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Author Topic: the Chevy Volt (and other "plug-in" cars)  (Read 13759 times)

Cam

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Re: the Chevy Volt (and other "plug-in" cars)
« Reply #50 on: 20 Aug 2008, 14:15 »

As some one that has been interested in plug-in hybrids for quite a while and listens to way too much NPR, I would like to correct a few assumptions in this conversation.

1) Toyota is not on record as saying plug-in hybrids can't be done.  At least, if they were, they changed their mind since they are the only company that might beat Chevy to the punch of bringing a plug-in hybrid to the market since they are developing their own Plug-In Hybrid Prius.

2) A plug-in hybrid/electric car pollutes half as much as the gasoline powered counter parts even if they are charged from dirty fossil fuels like coal.  So, plug-in hybrids could lead to a 50% reduction in pollution while they are in full electric mode.

3) The American power grid has enough capacity to charge around 180 million electric cars/plug-in hybrid.  Electric capacity currently peaks during the day time.  We don't come close to using it all at night.  So, if people drive to work, school ,etc, and then come home and plug-in their cars at night, there isn't a capacity problem and won't be for a long time.

Basically, plug-in hybrids are going to be a really nice option to have.  They will be pricey when they come out, but they are much better for the environment over all and there is capacity to handle charging them. 
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Re: the Chevy Volt (and other "plug-in" cars)
« Reply #51 on: 20 Aug 2008, 22:43 »

I still stand by Fuel Cells as a more long term solution than battery powered cars
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ViolentDove

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Re: the Chevy Volt (and other "plug-in" cars)
« Reply #52 on: 20 Aug 2008, 23:43 »

And I still stand by biodiesel, on account of the fact you can use it in existing cars (thus it can be readily used in developing countries), and with existing infrastructure.

So there!

Some kind of death-race situation between an electric, fuel cell and biodiesel car seems like the obvious way to solve this dispute.
« Last Edit: 20 Aug 2008, 23:47 by ViolentDove »
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Re: the Chevy Volt (and other "plug-in" cars)
« Reply #53 on: 21 Aug 2008, 01:27 »

The trouble with biodiesel is that you are taking growing capacity away from the food supply, so you end up with higher food prices.  If I lived in a poor country I'd rather eat than drive when the chips are down.
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Re: the Chevy Volt (and other "plug-in" cars)
« Reply #54 on: 21 Aug 2008, 03:25 »

Paul, that still depends on the source of said biodiesel. Soy, palmoil and others, yes, do take growing capacity away from the food industry. What i personally am more interested in, is the use of algea to get there. (Even though, they have kind of written that method off for basically everything that isnt near the equator, as you do need a fair bit load of sun to make that worthwhile)

Also, i have the feeling that there is a breaktrhough in energyproduction coming up relatively soon. We do live in interesting times :)
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Re: the Chevy Volt (and other "plug-in" cars)
« Reply #55 on: 21 Aug 2008, 05:34 »

The thing is there's so many different kinds of alternative energy vying for attention nowadays. In a way that's good, because we're going to need to diversify and use as many as we can to break away from oil, but it also makes it hard for companies and consumers to decide on what technologies to back and to buy, and it seems like every time a green technology gets a foothold, a new, better one comes along and kind of renders that older one nul..
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Re: the Chevy Volt (and other "plug-in" cars)
« Reply #56 on: 21 Aug 2008, 07:17 »

Yeah who wants their car to run on Betamax?
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ViolentDove

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Re: the Chevy Volt (and other "plug-in" cars)
« Reply #57 on: 21 Aug 2008, 20:18 »

Paul, that still depends on the source of said biodiesel. Soy, palmoil and others, yes, do take growing capacity away from the food industry. What i personally am more interested in, is the use of algea to get there. (Even though, they have kind of written that method off for basically everything that isnt near the equator, as you do need a fair bit load of sun to make that worthwhile)

Also, i have the feeling that there is a breaktrhough in energyproduction coming up relatively soon. We do live in interesting times :)


Yeah, algal "bio-reactors" were what I was referring to as well (I posted briefly  earlier in this thread about it). I know there are several companies moving from small pilot projects to pilot commercial-scale plants within the next few years, including one within Australia that is decidedly south of the equator.
« Last Edit: 21 Aug 2008, 20:31 by ViolentDove »
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Re: the Chevy Volt (and other "plug-in" cars)
« Reply #58 on: 21 Aug 2008, 22:31 »

The trouble with biodiesel is that you are taking growing capacity away from the food supply, so you end up with higher food prices.  If I lived in a poor country I'd rather eat than drive when the chips are down.
I disagree, where my father grew up, they used to grow sugar beets. Now, they sell their water rights to Denver, because it is more profitable. Now, assuming they could get their rights back, and that it wouldn't cause Denver to suddenly run out of water, there are thousands of acres of former farmland good for sugar beets out there, and that works just fine for biodiesel. I am sure there is much more farmland out there that currently isn't being used because there is just too much work for too little profit.

