Topic: Just Watchmen. Just the Comic. (Read 25360 times)

Surgoshan · « **on:** 20 Jan 2009, 22:40 »

Shut up about the movie, shut up if you want to go on about newer/older/better/worse stuff.

So. I think it's awesome. The first time I read through it *spoilers*I thought the wandering prophet of doom was Rorschach, but the different outfit convinced me I was wrong. I kicked myself when I found out I was right. *spoiler*

De_El · « **Reply #1 on:** 20 Jan 2009, 23:06 »

I think one of the things that make Watchmen great, like a few of Alan Moore's other comics, is the way the world is established. The reader is able to fill in a lot on one's own because the universe is just similar enough to the one we live in, and yet all sorts of things are different and information is delivered in a variety of ways. You don't just get a text exposition that lays it out, and the setting and other important events in the comic's world don't go totally unremarked upon, you have characters dropping references, cues from signs, the condition of buildings and architecture, the clothes people wear; it's exhaustively pieced together to vividly evoke the 1980s and yet that's not quite it. It sets up the events in the comic as it they could take place in our world, if only things had turned out slightly differently.

In general, the attention to detail in art and writing are remarkable.

SirJuggles · « **Reply #2 on:** 20 Jan 2009, 23:07 »

Oh man I just bought and read it over the past holidays. With all the hype I figured the original had to be an interesting read. And it was indeed. It certainly raises a lot of good questions. Personally, I must admit that I agree with Ozymandias (the character, not the poster. Oh man that could get confusing if they come in here...). What he did maybe be considered horrible, but it also saved the world, and someone had to do it and bear the weight.

Apologies if this has already been discussed to death elsewhere.

Dimmukane · « **Reply #3 on:** 21 Jan 2009, 06:31 »

One of my friends was apparently involved in a fistfight in his dorm over who the villain was.

Scandanavian War Machine · « **Reply #4 on:** 21 Jan 2009, 10:28 »

awesome

Professor Snuggles · « **Reply #5 on:** 21 Jan 2009, 12:18 »

I lent my copy of this to someone like 6 years ago and never got it back. Same with DKR. I'm not okay with it.

KvP · « **Reply #6 on:** 21 Jan 2009, 21:48 »

Yeah, it's pretty good.

phooey · « **Reply #7 on:** 21 Jan 2009, 22:03 »

Gave my copy to a twitchy girl with an afro and I don't know if I'll get it back.

BlackBooks · « **Reply #8 on:** 22 Jan 2009, 23:08 »

Re-reading my copy now; I'm up to the point where Nite Owl and Silk Spectre are busting Rorshach out of prison. Dude, this book is awesome.

Question: What is your take on "The Black Freighter?" I think it's a great story in and of itself, but it's just so damn distracting from the plot of Watchmen. The whole thing lifts right out, and I think the story loses nothing. What do you all think?

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? ("Who watches the watchmen?")
--Juvenal

SirJuggles · « **Reply #9 on:** 22 Jan 2009, 23:19 »

A fair point. I'm sure my high school literature teachers would make some argument about it symbolically tying into the character's inner journeys. Oh wait, they couldn't be convinced to care about a comic book. I dunno, personally I just loved some of the tie-ins with the words of one narrative matching the illustration for another.

Surgoshan · « **Reply #10 on:** 23 Jan 2009, 03:47 »

The story of the black freighter provides a commentary and/or internal monologue for the main story. A man alone, striving toward damnation, thinking it's salvation; that's Veidt's journey.

sandysmilinstrange · « **Reply #11 on:** 23 Jan 2009, 06:52 »

I was enjoying the Black Freighter at first, but as the story picked up steam it became an annoying distraction for me, so all commentary was lost on me.

I can clearly remember the first time I read this. When I got to Veidt's line "Do it? Dan, I'm not a Republic serial villain. Do you seriously think I'd explain my master-stroke if there remained the slightest chance of you affecting its outcome? I did it thirty-five minutes ago" I broke out in goosebumps.

The part where the newspaper vendor goes and tries to shield that kid always made me get misty-eyed.

