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Author Topic: Inception  (Read 23354 times)

RallyMonkey

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Re: Inception
« Reply #50 on: 17 Jul 2010, 08:43 »

The biggest flaw I saw in the movie was the abundance of on-the-nose dialogue between DiCaprio and Page. It just seemed like anytime they were talking to each other, their dialogue consisted only of plot exposition.
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Avec

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Re: Inception
« Reply #51 on: 17 Jul 2010, 10:28 »

Despite me seeing the midnight showing high I was really satisfied with the movie and the plot in general. It didn't feel like a two and a half hour movie because you were consumed in the plot the entire time. I'm really looking forward to my second sober viewing.
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scarred

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Re: Inception
« Reply #52 on: 17 Jul 2010, 21:44 »

seeing this in like 40 minutes, so stoked
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scarred

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Re: Inception
« Reply #53 on: 18 Jul 2010, 02:00 »

OH MY FUCKING GOD
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scarred

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Re: Inception
« Reply #54 on: 18 Jul 2010, 12:17 »

i've never been in a packed theater where everyone collectively gasped and said "AWWWWW" as the film cut to black before.
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BrittanyMarie

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Re: Inception
« Reply #55 on: 18 Jul 2010, 15:29 »

i think i heard a bigger "aww!" gasp when we went to the opening of no country for old men, but that one was way more fucking frustrating
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Re: Inception
« Reply #56 on: 18 Jul 2010, 16:57 »

There were gasps at the end.

Holy crap, that was an amazing movie.
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jimbunny

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Re: Inception
« Reply #57 on: 18 Jul 2010, 18:20 »

The ending was kind of cheap. Come on.
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Re: Inception
« Reply #58 on: 18 Jul 2010, 18:39 »

Why? SPOIlER: Because everyone ended up ok? But the thing is, they left you not knowing if everyone was really ok or not, which is why I kind of liked it.
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scarred

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Re: Inception
« Reply #59 on: 18 Jul 2010, 19:07 »

Yeah seriously what the fuck is wrong with you
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knives

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Re: Inception
« Reply #60 on: 18 Jul 2010, 19:13 »

That ending is really the only way it could have have gone. Nothing else would've been dramatically sufficient or cause the audience to audibly gasp. It definitely helps to drag up discussion, sort of like eXistenZ or Videodrome.
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De_El

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Re: Inception
« Reply #61 on: 18 Jul 2010, 19:53 »

I just got back from seeing this. I liked it! In terms of narrative structure and filmmaking technique it was almost cheekily self-conscious, but the cheek was kind of charming. I dunno if the way it was self-conscious would be fully apparent to everyone who watched it either, so getting it (or at least feeling like I got most of it) was kind of rewarding, on top of the natural catharsis of the film's story.

Ozymandias

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Re: Inception
« Reply #62 on: 18 Jul 2010, 20:38 »

Definitely not going to be a big budget flop

It won't pull Dark Knight numbers, no, but it will be one of Nolan's most successful films.
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Re: Inception
« Reply #63 on: 19 Jul 2010, 02:51 »

Hey guys do you remember Insomnia? It was basically Nolan making a conventional thriller. It isn't as bad as a lot of people thought it was but it's not much of a hidden gem, either. Robin Williams does solid dramatic work.
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Re: Inception
« Reply #64 on: 19 Jul 2010, 03:08 »

I wanted to see this movie again right after seeing it.
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Re: Inception
« Reply #65 on: 19 Jul 2010, 11:54 »

I'll admit, I went in with low expectations. I'm not sure if it was because I've become pretty jaded with Hollywood productions or because the trailers really didn't provide me with a concrete reason to see this flick. My friends had to practically drag me out of the house to see it.

Maybe that's why I enjoyed it as much as I did. Not only was I pleasantly surprised by a piece of great story-telling that didn't need over-the-top CG to redeem a piss-poor plot, but it was a movie that required my conscious attention. I rarely go to see a movie a second time in theaters but I will definitely be back for this. What's more, Hans Zimmer did the score for Inception and I have to say that I'm a big fan of his.


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RallyMonkey

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Re: Inception
« Reply #66 on: 19 Jul 2010, 14:11 »

One important thing about this movie, I feel, is how little CG it used. Sure, there was CG, but anytime they could, they used physical sets. Some of the things they built for this film were crazy.
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jimbunny

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Re: Inception
« Reply #67 on: 19 Jul 2010, 17:15 »

That ending is really the only way it could have have gone. Nothing else would've been dramatically sufficient or cause the audience to audibly gasp. It definitely helps to drag up discussion, sort of like eXistenZ or Videodrome.


SPOILERS:






No, that's exactly it. Even if it is a dramatic and well done moment, it doesn't inspire discussion, precisely because it's the same knee-jerk, "OMG it's like not real!" play that you get in almost every movie of this sort. Elsewhere in the movie, it's clever because it works. (I loved most of the movie, by the way - just not this part.)  However, there's absolutely no reason given the internal logic of the film (that I could tell, anyway) that the ending scene should not be in "real life." I don't think anything that happened up to that point left that possibility open. So it ends up feeling like a cheap parting shot from the director, who's saying something like "No, it doesn't actually have to be this way...because I'm the director and I say so. So, nyeh!" In fact, I think the uncertainty in the last scene undermines discussion, because it gives you a free, "well whatever, doesn't matter anyway, it's just his dream" pass from the moral reality of the film. And this is a film that relies on its moral cruxes.
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scarred

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Re: Inception
« Reply #68 on: 19 Jul 2010, 17:18 »

i think you are discussing it right now actually
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Re: Inception
« Reply #69 on: 19 Jul 2010, 17:26 »

SPOILERS!










