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Author Topic: The Science Discussion Thread  (Read 16668 times)

AanAllein

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Re: The Science Discussion Thread
« Reply #100 on: 30 Sep 2009, 19:13 »

I don't think (butting in on the argument here) that just understanding science necessarily makes one a scientist. Surely a scientist needs to actually apply to scientific method to some extent, whether it's developing hypotheses, testing those hypotheses with experiments, whatever. I mean, I have a science degree, that doesn't make me a scientist even if I do understand science.
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Bastardous Bassist

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Re: The Science Discussion Thread
« Reply #101 on: 30 Sep 2009, 19:18 »

This, and also:

I was about to use a mechanic as an example, but I figured that might not go over so well, since I was already pretty down on doctors.  The mechanic knows that the parts fit together and knows that the combustion happens in the cylinder to make it expand.  The mechanic does not know why combustion happens or why it causes the cylinder to expand, or even why it causes the engine to heat up.  Speaking of heating up, the mechanic knows that the radiator gets heat away from the engine, but the mechanic does not know that the reason radiators exist is because convection is a far superior way of transferring heat than conduction.

Isn't his point more that medical doctors are often also involved in research, and can thereby be correctly defined as scientists? Hospitals have research wings too.

It's rare.  Most doctors do their job and go home.  Occasionally you get someone who's involved on the clinical side of a trial, but that person is usually just a data-taker.  The actual science is being done by someone else.  Now, this is based on personal experience, so I've not met a medical doctor who does science, but that also means they're on the rare side.

(one of these days I'll be able to post without someone saying something interesting first)
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Bastardous Bassist

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Re: The Science Discussion Thread
« Reply #102 on: 30 Sep 2009, 19:37 »

Come back when you can play with the big dogs.  I'll still be here hating my life and being bitter about people who don't have to worry about propagation equations and eigenstates.

p.s.  Firefox spell-check recognizes "eigenstates" as a word.  I hate my life slightly less now.
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Reed

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Re: The Science Discussion Thread
« Reply #103 on: 30 Sep 2009, 20:09 »

Just about every class I took as an undergrad was with pre-med students. Barring only a couple of exceptions none of them were interested in the science at all. They really don't care. The vast majority of them were just going through the motions so they could get good enough grades to get into the med schools they wanted to.
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calenlass

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Re: The Science Discussion Thread
« Reply #104 on: 30 Sep 2009, 21:15 »

I keep meaning to post this incredibly relevant video and forgetting.

this one
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Re: The Science Discussion Thread
« Reply #105 on: 30 Sep 2009, 21:19 »

Damn.  I'll need to get me a lab coat, then I'll be able to outsmart anybody.
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Reed

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Re: The Science Discussion Thread
« Reply #106 on: 30 Sep 2009, 21:25 »

I have a lab coat! And it's covered with bacterial stains, so it makes me look extra smart!

Also, can we talk about science? I have my biophysical techniques exam on friday and i slept through the AU lectures, so guys, what are the main differences between sedimentation velocity and sedimentation equilibrium analytical ultracentrifugation? Which equations describe them again? Fuck, I don't want to go through the online notes.
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Bastardous Bassist

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Re: The Science Discussion Thread
« Reply #107 on: 30 Sep 2009, 21:36 »

I think you're going to have to, because the only thing I know about sediment is that it's carried by rivers sometimes.  Now, give me some perturbation theory, or some Maxwell's equation questions and I'll be all over that shit.
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Verergoca

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Re: The Science Discussion Thread
« Reply #108 on: 01 Oct 2009, 01:29 »

Uhm, sedimentation velocity is the speed by which a substance sedimentates in one of them fancy cone shaped sedimentation jars ? Say you have 10gr/l and in an hour 5 gr sedimentates, then the sedimentation velocity would be 5gr/hr (shocking eh)

Also, the only proper labcoatstains are coffeestains! (ok, and algea stains)
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calenlass

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Re: The Science Discussion Thread
« Reply #109 on: 01 Oct 2009, 01:38 »

AND FISHY STAINS


OMNOMNOMNOMNOM
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MarkTBSc

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Re: The Science Discussion Thread
« Reply #110 on: 01 Oct 2009, 02:26 »

Has anyone here read "An Introduction to Planetary Defense: A Study of Modern Warfare Applied to Extra-Terrestrial Invasion" by Travis S Taylor and Bob Boan? It's a scholarly work that actually takes an in-depth look at the possibilities, probabilities, weapons, strategy and tactics of an alien invasion of Earth and attempts to foster discussion and preparation on the subject. It's on my 'to buy' list, but it's a little expensive for a casual read. I've read some of Travis Taylor's collaborations with John Ringo and the science he comes out with certainly seems believable.
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AanAllein