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Re: the Chevy Volt (and other "plug-in" cars)
« Reply #59 on: 24 Aug 2008, 13:14 »

One of the best things about electric motors is the low-rpm torque. The Prius uses the high torque from the electric motor to enable using the low-torque but efficient Atkinson cycle in its gas engine.

Using electric cars just moves the pollution from the car to the power plant, but that's still a good thing. The power plant's pollution controls don't have to be light enough to carry around, they don't have to be small enough to carry around, they can be maintained by full-time people, and the pollution that does come out isn't right next to pedestrians. Plus you can upgrade the pollution controls on the power plant: with cars you have to wait for a replacement cycle. The average car on the road is over eight years old.

If GM's serious this time I welcome them.

There's another electric with an onboard charger, the Aptera. If you want conventional styling, though, skip it.

I can't find a cite for this, but I've seen claims that even if you generate the electricity from coal, an electric car causes less CO2 production than a gasoline car. It's not a crazy claim. A stationary power plant is more efficient than a gas engine, and the electric car recycles energy when it brakes, so it's using less energy to run as well as getting the energy generated more efficiently.
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Re: the Chevy Volt (and other "plug-in" cars)
« Reply #60 on: 24 Aug 2008, 19:48 »

A stationary power plant is more efficient than a gas engine

modern internal combustion engines = 25-30% efficiency
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_efficiency

Average Coal power plants = about 31% efficient
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_energy_efficiency_of_an_average_coal_powered_plant

Unless you have a coal gassification power plants those = around 50% efficient
http://www.fossil.energy.gov/programs/powersystems/gasification/index.html

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Re: the Chevy Volt (and other "plug-in" cars)
« Reply #61 on: 25 Aug 2008, 01:42 »

A short little article in Salon about the comparison of grid-dependent vs. combustion engine efficiency. It concludes that an entirely grid-dependent car (the Tesla roadster, in this case) drawing from coal plants is on average about as efficient as a Prius is now. A car drawing from natural gas power, however, is many times more efficient.
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Re: the Chevy Volt (and other "plug-in" cars)
« Reply #62 on: 28 Aug 2008, 01:55 »

Many new technologies are on the horizion, to make electric cars feasible, However, when considering the carbon foot print of a car (if thats why you want a hybrid), you have to consider more than the effeicency. The cost of production of an Electric Car, in carbon, other green house gasses, and other pollutants, is higher than that of an ordinary car, or better, buying a seconded hand car. Reduce Reuse Recycle. Particularly the Mining and Extraction of chemicals for the batteries.

Has anyone ever seen a Laptop Lithium Ion battery explode? it does happen, at a not significant rate. Imagine what will happen when a Car Battery like that goes bang?

High Capatitance Capacitors are currently beening worked on, they look quite promising.

But what I think will actually be used is something like this: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article4133668.ece


See, Oil (in one of it's refined forms) is a massivly useful fuel. it's compact, easy to store, relitivly safe, energy dense and we all ready have billions of cars that run on it.

The best thing about Biodesil from Bacteria or Algae is it can, if done right, be carbon negative.
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Re: the Chevy Volt (and other "plug-in" cars)
« Reply #63 on: 03 Apr 2009, 14:46 »

thread resurrection.

Looks like GM is teetering on a precipice and the Volt could be vaporware.

According to yon New York Times, however, China is unveiling a plan to become the world's leading producer of hybrid and electric cars. Sort of surprising no? Is this a good thing? Is it a bad thing?
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Chesire Cat

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Re: the Chevy Volt (and other "plug-in" cars)
« Reply #64 on: 03 Apr 2009, 15:33 »

Well its certainly a thing to say the least. 

I still say Fuel Cells should be the future of clean renewable cars
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ViolentDove

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Re: the Chevy Volt (and other "plug-in" cars)
« Reply #65 on: 03 Apr 2009, 17:28 »

Good for China, good for the world, bad for America, I suppose?
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With cake ownership set to C and cake consumption set to K, then C + K = 0.  So indeed as one consumes a cake, one simultaneously deprives oneself of cake ownership. 

DonInKansas

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Re: the Chevy Volt (and other "plug-in" cars)
« Reply #66 on: 05 Apr 2009, 06:25 »


As pointed out already, you'd need a source of electricity other than coal, otherwise it's not really solving much.


Windmills, bitches.

