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Author Topic: The Horror Discussion Thread  (Read 19793 times)

pogonrudie

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The Horror Discussion Thread
« on: 25 Sep 2009, 17:31 »

Warning: geeky rant ahead.


When you hear people get into a discussion about horror cinema (my beloved genre of choice), inevitably the phrase "Master Of Horror" will get bounced around. And 9 times out of 10, Wes Craven will be mentioned under that banner...which, I'm sorry, is just wrong. Let's take a look at his (slightly abbreviated) filmography, shall we?

- The Last House on the Left
- The Hills Have Eyes
- Deadly Blessing
- Swamp Thing
- A Nightmare on Elm Street
- Deadly Friend
- The Hills Have Eyes Part II
- The Serpent and the Rainbow
- Shocker
- The People Under the Stairs
- Wes Craven's New Nightmare
- Vampire in Brooklyn
- Scream series
- Cursed
- Red Eye

Alright, now how many of these do you like? No forget that, how many of them do you LOVE? I'd list The Hills Have Eyes, A Nightmare On Elm Street and especially the little-seen The People Under The Stairs among his best works. Last House On The Left has it's fans, but to me it's only half a enjoyable film...once the parents really come into the picture I'm hooked, but everything before that is just boring exploitation and out-of-place Southern sheriff humor. And the Scream series never clicked with me, it always came across as too smug and *wink wink* for me. But besides that...what, Vampire In Brooklyn? Swamp Thing? That abortion of celluloid otherwise known as Cursed? Granted, both Red Eye and Serpent And The Rainbow start out promising, but fall apart like wet paper sacks towards the middle-end.

It's just a crime when you have genuine talents like John Carpenter and George Romero getting the shorter stick. Neither are devoid of crappy films (hello, Ghosts Of Mars and Land Of The Dead!)...but on the same hand, Craven never made The Thing or Creepshow.

Thoughts? Opinions? Am I right-on or a complete dunce?
« Last Edit: 09 Oct 2009, 00:11 by pogonrudie »
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RallyMonkey

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Re: Theory: Wes Craven is a goddamn hack.
« Reply #1 on: 25 Sep 2009, 19:21 »

Really, I don't like any of his movies outside of the Scream series, which are quite a bit of fun. Also, he made Cursed, and he can never be forgiven for that.
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Re: Theory: Wes Craven is a goddamn hack.
« Reply #2 on: 25 Sep 2009, 19:30 »

I've seen TWO of his movies.

Wasn't A Vampire in Brooklyn an Eddie Murphy movie?
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Re: Theory: Wes Craven is a goddamn hack.
« Reply #3 on: 25 Sep 2009, 20:34 »

Wes Craven is a hack

DUUUUUHHHHHHHH
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Re: Theory: Wes Craven is a goddamn hack.
« Reply #4 on: 25 Sep 2009, 22:10 »

lol Red Eye


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Re: Theory: Wes Craven is a goddamn hack.
« Reply #5 on: 25 Sep 2009, 22:37 »

In related news: Axl Rose is kind of a prick.

When I think of Master of Horror, I think Romero circa the sixties and seventies. Way back before he made shit like Land of the Dead.
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Re: Theory: Wes Craven is a goddamn hack.
« Reply #6 on: 25 Sep 2009, 22:53 »

When I think of Master of Horror, I thin



What I mean to say is tha



Look I




(Dario Argento motherfuckers)

(also seriously the only shots of argento films it is easy to find are shots of chicks
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Re: Theory: Wes Craven is a goddamn hack.
« Reply #7 on: 25 Sep 2009, 23:09 »

Also, Wes Cravens career arc is hardly unique. Look at other dudes who started in the same way as him around the same time, like John Carpenter and Tobe Hooper. There was a sort of magic window in the seventies in America, during the real hey-day of new, gritty, gorey horror films, where you could really make something original and shocking for a very small amount of money, and a lot of dudes launched careers off it that bottomed out when they ran out of ideas or, more accurately, the industry ran away from them (Tobe Hooper never really had a career but I was racking my brains). A kind of similiar thing has happened with Romero as well actually; the more money and technology these dudes get their hands on, and, in fact, the older they get, the worse the stuff they churn out becomes. Maybe the problem is, these guys only really made their films so gritty and atmospheric and realistic back in the old days because that was all they could afford to do, and the cheesy high concept shit they rack out now is exactly what they would have done back then, given budgets and technology.