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Re: The Science Discussion Thread
« Reply #111 on: 01 Oct 2009, 04:08 »

Also, the only proper labcoatstains are coffeestains! (ok, and algea stains)

The only lab coat I own (owned?) was literally drenched in coffee stains, because a first chem prac involved extracting caffeine from coffee, and an overly powerful lab tap meant i was covered with the stuff. Of course, I explained them away as blood stains
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David_Dovey

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Re: SCIENCE PEOPLE, ALL OF SCIENCE
« Reply #112 on: 01 Oct 2009, 05:49 »

Punnet squares

I do this with my g/f all the time! Although neither of us are biologists; she is just finishing up her biomedical science degree and I am a dumbass. Professionally.
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jhocking

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Re: The Science Discussion Thread
« Reply #113 on: 01 Oct 2009, 06:04 »

a first chem prac involved extracting caffeine from coffee

Ah that takes me back. I remember back in college when I photoshopped together a hilarious collage to illustrate how HPLC works, with stuff like a mosquito injecting the liquid into the line. And then during the presentation that file got corrupted and the projected image was totally garbled. I got an A on the presentation because the professor was impressed by how I smoothly improvised over the technical problems, where most people would be all nervous and flustered.

Spluff

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Re: SCIENCE PEOPLE, ALL OF SCIENCE
« Reply #114 on: 01 Oct 2009, 06:28 »

...and I am a dumbass. Professionally.

Dovey you need to set me up in this industry, hook me up with some contacts. You know I'm qualified, man, you know I'm good for it.
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Aimless

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Re: SCIENCE PEOPLE, ALL OF SCIENCE
« Reply #115 on: 01 Oct 2009, 06:54 »

I'm starting to think that you are thinking of a scientist differently from what I am thinking of as a scientist. A scientist answers questions about how the world works that were previously unanswered.  I do not want a doctor doing things that are not know whether or not they work (if it was know, it wouldn't be science!). I want a doctor fixing people, and I call someone who fixes things a technician.

Like I've said and others have also pointed out, being a doctor doesn't preclude also being a scientist eg. in the sense of being someone who conducts research. Never mind that much of clinical medicine relies on hypothesis-driven investigation as well.

A doctor that doesn't have a thorough understanding of the science of medicine can be severely impaired in his clinical work because it will be more difficult for him to appropriately assess his patients and find the best possible treatments. Just because a treatment has been approved doesn't mean it's right for your patient, and getting a good idea of when it may be inappropriate or just uncertain requires having an understanding of the science behind the treatment as well as of what the clinical research has shown.

Quote
Also, all technicians are fellow human beings.  McDonald's burger flippers are fellow human beings.  Not all of them are compassionate, but neither are all doctors compassionate.

At the same time, providing that kind of support is not a required part of the job of a McDonald's burger-flipper, while it is often central to the job of a practicing physician, eg. any primary care physician. You're right, not all doctors are compassionate, but nor am I talking about all doctors.

Quote
Finally, in the above, I mean medical doctors.  I just didn't want to keep differentiating between them and other doctors.

Yes, I am also talking about medical doctors.

Isn't his point more that medical doctors are often also involved in research, and can thereby be correctly defined as scientists? Hospitals have research wings too.

This, and also:

I was about to use a mechanic as an example, but I figured that might not go over so well, since I was already pretty down on doctors.  The mechanic knows that the parts fit together and knows that the combustion happens in the cylinder to make it expand.  The mechanic does not know why combustion happens or why it causes the cylinder to expand, or even why it causes the engine to heat up.  Speaking of heating up, the mechanic knows that the radiator gets heat away from the engine, but the mechanic does not know that the reason radiators exist is because convection is a far superior way of transferring heat than conduction.

[...]

It's rare.  Most doctors do their job and go home.  Occasionally you get someone who's involved on the clinical side of a trial, but that person is usually just a data-taker.  The actual science is being done by someone else.  Now, this is based on personal experience, so I've not met a medical doctor who does science, but that also means they're on the rare side.

Doctors doing research are pretty common here. If you were to see research as a second specialty then it would probably be among the most common specialities in Sweden. I think the percentage of doctors actively doing research in the US is something like 2% of the entire pool, so I guess you're right in that it's pretty rare where you are (although I'm guessing comparable to some of the rarer specialties?). That's unfortunate for you guys, I'd say. Last I heard, the total number of physicians actively doing research in the US has been more or less constant for a couple of decades, even though the pool of physicians has grown much larger... that's crazy.

