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Author Topic: Varg Vikernes (Burzum) released from prison after 16 years  (Read 23969 times)

Hat

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even if he did download music I don't really understand what your point would be Tommy.

I mean everyone knows you use the best justification available to you in order to pirate music and this is pretty high up there as far as reasons to not have to pay for music go.

Well it was mostly to avoid veering wildly off-topic (especially into pretty well-worn) territory but also because if you looked even medium-hard you'd be able to find good explanations of why you are so, so wrong.

Actually you know what I am going to throw you a bone and just link you to The Lefsetz Letter. Bob Lefsetz is a music industry insider who's been doing it for about 30 years so he knows what he's talking about. He's a dinosaur and he's got very questionable taste in music and is overall ignorant of almost everything happening outside of the Billboard 200 but he's probably one of the most eloquent voices in articulating why the music business needs to change drastically.

I once got an assignment back where I'd done nothing but reference secondary sources and refer to other peoples arguments and the professor got a big red sharpie and wrote "NO CONTENT" over it like a big stamp and that is what I want to do to this post.

I mean I know you've argued about it before but at least give us a specific link to focus on here instead of a link to the front page of his website or something.
« Last Edit: 24 Sep 2009, 03:24 by Hat »
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Quote from: Emilio
power metal set in the present is basically crunk

Sox

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We've had this discussion before like a million times so I'm not really in the mood to repeat the salient points but suffice to say you're wrong.

He isn't wrong though. There are people for whom illegal downloading is an alternative to paying, rather than a separate entity. There are people who won't buy a t-shirt or go see a show.
Here, we support musicians that we care about, so it's easy for us to argue in favour of filesharing. We're part of a specialised market that allows for that kind of flexibility regarding 'illegal' downloading without presenting a moral quandary.

The top 200 billboard however is a completely different kind of monster. In this context, filesharing is as different as the circumstances surrounding the artists.
While a small band can and will benefit from filesharing, the billboard 200 crowds take a significant hit in sales. Perhaps it's partly because people realise how awful the music is now before they pay for it, but I sincerely doubt that. It's because they no longer have to buy the CD to enjoy the product. They will download the song, they will listen to it until they hate and then they won't buy the t-shirt.

That is a market significantly larger than the one that we are a part of and every day it's costing more money than you'll probably ever have in your life. While we can argue that people who affiliate themselves with the majors or are successful enough to chart don't deserve money, that is not what the debate is. The debate is whether or not illegal downloading can be theft. We can argue about the definition of theft all day, but basically...

If you have a product on your iPod that the artist probably intended for you to pay for and you didn't...
...they have lost money.

Not being able to afford music in the first place is not a factor in this argument because if you can't afford music, then you can't afford it, file sharing or no. These arguments apply to the people who could conceivably be paying for music but choose not to. I have a suspicion that a lot of people who use the "I can't afford music" argument have no problem spending money on shoes they don't need, so dismiss that argument every time you hear it. Not being able to afford something is not the same as spending your money on something else instead.

It's not about whether or not file sharing is appropriate. It's about when and where it is. It is up to the individual to decide whether or not it is stealing based on their own habits regarding the downloading of music.

BeoPuppy has decided that if he doesn't pay for music, then he is stealing it. Hats off to him for saying something that a lot of people here don't seem to want to say.

I steal music. Just like you.
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Hat

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a small band can and will benefit from filesharing,

not as convincing a justification for music piracy as "I refuse to financially support nazi's" but I guess it works alright

seriously though if you think music piracy can never hurt a small band you are wrong, sorry. I am just really sick of smug people who actually use this to justify pirating independent or struggling artists' work. I know that is not actually your point here Darryl but you've kind of used it as a buttress for the rest of your argument so I am getting uppity here since it seems everyone just wants another music piracy backpatting thread instead of maybe discussing this complex moral issue.
« Last Edit: 24 Sep 2009, 05:27 by Hat »
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Quote from: Emilio
power metal set in the present is basically crunk

Sox

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yeah, let's amend that to 'can and usually does'.
that's closer to what I wanted to say.
« Last Edit: 24 Sep 2009, 05:45 by Sox »
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KharBevNor

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I don't think it's a complex moral issue. I think that copyright is a set of arcane laws designed almost solely to protect the rights of those who distribute, rather than the artists. Now that the distributors have become irrelevant those on the top are worried about the security of their rich arsehole mansions, private jets and cocaine. They're worried that they won't be able to make ridiculous amounts of money by bribing radio stations to play substandard content and then raking in the pocket money of a couple of million 13 year old kids. The idea that artists need to work through record labels is an utter lie. They need to work through record labels to become big rockstars and get to shag hollywood actors and go to the best parties, but greed, after all, is something we don't need. The fact of the matter is that record labels do not create value, they simply leach off the creativity of others. Others who they offer no job security and have no loyalty to. The gallery and agent system in the art world works very similiarly; the gallery cut is actually one of the biggest obstacles to people making a living out of traditional art.    