It's amazing how your loyalties shift in different times in your life. There have been times when I think that Rorshach is the hero, right is always right and wrong is always wrong. Then a few years later I'll go back and read and think Veidt is right and the ends eventually justify the means.

And every time I read it I feel sorrier and sorrier for Dr. Manhattan.

Scandanavian War Machine · « **Reply #12 on:** 23 Jan 2009, 10:35 »

Quote from: sandysmilinstrange on 23 Jan 2009, 06:52

When I got to Veidt's line "Do it? Dan, I'm not a Republic serial villain. Do you seriously think I'd explain my master-stroke if there remained the slightest chance of you affecting its outcome? I did it thirty-five minutes ago" I broke out in goosebumps.

same here. fucking brilliant.

RE: The Black Freighter.
i'm not sure how i feel about that whole thing. at times, it was kind of annoying and made it hard to follow the other dialogue that was happening at the same time; but on the other hand it did seem to be appropriate, content-wise, to the main story. my only real complaint about it was that it was a tad too long, and way too predictable. it wasn't exciting to read because i always knew what was going to happen.

SirJuggles · « **Reply #13 on:** 23 Jan 2009, 12:56 »

Well they make a point of telling you how it ends in that one chapter-bookend that's an excerpt from a piece on comics. So it's not to meant to be mysterious. As soon as I read Surgoshan's comment I realized he's right.

RedLion · « **Reply #14 on:** 23 Jan 2009, 13:28 »

The most effective (and affecting) thing about Watchmen is that its characters are all highly damaged and therefore readers are able to relate to them. It's what makes it different from regular comic books and even other graphic novels of similar qualities--their heroes are beyond human. Even heroes without powers like Batman are beyond the realm of what is generally humanly physically possible. In Watchmen, on the other hand, only Jon is actually a superhero. And even he is somewhat relatable to humanity.

Scandanavian War Machine · « **Reply #15 on:** 23 Jan 2009, 13:31 »

i actually found myself relating more to Jon than anyone else.

Uber Ritter · « **Reply #16 on:** 25 Jan 2009, 18:35 »

My favorite part is the inter-relation of morality and violence, or if you will moral power and physical power. It's an obvious commentary on superheroes, but it's much bigger than that. What makes Rorsach compelling as well as repellent is his combination of moral force--the sheer courage and certainty of his convictions--with his penchant for violence and his lack of any normal fear. He will impose his moral order in the world, through certitude and murder, and both are a form of violence and an assertion of control. Of course what makes hims so rabid is that he doesn't believe that the world has a moral order beyond his will--morality has been stripped of it's pretensions to be natural, or a way to get along, and simply becomes an assertion of power over the uncaring universe. But of course this sort of naked morality leaves Rorsach a broken human being.

Naira · « **Reply #17 on:** 09 Feb 2009, 19:44 »

I'm reading the Watchmen now for the first time. I have to say, that I am most intrigued by the character of Dr. Manhattan.

It seems to me that how Dr. Manhattan is treated is much truer to the human condition than how DC and Marvel deal with superheroes.

If that sentence made no sense, let me explain...Superman is LOVED by the people of Metropolis (for the most part), he has a steady girlfriend, friends, and he is a (generally) well adjusted individual. It makes for great fantasy, but I honestly think that the human condition is much less idealistic than that.

*spoilers*
No one is quite comfortable around Dr. Manhattan. He cannot relate to humanity since the accident. The government uses him as an ace-in-the-hole for any international problem and they are drunk due to the proximity of such power.
*spoilers*

I honestly don't think that Superman or any other superhero would be as well adjusted as they are portrayed. Sure, many other comics have covered darker, more human issues in their comics. Drugs, sex, mental problems, retirement, death, etc. But, always...superheroes are a part of the normal fabric of society. They're a dime a dozen.

That also leads me to another point that I liked (so far), that the costumed heroes don't have many costumed villains to fight. It seems obvious...but I never thought about it before. Why the hell would someone dress up and rob banks, when it's so much easier to pull a ponzi scheme like Bernard Madoff?

Blyss · « **Reply #18 on:** 10 Feb 2009, 10:01 »

Just finished reading it...

Sooo fucking pissed at what happened to Rorshach - though somewhat vindicated by the ending.

