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Author Topic: OnLive  (Read 14657 times)

JD

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OnLive
« on: 25 Mar 2009, 13:50 »

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Re: OnLive
« Reply #1 on: 25 Mar 2009, 14:25 »

[keanu]Whao...[/keanu]

If that works, it could be the best thing to happen to gaming in years. Possibly ever. Being the kind of person who isn't hugely into PC gaming due entirely to the annoyance and expense of regular upgrades, this makes me all kinds of excited.
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Re: OnLive
« Reply #2 on: 25 Mar 2009, 14:40 »

yeah, same here.

but i kinda get the feeling that this might end up being one of those good ideas that still ends up flopping, for whatever reason. i dunno though, that's just a mild hunch and not really based on anything.
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Re: OnLive
« Reply #3 on: 25 Mar 2009, 15:05 »

Whoa. Who-ho-ho-ho-hoa. Does that mean that, in the future, you may not need hardware beyond what is necessary to project it on your screen? That is awesome. If Steam incorporated this too, they'll probably be set for life, as well as all of their members who can stop spending loads of cash on hardware upgrades. But wait, what does this mean to the producers? Will NVidia's sales plummet because OnLive is the only one buying their products?

The only problem I can think of is the internet connection. You'd basically be trading hardware reliability for internet connection reliability, but with internet connection failure the loss is much greater. Hmm...
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Re: OnLive
« Reply #4 on: 25 Mar 2009, 16:15 »

I really do think the issue is going to be hardware manufacturer's being very unhappy with the situation. I mean, as much as i hate the upgrade cycle on PCs, it fuels a lot of progress in the hardware.

At best, I see this being a more modernized version of Gametap being like, mostly 2 or 3 years behind. Certainly not a bad thing, but there's no way in hell publishers and console giants would allow their newer titles get on this service until sales started dipping.
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Re: OnLive
« Reply #5 on: 25 Mar 2009, 16:31 »

I actually had this idea about a year ago. Interesting to see it come to fruition.

The truth is, you can build a whole PC into a card that'll fit into a PCI-E slot on a fuckhuge server. That's what my dad did, except they were Supercomputers. (okay so he helped write the software to make the things, but w/e.) I bet you could even set up certain games to run off multiple cardPCs or run off newer ones, depending on the hardware needed.

if it were a simple game, you could probably even have hundreds of people running off 1 card.
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Re: OnLive
« Reply #6 on: 25 Mar 2009, 17:20 »

This is an amazing idea. I am really excited about this. Though I do wish Microsoft and Sony would jump on board. I mean they loose money on selling the hardware, why not let someone else bear the brunt of that cost.

Sadly I just imagine that MS/Sony will try to create competing services rather than banding together.
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Re: OnLive
« Reply #7 on: 25 Mar 2009, 17:39 »

It would require a ridiculous internet connection, taking out possible sales to a pretty good sized chunk of the country. No way they'd be willing to lose customers who don't have the proper location for internet.

Besides, competition is usually a very good thing.
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Chesire Cat

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Re: OnLive
« Reply #8 on: 25 Mar 2009, 18:17 »

Not when competition has the purchasing power and sway to buy up devs and publishers. And as it said, there is very little upstream for the average user.  Pirate Bay hurts the internet more than this ever would
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KvP

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Re: OnLive
« Reply #9 on: 25 Mar 2009, 18:24 »

In order to get a good connection you'd probably have to be within 1,000 miles of the nearest datacenter, and I'm not sure how much capital OnLive can raise to set up enough of those. It'll almost certainly be a luxury available only to urban gamers at least in the beginning of the service.

Giantbomb claims 80ms latency on the service. 60hz (the typical monitor update rate) is 60 refreshes per second. That's why over 60fps on is meaningless. That's 1 update every 17ms. So I think you'd want to get it down to below 30ms -- 15ms ideally. 80ms in multiplayer online game is pretty damn nice all things considered. But in that case your graphics update at a rate of 0ms (instantly) due to the bulk of the lifting being done on the client side, so only the computations from other players are slightly delayed. In this case it'd be everything delayed. So basically, this has the potential to be terrible.
« Last Edit: 25 Mar 2009, 18:26 by KvP »
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Re: OnLive
« Reply #10 on: 25 Mar 2009, 18:47 »

Not when competition has the purchasing power and sway to buy up devs and publishers. And as it said, there is very little upstream for the average user.  Pirate Bay hurts the internet more than this ever would

Once again, you have the problem of not having a system to sell it on, and devs would require quite a lot of money for licensing in order to make back money on their ridiculously high cost games. The monthly sub would be silly as fuck for this service.

