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Author Topic: Michael Jackson Died, Guys  (Read 37240 times)

supersheep

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Re: Michael Jackson Died, Guys
« Reply #100 on: 27 Jun 2009, 06:08 »

There is a difference between saying something will be covered more by the news and should be covered more by the news, and 'newsworthy' certainly implies the second to me, not the first. Michael Jackson's death is obviously more likely to be covered, but saying it's more worthy of being covered is a value judgement I take issue with.
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Re: Michael Jackson Died, Guys
« Reply #101 on: 27 Jun 2009, 11:46 »

Well,

I was saying Jackson's death "should" receive coverage -- not because it was more important but because it was timelier and of interest to the kind of audience mainstream media caters to.

Stop value-judging me!! :police: :police: :police:
« Last Edit: 27 Jun 2009, 14:25 by Yunior »
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Re: Michael Jackson Died, Guys
« Reply #102 on: 27 Jun 2009, 12:33 »

Oh, OK then! I misinterpreted what you meant by should. I mean, there is an argument to be had about what the role of the media should be etcetera ad nauseaum, but this is not the place for it.
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Re: Michael Jackson Died, Guys
« Reply #103 on: 27 Jun 2009, 14:18 »

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Re: Michael Jackson Died, Guys
« Reply #104 on: 27 Jun 2009, 16:50 »

He was a big deal to people Philippe's age, too.

(I'm really, really sorry, I'll go back to my hole in the other thread now)
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Re: Michael Jackson Died, Guys
« Reply #105 on: 27 Jun 2009, 19:40 »

An apropos ditty to the media entitled "Michael Jackson Is Dead (You Fucking Hypocrites)"

Also, re: other coverage a la Iran, Tibet, Africa: This is the United States, where the extent of people giving a shit amounts to starting Facebook groups and retweeting.

Also, if you're concerned about Tibet, it may change your mind (or work you into a raging froth) to listen to or read this.
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Re: Michael Jackson Died, Guys
« Reply #106 on: 28 Jun 2009, 05:08 »

After watching a couple of Michael Jackson tribute programmes, I realise that I really like the Jackson 5. I hadn't known that the songs were by them, but I've always liked them.

I'm still not a huge fan of Michael's solo stuff but I have to agree that he was an incredible musician. I wish I'd taken a bit more interest when he was alive. Even getting het up about the alleged abuse would have been better than utter apathy to someone who it's increasingly apparent to me was pretty interesting.
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Re: Michael Jackson Died, Guys
« Reply #107 on: 28 Jun 2009, 10:39 »

I have a sudden urge to go out and learn to moonwalk well. This is being said in all seriousness.
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Re: Michael Jackson Died, Guys
« Reply #108 on: 28 Jun 2009, 11:22 »

I think I care more about Billy Mays' untimely death than MJs.
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Re: Michael Jackson Died, Guys
« Reply #109 on: 28 Jun 2009, 18:56 »

This is my source. Obvious caveats about reliability of sources - couldn't corroborate it.

http://trashselector.com/evan-chandler-i-lied-for-my-father-im-sorry-michael/
As Jordan pointed out, there are basic factual flaws in the article and there are no corroborative links (the "read more" article goes to a fanblog which has a similarly worded description of the events following the abuse allegation, but nothing about a recantation) However I would expect this sort of thing to actually happen if MJ did not in fact molest anyone. False accusations of sexual violence are very rare, and especially given the incredible scrutiny and invective hurled at the reported victims (even here in this thread) I would expect a false accusation to have been recanted by now. If no recantation occurs in the next few years I'll be fairly certain that something did in fact happen. The lack of conviction means just north of nothing considering sex crimes conviction rates in general, which are abysmal (and I don't think anybody would seriously argue that the only sex crimes taking place are the ones getting convictions) and when respected men engage in sex crimes in our culture, victims are blamed every time. In this case it's got to be about money, or the boy was gay and vindictively obsessed with MJ. You hear similar claims levied against rape victims every day.

