THESE FORUMS NOW CLOSED (read only)

  • 28 Mar 2024, 13:48
  • Welcome, Guest
Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 [2]   Go Down

Author Topic: Varg Vikernes (Burzum) released from prison after 16 years  (Read 29227 times)

Hat

  • GET ON THE NIGHT TRAIN
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,536
  • bang bang a suckah MC shot me down

I don't think it's a complex moral issue.

I am talking about giving money to nazi's, not copyright law.

Like the topic was about originally

sometimes I think I am going crazy and making up imagined conversations we weren't actually talking about at all so when I yell "LETS TALK ABOUT NAZIS FOR FUCKS SAKE" it turns out I am the crazy one. This happens in real life as well, minus the luxury of being able to scroll back a page.
Logged
Quote from: Emilio
power metal set in the present is basically crunk

supersheep

  • Scrabble hacker
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,263
  • you'll have to speak up, i'm a fish and lack ears

The debate is whether or not illegal downloading can be theft. We can argue about the definition of theft all day, but basically...

If you have a product on your iPod that the artist probably intended for you to pay for and you didn't...
...they have lost money.
No no no no NO. It is NOT theft. Whether or not it's MORALLY right is another issue, but it is definitely not theft.

If you want to steal something, it has to be a real object, and you have to be depriving the previous owner of its use when you steal it. Neither of these things apply to downloaded music.

I've pointed this out before, but economics says that the price we should be paying for music now is zero. That's right, ZERO. Music (and digital information) is a post-scarcity environment. There's a whole wodge of interesting stuff in there about copyright, and I won't repeat Khar's masterful summary of the key issue.

On the whole giving money to fascists thing, I don't think there's anyone here who would argue that we should be giving money to fascists, so I dunno if there's much we can argue about there.
Logged
DJ Weight Problem: if you think semantics isn't that important maybe you should just can dig four banana nine jenkins razor blade dinosaur

Hat

  • GET ON THE NIGHT TRAIN
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,536
  • bang bang a suckah MC shot me down

If you just download all music regardless, you can't claim to be making an example of him by downloading his music because you're doing it to everyone regardless of their political stance

who said anything about an example? Some people are just legitimately uncomfortable knowing they've given money to a Nazi. Do you really think anyone is going to pirate a Burzum album and go "ho ho ho that'll learn him"

(no)
« Last Edit: 24 Sep 2009, 16:04 by Hat »
Logged
Quote from: Emilio
power metal set in the present is basically crunk

David_Dovey

  • Nearly grown up
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8,451
  • j'accuse!

I mean I know you've argued about it before but at least give us a specific link to focus on here instead of a link to the front page of his website or something.

Yes but I guess what I really wanted to achieve with posting that link (which I just could've easily stuck to my guns and not done anyway) is to basically get people to pay attention to the site in general because almost everything he has to say is pretty flippin' interesting. It was presented in the context of the argument at hand but it was more or less to rep the site to people who didn't know it existed.
Logged
It's a roasted cocoa bean, commonly found in vaginas.

Mr. Doctor

  • Scrabble hacker
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,323
  • X-Ray Rod

I buy his music because he's Norwegian. Whitey gotta stick together

You just maded my day, thank you.  :-)

I agree with supersheep in the definition of what's theft and what's not.
And also, in my case i couldn't care less since most of the bands I listen to are the ones that don't get enough selling for a living anyway and therefore they work normal jobs too. And they are also the bands that get most of their money from concerts than cds... Now that I think of it, most of the artist get way more money from concerts than cds... Last time I checked it was that way, I don't know how it is overall but I still have the opinion that dowloading is totally ok... and I still buy a lot of cds too!
« Last Edit: 25 Sep 2009, 07:29 by Mr. Doctor »
Logged

Sox

  • Scrabble hacker
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,390

No no no no NO. It is NOT theft. Whether or not it's MORALLY right is another issue, but it is definitely not theft.
If you want to steal something, it has to be a real object, and you have to be depriving the previous owner of its use when you steal it. Neither of these things apply to downloaded music.

