Topic: Will Wil and Penelope's relationship last? (Read 29391 times)

LunchBagArt · « **Reply #50 on:** 14 Jul 2009, 22:19 »

Sponging off your friends or lovers is simply unattractive behavior, male or female.

dcnblues · « **Reply #51 on:** 15 Jul 2009, 11:20 »

Ugh. I had liked Penny thinking she was smart. But "Look on the bright side, maybe [dreary manual labor will] provide you with some inspiration for your poetry." is the dumbest thing she's ever said. It may also be the dumbest attitude in the world.

danman · « **Reply #52 on:** 15 Jul 2009, 11:35 »

Why? Many great poets (in my country) wrote about workers, their plight and the values they create. Many of them worked in industry at some point of their lives.

benji · « **Reply #53 on:** 15 Jul 2009, 11:42 »

Labor, especially farm labor, is a pretty solid theme in American poetry as well.

dcnblues · « **Reply #54 on:** 15 Jul 2009, 12:51 »

Then it should be easy to list all the great American poets who were able to build a lasting body of work and who had to work as farmers to support themselves. Go ahead.

If you want a list of great artists, on the other hand, who had some form of patronage / inheritance / support, there are plenty of reference books on painters, poets, and writers available. Check under the heading of 'most.'

As well, Penny gives Will grief ("Jesus Fucking Christ, Will...") for 'not living up to his full potential' while working at a coffee shop? Cast out the beam out of thine own eye, toots.

Is it cold in here? · « **Reply #55 on:** 15 Jul 2009, 13:22 »

Carl Sandburg. If my degree were in English instead of physics, I suspect I could name more.

Good point about Pennelope. Even though her criticism was that Wil failed at being self-supporting, something that she manages to do, it's a glaring fact that she has (presumably) a college degree (has this ever been covered explicitly?) but is a barista idly leafing through classified ads with unpursued ideas about working in publishing. Maybe there's some projection on her part.

nichidani · « **Reply #56 on:** 15 Jul 2009, 13:57 »

you know, i'd never thought of that but you guys make a good point. pen is a little under-accomplished to be judging wil, or anyone really.

at least she's doing better than him, though that's saying very little.

i'd say the only character in their age range that has a career rather than working is dora, since she owns the coffee shop.
and sven, who sells shitty songs for millions.
... and whatever it is steve does? o_O

dcnblues · « **Reply #57 on:** 15 Jul 2009, 15:11 »

Carl Sandburg began his writing career as a journalist for the Chicago Daily News. In other words, he was one of the lucky few who find a job doing what they like (writing, in his case). That's great for an artist, when it happens. Getting paid to train yourself in your medium is friggin great when it happens. Ask Jeph.

My argument is that, if you're someone who feels drawn to poetry, you're SOL in that regard. And that you don't deserve contempt for not wanting to work some shitty job.

The best counter-argument would be Nietzschean,

Quote

Nietzsche believes that human strength and wisdom is elevated in direct proportion to the depths of human suffering and the overcoming of suffering. Direct experience of the harsh and impersonal nature of the universe leads to a unique understanding of reality that sets a person above and beyond the comparatively shallow belief systems and illusionary hopes of the mass of humanity (the herd)...

For Nietzsche, suffering makes one “hard.” If it is true that that which does not kill us makes us stronger, then it is equally true that by overcoming suffering, by facing it squarely and by not turning toward such overworn tools as “faith” and “hope”, we become something greater than what we were without suffering. “And if your hardness does not wish to flash and cut and cut through, how can you one day create with me? For creators are hard. And it must seem blessedness to you to impress your hand on millennia as on wax, blessedness to write on the will of millennia as on bronze – harder than bronze, nobler than bronze. Only the noblest is altogether hard. This new tablet, O my brothers, I place over you: become hard!” (Thus Spoke Zarathustra: Third Part - 1884).
http://www.angelfire.com/ga/wkb/nietzschesuffer.html

but that's not what Penny is saying. She is unaware that working some crap job full time to support oneself will suck your creativity into that job. There is no greater indictment of modern society than someone waking at three in the morning, and realizing their subconscious creative energy has been vacuumed up by office politics or the need to pay the heating bill.

I still think Aristotle nailed it. All paid jobs absorb and degrade the mind.