From what I remember of his statements it seemed to me as though MJ didn't really understand the charges that were leveled against him and didn't understand why his affection towards children and his sleeping in the same bed with them could be construed as inappropriate. Given his candor I don't believe he really intended to do harm but he may have done so simply by his inability to perceive the appropriateness of his actions, but when it comes to things like this your intentions are irrelevant.. Molestation is a fairly broad category and it should be noted that there is a distinction between it and sexual abuse - molestation does not require actual sexual gratification to take place, but rather just the placing of a child in a situation he is uncomfortable with, be it unwanted touching or being undressed in the same room. It seems to me personally that these things could easily have happened at Neverland Ranch by the admission of the man himself. Sexual abuse like the sort MJ was accused of in '93 is not as easily corroborated with Jackson's own statements, but the thing about perpetrators of sexual violence is that there isn't a type of person that just wouldn't do it. Predators are not random black thugs, they are people in regular contact with victims. MJ certainly had ample opportunity to commit crimes, if he was inclined to. But again, if the statements aren't recanted then I'd err on the side of believing the accusers.
« Last Edit: 28 Jun 2009, 19:17 by KvP »
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Re: Michael Jackson Died, Guys
« Reply #110 on: 28 Jun 2009, 20:44 »

I think I care more about Billy Mays' untimely death than MJs.
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Re: Michael Jackson Died, Guys
« Reply #111 on: 29 Jun 2009, 00:45 »

"False accusations of sexual violence are very rare..."

Oh this is so untrue it almost hurts.
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Re: Michael Jackson Died, Guys
« Reply #112 on: 29 Jun 2009, 03:11 »

That is so wrong it hurts. In fact, it's that sort of attitude that is responsible for a LOT of the shit associated with poor treatment of abuse victims and low conviction rates.
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Re: Michael Jackson Died, Guys
« Reply #113 on: 29 Jun 2009, 05:01 »

Given his candor I don't believe he really intended to do harm but he may have done so simply by his inability to perceive the appropriateness of his actions

It is also possible that he did little or no harm, but that harm has been created or increased by outside observers telling  children they've been harmed.  This area is, as we know well, a minefield.
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Re: Michael Jackson Died, Guys
« Reply #114 on: 29 Jun 2009, 05:36 »

Paul, that's one of the first things I saw in one of my sister's old uni textbooks on psychology. Fascinating read, and that story proved pretty conclusively that firsthand testimony is not always accurate.

Still, we don't have any idea what happened, and we never will. He was acquitted through the justice system and is therefore innocent of these specific allegations of abuse. Fallibility of testimony and the justice system as a whole is another topic that can be saved for another thread in another subforum.
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Re: Michael Jackson Died, Guys
« Reply #115 on: 29 Jun 2009, 10:25 »

Quote
Oh this is so untrue it almost hurts.
It's usually somewhere around 5-7 percent. It's telling that when faced with those odds people tend to gamble on the off chances. Given a choice people would rather sympathize with a martyr than a victim.

That is so wrong it hurts. In fact, it's that sort of attitude that is responsible for a LOT of the shit associated with poor treatment of abuse victims and low conviction rates.
Could you explain that?

Quote
It is also possible that he did little or no harm, but that harm has been created or increased by outside observers telling  children they've been harmed.  This area is, as we know well, a minefield.
The studies I have (and linked to) put that scenario at about 1% of all reported cases. This is all quite similar in spirit to the slut-shaming that usually happens when rape is reported, since crimes cannot possibly occur to "disreputable" people. We would rather be safe in belittling possible victims than presume to discredit the reputation of possible offenders.
« Last Edit: 29 Jun 2009, 12:10 by KvP »
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Re: Michael Jackson Died, Guys
« Reply #116 on: 29 Jun 2009, 11:30 »

Jackson's children will go to Michael's parents.

Oh, this is just going to go absolutely swimmingly, I bet.
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Re: Michael Jackson Died, Guys
« Reply #117 on: 29 Jun 2009, 11:31 »

i wouldn't trust the guy around kids.
i'm not getting into this; all i'm saying is when shit reoccurs like that i lose respect for a dude regardless of his lawyer or mental state.

besides that, i've never truly understood the whole 'omigod a celebrity died' mentality. His music was okay, but i can name tons of other artists that would leave me more disgruntled with their untimely death.
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Re: Michael Jackson Died, Guys
« Reply #118 on: 29 Jun 2009, 12:13 »

Jackson's children will go to Michael's parents.

Oh, this is just going to go absolutely swimmingly, I bet.
From what I understand it was indicated in MJ's will that his children would be put in the custody of their grandmother. The childrens' mother has unofficially relinquished claims to the children but it was never 100% sealed, and so I think she'll sue for custody and a hefty support allowance.
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supersheep

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Re: Michael Jackson Died, Guys
« Reply #119 on: 29 Jun 2009, 12:23 »

Could you explain that?

I mean that this willingness to assume that false accusations of rape or abuse are far more common than they actually are is symptomatic of a bunch of attitudes in society that make it very tough for people to even come forward when they are raped or abused, let alone deal with the horrible shitstorm that is the entire justice process in rape and abuse cases.
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Candle

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Re: Michael Jackson Died, Guys
« Reply #120 on: 29 Jun 2009, 13:13 »

besides that, i've never truly understood the whole 'omigod a celebrity died' mentality. His music was okay, but i can name tons of other artists that would leave me more disgruntled with their untimely death.

