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Author Topic: Mass Effect 2  (Read 366664 times)

Johnny C

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Re: Mass Effect 2
« Reply #1100 on: 13 Mar 2010, 00:11 »

i have to concede that tali's emotional attachment to shepard is actually justified fairly well
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Storm Rider

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Re: Mass Effect 2
« Reply #1101 on: 13 Mar 2010, 11:08 »

I really like Tali as a character but her fanbase creeps me the fuck out.
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KvP

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Re: Mass Effect 2
« Reply #1102 on: 13 Mar 2010, 15:06 »

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Re: Mass Effect 2
« Reply #1103 on: 13 Mar 2010, 15:36 »

ugh
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Alex C

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Re: Mass Effect 2
« Reply #1104 on: 13 Mar 2010, 16:40 »

I'd rather like to slap around the "It's not an RPG" people. Mass Effect 2 is totally a role playing game. It's not an inventory management simulator, but I'm pretty okay with that.
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Re: Mass Effect 2
« Reply #1105 on: 14 Mar 2010, 07:44 »

If listening to the forum means banishing the mining simulator to the deepest pits of hell for whence it spawned, I think we can get on board with that.  On the other hand, experience has shown us that it will be replaced by an even more annoying "minigame" in ME3, possibly involving a Mavis Beacon typing tutor interlude every time you want to recover some McGuffinite.
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Re: Mass Effect 2
« Reply #1106 on: 14 Mar 2010, 10:21 »

I would totally consider playing a ME game if it had some sweet Mavis Beacon action
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Storm Rider

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Re: Mass Effect 2
« Reply #1107 on: 14 Mar 2010, 11:10 »

Oh hey guess what Bioware is listening to its forums again.

Great.

OK, really? I know we like to mock the Bioboards at every opportunity, but the gameplay designer saying 'we're going to keep listening to fan input' is not a groan-worthy statement. It's what got us all of the substantial improvements between Mass Effect 1 and 2. I think we can give them the benefit of the doubt in this case, it's not like she specifically said "and you'll get to see Tali's face when you build her the house she wants because she's your special little alien waifu".
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KvP

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Re: Mass Effect 2
« Reply #1108 on: 14 Mar 2010, 14:57 »

It's Bioware. You know that's gonna happen.
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Re: Mass Effect 2
« Reply #1109 on: 14 Mar 2010, 16:27 »

i have to concede that tali's emotional attachment to shepard is actually justified fairly well
too true, hell she even explains it point blank in Mass Effect 2
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Ozymandias

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Re: Mass Effect 2
« Reply #1110 on: 14 Mar 2010, 17:57 »

Nah I'm with Bryan.

Listening to complaints about the game is not a bad thing step off.
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JD

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Re: Mass Effect 2
« Reply #1111 on: 14 Mar 2010, 18:03 »

I'm not willing to swap spit with Tali but I still wanna see her face.
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Johnny C

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Re: Mass Effect 2
« Reply #1112 on: 14 Mar 2010, 20:04 »

It's Bioware. You know that's gonna happen.

DO WE REALLY KNOW IT JOHN, DO WE KNOW IT FOR A FACT
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KvP

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Re: Mass Effect 2
« Reply #1113 on: 14 Mar 2010, 20:27 »

In all seriousness there was really very little about ME2 that needed improvement. Fair enough that they want to undertake the impossible task of coming up with a resource collection system that people don't hate, but the people who keep talking about how ME2 isn't "a real RPG" are functional retards, without fail. ME2 is a fine RPG, it has choice and consequence on par or better with the mean. What these people mean is that there isn't constant feedback from gameplay in the form of per-kill experience and l007. People like these things because they're familiar, not because they add anything to the game. ME2's lack of an inventory system was actually identical to ME1's inventory system, it just cut out all of the bloat. Instead of accumulating a thousand weapons and mods and selling off all but the best, ME2 just gave you the best. ME2 was better without those things. Any and all useful improvements can be gleaned from reviews or other sources that aren't as ridiculous as a dedicated gaming forum. I honestly do not believe that aggregating the opinions of the Bioboards and putting them towards game design can do ME3 any favors.