Is it cold in here? · « **Reply #58 on:** 15 Jul 2009, 15:54 »

Emerson said something to the effect "The poet does not dig", in reaction against an idea that a well-rounded scholar should have experience of actual work. So it's not just Aristotle.

On Carl Sandburg, he was a long way from sponging off his parents and avoiding manual work:

Quote from: wikipedia

At the age of thirteen he left school and began driving a milk wagon. He subsequently became a bricklayer and a farm laborer on the wheat plains of Kansas.[1] After an interval spent at Lombard College in Galesburg,[2] he became a hotel servant in Denver, then a coal-heaver in Omaha.

Langston Hughes apparently wasn't injured by working as a busboy.

Does being supported by others work for Wil, given what we've seen of his poetry?

nichidani · « **Reply #59 on:** 15 Jul 2009, 18:43 »

Quote from: Is it cold in here? on 15 Jul 2009, 15:54

Does being supported by others work for Wil, given what we've seen of his poetry?

hell to tha nawwwwwww.

SJCrew · « **Reply #60 on:** 17 Jul 2009, 15:00 »

Quote from: friend on 07 Jul 2009, 19:20

penelope is abusive woman, i want to punch her in the liver

I'd rather uppercut her in the ovaries. Her personality disgusts me. The only thing I like about her is that she's cute.

Quote from: Is it cold in here? on 09 Jul 2009, 23:00

I just noticed something. Back in 1259, Sven told Wil that it was just infatuation.

Of course it is. How do you fall in love with someone you've spent no substantial amount of time with? Wil just looked at her and said, "That's my woman!" Love at first sight is bullshit.

LeeC · « **Reply #61 on:** 19 Jul 2009, 11:06 »

Based on what we know of Wil, I dont think he has ever been in a relationship. This is all new for him (or seems to be) I think he will do what ever penpen will tell him. he will become a doormat.

for fear of loosing her.

Juniper Jade · « **Reply #62 on:** 19 Jul 2009, 13:21 »

I think Wil's been in a relationship before, in #1434 he mentions his sex life: "It's been quite some time since I've engaged in that particular activity." So he has been with at least one girl before and Wil doesn't seem the type to be in just physical relationship where it was only about sex, he would be with someone who he "loves." The question is if he was actually in love with said girl(s) or just infatuated like it seems to be with Pen.

KeepACoolin · « **Reply #63 on:** 23 Jul 2009, 15:27 »

Quote from: dcnblues on 15 Jul 2009, 15:11

Carl Sandburg began his writing career as a journalist for the Chicago Daily News. In other words, he was one of the lucky few who find a job doing what they like (writing, in his case). That's great for an artist, when it happens. Getting paid to train yourself in your medium is friggin great when it happens. Ask Jeph.

My argument is that, if you're someone who feels drawn to poetry, you're SOL in that regard. And that you don't deserve contempt for not wanting to work some shitty job.

The best counter-argument would be Nietzschean,

Quote
Nietzsche believes that human strength and wisdom is elevated in direct proportion to the depths of human suffering and the overcoming of suffering. Direct experience of the harsh and impersonal nature of the universe leads to a unique understanding of reality that sets a person above and beyond the comparatively shallow belief systems and illusionary hopes of the mass of humanity (the herd)...

For Nietzsche, suffering makes one “hard.” If it is true that that which does not kill us makes us stronger, then it is equally true that by overcoming suffering, by facing it squarely and by not turning toward such overworn tools as “faith” and “hope”, we become something greater than what we were without suffering. “And if your hardness does not wish to flash and cut and cut through, how can you one day create with me? For creators are hard. And it must seem blessedness to you to impress your hand on millennia as on wax, blessedness to write on the will of millennia as on bronze – harder than bronze, nobler than bronze. Only the noblest is altogether hard. This new tablet, O my brothers, I place over you: become hard!” (Thus Spoke Zarathustra: Third Part - 1884).
http://www.angelfire.com/ga/wkb/nietzschesuffer.html

but that's not what Penny is saying. She is unaware that working some crap job full time to support oneself will suck your creativity into that job. There is no greater indictment of modern society than someone waking at three in the morning, and realizing their subconscious creative energy has been vacuumed up by office politics or the need to pay the heating bill.