I didn't mind the Black Freighter story, mixed in well with my reading of it.

Damned good story either way.

Tom · « **Reply #19 on:** 10 Feb 2009, 12:25 »

The Black Freighter is like the chorus, covering the moral plight of the characters much like "The Mousetrap" in Hamlet.

The_Bartender · « **Reply #20 on:** 10 Feb 2009, 16:16 »

I first read Watchmen in serial form not long after the last issue came out. It's still one of my favorites, along with Miller's Dark Knight Returns and the whole run of Neil Gaiman on Sandman.

There's a parallel here with QC and some other similar web comics. Watchmen is set in a world ALMOST, but not quite, like our own. QC obviously fits that description. It's been done before and will be done again, because as noted above, it lets the reader understand the background story with out having to waste time and space laying it all out.

Alan Moore's other works, especially his run on Swamp Thing, are worth a look. Moore himself is worth learning a little about. He has been open about his utter disdain for movie adaptations of his works, and has also been voal about his bitterness towards the comic publishers, DC primarily. I
m torn between respecting his artistic integrity and disliking him for biting the hand that feeds him.

Any Hellblazer readers here?

TheDozarian · « **Reply #21 on:** 11 Feb 2009, 06:10 »

I've been trying to determine whether or not I agree with the Black Freighter being the inner monologue for Veidt. I'm starting think that it is and it isn't. I think it maybe the inner monologue for the Watchmen as a group as opposed to one single member. The story snakes in and out of different characters arcs and the reason I think its not just Veidt is the ending.

Rorschach, in the end, is who I think the character finally equates to. His giving up after the atrocity that has been laid upon New York leaves him no choice but to seek refuge the only way he knows he can find solace and reprieve, by dieing. Veidt, although I'm certain was distressed didn't give up. He exalted in his deed and the fact that he was right. He didn't give up at all.

By the same token, I found the thread resulting in the character strapping the dead bodies to make the raft to be a direct precursor to the abhorrent task Veidt laid out before himself in deciding to destroy half of New York in order to save the rest of the world. To the character in the Black Freighter, his family was his world and he performed monstrous deeds in order to save them.

So I don't think that the Black Freighter defines or is defined by any one character, but that it is an amalgamation of all or at least some of the characters of the Watchmen.

At first, I didn't care for those interruptions but as they continued, I found myself re-reading the beginning to make sure I had a firm grasp on it later. But anyway you slice it, the comic in it's entirety is a great release that even now stands the test of time.

Blyss · « **Reply #22 on:** 11 Feb 2009, 15:26 »

I'm aware the the plan works in the story - but does anyone here think about whether or not the idea that a big enough catastrophe would unite the world?

I tend to doubt it, but that's just me.

Anybody else got ideas about it?

Scandanavian War Machine · « **Reply #23 on:** 11 Feb 2009, 15:31 »

depends on the catastrophe, i guess.

SirJuggles · « **Reply #24 on:** 11 Feb 2009, 15:32 »

I don't remember if it was another thread on here, or an interview with Alan Moore I was watching, but there was some discussion about how that whole premise doesn't hold up so well in the wake of 9/11. Sure, there are differences between the tragedies. But we saw how quickly the unity gained from a gigantic tragedy fades. Perhaps something of a more alien nature would have a more unifying effect, but sooner or later human nature gets riled up and hauls off and smacks someone, reason or no.

Scandanavian War Machine · « **Reply #25 on:** 11 Feb 2009, 15:56 »

exactly.

the catastrophe couldn't be anything local or delibrately directed at anyone or anywhere. it would have to be either A) completely alien in nature, or B) a massive natural distaster with global implications.

MusicScribbles · « **Reply #26 on:** 11 Feb 2009, 16:03 »

Quote from: The_Bartender on 10 Feb 2009, 16:16

Any Hellblazer readers here?