I think it might be more informative to look at the prevalence of physicians among people working with medical research.

EDIT: As for your examples with mechanics and their knowledge... here I thought we were talking about understanding and about method rather than about knowledge. The average microbiologist would probably be on the same level as that mechanic wrt his knowledge of the merits of conduction and convection, but he could still be a scientist doing research in microbiology.
« Last Edit: 01 Oct 2009, 07:00 by Aimless »
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Reed

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Re: The Science Discussion Thread
« Reply #116 on: 01 Oct 2009, 09:57 »

Also, the only proper labcoatstains are coffeestains! (ok, and algea stains)

So. Wrong.

Shit, I was going to take a picture of my lab coat, but I just realized that I have bleached it since the last time I taught. All that's left are a couple of iodine stains and a faded crystal violet stain.

Also, I know the basics of AU, I was looking for something more specific, like equations for fitting SE data.
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Bastardous Bassist

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Re: SCIENCE PEOPLE, ALL OF SCIENCE
« Reply #117 on: 01 Oct 2009, 10:34 »

A doctor that doesn't have a thorough understanding of the science of medicine can be severely impaired in his clinical work because it will be more difficult for him to appropriately assess his patients and find the best possible treatments. Just because a treatment has been approved doesn't mean it's right for your patient, and getting a good idea of when it may be inappropriate or just uncertain requires having an understanding of the science behind the treatment as well as of what the clinical research has shown.

I think it's easier if you have an understanding, but most doctors I've encountered have just memorized sets of rules about what goes on.  Thinking is strongly discouraged because it can lead to an unorthodox treatment that might not work and result in a malpractice lawsuit.  This is the United States we're talking about.

Doctors doing research are pretty common here. If you were to see research as a second specialty then it would probably be among the most common specialities in Sweden. I think the percentage of doctors actively doing research in the US is something like 2% of the entire pool, so I guess you're right in that it's pretty rare where you are (although I'm guessing comparable to some of the rarer specialties?). That's unfortunate for you guys, I'd say. Last I heard, the total number of physicians actively doing research in the US has been more or less constant for a couple of decades, even though the pool of physicians has grown much larger... that's crazy.

This is why we've been having an argument?  FUCK!

EDIT: As for your examples with mechanics and their knowledge... here I thought we were talking about understanding and about method rather than about knowledge. The average microbiologist would probably be on the same level as that mechanic wrt his knowledge of the merits of conduction and convection, but he could still be a scientist doing research in microbiology.

I do optics, and I've needed to know the relative merits of conduction vs. convection.  With research, one must understand the underlying mechanism in order to come up with a way to do new things.  Sure, a microbiologist might not know how a piece of equipment works, but the microbiologist uses that piece of equipment and isn't doing research on it.  Even then, sometimes actually understanding how the piece of equipment works might be necessary to know why one is getting anomalous readings.  The point of being a scientist is understanding your system well enough to describe why it's not acting like people think it should, because otherwise you haven't done science, just potentially made a mistake.
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supersheep

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Re: The Science Discussion Thread
« Reply #118 on: 01 Oct 2009, 11:56 »

Is this a case of words meaning different things in different languages? I mean, in a lot of continental Europe the term "historical scientist" would not be out of place because the word means something different to what we mean by science (at least this is what the historical scientists I have been reading have said).

I am not a scientist, though.
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Re: The Science Discussion Thread
« Reply #119 on: 01 Oct 2009, 11:56 »

I keep meaning to post this incredibly relevant video and forgetting.

this one

I figure this one is very relevant too.
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Bastardous Bassist

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Re: The Science Discussion Thread
« Reply #120 on: 01 Oct 2009, 14:22 »

I am not a scientist, though.

What are you doing here, then?  Get out!  I think you might be right, but I also think there's a bigger cultural difference of doctors actually being legitimate research scientists not in the US.  It is a concept that is foreign to me, since the doctors over here are mostly morons with connections and money.  I've met at least one quite smart person who wanted to go into doctorin', and I assume there are others.
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MarkTBSc

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Re: The Science Discussion Thread
« Reply #121 on: 01 Oct 2009, 14:38 »

The one that always gets my goat is "Political Science". How many so-called Political Scientists have you ever seen testing their theories by experimentation? I could maybe accept them as Philosophers but scientists? Not a chance.

