plantmonster
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 31
    • cerement @ friendfeed
Re: Atheist Penelope
« Reply #394 on: 29 Aug 2009, 12:43 »

... as it is impossible to ever disprove the existence of God (how exactly would you go about proving that there can be no invisible, incorporeal being whose existence is independent of the material universe?) and probably just as impossible to ever prove that He does exist ...

Unless we find a Babel fish ...

Quote from: Douglas Adams
'Oh dear,' says God, 'I hadn't thought of that,' and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.

Just stay away from zebra crossings ...


Logged

KeepACoolin

  • Furry furrier
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 163
Re: Atheist Penelope
« Reply #395 on: 29 Aug 2009, 15:31 »

... as it is impossible to ever disprove the existence of God (how exactly would you go about proving that there can be no invisible, incorporeal being whose existence is independent of the material universe?) and probably just as impossible to ever prove that He does exist ...

Unless we find a Babel fish ...

Quote from: Douglas Adams
'Oh dear,' says God, 'I hadn't thought of that,' and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.

Just stay away from zebra crossings ...




Huge win.  http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PuffOfLogic, if you haven't seen it already.
Logged
Keep a coolin' baby.

gingernotninger

  • Notorious N.U.R.R.
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4
Re: Atheist Penelope
« Reply #396 on: 31 Aug 2009, 15:55 »

The concept of god/s at the least, is faulty. i'mnot exactly an athiest but i do realise that god is real but only in the context of the human mind
Logged

Delirium

  • FIGHT YOU
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 396
  • WE CLEANSE OUR DESTINY
Re: Atheist Penelope
« Reply #397 on: 31 Aug 2009, 16:24 »

I don't see how you can claim that C.S. Lewis can "fail logic forever"
He formulated the "Liar, Lord, or Lunatic" trilemma. Therefore, he fails logic forever.
Logged

chronoplasm

  • Plantmonster
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 25
Re: Atheist Penelope
« Reply #398 on: 31 Aug 2009, 16:37 »

B.)  I don't see how you can claim that C.S. Lewis can "fail logic forever" when it is clear that atheism itself requires a leap past logic: the only position that can be 100% based on logic is agnosticism, as it is impossible to ever disprove the existence of God (how exactly would you go about proving that there can be no invisible, incorporeal being whose existence is independent of the material universe?) and probably just as impossible to ever prove that He does exist.  Essentially, the only completely rational position to hold is agnosticism, with gradations in it- that is, you might be an agnostic who is virtually sure that there is a God, or an agnostic who is virtually sure that there isn't.  Either of the absolute positions, theism or atheism, requires a step beyond logic.  But I think that anything worth doing does.  Don't get me wrong, I think atheism is, in itself, a better position to hold than agnosticism.  But that is not because I believe it to be more rational.

An atheist is someone who doesn't believe in the existence of god, not one who claims that there are no gods.
I think you will find that most atheists don't so much assert evidence against gods, but assert that there is so little evidence in favor of gods that the possibility isn't worthy of consideration.

Logged

KeepACoolin

  • Furry furrier
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 163
Re: Atheist Penelope
« Reply #399 on: 31 Aug 2009, 17:23 »

The concept of god/s at the least, is faulty. i'mnot exactly an athiest but i do realise that god is real but only in the context of the human mind
Fallacy.  You presuppose that there can be no such being as God.  That is the only scenario in which it can be said that God can be "real in the mind" but not elsewhere. 
Logged
Keep a coolin' baby.
Pages: 1 ... 6 7 [8] 9   Go Up