I still think Aristotle nailed it. All paid jobs absorb and degrade the mind.

First of all, Nietzsche sucks. I said it. I think you would have a hard time proving that all "creators" are hard: Socrates, Plato, Aristotle- these were free citizens of Athens, which generally meant a pretty easy lifestyle, and yet they produced most of the foundational thought of western philosophy. And I refuse to believe that faith and hope are "crutches." It's very much as though Nietzsche was advocating training oneself without any goal in mind- like running psychical laps without having a race in mind.

Secondly, I think it's absurd to say unequivocally that paid jobs degrade the mind. Ted Kooser was Poet Laureate, but he spent a lot of his adult life working at an insurance company.

Surgoshan · « **Reply #64 on:** 23 Jul 2009, 15:30 »

Citizen of Athens = easy lifestyle. You do realize that Plato, Aristotle, and Socrates all marched to war multiple times in their lives? And that as a result of such duty they, along with other free citizens, made it a point to regularly practice the arts of war (marching in formation, etc)? Even in as remarkable a city as Athens, life in the Bronze Age could only be relatively easy, never 'pretty' easy.

Although that just makes your overall point all the more correct. Hard work <> worse artist.

Delirium · « **Reply #65 on:** 24 Jul 2009, 15:46 »

Quote from: danman on 15 Jul 2009, 11:35

Why? Many great poets (in my country) wrote about workers, their plight and the values they create. Many of them worked in industry at some point of their lives.

Let me guess, you live in some interchangable ex-Soviet country?

KeepACoolin · « **Reply #66 on:** 24 Jul 2009, 16:57 »

Quote from: Surgoshan on 23 Jul 2009, 15:30

Citizen of Athens = easy lifestyle. You do realize that Plato, Aristotle, and Socrates all marched to war multiple times in their lives? And that as a result of such duty they, along with other free citizens, made it a point to regularly practice the arts of war (marching in formation, etc)? Even in as remarkable a city as Athens, life in the Bronze Age could only be relatively easy, never 'pretty' easy.

Although that just makes your overall point all the more correct. Hard work <> worse artist.

Ease of life is always relative. Compared to, say, the helots of Sparta, free Athenians had it incredibly easy. But, in this instance, I mean to discuss Nietzsche's idea of a "hard creator," which I think differs slightly from an artist in general.

Blackjoker · « **Reply #67 on:** 30 Jul 2009, 05:07 »

Just to make a side comment, being paid to do something doesn't degrade the mind. However, there is an argument that doing something for money can tarnish the final product. If I want to sell my artwork, whatever it is, I have to make it sellable, I have to make it attractive to the largest number of people or I have to make it for a particular patron who will dictate terms to me. The great creators had time to create and study, but that also somewhat ignores the fact that many great artists and creators were fairly unappreciated in their times. Socrates was wealthy and had a family that he, presumably, supported with vast wealth he had independantly, given that he also served as a soldier and had purchased his own hoplite armor and weaponry there is something to be said for him being wealthy from the get-go.

To the main topic, I think the question of whether it will last or not has a lot to do with how much both characters grow as well as how much the rest of the cast finds out. Sven knows some of this, for example, but the more...acidic members of the cast do not know of Wills situation. Faye could have a field day with this as could Dora, and there is also the point that Sven seemed to have a certain amount of scorn for Will as seen in some of their other exchanges.

sofiabailote · « **Reply #68 on:** 04 Aug 2009, 08:48 »

Was there ever a relationship?? The way I see it, she had a romantic vision of Wil during his "journey", fueled by his letters (remember she reads crappy erotic chick lit, so the letter must have an enormous appeal to her) then he came back, she fucked him thus getting him out of the system, learned about his loser status and told him to shove off. (not sure she did, but if she didn't, she should have)
Anyone here remembers Adrian Mole?? it was a book and later a TV series character about a boy who wanted to be a poet but was a presumptuous and pompous ass, never really accomplishing anything... That's what Wil always reminds me of.

Juniper Jade · « **Reply #69 on:** 04 Aug 2009, 09:26 »

I don't think Wil is pompous at all, in fact I see him as being really insecure about a lot of things including his writing and especially being with a woman. He pretty much is a loser, but Pen is helping him find a job and sticking by him. Yes, the relationship was filled with nothing but delusions during Wil's trip and now reality is crashing down on them and it'll be interesting to see how it ends up.

