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Author Topic: Have You Forgotten?  (Read 27194 times)

a pack of wolves

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Re: Have You Forgotten?
« Reply #50 on: 14 Sep 2009, 09:55 »

The Weather Underground were actually pretty consistent in their bombings during the early '70s and in the late 19th - early 20th century there was quite a lot of terrorism on the go, such as Alexander Berkman's attempted assassination of Henry Clay Frick and Leon Czolgosz's successful assassination of President McKinley. Compared to much of America's history this is a very quiet period for domestic terrorism, though of course perception and reality are not the same thing.
« Last Edit: 16 Sep 2009, 04:44 by a pack of wolves »
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Re: Have You Forgotten?
« Reply #51 on: 14 Sep 2009, 10:06 »

The factor you are missing is the mindset of the typical American. During those periods America was not the "super awesome untouchable superpower" that is has been considered since WWII. I really think that a large portion of the reaction to 9/11 was related to terrorists showing that foreigners could actually damage our country and kill our people. Kind of a bruised ego type of thing.
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a pack of wolves

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Re: Have You Forgotten?
« Reply #52 on: 14 Sep 2009, 11:05 »

The Weather Underground were operating some time after WW2, I doubt most of them were even born during it.  You do have a point in that all of these were instances of domestic terrorism though. Well, sort of anyway since quite a lot involved immigrants and that's often seen as outside influence, and they were all left wing groups or individuals and 20th century examples of that were usually seen as the influence of the USSR. But 9/11 was so thoroughly foreign nobody could deny it came from outside, which does make it easier to get all self-righteous about.
« Last Edit: 14 Sep 2009, 11:08 by a pack of wolves »
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Re: Have You Forgotten?
« Reply #53 on: 14 Sep 2009, 11:24 »

9/11 set about this idea that terrorist conspiracies were state-level threats. They never were, of course. As free-floating bodies they have very little power except in failed states like Afghanistan and Lebanon. As a person living in a rural area, my chances of being killed by terrorists are about as good as my being struck by lightning on a cloudless day. Urban residents have marginally greater risk. There's very very little that people actually have to fear.

But I get where Dovey's coming from. The principles of foreign and domestic policy in the US, the priorities of law enforcement and intelligence agencies, the level of concern for civil liberties, all changed dramatically over the course of a few hours, and that's had and will continue to have important implications the world over. 9/11 inflamed and legitimized neoconservatism for 8 long years. It more or less led to the allowance of two overseas conflicts, neither of which would have happened had the attacks not taken place, the effects of which will be felt for generations. The kind of extremism that facilitated the attacks was an inevitably produced byproduct of globalization and the spread of western culture into conservative countries, but it took a catastrophe to call attention to that fact. Unfortunately there's really not a lot we can do.
« Last Edit: 14 Sep 2009, 11:27 by KvP »
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Re: Have You Forgotten?
« Reply #54 on: 14 Sep 2009, 11:44 »



teehee at both signs.
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Re: Have You Forgotten?
« Reply #55 on: 14 Sep 2009, 13:57 »

I have no idea what that picture was in reference to, but I know I was wrong about terrorism being new to the US. I suppose I meant it was the first time that America had perceived itself as under continuous threat.

I'd also add that it was the first time that "terrorist" or "terorism" was being a mainstream used word.
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Re: Have You Forgotten?
« Reply #56 on: 14 Sep 2009, 15:57 »

All of those teabagger signs make me want to rage so hard. So hard.
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Re: Have You Forgotten?
« Reply #57 on: 14 Sep 2009, 20:24 »

I have no idea what that picture was in reference to

fucking DIE HARD geezus

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Re: Have You Forgotten?
« Reply #58 on: 14 Sep 2009, 21:14 »

9/11 is that important to these people. It all makes sense to me now.

Actually 9/12 is that important, because they wanted their own separate day for it, because before they had to share it with that Bastion of liberalism (New York City) and the Seat of the All Hated Government (DC) and those pesky victims families.

Quote
"You know, it took me about a year to start hating the 9-11 victims' families. ... I don't hate all of them. I hate about, probably about 10 of them. But when I see, you know, 9-11 victim family, on television, or whatever, I'm just like, "Oh, shut up." I'm so sick of them, because they're always complaining. And we did our best for them." - Glenn Beck

9/11 really was that big, for me (who was born downstate, had family in the city and even in the PATH station under the towers that day.)  It ranks up there with the Berlin Wall coming down as huge events go.  Because a certain segment of the right (largely neoconservatives) has attempted to hijack its meaning and use it as justification for furthering their own agenda, a lot of people lose sight of that.  