Also, from a film-making perspective, I don't think any of them are really that good at working with actors.
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Re: Theory: Wes Craven is a goddamn hack.
« Reply #8 on: 26 Sep 2009, 00:14 »

(Dario Argento motherfuckers)

I made it through, probably about an hour of Suspiria before falling asleep. The only movie I can think of right now that I would want to watch less than Suspiria, is the remake of Suspiria that the guy who directed Pineapple Express is making.
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pogonrudie

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Re: Theory: Wes Craven is a goddamn hack.
« Reply #9 on: 26 Sep 2009, 00:39 »

Yeah, as much as I love Argento, Suspiria really is a slog. I mean, it looks great, but so does all of his films. It's all about Deep Red anyways.

Also, from a film-making perspective, I don't think any of them are really that good at working with actors.
I disagree with this, I've always loved how Romero wrings naturalistic performances from unknown casts (particularly Dawn Of The Dead). Or what about Kurt Russel in any of the films he did with Carpenter?

And speaking of John Carpenter, has anyone seen his "Cigarette Burns" episode of the Masters Of Horror series? That alone shows that despite the string of bad features, he can still be a fucking genius when he wants to.
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Re: Theory: Wes Craven is a goddamn hack.
« Reply #10 on: 26 Sep 2009, 02:42 »

I'd say aside from Suspiria, Argento's pretty hacky. I mean what else has he made that's actually been good. Very, very little. For some reason all the name-brand American horror guys get shat upon for making a good flick or two and then a thousand shitty films but whenever Argento comes up the only thing he ever touched was Suspiria.

I'd say Carpenter is both capable of churning out solid films and was pretty okay with actors. I mean he worked several times with Kurt Russell on seriously fun movies (The Thing and Big Trouble In Little China, the latter of which freaked me the fuck out as a kid, ironically enough)

None of these fuckheads have the hit-to-miss ratio of David Cronenberg, though. Cronenberg's a fucking genius. Go watch The Brood, right now.
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pogonrudie

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Re: Theory: Wes Craven is a goddamn hack.
« Reply #11 on: 26 Sep 2009, 03:11 »

I'd say aside from Suspiria, Argento's pretty hacky. I mean what else has he made that's actually been good.
Tenebrae, Deep Red, Phenomena (aka Creepers) and his first film, The Bird With The Crystal Plumage. (I'd actually name Suspiria as one of his worst films.) I agree that he gets quite overrated, but just not to the agree that Craven does. At least Argento has a very distinct look and style to his works, which you can't say for Craven.

But when it comes to Italian Giallo auteurs, I'd take Mario Bava or Lucio Fulci over him anytime, anyways.

And I agree totally on Cronenberg. I can't think of a film of his that I've disliked, besides eXistenZ and Crash...which honestly aren't horrible at all, they just did nothing for me.
« Last Edit: 26 Sep 2009, 03:13 by pogonrudie »
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Re: Theory: Wes Craven is a goddamn hack.
« Reply #12 on: 26 Sep 2009, 05:18 »

Fulci better than Argento?

Suspiria a SLOG?

Maybe you guys don't like films?
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Re: Theory: Wes Craven is a goddamn hack.
« Reply #13 on: 26 Sep 2009, 08:41 »

The only movie I can think of right now that I would want to watch less than Suspiria, is the remake of Suspiria that the guy who directed Pineapple Express is making.