And yeah, romances are fucking stupid, and they're only going to become a greater part of the gameplay in future Bioware games.
« Last Edit: 14 Mar 2010, 20:33 by KvP »
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Re: Mass Effect 2
« Reply #1114 on: 14 Mar 2010, 21:36 »

hey now the romantic exchanges are often hilariously awesome.
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Re: Mass Effect 2
« Reply #1115 on: 14 Mar 2010, 22:04 »

Yeah I ain't getting my shit all twisted just because oh shit not fairly well written romance side-dialog better throw out the game.
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Alex C

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Re: Mass Effect 2
« Reply #1116 on: 14 Mar 2010, 22:39 »

I like how you're giving him shit about criticizing what is one of the weakest elements in the game after he's already acknowledged that ME2 needs very little improvement.
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Storm Rider

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Re: Mass Effect 2
« Reply #1117 on: 14 Mar 2010, 22:45 »

I think there's a happy medium to be found between the RPG systems of ME1 and ME2. If they had a slightly wider variety of skills per class or a greater number of weapons that weren't necessarily vertical upgrades, that would add to the game without the player having to spend 10 minutes converting a bunch of junk drops to omni-gel like you did in the first game. I fully agree that people who are saying that ME2 isn't an RPG because it doesn't have loot drops or per-kill XP are clinging to outdated conceptions of what an RPG is, but that doesn't mean that it couldn't be more fully-featured in ME3 while still keeping the core things that ME2 did well intact. And when she says 'fan feedback', I'm sure she doesn't mean the Bioboards exclusively. Bioware's smart enough to know that fan communities exist beyond their own website, they wouldn't have become the largest RPG developer in the West otherwise.

Basically, if the slide from that Joystiq article represents the overarching goals of ME3's design then I don't see why that's anything but encouraging. The four things she singles out are all features that I would welcome (provided that they're implemented properly, but I think that goes without saying), and stuff like romances are obviously beyond her purview. And while I think that convincing romances are definitely the weakest element of Bioware's games, they're pretty easy to ignore. Who knows, maybe they'll get better at that too.
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Storm Rider

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Re: Mass Effect 2
« Reply #1118 on: 14 Mar 2010, 22:46 »

Also, if listening to fan feedback means I can toggle off the goddamn helmets of the unique armor sets in ME3, then I'll put up with a dozen creepy alien romances.
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Johnny C

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Re: Mass Effect 2
« Reply #1119 on: 15 Mar 2010, 01:47 »

the romances in me2 were also more convincing than the romances in the first game, on account of personalities
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Johnny C

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Re: Mass Effect 2
« Reply #1120 on: 15 Mar 2010, 01:48 »

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Alex C

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Re: Mass Effect 2
« Reply #1121 on: 15 Mar 2010, 01:59 »

I couldn't really imagine getting into the romances from the first game. Liara was kinda boring and Ashley is basically the exact blueprint of the kinda person I'd avoid dating even if I do think some of the Ashley-hate out there is overblown.
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Nodaisho

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Re: Mass Effect 2
« Reply #1122 on: 15 Mar 2010, 03:15 »

I'm not willing to swap spit with Tali but I still wanna see her face.
I want it to be shown, and to be absolutely hideous.
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Re: Mass Effect 2
« Reply #1123 on: 15 Mar 2010, 03:28 »

A Legion/Tali rom-com would be the best thing ever.
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KvP

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Re: Mass Effect 2
« Reply #1124 on: 15 Mar 2010, 04:50 »

the romances in me2 were also more convincing than the romances in the first game, on account of personalities
How so? I haven't gone through Tali's but the rest seem to be Bioware's usual first-the-therapy-then-the-coitus plotlines. Jack's childhood, Thane's dead wife, Miranda's self-esteem issues, etc. etc.
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Re: Mass Effect 2
« Reply #1125 on: 15 Mar 2010, 07:35 »

I'm not willing to swap spit with Tali but I still wanna see her face.
I want it to be shown, and to be absolutely hideous.
By the way
« Last Edit: 16 Mar 2010, 17:07 by Zombiedude »
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Re: Mass Effect 2
« Reply #1126 on: 15 Mar 2010, 09:51 »

that's actually really cute!
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JD

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Re: Mass Effect 2
« Reply #1127 on: 15 Mar 2010, 15:59 »

Alright Kasumi will be released on April 6th for 560 MS points on the Xbawks. No clue what that translates into dollars.
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Johnny C

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Re: Mass Effect 2
« Reply #1128 on: 15 Mar 2010, 16:03 »

How so? I haven't gone through Tali's but the rest seem to be Bioware's usual first-the-therapy-then-the-coitus plotlines. Jack's childhood, Thane's dead wife, Miranda's self-esteem issues, etc. etc.

