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[KharBevNor]

When I was a teenager, I spent a lot of time honing my sense of what is Goth and what is Not Goth (pathosception). I had plenty of time to spend thinking on this subject whilst I was dying my hair, painting my nails, doing my makeup and photoshopping pictures of myself for my Vampirefreaks profile.



Pictures like this.

Nowadays I have pretty much retired from the whole goth game and gone to stud, as it were. I sometimes wear clothes that are dark grey or blue, and my black leather trenchcoats have seen better days. But I still have my old faculties pretty much all in order, so I thought I would share them with the forums as a sort of public service. It seems to me that these days there is a lot of confusion as to what is and is not Goth, and I want to help put that right. Basically, all you gotta do is say a thing, or post a picture, and I will tell you whether it is



or



I will also try and explain why.

Ask quick before I drink too much.

[E. Spaceman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsCXZczTQXo

[BeoPuppy]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Within_temptation

[KharBevNor]

@ Emilio:

This was a hard one. There are many goth elements here; the spells, mansions etc. Unfortunately, the music is just too funky to make the cut. Also, he doesn't want to be hurt. This is not goth at all: he should be craving suffering like a fat girl craves cakes. If you put it on straight 4/4 beat and had some malnourished warlock from leads playing icy guitar it would be totes goth, but I'm going to have to go with

[the_pied_piper]

?

[pilsner]

Fail.  Should have used this one:



It's 900% gothier!!!!

[jhocking]

I have a friend who was goth before but I think now she outgrew the whole goth thing and actively makes fun of it (ie. she pulled a Dora.)  For example, here is her website:
http://www.spookygirl.net/

Do you think my supposition is correct?

[KharBevNor]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Within_temptation

Gothic, but not goth

[KharBevNor]

?

Based on how much I want to bone Dita Von Teese there is no way she can't be goth.

[KharBevNor]

Fail.  Should have used this one:



It's 900% gothier!!!!

I could actually argue that Brian Warner is pretty goth. For a start, he obviously really, really likes David Bowie, and he's boned Dita Von Teese. These are very powerful arguments. Unfortunately, the dude just tries too hard, and never gets it right. The problem is, he always just looks like a weekender: he's got a norm haircut, and he seems to just wear normal clothes that are black, which isn't goth. A real goth has got to look like, say, an insane fin de siecle french artist who murders prostitutes, or a frankenstein monster made from parts of former bassists from Christian Death who just ate a kilo of hairspray, or a black and white photo of Sigue Sigue Sputnik.

[pilsner]

Well played, sir.

[KharBevNor]

I have a friend who was goth before but I think now she outgrew the whole goth thing and actively makes fun of it (ie. she pulled a Dora.)  For example, here is her website:
http://www.spookygirl.net/

Do you think my supposition is correct?

To a degree. She might just really like Lenore. You have to remember, that the cardinal rule of goth is that you should absolutely never ever self-identify as a goth, and if at all possible you should mock gothness. This is the thing that almost all teenage goths get wrong, even the ones who are mostly doing it right by wearing old army boots they buried in the back garden for two weeks instead of New Rocks and being able to have an intelligent discussion about which is the best XIII. Stoleti album*. If you call yourself a goth you essentially lost the goth game, unless you are really clever and take it to another level where you admit to being goth as a joke so you are not goth but are still goth all the same.






*Nosferatu or Metropolis.

[the_pied_piper]

?

[KharBevNor]

?

Pink satin sheets, Tim Burton toys, teddy bear, straight hair: total weekender. This barbie needs an undercut, a red velvet bedspread and a less dominatrixy lower half. It is a fact little understood by many that goth chicks do not have to dress like they have taken a pair of scissors to a 'SEXY WITCH' halloween costume. Indeed, they very rarely do, which is pretty good because goth chicks are just average ladies generally and most average ladies can't dress like novelty strippers and get away with it.

[Yayniall]

[McTaggart]

[KharBevNor]

I'm partial to the old-school, but that beard just ain't doing it for me. Maybe if the dude were destroying classical civilisation a little more? as it is,

[KharBevNor]

[Ballard]

[Blue Kitty]

Khar, you should have made a Visigoth label

[the_pied_piper]

(He is actually an Ostrogoth)

[Blue Kitty]

Oh.....man is my face red

[Damnable Fiend]

[KharBevNor]

Orcs are more of a power metal thing. Sometimes black metal. But always

[jhocking]

What if she is achieving many of her life goals? Aren't goths supposed to live in a pit of despair?

[Ballard]

[Alex C]

You have to remember, that the cardinal rule of goth is that you should absolutely never ever self-identify as a goth, and if at all possible you should mock gothness.

See this? I knew this rule. It's why I thought "Well played, sir," when I read this:

Nowadays I have pretty much retired from the whole goth game and gone to stud, as it were.

[KharBevNor]

Haha no.

[Christophe]

?

[Alex C]

I was seriously looking for that just now.

[KharBevNor]

This is an interesting one. The music of Placebo is certainly not goth, but it is goth friendly, much like the music of Kate Bush or the Eurythmics. Older goths would sciff at Placebo, of course, but most goths under the age of 25 have owned and liked at least one Placebo album at some point in thier lives.