Yes, I love the Hellblazer series and Mr. Reeves portrayal/Hollywood's shredding of the source material can go to hell (C wut I did thar?).

knives · « **Reply #27 on:** 13 Feb 2009, 14:42 »

I think Veidt's doubts at the end is Moore's winking way of saying it could still go to hell. My favorite part, by the way, is when the newstand guy reveals his name to the kid. That's such a morbidly ensuring moment that I always tear up to.

edwinalink · « **Reply #28 on:** 15 Feb 2009, 04:07 »

I'm so stuck on the book I'm considering getting a tattoo of jons hydrogen atom symbol... though not on my forehead.

and on the jon VS superman idea.

i think what makes supe's so unrelateable is he payed no price for it. yeah his parents and species did. his planet did

but he's just like a brangelina baby. because of "chance" he gets all this awesomeness for free. without paying for it.

where as jon is always paying for it. he gets godlike power... but continually deals with losing his humanity.

you dont get something for nothing. and i love that moore makes that point brutally and repeatedly in the book!

Dunnoe · « **Reply #29 on:** 15 Feb 2009, 14:47 »

watchmen and the sandman volumes are neck and neck for best graphic novels ive ever read

The_Bartender · « **Reply #30 on:** 15 Feb 2009, 18:34 »

Sujperman and Watchmen are from totally different time periods, so the difference in character development is understandable. I agree with the point, but you also have to consider the larger picture. The more recent versions of Superman, especially since the "reboot" in 1986, show his more "human" side and also make him slightly less powerful. Superman as written in the '60s and '70s probably could have stopped Doomsday as written in a few minutes. Superman of the '90s went toe to toe in a 12 rounds slugfest and won but died anyway.

Ahh, Sandman. The comic book that really got me back into comics, and also showed the American media (well, to some extent) that comics weren't just for kids. Something the rest of the world was already aware of. Neil Gaiman's ability to create an entire mythology from the ground up that was consistant and believable still astounds me to this day. The manner in which he then interwove normal life, ancient gods, the world of fairy & magic and made it all come to a conclusion in a plot line 2000+ years long is nearly indescribable. The fact that it works best as acomic was even better. The art never overshadowed the story, but it told you what was happening, and I love that they worked "easter eggs" into almost every book.

Another DC/Vertigo story that I thoroughly recommend is Preacher. Preacher, however, is not for the squeamish, staunchly religous or conservative types. It's a quest for God, but in no way similar to what that usually means.

Dazed · « **Reply #31 on:** 15 Feb 2009, 18:43 »

Quote

Just Watchmen

TheViscount · « **Reply #32 on:** 15 Feb 2009, 23:17 »

Quote from: edwinalink on 15 Feb 2009, 04:07

I'm so stuck on the book I'm considering getting a tattoo of jons hydrogen atom symbol... though not on my forehead.

and on the jon VS superman idea.

i think what makes supe's so unrelateable is he payed no price for it. yeah his parents and species did. his planet did

but he's just like a brangelina baby. because of "chance" he gets all this awesomeness for free. without paying for it.

where as jon is always paying for it. he gets godlike power... but continually deals with losing his humanity.

you dont get something for nothing. and i love that moore makes that point brutally and repeatedly in the book!

Jon is complicated. He might A) Listen to the government and kill Superman if ever seen as a threat to America. B) Kill superman if he threatens his existance C) Kill superman if he threatens the existance of the chick he`s banging at the time, complying at least that he still cares about her and the existance of the human race at that exact time D) Move to another planet and make clones of superman, living in his wildest blue-man fantasy.

Oh.. Blue man group and Jon? I sense a merging..

Anyhow, Watchmen is the best graphic novel I`ve ever read. I had to read it three more times before I was completely satisfied, that`s a good thing. Did anyone else just stare at the picture of [spoilers inc] Rorschach crying and screaming `DO IT!` asking Jon to kill him? I did, for a while. And I ust stared at the cover after I finished it for a while as well.

Dunnoe · « **Reply #33 on:** 16 Feb 2009, 13:32 »

Quote from: TheViscount

Oh.. Blue man group and Blue Man

Fixed.

I feel that Jon can be explain with one of his quotes.

Quote

I'm just a puppet who can see the strings.