I totally agree! I will only be sad once ever: When I die myself. I am the person I care most about, and so, no matter who dies they will never be on the top ladder rung, there's always going to be a step up, y'know?

what i mean is, i'm sure most of the people on this board weren't all rocking out to Michael Jackson circa 1980-whatever the fuck. it sucks that somebody died, but frankly, people die every waking moment and it's unfair to just assume that since this dude was a 'popular idol' he deserves that much  more attention.

i have no emotional attachment to MJ as it seems very few of the raving people going 'omigod mj is dead a blooh blooh blah blooh blah' had. before this shit, in the minds of most people the guy was a South Park joke; now there's facebook groups dedicated to blubbering about his death.

it's not that i have no feelings and feel 'who gives a shit that he died', it always sucks when a guy dies.
that said, i will be more upset when my dog dies.

all of this topped with the fact that there's a pretty good chance he did naughty shit with little kids makes me not really care.

cry from your heart people- not because that other guy is crying
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Re: Michael Jackson Died, Guys
« Reply #121 on: 29 Jun 2009, 14:58 »

Here is the thing: most people who die every day did not play a major role in shaping popular music. Even if you didn't like his music, you should still be able to appreciate his impact both in music as well as being one of the very first black musicians to get their music videos on MTV.
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Re: Michael Jackson Died, Guys
« Reply #122 on: 29 Jun 2009, 15:07 »

Jackson's children will go to Michael's parents.

Oh, this is just going to go absolutely swimmingly, I bet.

Word, considering that MJ's dad is half the reason he's as fucked up as he is...
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Re: Michael Jackson Died, Guys
« Reply #123 on: 29 Jun 2009, 15:09 »

half? you're being awfully nice. i'd say closer to 100%
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Re: Michael Jackson Died, Guys
« Reply #124 on: 29 Jun 2009, 15:09 »

I think (hope) that Jackson's parents are divorced and the children are going to the mother.
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Re: Michael Jackson Died, Guys
« Reply #125 on: 29 Jun 2009, 15:41 »

I'm not sure how much of a threat Joe Jackson will pose to his grandchildren, if they can convince him that he can't make money off of them.
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Re: Michael Jackson Died, Guys
« Reply #126 on: 29 Jun 2009, 16:33 »

Quote
It is also possible that he did little or no harm, but that harm has been created or increased by outside observers telling  children they've been harmed.
The studies I have (and linked to) put that scenario at about 1% of all reported cases.

Fair enough - if they're reporting about the actual scenario I described.  You see,
Quote
This is all quite similar in spirit to the slut-shaming that usually happens when rape is reported, since crimes cannot possibly occur to "disreputable" people. We would rather be safe in belittling possible victims than presume to discredit the reputation of possible offenders.
this is not  what I was musing about.  I was not thinking about the victims being unreliable reporters, but about the investigators interpreting what they hear in a way that suits their agenda and feeding that back into their treatment of the victim; that may be much harder to find figures on. I have seen this happen (in a different scenario), in a judgement made by no less a figure than Dame Butler-Sloss that turned out to be sadly wrong - but that is anecdotal, and so inadmissable. 
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Re: Michael Jackson Died, Guys
« Reply #127 on: 29 Jun 2009, 17:55 »

I wouldn't think that would happen very often, at least here. The measures implemented to safeguard the rights of the accused make the burden of proof with regard to sex crimes pretty extraordinary. A prosecutor who decides to go after a high-profile defendant is gambling. The vast majority of them regret it. Unambitious prosecutors tend to avoid cases that aren't 100% ironclad.
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Re: Michael Jackson Died, Guys
« Reply #128 on: 30 Jun 2009, 01:15 »

if they tend to avoid cases that aren't 100% ironclad then why did they go after him in 2005
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Re: Michael Jackson Died, Guys
« Reply #129 on: 30 Jun 2009, 01:20 »

also i mean i kind of hate to say this but when you are talking about one of the richest most famous most well-known dudes in pop culture you basically have to readjust literally everything to consider the implications of what that means, unfortunately this means you can't approach it the way you'd approach almost literally every other case
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Re: Michael Jackson Died, Guys
« Reply #130 on: 30 Jun 2009, 06:06 »

Yeah, that's fair. I swear to god though, if in 3 days the name "Michael Jackson" still appears in 8 of the 10 most-read articles on every news site ever, I'm gonna cut a bitch.

Happy 3 days later, dude.