Also, I'm not sure how this could hurt the internet at all.

Also also, everything KvP said.
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Re: OnLive
« Reply #11 on: 25 Mar 2009, 20:03 »

Only 720p and it's gonna eat up all your bandwidth... Nothanks.

It could be an awesome idea but it seems like it would be laggy and shit, even when playing online with other people there is latency issues, but if it is all server side the streaming to the client could be a big problem, I am wondering if they have a protocol devised to use for this and not make it shit, I hope it is good but dunno how awesome it can be :|
« Last Edit: 26 Mar 2009, 21:34 by clockworkjames »
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JD

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Re: OnLive
« Reply #12 on: 25 Mar 2009, 20:08 »

Lag is an obvious issue but the guy in the interview looked insanely confident. I am so optimistic about this.
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Re: OnLive
« Reply #13 on: 25 Mar 2009, 20:13 »

I call bullshit. Beyond fiberwire, what kind of connection can support streaming 720p without even a hint of lag?
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Re: OnLive
« Reply #14 on: 25 Mar 2009, 21:04 »

Umm cable TV doesnt lag and its streamed to your TV. Seriously people, you will be happier if you arent so pessimistic.
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Re: OnLive
« Reply #15 on: 25 Mar 2009, 22:11 »

Umm cable TV doesnt lag and its streamed to your TV. Seriously people, you will be happier if you arent so pessimistic.

That's because cable TV is a very simple format with little necessary decoding to make the picture appear. (Old fashioned analog TVs aren't particularly complicated, especially compared to a computer network.)

You aren't interacting with the content streaming to your TV; at most all you do is change channels and that's done client-side (similar to current client/server multiplayer games). It doesn't make any practical difference if the show you watch lags half a second behind what the headend is receiving. Would you play a game with a 500ms ping? (Don't just list games like Virtual Chess and online poker; games like that are so simple it would be impractical to run on this system because any computer made in the last decade can run them.)

I've got 1.5 meg DSL, and 720p video can't stream in real time without compressing the living hell out of it. So I can see a lot of users squinting to play games that look like YouTube videos.

EDIT: And depending on what hardware you're running on, you might need at least an entry level GPU anyway to decode the video in real time. The netbook crowd (obviously one of the big markets they're aiming for), if they want to run at native screen resolution, might be out of luck with their 1.3-1.6 ghz processors and the old GMA 950.
« Last Edit: 25 Mar 2009, 22:23 by bicostp »
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Re: OnLive
« Reply #16 on: 25 Mar 2009, 22:59 »

Umm cable TV doesnt lag and its streamed to your TV. Seriously people, you will be happier if you arent so pessimistic.

Cable TV doesn't require input. Of course there is no lag. And even then there is noticeable trails and stutter because of the low framerate, in many cases.
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Re: OnLive
« Reply #17 on: 25 Mar 2009, 23:22 »

Trust me, I'd love for this to work: it sounds innovative and enough of a gimmick to lure more gamers to the PC market. Unfortunately, I just don't see that being the case. Quality of service, and ping to the servers are both huge boundaries to overcome. Even a 30ms gap is enough to make the controls feel sluggish and out-of-sync, especially with another 30ms delay on the return signal.
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KvP

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Re: OnLive
« Reply #18 on: 26 Mar 2009, 13:48 »

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Re: OnLive
« Reply #19 on: 26 Mar 2009, 17:30 »

I've been listening to all kinds of debate about this, but basically, regardless of its potential pros and cons I'm not going to believe this technology is real until I can buy it in a store. It certainly sounds viable, but I'm getting a serious whiff of Phantom 2.0 from the pie-in-the-sky future that people are talking about with regards to this.
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snalin

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Re: OnLive
« Reply #20 on: 27 Mar 2009, 00:43 »

The bad thing about this is that it will prevent piracy. Don't get me wrong, this is good for the business. But steam has just figured out that cutting prices increases profit, so you actually get sales every week and low price games. If I go to a shop, I have to pay fucking tons of money to get a new game. With steam having to compete with the free piracy, the only choice they have is to cut prices. Without piracy, the companies have no reason to cut the prices. And then we are back to the stage where indie games are the only thing I really can afford.
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Re: OnLive
« Reply #21 on: 27 Mar 2009, 09:31 »

Man I will pay through the nose just so that someone else has to deal with all the shitty drm that's stopping me from playing the games I buy.