He doesn't move a finger to change his destiny (winks at the bartender) because he already knows what's going to happen and believes that he is powerless to stop it. I love the extras from the various media sources of the time, especially The New Frontiersman (sp?). Awesome seeing how we absorb so many angles of the same conflict. I love it.

el Lenador · « **Reply #34 on:** 16 Feb 2009, 23:51 »

i loved the comic, but in my opinion i think it's way over hyped, and alan moore is too pretentious. he has right to be a little pretentious, because he is an amazing writer, but whenever i read something about him i just end up getting pissed.

also, maybe i didn't read into it enough, but it's also my opinion that it gets over analyzed. but i might not have paid enough attention to notice that it needs to be.

PapaFrita · « **Reply #35 on:** 17 Feb 2009, 16:54 »

I devoured this book in about two days, and was blown away. One thing was really intrigued about was that Veidt acted on predictions alone. War never broke out during the Watchmen, it just came closer and closer. Would a world war have actually occurred in that world, or would the USSR have crumbled on its own, like in ours? Veidt's actions may have been justified, but probably not necessary.

Quote from: Animal Ghosts on 21 Jan 2009, 12:18

I lent my copy of this to someone like 6 years ago and never got it back. Same with DKR. I'm not okay with it.

I lost the Golden Compass this way.

Blyss · « **Reply #36 on:** 18 Feb 2009, 07:50 »

I have to reread this now. I am STILL so pissed at what happened to Rorschach. Fucking Grrrrrrrrr....

Uber Ritter · « **Reply #37 on:** 22 Feb 2009, 09:55 »

Quote from: PapaFrita on 17 Feb 2009, 16:54

I devoured this book in about two days, and was blown away. One thing was really intrigued about was that Veidt acted on predictions alone. War never broke out during the Watchmen, it just came closer and closer. Would a world war have actually occurred in that world, or would the USSR have crumbled on its own, like in ours? Veidt's actions may have been justified, but probably not necessary.

The Soviet Union didn't break up as part of an inevitable failure in the system, it broke up because it's leaders forgot that for an authoritarian state, reform almost always leads to complete dissolution (ask the Romanovs). If Gorbachev hadn't opened the chinks in the USSR's cultural and political armour, it may well still be around.

Of course, this implies that freedom doesn't inevitably triumph over tyranny, that history isn't one long march of progress etc., and these are not happy thoughts for most Americans.

In any event, it is unlikely that any sort of glasnost would have come about in the super-intensified Cold War brought about by the fact that the US possessed a first strike weapon in the form of Dr. Manhattan.

Ozymandias · « **Reply #38 on:** 22 Feb 2009, 11:18 »

Oh, man.

Someone should write a side story to Watchmen, from the Soviet perspective.

That would be an excellent book.

Anyway, I went to Borders today and the place is flooded with Watchmen. There was like, 40 copies on tables as soon as you walk in. It made me reminisce about when I first bought it. I had to go to the hole-in-a-wall comic book store in a strip mall. It was the very last copy, the display copy. I was so happy.

Since then I've bought it two more times (due to loaning it out and never getting it back).

I need to buy Absolute Watchmen sometime.

Dyly · « **Reply #39 on:** 22 Feb 2009, 13:24 »

Most everything that Alan Moore does is gold. I read one of the prints too League Of Extraordinary Gentlemen. I own V For Vendetta. I got Watchmen but I tried too stay up all night reading it so at half way though I just kinda rushed though it. I should re-read it!

Surgoshan · « **Reply #40 on:** 22 Feb 2009, 17:08 »

I just realized something. In volume five, when

(click to show/hide)

calls in the tip to the cops that Rorschach will be at Jacobi's, the cop that answers the phone has trouble understanding him and says, "Raw shark?" a few times. It's in that volume that sharks attack the mariner's raft in The Black Freighter and he kills one, though not until the next that the mariner actually eat's the dead shark's raw flesh.

In other words; Rorschach isn't someone to be admired, he's barely human. He's a killing machine, devoid of emotion, reason, or sentiment. His actions are driven by a hunger, and his death is as pointless as the shark... and it serves only to feed Veidt's mad plan.