Yeah yeah blah blah but guys, Thriller. It is the perfect pop album. Every song on there is at least top 5 single material. EVERY. SONG. That's unbelievable.
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Re: Michael Jackson Died, Guys
« Reply #131 on: 30 Jun 2009, 09:57 »

if they tend to avoid cases that aren't 100% ironclad then why did they go after him in 2005
Note the word "unambitious".

also i mean i kind of hate to say this but when you are talking about one of the richest most famous most well-known dudes in pop culture you basically have to readjust literally everything to consider the implications of what that means, unfortunately this means you can't approach it the way you'd approach almost literally every other case
I don't agree. You can replace "one of the richest most famous most well-known dudes in pop culture" with "the captain of the Varsity football team" or "the biggest mattress dealer in the tri-state area" or "a police officer" and the implication is the same - that this has to be about collecting money at the expense of a successful and respected man's reputation as well as the community at large's investment in that man (thus making the accusation a threat to all of us, not just the defendant), that a person's power and wealth is a good indicator of how we should view their capacity for committing crime, and that people who claim sexual abuse are so often the sort of people that would lie about it that we should be automatically suspect (and since conclusive proof is so rare, you're effectively advocating for disbelief by default). It plays into the idea that sex abusers have to be a certain type of person - poor, uneducated, possibly a minority, someone who wouldn't be targeted by gold-digging "sex abuse victims". In those cases we can be more sure, those are the only people we can be certain do these things. How much higher than that 1% do you think these false accusations corroborated by victim statements will go in relation to ever-more rich defendants? 5%? 25%? 50%?

If we're talking about factors that would play into false accusations, I would say that it was his open and unselfconscious interest in and affection for children that would have made them more likely, since his wealth and status were not exceptional, in America if not the world. Someone really really really really really should have prevented MJ from letting children reside in his residence unsupervised, in any case. The parents should have refused (I can't remember, did he pay them a stipend for the stays?) but more importantly Jackson should never had been allowed to fulfill his sad desires, for his safety or for the safety of his guests.
« Last Edit: 30 Jun 2009, 10:47 by KvP »
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Re: Michael Jackson Died, Guys
« Reply #132 on: 30 Jun 2009, 10:37 »

Thriller. It is the perfect pop album. Every song on there is at least top 5 single material. EVERY. SONG. That's unbelievable.

I'll take Rumours, thank you.
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Re: Michael Jackson Died, Guys
« Reply #133 on: 30 Jun 2009, 11:48 »

Yeah, that's fair. I swear to god though, if in 3 days the name "Michael Jackson" still appears in 8 of the 10 most-read articles on every news site ever, I'm gonna cut a bitch.

Happy 3 days later, dude.

At least I warned everybody.

OKAY NEWS PEOPLE, HE IS FUCKING DEAD, HE AIN'T GONNA GET ANY DEADER, OR ANY LESS DEAD, SO MAYBE I THINK WE SHOULD LET HIS CORPSE COOL THE FUCK OFF OR SOMETHING.

Continue your discussion on the note that "Thriller" wasn't 100% Top 5 material, I mean shit I can hardly listen to 'Pretty Young Thing' (oh god please don't make a joke you guys).
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Re: Michael Jackson Died, Guys
« Reply #134 on: 30 Jun 2009, 13:34 »

I actually really enjoy PYT.
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Re: Michael Jackson Died, Guys
« Reply #135 on: 30 Jun 2009, 13:42 »

Rumours is one of my favourite ever records but I don't think it had the same kind of crossover success.

It's similar in that each song on the album ended up getting a ton of airplay, the record itself is in pretty much everyone's collection, and it's the most widely known by that artist.

Aside from album sales (that would go to Dark Side, obviously), Rumours is the closest the 70's had to Thriller.
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Re: Michael Jackson Died, Guys
« Reply #136 on: 30 Jun 2009, 14:13 »

thread tl;dr

So Farrah Fawcett dies and goes to heaven. God says, "Farrah, you've lead such an enriching life, filling so many people with joy. I'll grant you one wish now that you're dead." Farrah thinks about it and says, "thanks, God, that's really nice of you. I just want all the children of the world to be protected." God says, "Ok" and kills Michael Jackson.

What were Michael Jackson's last words?
"Take me to the children's hospital!"