Though, knowing australia and it's approach to communications infrastructure, onlive, once someone gets it delivering on it's promises will take at least ten more years to be available here so piracy will still be the easiest option.
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Re: OnLive
« Reply #22 on: 27 Mar 2009, 11:04 »

It's not really pessimistic to be sceptical about this, it's just realistic. Honestly, if you know your computer and networking history the underlying concept isn't that terribly mindblowing. It's the idea that they think they can do it with current tech at the level of quality they're pushing that is.
« Last Edit: 27 Mar 2009, 11:23 by Alex C »
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dennis

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Re: OnLive
« Reply #23 on: 29 Mar 2009, 19:27 »

In order to get a good connection you'd probably have to be within 1,000 miles of the nearest datacenter, and I'm not sure how much capital OnLive can raise to set up enough of those. It'll almost certainly be a luxury available only to urban gamers at least in the beginning of the service.

The United States covers approximately 3.79 million square miles. A circle of radius 1000 miles covers an area of 3.14 million square miles. Keep in mind that over half the land area of the US is very sparsely populated, and the contiguous US covers only 3.1 million square miles.

Assuming this 1000 miles figure is true, then accounting for the vagaries of geography, you'd only need two to cover the continental US and two more for Alaska and Hawaii.
« Last Edit: 29 Mar 2009, 19:30 by dennis »
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dennis

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Re: OnLive
« Reply #24 on: 29 Mar 2009, 19:35 »

My friend and I have been discussing this, and we think the biggest obstacle for OnLive will be the ISPs. The vast majority of broadband subscribers are simply not capable of 5 Mbps down that OnLive requires for full quality. True, many ISPs advertise higher speeds, but the realities of networks mean that you will rarely get even 75% of the advertised speed at best, and much less sustained. Also, keep in mind that the most popular broadband technology, cable HSI, depends on all of its subscribers using only a fraction of their bandwidth cap at any given time.

But then again, who knows what the broadband market and tech will look like in a couple of years?
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JD

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Re: OnLive
« Reply #25 on: 29 Mar 2009, 19:43 »

It is straight out of GDC. They haven't even gone into beta. I'm willing to bet the technology will improve by the time we get our hands on it.
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Re: OnLive
« Reply #26 on: 29 Mar 2009, 21:04 »

if it works, great, though i don't see it being to reliable, when it comes to server-side things in mmos, they just don't seem to run smoothly, and considering the entire game would be run server-side, i don't see it being smooth at all.
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dennis

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Re: OnLive
« Reply #27 on: 30 Mar 2009, 08:17 »

I'm sure Gamestop isn't happy about this.

Also, OnLive basically gives game publishers all the control over how you play your games and what you do with them.
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Re: OnLive
« Reply #28 on: 30 Mar 2009, 08:34 »

I am actually way more interested in Goo and Steam's DRM solution.  I'm too proud of having built my machine to start playing games like this.
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Re: OnLive
« Reply #29 on: 30 Mar 2009, 12:00 »

The vast majority of broadband subscribers are simply not capable of 5 Mbps down that OnLive requires for full quality. True, many ISPs advertise higher speeds, but the realities of networks mean that you will rarely get even 75% of the advertised speed at best, and much less sustained.

The announcer basically said that. He claimed that you could get full quality with what the companies sold as 5 MB connections, which according to him is more like 4-4.5

But prices have been dropping. My connection has an actual speed of 10 MB/sec, and we pay $50 a month. It's not that long ago we had to pay almost $40 for 1.5 MB/sec. In two years most not poor people will afford an actual speed of 5 MB with ease.
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Re: OnLive
« Reply #30 on: 30 Mar 2009, 12:08 »

Assuming your in the right area, yes. You also have to keep in mind things like Quality of Service levels, Jitter and the like. Most ISPs I've had to deal with are loathe to even admit these settings even exist to most of their customers and are a serious pain in the ass to deal with when that kind of issue arises.
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Re: OnLive
« Reply #31 on: 31 Mar 2009, 06:34 »

The vast majority of broadband subscribers are simply not capable of 5 Mbps down that OnLive requires for full quality. True, many ISPs advertise higher speeds, but the realities of networks mean that you will rarely get even 75% of the advertised speed at best, and much less sustained.