Have you seen any of his movies aside from 'Pineapple Express'?  He's probably one of the most talented directors going these days.
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Re: Theory: Wes Craven is a goddamn hack.
« Reply #14 on: 26 Sep 2009, 10:24 »

Even if he was a genius, he can't make that movie good.
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Re: Theory: Wes Craven is a goddamn hack.
« Reply #15 on: 26 Sep 2009, 15:10 »

I always find it slightly unsettling how eager Dario Arento is to see his daughter naked.
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Re: Theory: Wes Craven is a goddamn hack.
« Reply #16 on: 26 Sep 2009, 17:40 »

I always find it slightly unsettling how eager Dario Arento is to see his daughter naked.

Why?  He's proud of everything he's created.
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pogonrudie

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Re: Theory: Wes Craven is a goddamn hack.
« Reply #17 on: 26 Sep 2009, 17:47 »

I don't think it's a stretch to say I'd go incestuous for Asia Argento.

...I mean, what?

The only movie I can think of right now that I would want to watch less than Suspiria, is the remake of Suspiria that the guy who directed Pineapple Express is making.

Have you seen any of his movies aside from 'Pineapple Express'?  He's probably one of the most talented directors going these days.
Very true, George Washington is a masterpiece.
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Re: Theory: Wes Craven is a goddamn hack.
« Reply #18 on: 26 Sep 2009, 18:18 »

Asia Argento sounds a lot like something I would find in a spice cabinet.
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Re: Theory: Wes Craven is a goddamn hack.
« Reply #19 on: 27 Sep 2009, 10:53 »

hey guys. I am not much into horror films but I have to say May scared the shit out of me, which is what a good horror movie is supposed to do, right?
admittedly I haven't seen anything else by Lucky McKee so the rest of his films could be complete shit, but that one would probably still make up for them.
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pogonrudie

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Re: Theory: Wes Craven is a goddamn hack.
« Reply #20 on: 27 Sep 2009, 13:43 »

I actually have yet to see May, but his episode for Masters Of Horror (Sick Girl) is just fantastic...one of the most twisted, bizarrely original things I've ever seen.
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Re: Theory: Wes Craven is a goddamn hack.
« Reply #21 on: 29 Sep 2009, 08:29 »

I love May. You should definitely watch it. One of the absolute best horror films ever.

As far as Wes Craven goes, I dunno. He can definitely direct.. anybody see his submission in Paris Je T'aime? I also like Red Eye a lot (but mostly only because Cillian Murphy is fucking awesome) and of coures A Nightmare. Some of his stuff bores me though.
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pogonrudie

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Re: Theory: Wes Craven is a goddamn hack.
« Reply #22 on: 29 Sep 2009, 15:07 »

I was seriously digging on Red Eye for the majority of it's running time. Cillian was great as you mentioned, perfectly eerie. Plus he had great chemistry with Rachel McAdams, it was very entertaining to watch them inhabit those roles. But then (MILD SPOILERS AHEAD) it just goes all slasher film in it's final reel, with Murphy's character becoming more unstoppable killing machine than man. Which would be fine if it wasn't so damned over-the-top.

It's a shame because I don't hate Wes himself; he always seems like a down-to-earth, humble guy. So I'm always rooting for him to make a cinematic comeback. (And I doubt Scream 4 is going to be that.)
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Re: Theory: Wes Craven is a goddamn hack.
« Reply #23 on: 29 Sep 2009, 20:12 »

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pogonrudie

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Re: Theory: Wes Craven is a goddamn hack.
« Reply #24 on: 29 Sep 2009, 20:25 »

I really wish that I was.
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Re: Theory: Wes Craven is a goddamn hack.
« Reply #25 on: 29 Sep 2009, 20:38 »

I'm not sure what's more horrifying: the fact that there is in fact a Scream 4 in production or the fact that Courtney Cox, Neve Campbell and David Arquette are all on board. Good lord.
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pogonrudie

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Re: Theory: Wes Craven is a goddamn hack.
« Reply #26 on: 30 Sep 2009, 04:23 »

Well come on, what's the last thing you saw any of them in? Or for that matter, what's the last good thing you saw any of them in? They're just where they belong.
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Re: Theory: Wes Craven is a goddamn hack.
« Reply #27 on: 30 Sep 2009, 20:13 »