What are Michael Jackson, Farrah Fawcett, Ed McMahon and Billy Mayes getting for Christmas?
Patrick Swayze
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Re: Michael Jackson Died, Guys
« Reply #137 on: 30 Jun 2009, 14:15 »

Boo.
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Re: Michael Jackson Died, Guys
« Reply #138 on: 30 Jun 2009, 14:46 »

I don't agree. You can replace "one of the richest most famous most well-known dudes in pop culture" with "the captain of the Varsity football team" or "the biggest mattress dealer in the tri-state area" or "a police officer" and the implication is the same - that this has to be about collecting money at the expense of a successful and respected man's reputation as well as the community at large's investment in that man (thus making the accusation a threat to all of us, not just the defendant), that a person's power and wealth is a good indicator of how we should view their capacity for committing crime, and that people who claim sexual abuse are so often the sort of people that would lie about it that we should be automatically suspect (and since conclusive proof is so rare, you're effectively advocating for disbelief by default).

No it doesn't because none of those people are the Michael Jackson who performed Off the Wall, Thriller and Bad. He is the only person to ever have done this. He's pretty much the only dude who moved 109 million copies of one record by virtue of that record being really fucking awesome. Everything else you're talking about is way down the ladder. Did the captain of the Varsity football team shoot the music video for "Beat It"? He didn't. Did the biggest mattress dealer in the tri-state area come up with the moonwalk? He didn't. Did a police officer find startling early fame as one of the dudes who sang "ABC"? He didn't. There have been more Popes than there have been Michael Jacksons. There have been more U.S. Presidents than there have been Michael Jacksons. Think about that for a second. I wouldn't say this about anyone else because anyone else is not Michael Jackson. That's what I meant when I typed that. I wouldn't be going out on a limb and typing massive defenses of those people because they aren't Michael Jackson.

Nobody should "automatically suspect" anyone who accuses their pastor or their teacher or their football coach or their lawyer or their doctor or whatever of lying because those people don't have Neverland Ranch, you know? Besides, those people weren't the sort of figure that Michael Jackson is. Those people didn't expressly want to recapture a youth they simultaneously never had and never left by surrounding themselves with children. Far be it from me to speculate or whatever but the dude wasn't interested in hanging out with kids because it put him on a power trip, he hung out with kids because he effectively lived a prolonged adolescence in an attempt to live out the childhood he felt he deserved. What's been documented of his life over the last twenty years is pretty solid proof of this.

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It plays into the idea that sex abusers have to be a certain type of person - poor, uneducated, possibly a minority, someone who wouldn't be targeted by gold-digging "sex abuse victims". In those cases we can be more sure, those are the only people we can be certain do these things. How much higher than that 1% do you think these false accusations corroborated by victim statements will go in relation to ever-more rich defendants? 5%? 25%? 50%?

No it doesn't because like I said pretty much everyone else existed on a completely different scale than Jackson? It's not so much that he, by virtue of being rich and powerful, is untouchable; instead, it's that he, by virtue of being the Michael Jackson whose life has been comparatively well-documented over twenty years, at the very least seemed to have completely different motives for hanging out with these kids, motives confirmed by people like Macaulay Culkin that had spent time with him as children.

And again I hate to be the dude who says this but is it entirely impossible for Jackson's accuser to be in that 1%, the one case in one hundred that was a false accusation? It's a lot more nuanced than simple statistics but the simple statistics suggest that while there's a slim possibility there is nevertheless a possibility, a possibility corroborated by the fact that he was found not guilty. Does that 1% have to happen exclusively to the poor uneducated minorities?

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If we're talking about factors that would play into false accusations, I would say that it was his open and unselfconscious interest in and affection for children that would have made them more likely, since his wealth and status were not exceptional, in America if not the world. Someone really really really really really should have prevented MJ from letting children reside in his residence unsupervised, in any case. The parents should have refused (I can't remember, did he pay them a stipend for the stays?) but more importantly Jackson should never had been allowed to fulfill his sad desires, for his safety or for the safety of his guests.

His love for children and his wealth and status weren't mutually exclusive factors at any point. And, once again, his wealth was not acceptable but his status as the world's only Michael Jackson who performed Off the Wall, Thriller and Bad was.

For any other case this speculation wouldn't be happening. I wouldn't be typing this argument for anyone else; instead, I'd be letting the evidence present itself and opine once the case was concluded. I'm not a judge. The 2005 case concluded, though, and it concluded with a verdict based not by absence of evidence that there was wrongdoing but testimony that there was in fact no wrongdoing, testimony provided by other kids who could have been potential victims. When I said "literally" up there, I meant it. That wasn't hyperbole. Whether you like it or not, the insane amount of errata surrounding the case meant that the allegations against Jackson - like almost all of the events of his weird, tragic life - were a totally unique case of the sort that really didn't happen before him and hasn't happened since. And because of the factors that informed his weird, tragic life, he was acquitted.