The announcer basically said that. He claimed that you could get full quality with what the companies sold as 5 MB connections, which according to him is more like 4-4.5

But prices have been dropping. My connection has an actual speed of 10 MB/sec, and we pay $50 a month. It's not that long ago we had to pay almost $40 for 1.5 MB/sec. In two years most not poor people will afford an actual speed of 5 MB with ease.
Ok, so bandwidth may not be an issue. I still have lag issues playing low bandwidth online games such as Halo Wars with a friend who lives less than a mile away and is on the same ISP. We both have 8 Mb down and 2 Mb up connections. This is assuming that our service is even up at the time. I'm not sure how enjoyable it'll be to play an FPS on a console up to 1000 miles away on such a connection.
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JD

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Re: OnLive
« Reply #32 on: 18 Dec 2009, 17:10 »

Ok, the beta testing is go. You can sign up here
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Re: OnLive
« Reply #33 on: 18 Dec 2009, 17:14 »

Apparently they got it to work on 2 I-Phones? woah
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Re: OnLive
« Reply #34 on: 18 Dec 2009, 17:37 »

I was looking into this last week. Sadly the beta test is USA only. But apparently they are go for winter '09 and havent revised the release date to my knowledge.

Still, super excited about this. This could change the face of gaming to come in a mostly positive way. Some people will bitch about DRM issues and the fact you dont own the games etc. Me personally am 100% for this.
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Re: OnLive
« Reply #35 on: 18 Dec 2009, 18:01 »

I can't believe they're still trying to progress with this.
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JD

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Re: OnLive
« Reply #36 on: 18 Dec 2009, 19:15 »

It is because they are people of science.
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Re: OnLive
« Reply #37 on: 19 Dec 2009, 20:29 »

Anyone who has used anything like RDP or VNC into a machine that is just across the room from you will know that this is a bullshit idea.  If desktop screens lag noticeably over a LAN then you're not gonna be able to play games over any kind of internet connection.
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Re: OnLive
« Reply #38 on: 19 Dec 2009, 20:30 »

As an aside, I am really fucking sick of people trying to put everything into the cloud.  It is good for some things, not all.
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Re: OnLive
« Reply #39 on: 19 Dec 2009, 20:51 »

« Last Edit: 19 Dec 2009, 21:01 by Zombiedude »
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Re: OnLive
« Reply #40 on: 19 Dec 2009, 21:13 »

As if the creator of the service is going to say anything different.

Look, if it works then that's great.  It'll be one more way for people to be able to game.  I just have grave doubts about something that relies upon such an unreliable medium as home internet connections.
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Re: OnLive
« Reply #41 on: 19 Dec 2009, 21:16 »

Also, something I think Tommy said a while ago about motion-based controllers also applies here.  I see the majority of consumers as people who expect things to work well all the time.  If people start experiencing lag or being unable to play games when their internet is out/playing up then they're not going to bother with it and the platform will die.
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Re: OnLive
« Reply #42 on: 19 Dec 2009, 22:06 »

If it's going to work, South Korea will be a good test bed, since they have the infrastructure that might be able to support it.
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Re: OnLive
« Reply #43 on: 19 Dec 2009, 22:57 »

The lag is the least of the problems with this idea, and the lag is a pretty big problem.
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Re: OnLive
« Reply #44 on: 20 Dec 2009, 09:16 »

Well really I imagine input lag to be the biggest prob and that one being largely a nuisance. Id suffer some input lag for this to work.
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Re: OnLive
« Reply #45 on: 20 Dec 2009, 09:25 »

Why? I mean, why would you suffer anything at all for this to work? Is it so important? Where's the imperative?
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Re: OnLive
« Reply #46 on: 20 Dec 2009, 09:31 »

Being broke.
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Re: OnLive
« Reply #47 on: 20 Dec 2009, 19:00 »

o  i  c
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Re: OnLive
« Reply #48 on: 21 Dec 2009, 09:17 »

I'm trying to get my head around how expensive this'll be for the consumer. I can't see how it could possibly cost less than a home PC, really.
All that seems to be happening is that 'your' computer is being shifted a sizeable distance away from you. The same technology is going to be needed to play the games, and then on top of that you need a fast and reliable internet connection.
And then there are the people who will have to be employed around the clock to maintain the computers which actually run the games. And these can't be simple PCs - they're going to need to be capable of streaming games to hundreds of people simultaneously so they're bound to  crash frequently and they'll need to be specially designed and constructed for their unique function, meaning they'll be expensive and hard to maintain/repair.
And they will still need to be updated as frequently as a home PC - except they'll need to be updated more frequently than the average PC user does - they'll need to keep up with the demands of hardcore gamers who won't settle for anything less than the very best and more importantly are probably going to be the bulk of people paying for the service. I find it hard to believe the average consumer is going to find a monthly fee just to play any games at all a desirable option.

So, yeah, I don't see how this could be a 'cheap' alternative. It seems like a pretty darned expensive route to take, really.
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ackblom12

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Re: OnLive
« Reply #49 on: 21 Dec 2009, 09:53 »

Not to mention the licensing that wil be required to allow the games on the service in the first place.
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