I say this as a dude who derives over 50% of his income from selling original works of art and music. Truth is, there are other ways of managing things. It is cheaper than ever to make extremely good music; anyone with a home computer, a few instruments, a lot of patience and a gram of talent can produce interesting results. Musical endeavours can be financed in numerous other ways; a lot of the bands I like make their money through a combination of merchandising, touring and selling 'boutique' limited editions of their work at inflated sums. If I had a higher level of output, and more fans, I would start a subscription service; for three quid a month I will send you, digitally (or for six quid a month, physically) every bit of music I make, and offer you discounted merch.  Supplemented with merch, limited edition EPs and the odd live show, that would be sufficient to live on, for me anyway, with about six hundred subscribers; 100 six quid subscribers and 500 three quid subscribers would come up to 21k a year, which is a decent wage.

I really need to get more popular.
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[22:25] Dovey: i don't get sigquoted much
[22:26] Dovey: like, maybe, 4 or 5 times that i know of?
[22:26] Dovey: and at least one of those was a blatant ploy at getting sigquoted

http://panzerdivisio

Hat

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I don't think it's a complex moral issue.

I am talking about giving money to nazi's, not copyright law.

Like the topic was about originally

sometimes I think I am going crazy and making up imagined conversations we weren't actually talking about at all so when I yell "LETS TALK ABOUT NAZIS FOR FUCKS SAKE" it turns out I am the crazy one. This happens in real life as well, minus the luxury of being able to scroll back a page.
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Quote from: Emilio
power metal set in the present is basically crunk

supersheep

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The debate is whether or not illegal downloading can be theft. We can argue about the definition of theft all day, but basically...

If you have a product on your iPod that the artist probably intended for you to pay for and you didn't...
...they have lost money.
No no no no NO. It is NOT theft. Whether or not it's MORALLY right is another issue, but it is definitely not theft.

If you want to steal something, it has to be a real object, and you have to be depriving the previous owner of its use when you steal it. Neither of these things apply to downloaded music.

I've pointed this out before, but economics says that the price we should be paying for music now is zero. That's right, ZERO. Music (and digital information) is a post-scarcity environment. There's a whole wodge of interesting stuff in there about copyright, and I won't repeat Khar's masterful summary of the key issue.

On the whole giving money to fascists thing, I don't think there's anyone here who would argue that we should be giving money to fascists, so I dunno if there's much we can argue about there.
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DJ Weight Problem: if you think semantics isn't that important maybe you should just can dig four banana nine jenkins razor blade dinosaur

tommydski

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even if he did download music I don't really understand what your point would be Tommy.

If you just download all music regardless, you can't claim to be making an example of him by downloading his music because you're doing it to everyone regardless of their political stance.

If you actually buy other people's music and download Varg's because he's a Nazi, that actually makes sense.
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Hat

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If you just download all music regardless, you can't claim to be making an example of him by downloading his music because you're doing it to everyone regardless of their political stance

who said anything about an example? Some people are just legitimately uncomfortable knowing they've given money to a Nazi. Do you really think anyone is going to pirate a Burzum album and go "ho ho ho that'll learn him"

(no)
« Last Edit: 24 Sep 2009, 16:04 by Hat »
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Quote from: Emilio
power metal set in the present is basically crunk

David_Dovey

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I mean I know you've argued about it before but at least give us a specific link to focus on here instead of a link to the front page of his website or something.

Yes but I guess what I really wanted to achieve with posting that link (which I just could've easily stuck to my guns and not done anyway) is to basically get people to pay attention to the site in general because almost everything he has to say is pretty flippin' interesting. It was presented in the context of the argument at hand but it was more or less to rep the site to people who didn't know it existed.
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Mr. Doctor

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I buy his music because he's Norwegian. Whitey gotta stick together

You just maded my day, thank you.  :-)

I agree with supersheep in the definition of what's theft and what's not.
And also, in my case i couldn't care less since most of the bands I listen to are the ones that don't get enough selling for a living anyway and therefore they work normal jobs too. And they are also the bands that get most of their money from concerts than cds... Now that I think of it, most of the artist get way more money from concerts than cds... Last time I checked it was that way, I don't know how it is overall but I still have the opinion that dowloading is totally ok... and I still buy a lot of cds too!
« Last Edit: 25 Sep 2009, 07:29 by Mr. Doctor »
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Sox

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No no no no NO. It is NOT theft. Whether or not it's MORALLY right is another issue, but it is definitely not theft.
If you want to steal something, it has to be a real object, and you have to be depriving the previous owner of its use when you steal it. Neither of these things apply to downloaded music.

The thing is, to some people, music isn't a right, but a privilege. That's a terrible way to look at music that I definitely do not approve of, but there are people in the industry who think like that. And if those people don't want us to listen to their music without paying for it, that's fine. It's their product and ultimately their decision to decide whether or not I have 'stolen' music. The law might not agree with them, but until you're being slapped with a lawsuit then law never comes into these debates, they're entirely about who thinks they have the moral higher ground.

If you took a naked picture of your girlfriend and charged money to see it, that'd be fine. If I stole a look anyway and you called me out on it, that'd be fine too. If you told me that I had no right to take a peek without handing you 5, I would agree with you. Whether the picture is worth 5 to look at or not doesn't come into it. It wasn't mine to look at. Even though there's nothing material that I am taking away from you.
That's all digital music is. It's a 'look'.