"My PhD thesis is that long term socio-economic change can be be achieved by assassination of chosen political figures. I therefore propose to murder fifty carefully selected international politicians and observe the result. By the time I get out of jail the world should have altered sufficiently to include direct observations in my conclusion!"
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Bastardous Bassist

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Re: The Science Discussion Thread
« Reply #122 on: 01 Oct 2009, 14:41 »

By that logic, though, astronomers are rarely scientists.
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MarkTBSc

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Re: The Science Discussion Thread
« Reply #123 on: 01 Oct 2009, 14:46 »

Fair point. I guess there's no way to say a Political Scientist isn't a scientist without ruling out some other class of scientist.

Doesn't mean I have to like it.
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Tom

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Re: The Science Discussion Thread
« Reply #124 on: 01 Oct 2009, 14:50 »

I for one, intend to get a B MedSci before I try and get my B Medicene / B Surgery so that I can better understand the science so resultantly I'm a more effective doctor.

Man, does this feel like a useless post.
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vegkitkat

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Re: The Science Discussion Thread
« Reply #125 on: 01 Oct 2009, 15:47 »

If I had known there was a possibility of posting lab coat pictures, I would have brought mine home today.

p.s. I'm a chemist! Woooooo!
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Re: The Science Discussion Thread
« Reply #126 on: 01 Oct 2009, 16:52 »

What is up, lab coat thread.



My lab coat looks pretty clean here.

In reality it had a multitude of stains, mainly bromophenol blu and xylene cyanol (I ran a lot of gels and would always dunk my sleeves in the dye by accident).

p.s. woooooooooooo
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With cake ownership set to C and cake consumption set to K, then C + K = 0.  So indeed as one consumes a cake, one simultaneously deprives oneself of cake ownership. 

Bastardous Bassist

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Re: The Science Discussion Thread
« Reply #127 on: 01 Oct 2009, 20:26 »

Man, my "lab coat" is whatever jacket I wear to the office, because it's fucking cold in the lab.  We're on the same ventilation system as some other labs that actually do have to be kept fairly cold, which sucks extra because my office is always crazy hot.  I don't really have to worry about spilling anything, though, so that helps.
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Reed

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Re: The Science Discussion Thread
« Reply #128 on: 01 Oct 2009, 20:49 »

I've only worn a lab coat while teaching because we are required to. And because our students get the stain everywhere. In fact, I don't even wear proper PPE when using hazardous chemicals in lab!
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Bastardous Bassist

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Re: The Science Discussion Thread
« Reply #129 on: 01 Oct 2009, 20:53 »

If I were using hazardous chemicals, I'd probably wear my chef's jacket (from an old job), because it's made to prevent burning and chemicals scare me.  Of course, so does electricity and heat, yet I'm currently working in a lab with crazy power supplies everywhere and I've previously worked in a kitchen, so...

I do wear laser safety glasses all the time, but those are pretty required.
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ViolentDove

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Re: The Science Discussion Thread
« Reply #130 on: 01 Oct 2009, 22:11 »

One of our honours students once came in on the weekend to do work, and there was no-one around. She started a phenol-chloroform extraction. She woke up on the lab floor some hours later and it was dark.

She'd passed out due to chloroform fumes, which isn't supposed to happen if you use a fume hood correctly. Luckily she didn't spill any phenol on herself... but yeah, there's a good reason for most safety gear and protocols, I think, when dealing stuff like that.
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With cake ownership set to C and cake consumption set to K, then C + K = 0.  So indeed as one consumes a cake, one simultaneously deprives oneself of cake ownership. 

MarkTBSc

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Re: The Science Discussion Thread
« Reply #131 on: 02 Oct 2009, 00:28 »

Better than the accident one of our units had a year or two back. Guy was filling Liquid nitrogen dewars and passed out.

He didn't wake up.

The woman who found him? She passed out too. Thankfully the guy who found both of them took a deep breath before coming in and managed to drag her out. She did wake up but it was a close run thing.
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Bastardous Bassist

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Re: The Science Discussion Thread
« Reply #132 on: 02 Oct 2009, 08:03 »

The thing is, I don't use chemicals.  I don't even use high-powered lasers.  Some people in the building do, and therefore nobody in the building is allowed to work alone.  Yay government labs!
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Re: The Science Discussion Thread
« Reply #133 on: 02 Oct 2009, 09:19 »

Meh, I don't use chloroform or anything like that (we buy those kits with nifty little columns for plasmid and genomic preps). I'm more referring to the solutions I have to make using concentrated phosphoric or hydrochloric acids. I've gotten a few chemical burns from those. Also, I don't always use gloves when I'm pouring acrylamide gels or agarose gels containing ethidium bromide.
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Quote from: meebo
[22:49] Quietus: I'm personally imagining a white supremacist locked in his basement, furtively listening to Parliament on headphones
[22:49] Quietus: "Oh, lawd, why must them coons rock me so"
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