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Re: the Chevy Volt (and other "plug-in" cars)
« Reply #67 on: 05 Apr 2009, 08:57 »

Not bad for grinding corn...
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Re: the Chevy Volt (and other "plug-in" cars)
« Reply #68 on: 05 Apr 2009, 09:31 »

All the public lighting in my town is powered by 2 windmills. It's not a viable power source for an electric car revolution, but it's certainly good for other stuff.
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Re: the Chevy Volt (and other "plug-in" cars)
« Reply #69 on: 17 Apr 2009, 19:59 »

Like electrolysizing water for hydrogen production for powering cars because batteries our not the answer to our problems.

Information on hydrogen from a really great chemistry company: http://www.switch2hydrogen.com/h2.htm
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Re: the Chevy Volt (and other "plug-in" cars)
« Reply #70 on: 24 Apr 2009, 21:27 »

radiation-eating parasitic fungi capable of controlling host behaviour
???
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Re: the Chevy Volt (and other "plug-in" cars)
« Reply #71 on: 15 May 2009, 21:50 »

Well remember that plants use sunlight for photosynthesis to harness energy, these mushrooms do basically the same thing except with higher energy radiation and with melanin instead of chlorophyll. I didn't read anything in that article about them being parasitic or being able to control host behavior though.
Sorry for resurrecting the thread. It has been a while since I've been on.
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Re: the Chevy Volt (and other "plug-in" cars)
« Reply #72 on: 16 May 2009, 00:18 »

Uh, hi thread.

The parasitic control of host behaviour was in reference to Johnny C's referencing of Cordyceps, a genus of fungi in which there are species that parasitise insects, make them climb to the  top of a tree, and then devour them from the inside and fruit so they can spread their spores.
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With cake ownership set to C and cake consumption set to K, then C + K = 0.  So indeed as one consumes a cake, one simultaneously deprives oneself of cake ownership. 

Llewellian

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Re: the Chevy Volt (and other "plug-in" cars)
« Reply #73 on: 07 Jun 2009, 08:24 »

Electrical cars, huh?

Well, i worked partly on that during my University time (Engineering of high power electric systems and distribution).

Lets say, scientists have to work MUCH on that issue until the electric car will be an "all day everywhere usable system".

The main problem behind it is the "power to weight ratio".

Sure. Electric power can be changed into motion power at very high rates. Electric motors are the most efficient motors. The problem behind it is to store the power you need to move around 1.5 Tons of Car for more than 200 km. Currently, the best batteries out there you can get are those in your mobile phones. Lithium-Ion Accumulators. Problem: Expensive. And when it comes to high power output... they tend to degrade fast. Lose their capacity. Replacement is expensive.

And their "power to weight ratio" sucks still ginormous.

As example, i'll take my current car. Takes in 5.2-6 litres of Diesel for 100 km waylenght. With my 60 liter Tank i can go over 1000 km. Refill is done in under 5 minutes. And the "weight" that my car has to carry around (and get to move) is nearly 1 kilo per litre. So, fully tanked, my car is 60 kilos heavier.

And then - the electric cars. Modern electric cars have battery blocks weighting around 500 kilos. In case of the most promising car manufacturer (Silicon Valley based Tesla Motors), that is between 1/3 (Roadster) and 1/4 (Sedan Version) of the overall car weight. And they can only go 400 kilometres with that. Then its "Quick Charge Time". 45 minutes. Which is... not very widely accepted at the customer base. Especially when you want to travel.


And there is the other side.

Where does the power come from to charge it?

From the electric grid.

Now, we just make some easy math, taking the specs of the Roadster Battery block. Fully charged, it holds 55 kWh electric power. Thats not too much, i dare say, that would apply to nearly every future model from whatever firm. Average overall. Downside: The charging uses up around 20% of the overall capacity going poof in thermal energy. Means: Around 10 kWh additionaly.

Lets say, there will be around 1 Million electric cars out there in the next 10 years in the USA. Thats not too much, according to the actual statistics (2006: 135.000.000 Cars driven by US People). That means, that you need additional power plants. To serve every day (lets assume, everybody will only drive 300 miles a day and charges only one time a day) 55 GIGAWATTHOURS. That is the capacity of around 12-15 nuclear power plants. And an extra 10 Gigawatthours only for charging. Additional 3 plants for "nothing".

And - from the technical side... no offense meant, just speaking as someone that has to deal with that shit everyday: The US-American Electric Grid is shortly before the Great BOOM. For a) it is more outdated, rundown and shitty than everything that you even can find in Third World Countries, it runs b) on nearly 98% of its capacity. There is not one single day that we have not to deal with systems going down due to brownouts.


So:

There is much to do. Very, very much.

- The customer base. More mileage, even quicker reload. Everywhere Docking Stations. Like your everyday gas pump. You cannot sell that to "normal" people until you dont fulfill their customer base wishes.
- The technics sourrounding the whole thing. Complete rebuild, update and strengthening of the power grid. Hey, its not only the cars that raise the capacity need. More light, more firms, more whatever is hungry for electric power.