You can say all you like that Jackson's wasn't a unique case. You'll be wrong.
« Last Edit: 30 Jun 2009, 14:50 by Johnny C »
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Re: Michael Jackson Died, Guys
« Reply #139 on: 30 Jun 2009, 14:49 »

MJ jokes

Dude you got the wrong thread

Also Johnny, I don't know how much better anybody could've put it. A salute to you, sir.
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Johnny C

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Re: Michael Jackson Died, Guys
« Reply #140 on: 30 Jun 2009, 14:51 »

I put it better earlier when it was two glib sentences and I much prefer that format to the Massive Wall Of Text Written On The Internet.
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Re: Michael Jackson Died, Guys
« Reply #141 on: 30 Jun 2009, 16:34 »

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No it doesn't because none of those people are the Michael Jackson who performed Off the Wall, Thriller and Bad. He is the only person to ever have done this. He's pretty much the only dude who moved 109 million copies of one record by virtue of that record being really fucking awesome. Everything else you're talking about is way down the ladder. Did the captain of the Varsity football team shoot the music video for "Beat It"? He didn't. Did the biggest mattress dealer in the tri-state area come up with the moonwalk? He didn't. Did a police officer find startling early fame as one of the dudes who sang "ABC"? He didn't. There have been more Popes than there have been Michael Jacksons. There have been more U.S. Presidents than there have been Michael Jacksons. Think about that for a second. I wouldn't say this about anyone else because anyone else is not Michael Jackson. That's what I meant when I typed that. I wouldn't be going out on a limb and typing massive defenses of those people because they aren't Michael Jackson.
You're not getting it. I agree with you that Michael Jackson was Michael Jackson, and that he has done extraordinary things, but you say that as though it means that puts him in a different reality, as though this is some objective thing that makes him special. In the grand scheme of human behavior Michael Jackson was really not special at all. He was just as fucked up as everybody else. He had drug problems just like a mere mortal. He had family issues, just like a mere mortal. He was a person capable of just as much as anybody else, he just happened to achieve relative success. You seem to be saying that he was famous all his life and was successful through most of his life. So fucking what? Really. I can't figure out if you're trying to say here that Michael Jackson was so super goddamn successful he couldn't possibly have hurt anyone, or that he was so exceptionally famous that the chances of false allegations of sexual abuse by a minor go from 1% to some number we would be feel safe betting on. Either way you're making a stunning leap of faith.

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Nobody should "automatically suspect" anyone who accuses their pastor or their teacher or their football coach or their lawyer or their doctor or whatever of lying because those people don't have Neverland Ranch, you know?Besides, those people weren't the sort of figure that Michael Jackson is. Those people didn't expressly want to recapture a youth they simultaneously never had and never left by surrounding themselves with children. Far be it from me to speculate or whatever but the dude wasn't interested in hanging out with kids because it put him on a power trip, he hung out with kids because he effectively lived a prolonged adolescence in an attempt to live out the childhood he felt he deserved. What's been documented of his life over the last twenty years is pretty solid proof of this.
 
No? How does Michael Jackson's ranch make him less likely to commit a crime than any of these other people? Again you're insinuating that it was his wealth that attracted gold diggers, but there are all sorts of rich people, richer people than MJ, who own whole Caribbean Islands. Are they more likely to be falsely accused than Michael Jackson? They'd have to be, they've got even more money than he did. Are you saying that they falsely accused him to get a slice of his fame? That's the only thing that would set him apart from other targets of gold-digging evil children, but it doesn't seem very plausible, especially since they'll forever be known as the people who ruined Michael Jackson's career, hated by millions.
 
As far as Michael Jackson's psyche is concerned, all I think we can safely say is that it was clearly severely damaged. The "missing childhood" angle is an extremely prevalent pop psych verdict on MJ but I can't say with any certainty that it's actually what was going on with him, even if he said so himself, precisely because he was so damaged. It was probably much, much more complicated than that, and so I can't speak to Jackson's motives as you do.

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No it doesn't because like I said pretty much everyone else existed on a completely different scale than Jackson? It's not so much that he, by virtue of being rich and powerful, is untouchable; instead, it's that he, by virtue of being the Michael Jackson whose life has been comparatively well-documented over twenty years, at the very least seemed to have completely different motives for hanging out with these kids, motives confirmed by people like Macaulay Culkin that had spent time with him as children.