This is not a debate about law and it is not a debate about copyright, despite words like 'theft' and 'stealing' being thrown around.
There are two individuals involved in this.
The artist and the consumer. They alone choose whether or not they are stealing or being stolen from and it is nobody elses place to say.

Respect the artist. Respect the consumer. And don't bring in some bullshit about copyright to defend a moral stance.
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David_Dovey

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Darryl that's a really dogshit analogy
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Sox

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You're just sore that I won't show you the picture.
Come on man, you can afford it.
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tommydski

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who said anything about an example? Some people are just legitimately uncomfortable knowing they've given money to a Nazi. Do you really think anyone is going to pirate a Burzum album and go "ho ho ho that'll learn him"

On the first page people seemed to be implying that he would be an exception because they wouldn't buy his music. This would be bullshit if they didn't buy anyone's music.

In the case of Beopuppy, he genuinely does buy other people's music but not Varg's.
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Quote from: Ozymandias
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Hat

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who said anything about an example? Some people are just legitimately uncomfortable knowing they've given money to a Nazi. Do you really think anyone is going to pirate a Burzum album and go "ho ho ho that'll learn him"

On the first page people seemed to be implying that he would be an exception because they wouldn't buy his music. This would be bullshit if they didn't buy anyone's music.

In the case of Beopuppy, he genuinely does buy other people's music but not Varg's.

There is a difference between what people seem to imply and what people are actually saying. "Seemed to imply" is a rhetorical phrase that is not very helpful because it's just not clear what you are trying to say here.

It seems like you are saying "People say they want to make an example of him by not buying his albums but if they pirate them how can they make an example of him" which would be fair except nobody has actually said that they don't pay for music but still want to make an example of him. In fact nobody has even implied that or even SEEMED to imply that as far as I can tell

Darryl that's a really dogshit analogy

Not if Darryl is a big record label and his girlfriend is a struggling band.

« Last Edit: 27 Sep 2009, 02:42 by Hat »
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Quote from: Emilio
power metal set in the present is basically crunk

David_Dovey

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Mostly I just took issue with this:

If you told me that I had no right to take a peek without handing you 5, I would agree with you.

what
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It's a roasted cocoa bean, commonly found in vaginas.

tommydski

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In fact nobody has even implied that or even SEEMED to imply that as far as I can tell

The people who quoted Beopuppy (who we have now covered) and said "QFT" etc.

I used "seemed to imply" very specifically because that is exactly what I thought upon reading those posts on the first page. Whether or not I was right is irrelevant, that is definitely what I thought at the time of posting, which is why I did.
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Quote from: Ozymandias
One minute we're playing Mario Kart, the next my penis is in your mouth - it just happens.

Hat

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Look I'm not going to say that "seemed to imply" has absolutely no legitimate use in conversation, but you can't just use it to project shit onto people like that. Saying "I don't feel comfortable giving money to a nazi" does not imply anything about music piracy in any way and it seems like you just wanted to pick the same pedantic fight/circle jerk about music piracy we have around here every second week when we could have a discussion about this instead. Dovey seems to think we have argued about the wall between artist and art enough around here not to bother but honestly it can't be nearly as many times as we've had the exact same discussion about music piracy.
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Quote from: Emilio
power metal set in the present is basically crunk

Hat

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I mean, Dovey seems to imply that Darryl is running some kind of prostitution ring and I can say that as much as I want to support my argument he is an amoral prick but luckily if either one of them calls me out it does not necessarily negate my argument because I've set it up as just one of the pillars of Darryls shitbaggery and I'm sure I can build plenty more.
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Quote from: Emilio
power metal set in the present is basically crunk

tommydski

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Look I'm not going to say that "seemed to imply" has absolutely no legitimate use in conversation, but you can't just use it to project shit onto people like that.

I think it was completely apparent from my earlier posts in this thread that I misunderstood what was being said on the first page, which was subsequently clarified by Beopuppy near enough immediately. The only reason I haven't said this until just now is because I wanted you to look as ridiculous as you are currently being.

You are being utterly ridiculous. You turned a simple misunderstanding which was near enough instantly ameliorated into a big deal using only your incredible ability to find something within a simple exchange to complain about over and over, with seemingly no interest in the fact that the potential argument was completely evaded by the people actually involved in the exchange. Anyone else in the entire world would have immediately seen that there was a minor misunderstanding of an utterly inconsequential nature which was only a point of contention for a very brief period of time.

Calm down. You are being ridiculous.

Quote from: Hat
it seems like you just wanted to pick the same pedantic fight/circle jerk about music piracy we have around here every second week when we could have a discussion about this instead.

It's funny because not only did this not occur to me at all, it was also the absolute opposite of my intentions.

What you have done here is make a minor misunderstanding of something someone wrote on an internet forum. Let's see if anyone dwells on it for an entire week for no readily apparent reason.
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One minute we're playing Mario Kart, the next my penis is in your mouth - it just happens.
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