except that you don't unlock any of them until after the loyalty mission, meaning that you have to go through actual character development first, and the character development in this game is largely very good. so like i said, it's personalities - as in, they have them, the game explores them, and then you choose if your shepard is attracted to one. besides that they're almost all well-written and i can think offhand of exactly one scene which felt clumsy.
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KvP

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Re: Mass Effect 2
« Reply #1129 on: 15 Mar 2010, 17:24 »

How so? I haven't gone through Tali's but the rest seem to be Bioware's usual first-the-therapy-then-the-coitus plotlines. Jack's childhood, Thane's dead wife, Miranda's self-esteem issues, etc. etc.

except that you don't unlock any of them until after the loyalty mission, meaning that you have to go through actual character development first
They've never not had character development in romances. There are a couple of apparently unavoidable issues with game romances, most of which have to do with time. You have to get two characters from having just met to being lovers in the space of a 15-30 hour game, with only a small portion of that time relegated to intra-party conversations and downtime, and you have to make it seem natural. You could go down the Witcher route and just toss out that whole idea, and have the PC be able to sleep with literally every named female character after 1 or 2 dialogues, or you could try and simulate an actual relationship, which is much harder.

The only RPG "romance plots" I found halfway good were Baldur's Gate 2's, for a few reasons. One was because the game was so incredibly long, probably around 80 hours total with the expansion, and the romance plots were designed to stretch out over roughly that time frame. As such it didn't really feel like the sex was actually the point of the plot - in fact the romances were pretty well tied into the critical plot of both the game. In both ME1 and ME2 the romances are tangential to the critical plot and seem to end with the consummation (though I'd be surprised if that would be repeated in ME3) and in Dragon Age only Morrigan's and (probably) Alistair's are. Another reason was the irregularity of the romance plot advancements, because you didn't initiate them, and the game was not rigidly set up in incremental stages like every game Bioware's made since. Having the romance advance incrementally at the end of every mission turns the romance into its own sort of mission.

Having missions you undertake with a character to advance a romance plot is probably the best way to do so, in all actuality. Bioware has gotten a lot better at that, and they're pretty much the only ones doing it. But it's hard to overstate how frustrated I am with the Therapy Love template that just keeps getting used (all romances in BG2, all romances in Jade Empire, Juhani and Carth in KOTOR, Liara in ME, Alistair to some extent in DA, etc.). Characters are woobified because it makes short-term romances a little more sensible, which is fair even if it is tiring, but several of the characters who are supposed to be strong, independent types end up chickified (every female love interest except Aerie, Ashley and Morrigan) When your love interests are solely dependent on the protagonist to heal their psychic wounds and make them whole again, it makes you really long for a character that has his / her shit together. Ashley and Kaidan were actually pretty okay in this regard. Most of the ME2 romances were not. It's a dilemma because game designers at Bioware and elsewhere are always wanting the player to feel accomplished, so it makes sense to put them in the role of "personality healer" so they can good about themselves. It just happens to make a lot of the romances one-note, more or less. Bioware's also flirted with rape as drama in their plotlines on more than one occasion, but that's an entirely different bag of worms.
« Last Edit: 15 Mar 2010, 17:28 by KvP »
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Johnny C

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Re: Mass Effect 2
« Reply #1130 on: 15 Mar 2010, 20:12 »

Quote
Dostoevsky seems to have liked his woobies:
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Johnny C

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Re: Mass Effect 2
« Reply #1131 on: 15 Mar 2010, 21:20 »

John you're smart enough to know what I'm getting at here, which is ultimately an admiration for Bioware's dedication to writing and craft that shine through in this game. Those tropes bother you for really broad reasons but don't really address what I'm talking about, which is that - regardless of tropes, which is an interesting avenue for talking about the politics of text but never have nearly as much bearing on the actual quality of a text as you seem to be placing on them - the game and its characters are well-written and well-developed. I take a lot of issue with your classification of several of the characters as "woobified" because that seems to be based more on a fan response to them than, well, their actual characters. I'm also mystified because you seem to be confusing what you want, which is, well, I don't know what but it's something to do with sex, with what the game accomplishes, which is that it rounds its characters out the way it wants them rounded out while delivering romances.

In terms of the Therapy Love thing, it applies to - who? The characters have motivations that the game establishes were formed independently of Shepard; as such, you don't so much push them to realize and fulfill them as you facilitate what they see as inevitable. Your choices, as a necessity of the gameplay Bioware developed, help shape the direction that fulfillment goes in, but it never feels particularly forced or unnatural, and that's again due to the strength of the writing.