For any other case this speculation wouldn't be happening. I wouldn't be typing this argument for anyone else; instead, I'd be letting the evidence present itself and opine once the case was concluded. I'm not a judge. The 2005 case concluded, though, and it concluded with a verdict based not by absence of evidence that there was wrongdoing but testimony that there was in fact no wrongdoing, testimony provided by other kids who could have been potential victims.
Child molesters, as a general rule, do not molest all children that they come into contact with, or even all children that they could molest without getting caught. You know rapists often have significant others, who will swear up and down that the man they're in a relationship would never in a million years take advantage of anyone? It's a really mind-blowing concept, I know, but if it weren't true then we would never have to worry about sexual assault at all, because perpetrators would be easily identifiable. But they aren't easily identifiable, they almost never are, and that's what makes them so fucking terrifying. Instead of actually coming to terms with this we teach women and children to fear haggard-looking old men wandering the streets. And when the suburban dad or the pastor or the famous pop star is accused of molestation it's so fucking hard to reconcile what we're taught about rapists and child molesters, and how the accused don't match up to that. You're right in that, if you really look, there's been very little from his very public life to suggest that he resembled the "child molester" archetype. He seemed like a sweet, gentle, delicate man. But you know what that means, really? Absolutely nothing, because there's no such thing as a fucking "child molester" archetype. If Michael Jackson was a child molester, the only people who would know anything about it are Michael Jackson and the victims.

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When I said "literally" up there, I meant it. That wasn't hyperbole. Whether you like it or not, the insane amount of errata surrounding the case meant that the allegations against Jackson - like almost all of the events of his weird, tragic life - were a totally unique case of the sort that really didn't happen before him and hasn't happened since. And because of the factors that informed his weird, tragic life, he was acquitted.

You can say all you like that Jackson's wasn't a unique case. You'll be wrong.
Every case is unique in the nitty gritty details of it but in general each type of crime has a basic set of characteristics which make it what it is. There's no really unique murder - there are creative murders, and murders done out of passion or fear or whatever, but you know, somebody got killed intentionally in all cases. Michael Jackson's case was a child molestation case. We can go on and on about his life and how unique it was, and I'm not saying it wasn't, I'm saying that doesn't matter. So what if Michael Jackson led a unique and sad life? All this talk about how this is a "unique case" is really heading towards a single intended goal - to paint things such that if we did accept that he molested children, he would be the real victim, thus making him a blameless victim in any case and preventing us from ever feeling sick about how we felt about him in the past. And he was probably a victim of something to some degree, but if he did it he was not a victim of the crime he was accused, there were greater victims who deserved greater consideration.

I'll say this though - If I were a victim of sexual assault and I saw the way the MJ saga played out, under no circumstances would I report it to the police.
« Last Edit: 30 Jun 2009, 16:45 by KvP »
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Re: Michael Jackson Died, Guys
« Reply #142 on: 01 Jul 2009, 04:47 »

Poor old Jacko. Maybe he'll get some peace now, anyway.
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Re: Michael Jackson Died, Guys
« Reply #143 on: 01 Jul 2009, 07:16 »

John, you seem to be suggesting that Michael Jackson's combined wealth, fame, popularity and open sleepovers with pre-pubescent children made him no more likely to be accused of child molestation than the average person. Nobody is saying that those circumstances made him less likely to commit a crime, but they DID significantly increase the likelihood of a false allegation.
The way I see it, Michael Jackson, for the people who accused him, was the easiest target in the world. He was reachable and had a strange reputation that made it easy to accuse him of child molestation. Sure, they could have accused any rich guy, but no other rich guy was Michael Jackson, significantly lowering the chances of a successful pay out. There was a level of oppurtunity that richer men than Michael Jackson did not present.

Being Michael Jackson might not have made him less likely to commit a crime than anybody else (though I believe it did), but being Michael Jackson did make him far more likely to be one of those falsely accused. People who accused Michael Jackson of child molestation had a LOT to gain. Though evidence strongly suggests that Evan Chandler fabricated the entire thing, he has spent the past 15 years living in mansions. He accomplished this despite police closing the investigation, citing a lack of evidence.
I'd rather not begin to produce evidence from the investigations to support these arguments because it will turn into a debate about whether or not he did it, but his circumstances were definitely far more unique than you seem willing to believe.

Think about it. If you're going to falsely accuse somebody of molestation in the hopes of a massive payout, who do you target? Me? You? The President of the United States? Or Michael Jackson?
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Re: Michael Jackson Died, Guys
« Reply #144 on: 01 Jul 2009, 07:40 »

I don't see how exactly you could falsely accuse yourself.
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Re: Michael Jackson Died, Guys
« Reply #145 on: 01 Jul 2009, 08:56 »

I know, I just thought the argument was getting a bit too serious business for the thread for respecting his memory.
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Re: Michael Jackson Died, Guys
« Reply #146 on: 01 Jul 2009, 10:39 »

Bill Bailey invented the moon walk, look it up on youtube under "QI origins of the moonwalk".