Is it cold in here? · « **Reply #70 on:** 04 Aug 2009, 12:50 »

1143 and 1208 were, if not pompous, at least the verbal equivalent of wearing a tuxedo to McDonald's.

That was a good insight about how Pennelope's girl-porn habit interacted with Wil's letters.

sofiabailote · « **Reply #71 on:** 06 Aug 2009, 17:51 »

I was re-reading strip 1447, where Penelope is asking him about his job hunt and he literally says to her that he's trying to avoid "...that sort of dreary manual labor." when she suggests he go wash dishes or wait tables... I mean, she works in a coffee shop, so she actually DOES that sort of dreary manual labor. Who, except an absolute asshole, would say that to his barista girlfriend, while living off her???

Juniper Jade · « **Reply #72 on:** 06 Aug 2009, 18:05 »

Well... it IS dreary manual labor. If a boy said that to me when I was catering I would only agree with him. Work like that sucks ass and should be avoided if you can help it.

LeeC · « **Reply #73 on:** 06 Aug 2009, 19:00 »

am I crazy to be quitting my boring sit at a desk job witht he government to go back to school, meaning I'll have to work a dull manual labor job again?

nichidani · « **Reply #74 on:** 07 Aug 2009, 07:00 »

kind of.

government desk jobs, and really most desk jobs, consist of mostly getting paid to pay bejeweled and read webcomics. i would rather work my boring-ass desk job than anything involving manual labor. then again, i guess i wouldn't want to work it forever, and that is why i'm in college for nursing.

LeeC · « **Reply #75 on:** 07 Aug 2009, 12:57 »

Quote from: nichidani on 07 Aug 2009, 07:00

kind of.

government desk jobs, and really most desk jobs, consist of mostly getting paid to pay bejeweled and read webcomics. i would rather work my boring-ass desk job than anything involving manual labor. then again, i guess i wouldn't want to work it forever, and that is why i'm in college for nursing.

haha exaclty. I dont want to do this forever so I am going back to school. Im 23, no debt, no kids, nothing tieing me down so now is the best time to go back. im only making 40k a year. I could do way better but I am tired of the tech field and want to do anthropology, maybe get a real government job (currently just a contractor

).

wargrafix · « **Reply #76 on:** 08 Aug 2009, 08:58 »

as long as it doesn't involve working for Korean firms. The will work you to death

Is it cold in here? · « **Reply #77 on:** 08 Aug 2009, 14:19 »

What kind of desk job would work for Wil? Something in communications, perhaps, though he might find it soul-destroying.

sofiabailote · « **Reply #78 on:** 08 Aug 2009, 15:30 »

Quote from: Juniper Jade on 06 Aug 2009, 18:05

Well... it IS dreary manual labor. If a boy said that to me when I was catering I would only agree with him. Work like that sucks ass and should be avoided if you can help it.

my point was not either that kind of job sucks or not (obviously it does, and not only because it's manual labor but mostly because there's hardly any career perspective). The point is that he is in a way belittling her job, which is currently paying HIS bills. Like he's saying- manual labor is good for you but not for me. If I was in her shoes that comment would have pissed me off immensely.

sofiabailote · « **Reply #79 on:** 08 Aug 2009, 15:32 »

Quote from: LeeC on 06 Aug 2009, 19:00

am I crazy to be quitting my boring sit at a desk job witht he government to go back to school, meaning I'll have to work a dull manual labor job again?

no, investing in your education and your future is NEVER a bad choice. Even if for a while it seems that way, it pays off in the end.

danman · « **Reply #80 on:** 08 Aug 2009, 15:35 »

Quote from: Delirium on 24 Jul 2009, 15:46

Let me guess, you live in some interchangable ex-Soviet country?

ex-Soviet no, ex-RVHP && Warsaw Agreement yes.
Still it does not make what i said less relevant. Our artists were able to produce interesting and valuable works while most of them had proper jobs at least in early part of lives (later plenty became polit. functionaries or culture officials which is not manual labour).
This implies that will is just conjuring an excuse for his seal disease (arms away from work like seal's fins

, common expression here)

danman · « **Reply #81 on:** 08 Aug 2009, 15:38 »

Quote from: sofiabailote on 08 Aug 2009, 15:32

no, investing in your education and your future is NEVER a bad choice. Even if for a while it seems that way, it pays off in the end.