It's a big deal because American's have traditionally been isolationists, who have counted on the fact that the oceans surrounding us would make us untouchable on our own territory.  It's also a big deal because Washington is a traditionally realist town, and all of a sudden, violent non-state actors pose the biggest threat to our national security, something that can't be explained by typical realist theory, which claims states are the primary unit of analysis.
« Last Edit: 14 Sep 2009, 21:23 by Danny Clash »
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David_Dovey

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Re: Have You Forgotten?
« Reply #59 on: 15 Sep 2009, 01:18 »

THINGS
STUFF

I love it when people who are way smarter than me explain what I am trying to say. This, guys. This!

Quote
"You know, it took me about a year to start hating the 9-11 victims' families. ... I don't hate all of them. I hate about, probably about 10 of them. But when I see, you know, 9-11 victim family, on television, or whatever, I'm just like, "Oh, shut up." I'm so sick of them, because they're always complaining. And we did our best for them." - Glenn Beck

Hey compared to Ann Coulter, Glenn Beck is a picture of restraint on this one!
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supersheep

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Re: Have You Forgotten?
« Reply #60 on: 15 Sep 2009, 08:25 »

In Britain, major terrorist acts in Manchester and London were more than just a blip on the radar (I heard  the Bishopsgate bomb while sitting in my garden), and nothing to do with Islam either.
There was a huge qualitative shift in the common opinion on terrorism, though, and I think that, more than anything else, is what changed. Obviously my view is skewed somewhat given the wee conflict just north of my hometown, but I certainly got the feeling that the Provo's English campaigns were dealt with in the same stoic way as the Blitz - stiff upper lip, won't let them change us, that sort of thing. Comparatively, there was so much more fuss over the handful of terrorist attacks Britain has experienced since September 11, 2001. Now, maybe I'm wrong, and anyone who lived through the Troubles from an English perspective and can correct me on this, please do so. 9/11 (god I hate that phrase but it is the only convenient shorthand) turned terrorism from a low-level background threat to the huge world-shaking, terrifying all-the-time thing.

Why did this qualitative shift occur? I think at least part of it is due to the 'spectacle' of the event. I don't think anyone has ever watched such a dramatic and spectacular event live on television before, or had the opportunity. Hell, I can't think of any events that fit the bill that have even been recorded. Add to that the wide audiences, and you have something that has got a particular resonance no other occurence has had on such a wide and instantaneous scale.
(There's some interesting stuff to be drawn out on the postmodernist nature of terrorism, I think.)
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WriterofAllWrongs

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Re: Have You Forgotten?
« Reply #61 on: 15 Sep 2009, 08:42 »

Hey compared to Ann Coulter, Glenn Beck is a picture of restraint on this one!


Compared to Ann Coulter, a mountain lion with rabies is a picture of restraint.
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Tyler

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Re: Have You Forgotten?
« Reply #62 on: 15 Sep 2009, 09:44 »

9/11 on a personal level will probably always maintain itself as an incredibly resonating moment of time. Like Odi said, the fact that it was live on television just made it that much more vivid. Sitting in a packed school cafeteria where you could only hear the tv and a few sobs knowing I was literally watching thousands of people that lived less than two hours away from me die is not something that is soon forgotten. The global importance will most likely be remembered for its shifting of US foreign policy and an even greater focus on Islam and terrorism in the media. However, in the States, it represented far more than that. We did exist within a shell up until that point. Not since Pearl Harbor had a foreign group managed to cause such chaos on US soil. Until then, terrorism was something that really only happened abroad. Was it a myopic view? Absolutely. Yet it is hard to appreciate the danger of an event until it happens. Suddenly having a focus on just domestic affairs was no longer enough. A group of extremists discontent with American culture living on the opposite side of the world directly affected me. Even more frightening is that if it were not for some heroic passengers on one of the flights, there was a good chance that many members of the US Congress would be dead. The fact remains that we are still as a country learning how to react from the event. The initial surge of patriotism and desire to stand up again were quickly confused by questionable foreign policy decisions that turned such a tragic event into a marketing ploy to attack Iraq. Few things upset me more than this. Even the joking nature of this thread speaks to the innumerable damage that horrid decision for war has caused. We mock the patriotism not because of the event itself, but because of what it has been warped into a tool of, and there is a real tragedy in that. This is at least my take on the matter.
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Tyler

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Re: Have You Forgotten?
« Reply #63 on: 15 Sep 2009, 11:13 »

I give up
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onewheelwizzard

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Re: Have You Forgotten?
« Reply #64 on: 15 Sep 2009, 12:03 »






The crash site of Flight 93, in PA.  Pictures taken on 9/11.