Say what you will about David Arquette, but 8 Legged Freaks was a masterpiece of cinema.
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Re: Theory: Wes Craven is a goddamn hack.
« Reply #28 on: 01 Oct 2009, 08:58 »

Didn't your mother ever tell you that it's not nice to tell lies.
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Re: Theory: Wes Craven is a goddamn hack.
« Reply #29 on: 01 Oct 2009, 10:13 »

8 Legged Freaks was an enormously entertaining bad horror film.
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Re: Theory: Wes Craven is a goddamn hack.
« Reply #30 on: 01 Oct 2009, 16:38 »

Never considered 8 legged freaks to be a horror film. Then again I think spiders are sorta cool.
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Re: Theory: Wes Craven is a goddamn hack.
« Reply #31 on: 01 Oct 2009, 19:06 »

Agreed, it really feels more like a Joe Dante-esque B-movie romp to me.
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Re: Theory: Wes Craven is a goddamn hack.
« Reply #32 on: 03 Oct 2009, 00:00 »

look i didn't read the thread past khar's excellent post about the fact that basically money makes you complacent BUT i swear to god none of you better have dissed john carpenter because before he got sucky he got awesome and he wrote and sang the theme to Big Trouble In Little China
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Re: Theory: Wes Craven is a goddamn hack.
« Reply #33 on: 04 Oct 2009, 11:50 »

I second May being an awesome and definitely worth a watch. Last House on the Left was actually a very good movie. The Original i refuse to see the remake. As for the others Nightmare on Elm Street was a classic and so was Swamp Thing. Yes they are cheesy in retrospect but still at the time they were great movies. Red Eye i could care less about. I think Wes Craven died for me sometime during the 90's.
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Re: Theory: Wes Craven is a goddamn hack.
« Reply #34 on: 05 Oct 2009, 19:44 »

clive barker has his moments
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Re: Theory: Wes Craven is a goddamn hack.
« Reply #35 on: 05 Oct 2009, 20:24 »

Speaking of Barker, has anyone seen that new film based on one of his short stories, The Midnight Meat Train? I watched it the other day knowing nothing going on, and I was pleasantly surprised. Clever, well-shot stuff with a great left-field ending. If anybody has Fear.net OnDemand on their cable service, that's how I watched it.
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Re: Theory: Wes Craven is a goddamn hack.
« Reply #36 on: 06 Oct 2009, 01:47 »

look i didn't read the thread past khar's excellent post about the fact that basically money makes you complacent BUT i swear to god none of you better have dissed john carpenter because before he got sucky he got awesome and he wrote and sang the theme to Big Trouble In Little China
I can't hate John Carpenter. I haven't even seen The Thing, but I have seen Big Trouble in Little China, both Escape movies (sure, LA wasn't as good, but the ending was amazing, and it was the first one I saw, it was just ridiculous over the top '90s awesome), and They Live, I just can't hate someone that has made all of those wonderful movies.
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Re: Theory: Wes Craven is a goddamn hack.
« Reply #37 on: 06 Oct 2009, 03:53 »

If you liked the Midnight Meat train then read the short story. Its on the internet and goes into more detail about why he does the things he does.
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Re: Theory: Wes Craven is a goddamn hack.
« Reply #38 on: 06 Oct 2009, 09:27 »

I can't hate John Carpenter. I haven't even seen The Thing, but I have seen Big Trouble in Little China, both Escape movies (sure, LA wasn't as good, but the ending was amazing, and it was the first one I saw, it was just ridiculous over the top '90s awesome), and They Live, I just can't hate someone that has made all of those wonderful movies.