It depends - if one studies something rather useless (and from what i have read , in USA there are plenty such courses) he can give himself a shaft by wasting a few years ,and throwing a bunch of loans on his shoulders

LeeC · « **Reply #82 on:** 08 Aug 2009, 15:49 »

Anthropology.

any who I already have my AA. I am now going for my BA and hopfully a PhD. I can totally go back to the same agency i was a contractor for and work as a government employee and end up getting paid twice as much and more, than what I am getting now. Or I could become a professor, a consultant, an archeologist, a....

The thing with anthropology, and indeed many majors, if you want to get a job in your field of study, you have to be creative.

After working as a contractor in the government I have seen many ways to do so. Not just with the government, but also in the corparate and private sectors. And even then there are many who get jobs they like that pay well that isnt in their field of study.

nichidani · « **Reply #83 on:** 08 Aug 2009, 17:43 »

Quote from: danman on 08 Aug 2009, 15:38

It depends - if one studies something rather useless (and from what i have read , in USA there are plenty such courses) he can give himself a shaft by wasting a few years ,and throwing a bunch of loans on his shoulders

i.e. a bachelors in psychology, english, etc.

Random832 · « **Reply #84 on:** 08 Aug 2009, 21:46 »

Quote from: sofiabailote on 08 Aug 2009, 15:30

Like he's saying- manual labor is good for you but not for me.

I'm pretty sure what he actually said was "manual labor is not good" period - there was nothing in there implying "is good for you".

LeeC · « **Reply #85 on:** 09 Aug 2009, 18:38 »

I dunno, the way I read it (and there are a number of different ways anyone can read it of course) is he thinks of himself as "above" that kind of work.

@nichidani: are those useless or useful degrees, im am confused.

I thought they were useful. Everyone thinks anthropology is a useless one. When I mention it everyone immediately jumps to Indiana Jones or National Treasure.

...or worse, cross Geller...

plethora · « **Reply #86 on:** 10 Aug 2009, 02:43 »

Quote from: LeeC on 09 Aug 2009, 18:38

Everyone thinks anthropology is a useless one. When I mention it everyone immediately jumps to Indiana Jones or National Treasure. ...or worse, cross Geller...

I'm confused. Isn't anthropology the study of human behaviour? Indiana Jones is an archaeologist. Or do I have that arse-backwards?

LeeC · « **Reply #87 on:** 10 Aug 2009, 04:14 »

Anthropology is the study of man. it has 3 major subgroups, arechology, cultural anthropology, and I for got the last one...haha.

I'd prefer idiana jones or national treasure to Ross Geller from friends. Dude was a wet dishcloth.

Surgoshan · « **Reply #88 on:** 10 Aug 2009, 04:55 »

Ross was a paleontologist, not an anthropologist.

LeeC · « **Reply #89 on:** 10 Aug 2009, 04:56 »

Quote from: Surgoshan on 10 Aug 2009, 04:55

Ross was a paleontologist, not an anthropologist.

I know, but when I say anthropologist it still springs into peoples minds.

sofiabailote · « **Reply #90 on:** 10 Aug 2009, 10:07 »

Quote from: Random832 on 08 Aug 2009, 21:46

Quote from: sofiabailote on 08 Aug 2009, 15:30
Like he's saying- manual labor is good for you but not for me.

I'm pretty sure what he actually said was "manual labor is not good" period - there was nothing in there implying "is good for you".

no, he's not saying manual labor sucks, he's saying he wants to avoid that type of work for himself. He's saying: "I'm above that shit." when in fact it is actual manual labor that pays his bills at the moment- just not HIS manual labor.

Is it cold in here? · « **Reply #91 on:** 10 Aug 2009, 11:01 »

If that's what he meant (entirely possible), wouldn't he have said something more explicit than "I'd hoped to avoid that kind of dreary manual labor"?

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Author Topic: Will Wil and Penelope's relationship last? (Read 29391 times)