Space for commentary intentionally left blank.
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Re: Have You Forgotten?
« Reply #65 on: 15 Sep 2009, 12:06 »

Wait, so did the lizardmen do it on behalf of the international cabal of Jewish financiers or was it the other way around?

You've lost me a little here.

It all came down to the fact that the Jewish financiers had recieved too many vaccinations, and had been drinking fluoridated water.
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0bsessions

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Re: Have You Forgotten?
« Reply #66 on: 15 Sep 2009, 12:39 »

Why did this qualitative shift occur? I think at least part of it is due to the 'spectacle' of the event. I don't think anyone has ever watched such a dramatic and spectacular event live on television before, or had the opportunity. Hell, I can't think of any events that fit the bill that have even been recorded. Add to that the wide audiences, and you have something that has got a particular resonance no other occurence has had on such a wide and instantaneous scale.
(There's some interesting stuff to be drawn out on the postmodernist nature of terrorism, I think.)

And, intriguingly enough, one can say that Al Quaida essentially got exactly what they wanted. Raise your hand if you knew jack shit about Al Quaida before the incident. It got them international infamy, put their message out there and essentially put America on the road down a pretty dangerous path that we're still trying to recover from.

Does anyone really think Bush would've stayed in office for eight years if 9/11 never happened? Does anyone really think that the absolutely batshit policies that Cheney got pushed through would've gone through without 9/11 as a justification?

For all their crowing and half-hearted mourning, the World Trade Center incident was probably the best thing to happen to the Republicans since Reagan left office.
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David_Dovey

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Re: Have You Forgotten?
« Reply #67 on: 15 Sep 2009, 17:17 »

The crash site of Flight 93, in PA.  Pictures taken on 9/11.

Space for commentary intentionally left blank.

I wish you didn't, it's making me hard to tell just how mean I should be to you right now.
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David_Dovey

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Re: Have You Forgotten?
« Reply #68 on: 15 Sep 2009, 17:22 »

wait if you reordered those pics you totally could've made it into a zoom meme
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BeoPuppy

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Re: Have You Forgotten?
« Reply #69 on: 16 Sep 2009, 01:25 »

Why did this qualitative shift occur? I think at least part of it is due to the 'spectacle' of the event. I don't think anyone has ever watched such a dramatic and spectacular event live on television before, or had the opportunity. Hell, I can't think of any events that fit the bill that have even been recorded. Add to that the wide audiences, and you have something that has got a particular resonance no other occurence has had on such a wide and instantaneous scale.
(There's some interesting stuff to be drawn out on the postmodernist nature of terrorism, I think.)

I watched the fall of the Berlin wall live on TV and my world has never been the same since. This may, of course, be a geographical thing since I'm here in Europe and I suspect you are not.


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David_Dovey

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Re: Have You Forgotten?
« Reply #70 on: 16 Sep 2009, 01:36 »

He's in Ireland, dogg.
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BeoPuppy

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Re: Have You Forgotten?
« Reply #71 on: 16 Sep 2009, 01:39 »

Live and learn. Well ... then I don't quite see how the fall of the wall might have been lost on you as a dramatic and spectacular occurance. But, hey ... my spectacle might be your walk in the park.
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Delirium

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Re: Have You Forgotten?
« Reply #72 on: 16 Sep 2009, 02:05 »

The Weather Underground were actually pretty consistent in their bombings during the early '70s and in the late 18th - early 19th century there was quite a lot of terrorism on the go, such as Alexander Berkman's attempted assassination of Henry Clay Frick and Leon Czolgosz's successful assassination of President McKinley. Compared to much of America's history this is a very quiet period for domestic terrorism, though of course perception and reality are not the same thing.
HAHAHAHA

My history teacher itold me Leon Czolgosz was the guy who shot Archduke Ferdinand, which started World War One. Holy shit. Holy SHIT, the american educational system blows.
« Last Edit: 16 Sep 2009, 02:13 by Delirium »
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Delirium

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Re: Have You Forgotten?
« Reply #73 on: 16 Sep 2009, 02:14 »

Just one failure among a metric fuckton others.
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Jace