As for the individuals, well, we've got some powerful plus points. Make up and ambiguous sexuality for instance; this is certainly more true of the earlier phases of Placebo. Given that no one in their might minds would try and argue that Robert Smith isn't goth* it could be hard for the layman to see why we can't come out and call Placebo goth. However, we have to look at the overall picture here. Problem is, Placebo are an NME band. No way round that, and the NME have never got goth. When Siouxsie and the Banshees, Joy Division and The Damned started hacking out the basic foundations of goth from the soft clay of post-punk back in the early eighties the NME tried to 'discover' the goth rock genre, and tried to call it 'positive punk', which really goes to show how fucking stupid they are. This association, at the end of the day, makes calling Placebo goth worryingly like calling Muse prog rock.





*Except Robert Smith, for obvious reasons.

[Emaline]

What about Depeche Mode? Everytime I go to the goth club they play them. Last time they played Depeche Mode, and Ladytron. Wtf. Are these bands goth?

[Damnable Fiend]

aw I got the shortest reply.  oh well.

[KharBevNor]

?

The death sound is the main goth in this whole area. But unfortunately, that area is in California. California had some goth chops back in the glory days of Death Rock, but since the nineties when you say California and Goth Rock together the sounds get all mangled and you actually say

Cleopatra Records

Ah yes, Cleopatra. The record label responsible for producing industrial rock tribute albums to Smashing Pumpkins and AC/DC. No real goth can admit to liking Cleopatra records since at least 1995, even if you own almost every album that has ever come out on the label (I know I do). This immediately makes the death sound suspect. it is no good being top goth if that is associated with Razed in Black's cover of Cherub Rock.

The other thing, is the death sound is certainly southern gothic, but that is really only tangential to goth. And the self-mutilation stunt is more GG Allin than Andrew Eldritch.

hmmn.



This is a matter for serious scientific research. Goth/not goth duality is only poorly understood.

[KharBevNor]

What about Depeche Mode? Everytime I go to the goth club they play them. Last time they played Depeche Mode, and Ladytron. Wtf. Are these bands goth?

k

Yeah, Depeche Mode are goth. Well, rather, the band themselves are not goth, but listening to them can be, if it is in the right context. It's a combination of the generally gloomy attitude, the good slow-dancing beats and the french name.



Ladytron though

[jhocking]

I hope you didn't miss my question, that is a key aspect of my understanding/misunderstanding goths.

[Alex C]

[KharBevNor]

Sorry Mr Hocking!

What if she is achieving many of her life goals? Aren't goths supposed to live in a pit of despair?

No, that's teenagers. Goths are supposed to work in graphic design and play bass for a band called Lucretia's Nightmare.

[Emaline]

Last time I went to the goth club, I wore a dress that was grey and black that I had bought at Old Navy, black tights, and yellow shoes. Do I fail?


Also, I know a lot of goths that work with programming. Is this an ok goth career?

[KharBevNor]

Now the thing about Type O Negative is take me Peter! Take me in your powerful arms and never let me go. Let us sing our pagan lovesongs like wolves howling in the carpathians! Let us stride the night like gods. so really they're never let me gooooo quite I want to drown in your eyeeees

[Alex C]

Yeah, I've always kind of argued that they're not really a goth band in terms of music style, but that doesn't really make Peter Steele less goth. It just gives him a firmer grip on his "I'm not goth" goth cred.

[Emaline]

Also, Belly Dancers. I'm told that these two scenes overlap so much and that is why so many goth girls are also belly dancers. Can you explain this to me? I never understood how belly dancers could be goth.

Also, why isn't Gaiman goth? I mean he did have a book called the Graveyard Book, and its about a little boy who is raised in a graveyard and cared for by a vampire.

Sorry I have so many questions.

[Alex C]

Gaiman is really more of a gigantic fantasy nerd than anything. That's not really the same as being goth.

[IronOxide]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUA6e-s2pBw

[KharBevNor]

Also, I know a lot of goths that work with programming. Is this an ok goth career?

That is one of the main goth careers. Goths who work outside the goth industry (alternative clothing stores, magazines, record labels, goth pubs etc.) normally prefer white collar jobs with no customer interaction. This is so they can have purple hair and scaffolding and not get fired. Other goths have learned to stealth effectively. The least goth job I have known a proper goth to have was either insurance broker or selling mobile phones.

@Alex: I would say that early to mid Type O Neg is goth metal. Not gothic metal, but goth. I would compare them with Moonspell, Tiamat, early Theatre of Tragedy etc. They have those bela lugosi vocals and a real sisters of mercy guitar tone going on at times. Of course, a goth purist would say that metal can never be goth, but most of the people who think like that entered a state of life in death when Bauhaus first split up, and were permanently put to their eternal rest with Rozz Williams.

[Alex C]

Yeah, the purity argument always left me wondering. Plus, I'm under 30, and I'm an American from the midwest, so I have deep misgivings about my ability to really discern goth from not goth, goofy Catholic upbringing and angsty teenage years aside.

[KharBevNor]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUA6e-s2pBw

The guy on the right is fairly alright. The girl is not goth at all. Neither is combichrist. Finally, they're not goth dancing.




The relationship between goth and rivet is very, very complex. I will try and elucidate as more examples emerge.

[pilsner]

Gaiman is really more of a gigantic fantasy nerd than anything. That's not really the same as being goth.

He's also dating Amanda Palmer.  Thereby living every fantasy nerd's dream.  



Dresden Dolls and Amanda Palmer are not goth in approximately the same way as Neil Gaiman, oddly enough.

[Ballard]

Neil Gaiman is dating Amanda Palmer?

This is kind of like Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt only with subculture heroes.

[pilsner]

Ever time I lucid dream I put myself between them on a California King and the three of us snuggle for hours.  Then they listen appreciatively to a novella I've been working on.  It's like fanfic but better.