TheViscount · « **Reply #41 on:** 22 Feb 2009, 17:12 »

Quote from: Surgoshan on 22 Feb 2009, 17:08

I just realized something. In volume five, when
(click to show/hide)
Veidt
calls in the tip to the cops that Rorschach will be at Jacobi's, the cop that answers the phone has trouble understanding him and says, "Raw shark?" a few times. It's in that volume that sharks attack the mariner's raft in The Black Freighter and he kills one, though not until the next that the mariner actually eat's the dead shark's raw flesh.

In other words; Rorschach isn't someone to be admired, he's barely human. He's a killing machine, devoid of emotion, reason, or sentiment. His actions are driven by a hunger, and his death is as pointless as the shark... and it serves only to feed Veidt's mad plan.

I didn't see the Black Freighter as that kind of tool for the comic, I always saw it as a foreshadower, or a parallel. He was eating Raw shark. Rorschach is caught.

Surgoshan · « **Reply #42 on:** 22 Feb 2009, 20:53 »

It's Alan Moore, dude. He's the epitome of pretentious bastard. You can't overthink it.

TheViscount · « **Reply #43 on:** 22 Feb 2009, 23:00 »

I didn't though... To be completely honest, when I read the Black Freighter boxes, I was just kind of half-paying attention and trying to get to the next strip. After my second time reading it, I kind of saw the parallel and what seemed like foreshadowing. Now on the other hand, comparing Rorschach's mentality to that of a shark's is kind of overthinking it.

Rez · « **Reply #44 on:** 24 Feb 2009, 18:24 »

I had a class yesterday about Malory's Morte D'Arthur and as I decided to re-read the Watchmen instead of preparing for the discussion I ended up comparing Merlin to Dr Manhattan (the whole world being populated by supposed "heroes", yet only one character is capable of breaking the "rules" of that world). Managed to escape intact, and the professor didn't shoot me down, which was nice. Thanks, Alan Moore!

Tom · « **Reply #45 on:** 24 Feb 2009, 22:54 »

Quote from: TheViscount on 22 Feb 2009, 23:00

I didn't though... To be completely honest, when I read the Black Freighter boxes, I was just kind of half-paying attention and trying to get to the next strip. After my second time reading it, I kind of saw the parallel and what seemed like foreshadowing. Now on the other hand, comparing Rorschach's mentality to that of a shark's is kind of overthinking it.

Yeah, I know for me that was one of the major differences of reading it as an eleven year old and later as a sixteen year old.

Blyss · « **Reply #46 on:** 25 Feb 2009, 08:41 »

Alright - this is bugging the shit out me.

Why the fuck did Rorschach have to die? I don't buy the storyline reason, I guess that's just a personal problem on my part, but man that just fucking pisses me off every time I read it.

A sign of good writing that it evokes a strong emotional response for sure - but just grrrr....

**decides to just let it go...

Surgoshan · « **Reply #47 on:** 25 Feb 2009, 13:49 »

Rorschach is an uncompromising character. He sees the world in terms of black and white. Dan, Laurie, and Ostermann all understand that the event has already occurred, and to expose Veidt's plan would just let the world go on as it had been, toward disaster. Rorschach understands that, but doesn't care. Veidt has done wrong and must be punished.

Dazed · « **Reply #48 on:** 25 Feb 2009, 14:04 »

Rorschach is utterly uncompromising. He would rather die than compromise his values, so that's what happens.

Quote

Sometimes, perhaps, one must change or die. And, in the end, there were, perhaps, limits to how much he could let himself change.

Gaiman, not Moore, but it comes to mind when I think of Rorschach, and it seems applicable.

knives · « **Reply #49 on:** 25 Feb 2009, 15:09 »

Why would you want him to live anyway? Sure he was a fun character, but he was insane, going to ruin the possibility of peace, and couldn't let himself change. Can't think of a reason why he would need to live. Not to say your reasoning can't be c\valid, as long as goes beyond 'He's so cool man, like cool!!!! (quote provided by Zack Snyder)

THESE FORUMS NOW CLOSED (read only)

Author Topic: Just Watchmen. Just the Comic. (Read 25360 times)

BlackBooks

The_Bartender

The_Bartender

TheViscount

el Lenador

PapaFrita

Dyly

TheViscount

TheViscount

Rez