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Re: Have You Forgotten?
« Reply #74 on: 16 Sep 2009, 06:07 »

about 10 successes.
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Re: Have You Forgotten?
« Reply #75 on: 16 Sep 2009, 11:23 »

Live and learn. Well ... then I don't quite see how the fall of the wall might have been lost on you as a dramatic and spectacular occurance. But, hey ... my spectacle might be your walk in the park.
I was three, I wasn't there in any real sense. I mean, who knows, maybe I did see it fall on telly? But it didn't register in the same way, unsurprisingly. Also, I'd say the image of a plane flying into a building is a little more dramatic of an image than the wall falling, but once again, that might be my personal experience speaking. As to which one was more important? Ask again in two hundred years, probably. It's still too soon to tell.

EDIT: Just realised I didn't make it clear that when I saw "dramatic" or "spectacular" here, I'm just talking about the image, not the act.
« Last Edit: 16 Sep 2009, 11:27 by supersheep »
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Re: Have You Forgotten?
« Reply #76 on: 16 Sep 2009, 12:38 »

Drama may also be quite localised.  When the Hungerford gunman was shooting at people at random, I was working in an office only a few miles away with a load of people whose families were within range of that guy's gun.  That  was drama (even without images).
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Re: Have You Forgotten?
« Reply #77 on: 16 Sep 2009, 15:42 »

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Re: Have You Forgotten?
« Reply #78 on: 16 Sep 2009, 15:48 »

i'm trying to think of top 40 rock songs that have reference 9/11 but i can't. someone help
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Re: Have You Forgotten?
« Reply #79 on: 16 Sep 2009, 15:56 »

They banned those.
Actually, not so long ago, I came across a list of songs that got banned becase they were making references to 9/11 and Middle East. Weirdly, "Walk Like An Egyptian" made that list.
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David_Dovey

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Re: Have You Forgotten?
« Reply #80 on: 16 Sep 2009, 17:29 »

i'm trying to think of top 40 rock songs that have reference 9/11 but i can't. someone help

I don't remember the lyrics off by heart and it probably wasn't Top 40 but there's always "I Raq and I Roll" by Clint Black.

Yes, it's as awful as the name suggests.
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Re: Have You Forgotten?
« Reply #82 on: 16 Sep 2009, 18:43 »

i'm trying to think of top 40 rock songs that have reference 9/11 but i can't. someone help

Didn't the Springsteen album The Rising have some hits?
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Re: Have You Forgotten?
« Reply #83 on: 16 Sep 2009, 18:52 »

from wiki

Linkin Park - "Crawling" (WTC Tribute Edit)
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David_Dovey

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Re: Have You Forgotten?
« Reply #85 on: 16 Sep 2009, 20:01 »

Goldfinger, Mest, and Good Charlotte - The Innocent
Linkin Park - "Crawling" (WTC Tribute Edit)

that's really insensitive of those guys, to be putting out music at a time when people were already so scared and angry
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Mnementh

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Re: Have You Forgotten?
« Reply #86 on: 16 Sep 2009, 20:44 »

When the wall came down I saw it on the television and it changed my world too.  I think it's because I'm just old enough to have experienced some of the Cold War. Granted, I was only eight, but you understand the broader themes at work by that age.  If I'd been a little older, it may very well have had the visceral impact that the towers coming down did. But I do agree.  I think the imagery, as well as proximity, may well have something to do with it, I still vividly remember the Challenger Explosion as well as Reagan's speech afterwards, despite the fact that I was only four.

If many of you ask your parents, they'll still remember where they were when Kennedy was shot, and many can remember it like it was yesterday.
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Re: Have You Forgotten?
« Reply #87 on: 16 Sep 2009, 21:14 »

i'm trying to think of top 40 rock songs that have reference 9/11 but i can't. someone help

Didn't the Springsteen album The Rising have some hits?
I'm pretty sure the album was cut prior to 9/11 and all the songs that people take as being about 9/11 are actually about New Jersey which was and remains a terrible shithole that Springsteen looks upon with sadness.
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Re: Have You Forgotten?
« Reply #88 on: 16 Sep 2009, 22:56 »

The crash site of Flight 93, in PA.  Pictures taken on 9/11.

Space for commentary intentionally left blank.

I wish you didn't, it's making me hard to tell just how mean I should be to you right now.