The last point is the most cost extensive. And environmental unfriendly. We speak about cost estimates of 500+ BILLION USD. And building new plants. A lot of new power plants. Not very environmentally friendly, having more powerlines cutting through landscapes, burning oil or even more badly: Uranium to get the power.


If you ask me:

From an engineers opinion, the best way is, yes to electric motors in the car. But store the energy in chemical form. Use fuel cells to get the power for the motors. Store and serve the chemical agent (like gas) at the normal tanking stations. Why? This way, it serves more people, does not stress the power grid, is already existing and hasn`t to be rebuild from scratch (gas stations).

And this way, you can use whatever plants decentrally to create that stuff. Like, over an energy extensive high pressure process with catalysators to create natural gas (methane) out of Carbondioxide and Water. And if you dont want to do this by means of chemical science - algae can do that. Clorophyll is the stuff. Do it over the biomass circle.

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Re: the Chevy Volt (and other "plug-in" cars)
« Reply #74 on: 07 Jun 2009, 09:01 »

Technology for batteries, motors, and construction materials should keep improving exponentially, and a revolution in the future of how we produce and distribute energy seems very necessary (eg. decentralised, renewable energy).
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Re: the Chevy Volt (and other "plug-in" cars)
« Reply #75 on: 07 Jun 2009, 09:24 »

Battery technology is one of the slowest developing there is.  I shouldn't plan for a dramatic improvement in the foreseeable future.
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Re: the Chevy Volt (and other "plug-in" cars)
« Reply #76 on: 07 Jun 2009, 12:19 »

Hm... there is always the difference between batteries and capacitors. The first stores high amounts of energy, but cannot emit that very fast, same for charging. Capacitors on the other side - cannot take in much energy, but charge and emit is on an extreme high level.

But both systems rely on big surface areas. And thats where the science for development can kick in. I expect a good progress in that with the nano-technology kicking in. Especially with the rise in surface modelling technologies. I mean, hey, in the meantime "printing" micrometer structures like electric connections is getting more and more "everyday business". If material technology keeps up with its pace and we get selfhealing extreme high Ohm resistor foils in sub-micrometer scales and more and more better electrolytes... then we will be able to narrow that gap between batteries and capacitors. And from then on... oh boy.

Especially i expect - based on the current development speed - room temperature supraconductors in the next 20 years. Metal-ion / Graphene structures give a good hint here on what to expect.

THEN, everytime you hit the brakes or just roll downhill, the power gained from induction brakes can be forcefed back into your powerblock. Sure, this technology is used already now, but most of what you get back dissipates unused as heat and you cannot charge accumulators that fast to use it within good proportions.

Seen from that, we live in interesting times. And if anybody wants to take a look, this picture shows the difference:

http://binrock.net/permanent/2008/0803_lhc/cern_superconductor.jpg

In the back: The old cable used at the old CERN Collider magnets. In front - the new supraconductor cables doing the same job.
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Re: the Chevy Volt (and other "plug-in" cars)
« Reply #77 on: 07 Jun 2009, 15:23 »

My car gets upwards of 40mpg and was built in 1973.  WHAT NOW *snapsnapsnap*
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Re: the Chevy Volt (and other "plug-in" cars)
« Reply #78 on: 07 Jun 2009, 15:46 »

room temperature supraconductors in the next 20 years.

Maybe, maybe not.  My father-in-law ran Zeta, the UK's first attempt at nuclear fusion in the 1950s.  He was pictured in the papers under the headline "Free electricity within ten years" - even allowing for press hyperbole, it didn't quite work out like that, did it.
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Re: the Chevy Volt (and other "plug-in" cars)
« Reply #79 on: 07 Jun 2009, 16:23 »

Cool. Thats one man i`d like to meet and sponsor a drink  :-D.

Yep. In this special case, you are absolutely right. The more about fusion we know, the more we know that it is in the far, far future for that. Every serious scientist will say now - based on all what we have learned through the previous fusion experiments in our "scientific virginity".... that selfsustaining, reliable fusion power plants are 50, if not 100 years in our future. We may light the candle now... but we cant keep the stellar fire burning.

Supraconductors, on the other hand... and supracapacitors... well, from what i have seen in some labs i visited... there is a whole 'nother pace. Compared with all the obstacles we run into while checking out what is possible with fusion power... there is a difference like Usain Bolt vs. my Grandma on the Dash Course. 20 years vs. 80-100 years.

It took us nearly 100 years from Crookes Tube to the CERN Collider. But only 20 years to get superconductors from 4 Kelvin to 200 K and going. Meissner and Ochsenfeld would be proud ^^.



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