The thing is, to some people, music isn't a right, but a privilege. That's a terrible way to look at music that I definitely do not approve of, but there are people in the industry who think like that. And if those people don't want us to listen to their music without paying for it, that's fine. It's their product and ultimately their decision to decide whether or not I have 'stolen' music. The law might not agree with them, but until you're being slapped with a lawsuit then law never comes into these debates, they're entirely about who thinks they have the moral higher ground.

If you took a naked picture of your girlfriend and charged money to see it, that'd be fine. If I stole a look anyway and you called me out on it, that'd be fine too. If you told me that I had no right to take a peek without handing you £5, I would agree with you. Whether the picture is worth £5 to look at or not doesn't come into it. It wasn't mine to look at. Even though there's nothing material that I am taking away from you.
That's all digital music is. It's a 'look'.

This is not a debate about law and it is not a debate about copyright, despite words like 'theft' and 'stealing' being thrown around.
There are two individuals involved in this.
The artist and the consumer. They alone choose whether or not they are stealing or being stolen from and it is nobody elses place to say.

Respect the artist. Respect the consumer. And don't bring in some bullshit about copyright to defend a moral stance.
Logged

David_Dovey

  • Nearly grown up
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8,451
  • j'accuse!

Darryl that's a really dogshit analogy
Logged
It's a roasted cocoa bean, commonly found in vaginas.

Sox

  • Scrabble hacker
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,390

You're just sore that I won't show you the picture.
Come on man, you can afford it.
Logged

Hat

  • GET ON THE NIGHT TRAIN
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,536
  • bang bang a suckah MC shot me down

who said anything about an example? Some people are just legitimately uncomfortable knowing they've given money to a Nazi. Do you really think anyone is going to pirate a Burzum album and go "ho ho ho that'll learn him"

On the first page people seemed to be implying that he would be an exception because they wouldn't buy his music. This would be bullshit if they didn't buy anyone's music.

In the case of Beopuppy, he genuinely does buy other people's music but not Varg's.

There is a difference between what people seem to imply and what people are actually saying. "Seemed to imply" is a rhetorical phrase that is not very helpful because it's just not clear what you are trying to say here.

It seems like you are saying "People say they want to make an example of him by not buying his albums but if they pirate them how can they make an example of him" which would be fair except nobody has actually said that they don't pay for music but still want to make an example of him. In fact nobody has even implied that or even SEEMED to imply that as far as I can tell

Darryl that's a really dogshit analogy

Not if Darryl is a big record label and his girlfriend is a struggling band.

« Last Edit: 27 Sep 2009, 02:42 by Hat »
Logged
Quote from: Emilio
power metal set in the present is basically crunk

David_Dovey

  • Nearly grown up
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8,451
  • j'accuse!

Mostly I just took issue with this:

If you told me that I had no right to take a peek without handing you £5, I would agree with you.

what
Logged
It's a roasted cocoa bean, commonly found in vaginas.

Hat

  • GET ON THE NIGHT TRAIN
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,536
  • bang bang a suckah MC shot me down

Look I'm not going to say that "seemed to imply" has absolutely no legitimate use in conversation, but you can't just use it to project shit onto people like that. Saying "I don't feel comfortable giving money to a nazi" does not imply anything about music piracy in any way and it seems like you just wanted to pick the same pedantic fight/circle jerk about music piracy we have around here every second week when we could have a discussion about this instead. Dovey seems to think we have argued about the wall between artist and art enough around here not to bother but honestly it can't be nearly as many times as we've had the exact same discussion about music piracy.
Logged
Quote from: Emilio
power metal set in the present is basically crunk

Hat

  • GET ON THE NIGHT TRAIN
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,536
  • bang bang a suckah MC shot me down

I mean, Dovey seems to imply that Darryl is running some kind of prostitution ring and I can say that as much as I want to support my argument he is an amoral prick but luckily if either one of them calls me out it does not necessarily negate my argument because I've set it up as just one of the pillars of Darryls shitbaggery and I'm sure I can build plenty more.
Logged
Quote from: Emilio
power metal set in the present is basically crunk
Pages: 1 [2]   Go Up