I don't get it, what are you trying to say?
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David_Dovey

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Re: Have You Forgotten?
« Reply #89 on: 16 Sep 2009, 23:08 »

Basically what I'm wondering is whether or not you're a Truther
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Re: Have You Forgotten?
« Reply #90 on: 17 Sep 2009, 09:04 »

If many of you ask your parents, they'll still remember where they were when Kennedy was shot, and many can remember it like it was yesterday.

Actually this is a great example of the psychological phenomenon through which people make up memories.  A lot of people's memories about when and where they heard about Kennedy are fabrications.  They aren't deliberately lying, but rather they sincerely believe something that isn't actually the case, like they think they knew about the assassination the moment it happened but really they were in the yard at the time and saw news footage a few hours later.

This is a tangent unrelated to the main point really; whether or not the memories are true, the event clearly had a big effect on people.  It's just a topic that fascinates me, reflecting on when and why people believe stories that are made up, with these stories including things they've told themselves and "people" certainly including me (ie. I know for certain there are many things I remember that never actually happened.)

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Re: Have You Forgotten?
« Reply #91 on: 17 Sep 2009, 10:08 »

Basically what I'm wondering is whether or not you're a Truther

What commentary could I have made that would reveal me as such?  What significance is there to those photographs that suggest to you that by posting them, being a "truther" is a possible implication?

I mean, I've caught on to what you're saying, I'm just going to let you say it.
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Re: Have You Forgotten?
« Reply #92 on: 17 Sep 2009, 10:27 »

I'm going to go with the fact that one of the photos is linked from Scholars for 9/11 Truth and Justice and some folks that have been around the internet have seen other people do the exact same thing before.
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Re: Have You Forgotten?
« Reply #93 on: 17 Sep 2009, 10:45 »

And the Lockerbie bombing, which we're about it?
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Re: Have You Forgotten?
« Reply #94 on: 17 Sep 2009, 10:50 »

I'm going to go with the fact that one of the photos is linked from Scholars for 9/11 Truth and Justice and some folks that have been around the internet have seen other people do the exact same thing before.

Oh, clearly.  I mean, all I did was GIS "flight 93."  I didn't even look at where the images were coming from.  Obviously this is not a new thing, considering how easy it was to find this stuff and where on the internet the search engine ended up finding what I was looking for.

I should've arranged them to zoom in, though, it's true.

I only posted the pictures because they represent the weirdest and least conventionally explainable incongruity in the whole affair.  I have some idle conjectures about their significance but I'm hardly rabid about it (at least, not to the point where the term "Truther" deserves a capital T when referring to me.)

By the way, the first page of GIS results for "Pan Am 103."  Call me crazy, but there seems to be a distinct difference.
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Re: Have You Forgotten?
« Reply #95 on: 17 Sep 2009, 11:46 »

these things generally become less incongrous when you start listening to qualified engineers, scientists, air crash investigators and so on rather than people who believe that the jewish bolshevik banker conspiracy did it
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Re: Have You Forgotten?
« Reply #96 on: 17 Sep 2009, 11:56 »

Yeah you gotta make sure not to forget that the international bankers who organized the 9/11 attacks were backed by (or perhaps are physical incarnations of, depending on who you talk to) hyperdimensional reptilians bent on enslaving all intelligent life.

No, seriously, there's no plane in those pictures.  Flight 93 clearly did not crash into a field in Pennsylvania.  There would be a bunch of plane wreckage in a field if a plane had crashed into a field.  You don't need to nitpick about the temperature that jet fuel burns at (nor do you need to theorize about rich Jewish lizards) in order to see this.

(Just for the sake of it, I'll present the conjecture that perhaps 9/11 happened exactly the way we have been told it did, with the sole exception that flight 93 was actually shot down using something that contained enough high explosives to scatter the wreckage far beyond the field the plane allegedly crashed into, and that it was decided that revealing this tactical decision wouldn't be as good for the public as suggesting that the passengers on the plane intentionally downed it.  Again, no need for vast Zionist agendas.  Just saying, if a plane had crashed in a field in PA, there'd be pictures of a plane crashed in a field in PA, and there are no such pictures.  There are instead pictures of a hole in the ground with no plane in it.)
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Re: Have You Forgotten?
« Reply #97 on: 19 Sep 2009, 16:06 »

Yarr!


yarr!
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Re: Have You Forgotten?
« Reply #98 on: 19 Sep 2009, 16:10 »

Yar?

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Re: Have You Forgotten?
« Reply #99 on: 19 Sep 2009, 22:37 »

Oh oh oh can we have a 9/11 Truther thread, please please please please!

I don't think we've had one yet on this forum and I miss them.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
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