If you discount his made for TV films (which I haven't seen, they could be banging for all I know) Carpenter's early career is nothing short of stunning. He starts with Dark Star, then Assault On Precinct 13, Halloween, The Fog, Escape From New York and The Thing. He only has a drop of quality with Christine, which is understandable when you've been knocking out stone cold classics for about a decade, and then doing some genuinely brilliant soundtracks for them to cap it off. Seriously, how many other directors can not only write their own soundtracks but write legitimately classic ones? His reputation as a patchy director is really quite undeserved since it comes only from his admittedly wonky '90s period, so after around 20 years of superb films. But even that produced some fun (Vampires) along with the genuinely awful (In The Mouth Of Madness), and it's worth remembering that he hasn't actually made a film for eight years now.
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Re: Theory: Wes Craven is a goddamn hack.
« Reply #39 on: 06 Oct 2009, 09:58 »

it's worth remembering that he hasn't actually made a film for eight years now.
He's actually done some really good teevee work during that time. You should see his episodes of Masters of Horror. Some of the best of that series.
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Re: Theory: Wes Craven is a goddamn hack.
« Reply #40 on: 06 Oct 2009, 12:14 »

But even that produced some fun (Vampires) along with the genuinely awful (In The Mouth Of Madness)
What. I think you have this backwards...
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Re: Theory: Wes Craven is a goddamn hack.
« Reply #41 on: 06 Oct 2009, 12:45 »

Admittedly it's been years since I saw In The Mouth of Madness, but I remember it as turgid mess where Sam Raimi tries his damnedest to make you think you're watching something compelling instead of half-baked. Vampires I have seen reasonably recently, and it's good fun. Not up to the standards of his early work by any stretch, but it's a fun enough little romp.
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Re: Theory: Wes Craven is a goddamn hack.
« Reply #42 on: 08 Oct 2009, 15:28 »

...Sam Raimi?

And I'd cite In The Mouth Of Madness as one of the best Lovcraftian horror films. It's not based directly on anything he wrote, but his fingerprints are all over the flick.


edit: oh, and I second the love for his Masters Of Horror episode, "Cigarette Burns". Truly clever stuff.
« Last Edit: 08 Oct 2009, 15:30 by pogonrudie »
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Re: Theory: Wes Craven is a goddamn hack.
« Reply #43 on: 08 Oct 2009, 17:15 »

I saw The People Under the Stairs on Svengoolie once and it was so unbelievably bad. I mean it has to be one of the worst modern films. I do not watch that many movies though so I might be underestimating how bad they sometimes get. I haven't seen most of the other films in the OP though, but the couple others that I have seen have been bad.
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Re: Theory: Wes Craven is a goddamn hack.
« Reply #44 on: 08 Oct 2009, 18:22 »

I guess if you like Lovecraft, Stuart Gordon's a pretty ace director. I think he did Dreams in the Witch House for the Masters of Horror collection, he directed Reanimator and outside of Lovecraft he made the awesome black (black black) comedy Stuck, which is based on that story some years ago of the woman who ran someone over with her car and left him to die lodged in the windshield of her car for several days. It takes a bleak story and just makes it so much meaner.
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Re: The Horror Thread
« Reply #45 on: 09 Oct 2009, 00:10 »

I really want to see Stuck, I've always thought of Gordon as a real underrated filmmaker. Outside of Re-Animator, Dagon is another great Lovecraft adaptation (and much closer to the original story than Re-Animator). I also loooove a little-seen flick of his from the mid-90s called Castle Freak. Another in the long line of great Jeffrey Combs performances, with a terrific monster.
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Re: The Horror Thread
« Reply #46 on: 09 Oct 2009, 00:11 »

Oh, also I changed the name of the thread to reflect more what it seems to have become. Hope nobody minds :)
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Re: The Horror Discussion Thread
« Reply #47 on: 09 Oct 2009, 01:30 »

If we're just gonna talk horror now, I've got to mention Let the Right One In. While not inherently "scary" it's still creepy as fuck and brilliantly made. One of my favorite movies of all time.






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Re: The Horror Discussion Thread
« Reply #48 on: 09 Oct 2009, 02:33 »

What an ending, too.
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Re: The Horror Discussion Thread
« Reply #49 on: 09 Oct 2009, 02:37 »

omfg yes.

Also I looked up what they tapped to each other in the train - it was the word "kiss."

It's just simply stunning how emotionally invested you get into both Eli and Oskar even though they're killing with absolutely no remorse or second thoughts about the matter.

I need to watch this again.
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