I must admit I don't really feel that much for him, his family and the people who loved his music yes I feel sorry for them and he undoubtably changed a great deal of musical history and certainly helped to define the sound of a good decade, possibly more. I was astonished at the out pouring of grief, but then I realised this man was the defining characteristic of some peoples lives, not now and it may not even have lasted that long, but it makes them realise how far they have come or fallen since they first heard one of his songs. Personally I will probably feel the same the day brandon flowers dies, because Hot Fuzz was my first CD, it defined me and my outlook for a little while.

Sorry, just my thoughts.
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Re: Michael Jackson Died, Guys
« Reply #147 on: 01 Jul 2009, 10:45 »

Think about it. If you're going to falsely accuse somebody of molestation in the hopes of a massive payout, who do you target? Me? You? The President of the United States? Or Michael Jackson?


there was also that part where he invited kids over to his giant kid-luring theme park with the intention of closed-door slumber parties.
« Last Edit: 01 Jul 2009, 10:48 by Candle »
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Re: Michael Jackson Died, Guys
« Reply #148 on: 01 Jul 2009, 11:03 »

Thanks for reiterating my point.
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Re: Michael Jackson Died, Guys
« Reply #149 on: 01 Jul 2009, 11:27 »

John, you seem to be suggesting that Michael Jackson's combined wealth, fame, popularity and open sleepovers with pre-pubescent children made him no more likely to be accused of child molestation than the average person. Nobody is saying that those circumstances made him less likely to commit a crime, but they DID significantly increase the likelihood of a false allegation.
The way I see it, Michael Jackson, for the people who accused him, was the easiest target in the world. He was reachable and had a strange reputation that made it easy to accuse him of child molestation. Sure, they could have accused any rich guy, but no other rich guy was Michael Jackson, significantly lowering the chances of a successful pay out. There was a level of oppurtunity that richer men than Michael Jackson did not present.

Being Michael Jackson might not have made him less likely to commit a crime than anybody else (though I believe it did), but being Michael Jackson did make him far more likely to be one of those falsely accused. People who accused Michael Jackson of child molestation had a LOT to gain. Though evidence strongly suggests that Evan Chandler fabricated the entire thing, he has spent the past 15 years living in mansions. He accomplished this despite police closing the investigation, citing a lack of evidence.
I'd rather not begin to produce evidence from the investigations to support these arguments because it will turn into a debate about whether or not he did it, but his circumstances were definitely far more unique than you seem willing to believe.

Think about it. If you're going to falsely accuse somebody of molestation in the hopes of a massive payout, who do you target? Me? You? The President of the United States? Or Michael Jackson?
I suppose I would have targeted Michael Jackson. Also, if I were to date any celebrity I suppose I would date Maggie Gyllenhaal. The possibilities of both those things happening successfully rely on an amazing run of luck and coincidence. Y'all seem to be conceiving of wealth and privilege as these incredible weaknesses against false accusation, but it seems to me as though wealth and privilege are quite effective barriers against placing oneself in a position where your claims would be credible, just as Maggie's fame makes it nigh-impossible for me to be in a position to ask her out without looking like a lunatic. Perhaps there was an application process to stay at the Neverland Ranch, which would have allowed me, having decided beforehand to falsely accuse, to gain access, but in the Evan Chandler case I do believe it was Jackson who approached the Chandlers about a stay at the Ranch. If the Chandlers were looking to falsely accuse Michael Jackson, whether they conspired to beforehand or were opportunistic, the stars really aligned for them.

It might be true that Jackson's willingness to bring children unsupervised into his house to stay for extended periods of time and his wealth create a unique opportunity for exploitation. But it's bitterly hilarious to me that it's either been dismissed or not thought of that Jackson's willingness to bring children unsupervised into his house to stay for extended periods of time makes him a prime candidate for perpetrating child molestation. If it was anyone else (well I guess anyone not as rich and famous as Michael Jackson) that one fact would be highly, highly suspect. But the fact that Michael Jackson a. Made Thriller b. Was super-famous c. Seemed like such a sweet guy d. Apparently didn't molest every child he ever boarded and e. Never confessed seems to make it more likely to most that he was falsely accused by best-paydirt-in-the-world striking gold diggers than his being an offender despite that fact. In that people are all-too willing to accuse reported victims of being liars, Michael Jackson's case is not unique in the slightest.

So did MJ's situation make false allegations more likely than in most cases? Of course. It also made the chances of the allegations being true higher. So if I were to be extorting anybody, it'd be Michael Jackson. On the other hand, if I were a child molester, I would really love to be in Michael Jackson's situation circa 1993.
« Last Edit: 01 Jul 2009, 11:42 by KvP »
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