I have a few complaints with Mass Effect 2's depiction of sex - the actual act itself, which is admittedly far less embarrassing than the sex in Dragon Age but still not quite mature in a small-m sense, and the occasional snippet of dialogue, such as Miranda asking Shepard if he'd like to admire her butt sometime - but by and large the model works, and it works on the strength of the writing, and it works regardless of those tropes. Mostly what distinguishes it from the first game is the writing, and I'm willing to give Bioware the benefit of the doubt for the third Mass Effect based exclusively on how much they improved between the first and second.
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Ozymandias

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Re: Mass Effect 2
« Reply #1132 on: 15 Mar 2010, 22:36 »

Can there be a new internet law stating that if you have to link to TVTropes to explain your point, you lost the argument?
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Re: Mass Effect 2
« Reply #1133 on: 15 Mar 2010, 23:24 »

Can there be a new internet law stating that if you have to link to TVTropes to explain your point, you lost the argument?

Second.
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Re: Mass Effect 2
« Reply #1134 on: 15 Mar 2010, 23:32 »

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Re: Mass Effect 2
« Reply #1135 on: 15 Mar 2010, 23:39 »

I interrupt your argument and submit to you thusly.

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Re: Mass Effect 2
« Reply #1136 on: 15 Mar 2010, 23:58 »

John you're smart enough to know what I'm getting at here, which is ultimately an admiration for Bioware's dedication to writing and craft that shine through in this game. Those tropes bother you for really broad reasons but don't really address what I'm talking about, which is that - regardless of tropes, which is an interesting avenue for talking about the politics of text but never have nearly as much bearing on the actual quality of a text as you seem to be placing on them - the game and its characters are well-written and well-developed. I take a lot of issue with your classification of several of the characters as "woobified" because that seems to be based more on a fan response to them than, well, their actual characters.
It's been awhile since I've conceived of Bioware's writers as being divorced from their fans, not just in aspects of game design but in characters and writing as well. David Gaider at the very least has not-so-subtly indicated that the fan reactions to his characters in KOTOR had a heavy impact on his subsequent characters (Kaidan in ME1 actually directly quotes fan complaints about Carth, if I remember correctly) As for the actual quality of the text, I don't necessarily agree that ME2 was particularly well written, aside from some notable exceptions (particularly Mordin and the Illusive Man). ME2's strength was largely in its combat design and choice / consequence, both of which were quite good, and both of which are most likely to be changed down the road, unfortunately.

As far as the woobification (I do wish there was a better word for that) I don't think it's something like seeing the constant misery in Dostoevsky's writing and going "huh". I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on whether the woobification is an intrinsic or extrinsic element of the writing. There are many elements of Bioware's writing and game design that are, if not repetitive, variations on core themes. The durability of these tropes doesn't speak to a weakness in Bioware's writing, but to their efficacy in eliciting reaction from the player. Big-name AAA game development is highly competitive and very, very expensive, and there's very little about those projects that isn't vetted w/r/t player reactions. The woobification is most obvious with Jack and Miranda, both of whom have tough exteriors that, it's heavily suggested, are defense mechanisms compensating for deep insecurity.

I'm also mystified because you seem to be confusing what you want, which is, well, I don't know what but it's something to do with sex, with what the game accomplishes, which is that it rounds its characters out the way it wants them rounded out while delivering romances.
My gripe with the Bioware romances has very little to do with the sex (though it has gotten more ridiculous in the last few games) and everything to do with the therapy in the "first-the-therapy-then-the-sex" plotline. What I'd like is for there to be greater variation in relationship dynamics between characters. I don't think that's possible in ME, for reasons I'll get to soon here. Beyond that, I'd be much happier if romances were better integrated into critical paths and used to raise stakes.

In terms of the Therapy Love thing, it applies to - who? The characters have motivations that the game establishes were formed independently of Shepard; as such, you don't so much push them to realize and fulfill them as you facilitate what they see as inevitable. Your choices, as a necessity of the gameplay Bioware developed, help shape the direction that fulfillment goes in, but it never feels particularly forced or unnatural, and that's again due to the strength of the writing.
I don't agree at all that the growth of these characters was in any way "inevitable". Whether or not you play life coach with the characters directly correlates to their survival chances in the endgame, so in a very real sense the need for healing is vital and solely invested in the player. Both Miranda and (to either a lesser or far greater extent) Jack  are in deep denial about how much their insecurities affect them, and the player has to gain their trust and "fix" them, hence "Therapy Love". As I said, the use of unresolved trauma and self-esteem issues as bonding agents between characters is a staple in RPGs by now. In BG2, the bulk of the romances consisted of getting your companion far enough out of full-blown PTSD (from Aerie's lost wings, Viconia's torture/rape/constant betrayal, Jaheira's murdered husband, Anomen's child abuse, etc.) to be in a relationship.

The big problem with ME in regard to this is that there's literally nothing else that Shepard can do besides save people. From the establishing shots of ME1 Shepard is characterized as a John McClane class badass, a flawless demigod who's inevitably going to save the galaxy no matter what he / she is up against. What's the point of the Superman / Lois Lane pairing if Lane can do everything herself?

I have a few complaints with Mass Effect 2's depiction of sex - the actual act itself, which is admittedly far less embarrassing than the sex in Dragon Age but still not quite mature in a small-m sense, and the occasional snippet of dialogue, such as Miranda asking Shepard if he'd like to admire her butt sometime - but by and large the model works, and it works on the strength of the writing, and it works regardless of those tropes. Mostly what distinguishes it from the first game is the writing, and I'm willing to give Bioware the benefit of the doubt for the third Mass Effect based exclusively on how much they improved between the first and second.
There's nothing I particularly minded about ME2's sex (I did find it funny when people got angry over Miranda's bra, as if anything less than suggested total nudity was a slap in the face of gamers) and they've set up the Kaidan / Ashley / Liara romance as something that's going to make a big difference in ME3, so I'm looking forward to seeing to what extent the romance will be integrated into the endgame. Hopefully well.
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Re: Mass Effect 2
« Reply #1137 on: 16 Mar 2010, 01:07 »

I didn't even realize that Gaider did any of the writing in Mass Effect, I thought he was the Dragon Age dude these days. Unless he wrote for the first game and is no longer part of that team.
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Re: Mass Effect 2
« Reply #1138 on: 16 Mar 2010, 01:29 »

I'm pretty sure Gaider wasn't a part of ME2's writing team, but he wrote at least one character (Kaidan) for ME1.
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Re: Mass Effect 2
« Reply #1139 on: 16 Mar 2010, 05:20 »

Can there be a new internet law stating that if you have to link to TVTropes to explain your point, you lost the argument?
Why? Using their terminology, no matter how much others hate it, doesn't invalidate an argument. And it can help as a shorthand for something that would take a lot longer to describe. The link's purpose is so that if someone doesn't know what it means, they can look it up. The same courtesy would be a good idea if you are using more obscure "proper English" words, but for the most part people either think that the words they use are common knowledge (I had an entire classroom of people get confused when I used the term misanthropist a few weeks ago), or are trying to sound like they are smarter than everyone else.
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Re: Mass Effect 2
« Reply #1140 on: 16 Mar 2010, 06:53 »

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Re: Mass Effect 2
« Reply #1141 on: 16 Mar 2010, 07:03 »

Garrus looks like he was in the tron movie.
felt this was somewhat related to the discussion.
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Re: Mass Effect 2
« Reply #1142 on: 16 Mar 2010, 08:11 »

Jack stole Miranda's boobs!
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Re: Mass Effect 2
« Reply #1143 on: 16 Mar 2010, 08:11 »

Someone finally gave Jack some clothes, huh? I don't see that particular alternate costume being too popular.
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Re: Mass Effect 2
« Reply #1144 on: 16 Mar 2010, 08:11 »

I'll use it.
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Re: Mass Effect 2
« Reply #1145 on: 16 Mar 2010, 12:40 »

Same. I'm always vaguely annoyed by how boobs are apparently a perfectly viable alternative to chainmail and hardened combat suits in most fiction.
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Re: Mass Effect 2
« Reply #1146 on: 16 Mar 2010, 21:32 »

Is it because game designers, having never touched boobs, automatically assume that they are rigid and dense enough to stop projectile weaponry?
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Re: Mass Effect 2
« Reply #1147 on: 16 Mar 2010, 21:36 »

like a bag of sand
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Re: Mass Effect 2
« Reply #1148 on: 16 Mar 2010, 21:40 »

Well it makes no sense with jack mostly because you are in space. You should not be able to wear nothing in the coldness of space.
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Re: Mass Effect 2
« Reply #1149 on: 16 Mar 2010, 21:45 »

Bet they could cut glass in such conditions.
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