Considering the top was spinning, but it wasn't a smooth spin and it was jolting like it was going to fall over soon, I do not think it was a dream. However, giving a perfectly happy ending would not match up with the rest of the film and I like the slight unsettled feeling at the end that there is a slight possibility that it could not be real. Like they say in the movie, sometimes it becomes hard to tell what is actually real. If it's a dream, that dream has become his reality. I like open ended endings because it gives me the chance to imagine what happens after the story ends.











END SPOILER!
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jimbunny

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Re: Inception
« Reply #70 on: 19 Jul 2010, 17:35 »

SPOILERS (not really)




Really? That doesn't seem to you to break into the reality of the film, just so the movie maker can have a nod at the audience? If there was a point to be made, it should have been made in the two and a half hours previous. Just saying.
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Re: Inception
« Reply #71 on: 19 Jul 2010, 18:26 »

SPOILER OILERS




They did though, sort of. In the "assemble the team" part of the movie Cobb uses his spinning top to try and discern whether he's dreaming, but he's interrupted by Saito before he completes the test. The question is raised then.

Also I'm not sure how much time has passed in "reality" since Cobb's wife punches her own ticket, but it certainly seems like their kids haven't aged at all since he went on the lam.


END SPOILERS.
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Re: Inception
« Reply #72 on: 19 Jul 2010, 18:33 »

Yeah, there's subtle hints throughout the film as to whether or not the whole thing may or may not be real, so I feel it was appropriate to end it that way. And filmmakers give nods to the audience at the ending of movies a lot. I don't see how this should be any different, considering it doesn't detract from the story at all.
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scarred

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Re: Inception
« Reply #73 on: 19 Jul 2010, 18:34 »

EVERYTHING IN THIS THREAD FROM HERE ON IN IS SPOILER


ok anyway yeah that was one thing I did notice, his kids were the exact same age (and were wearing the exact same clothes) when he "got home" sooo hmm
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Re: Inception
« Reply #74 on: 19 Jul 2010, 18:55 »







It's obvious that it was reality, had they still been in a dream then his wife would've woken him up to say i told you so just after killing herself.
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De_El

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Re: Inception
« Reply #75 on: 19 Jul 2010, 19:02 »

I kind of thought the point of the top spin at the end was that, really, the hypothetical result of the "test" was irrelevant. It was just a parting shot on how easy it is to suggest doubt. It wasn't even a fully formed idea, just the kernel of one, so to speak.

RallyMonkey

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Re: Inception
« Reply #76 on: 19 Jul 2010, 19:09 »

Whatever happened to the top is irrelevant, as the whole point of the object is being the only person who knows how it's weighted and moves, and as he mentioned in the movie, it belonged to his wife. So the results are moot.
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Lines

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Re: Inception
« Reply #77 on: 19 Jul 2010, 19:38 »

I was of the understanding that he took it after she died and made it into his totem. So really, no one alive other than him knows how it feels.
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RallyMonkey

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Re: Inception
« Reply #78 on: 19 Jul 2010, 19:48 »

The point of the idol is to make sure you're not in someone else's dream. So if the top continued spinning, of course it's a dream. But if the top doesn't stop spinning, it doesn't mean it's not a dream. Because the point is not the spinning of it, but just if it feels right to DiCaprio's character.

I was only mentioning the fact that his wife knew the weight and feel of it, because if we were to take the "It's all a dream" route, there's nothing to say that his wife was in fact dead, as we would have no idea where the dream began.
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scarred

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Re: Inception
« Reply #79 on: 19 Jul 2010, 20:15 »

new theory: inception is the sequel to shutter island and really dicaprio's character just hallucinated all of this
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Re: Inception
« Reply #80 on: 19 Jul 2010, 22:35 »

Holy fucking shit, that was amazing.  I can't describe how awesome that movie was, and how much my head hurts thinking through all the things.
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Re: Inception
« Reply #81 on: 19 Jul 2010, 22:40 »

Scarred, that's actually pretty close to my theory. The whole film is just the dream of some guy. The symbolism, rules, and other not reality qualities matter to him, but from our view it's just abstract. That makes the movie to a degree very reflexive and needs that final shot. The events are false to the characters as it is to us as an audience. It's almost like asking why should we care about a fiction. DiCaprio's answer by turning away from the totem suggests to just live with it as it will leave him happy and without regret and obsession. For us obviously those aspects don't go into play and that's just another level to the film, but still has some significance to what I'm talking about.
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jimbunny

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Re: Inception
« Reply #82 on: 20 Jul 2010, 06:58 »

Nothing precludes Joseph Gordon Levitt's character from being a robot, either, but that doesn't mean there aren't subtle hints to that effect.

And I noticed the kids as well, but my objection isn't just to the spinning top, it's to the suggestion that everything might actually be a lie. And that, by the way, is how the rest of the movie frames it - as a distinction between truth and lies; the force of the movie is behind the idea of truth - reality, consequences - as the thing that must be returned to, no matter how enticing the lie. The movie's sudden "eh, maybe not" moment undercuts all that with an idea (reality is an illusion, it's all in your head, etc.) which is, pragmatically speaking, useless. If I can compare this movie to The Matrix, they're thematically very similar. It's just that the latter films (even after two disastrous sequels) still held on to the "real world" as its core value component. I feel like Inception sacrificed (or at least toyed with sacrificing) its quest for "what is important" for the sake of that gasp from the audience. That's why I thought it was cheap; it makes the rest of a good movie cheaper.
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RallyMonkey

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Re: Inception
« Reply #83 on: 20 Jul 2010, 08:25 »

I saw it again last night.

As to the kids, they are definitely older. As they're played by different actors, which is backed up by the credits. With:

Phillipa (3 years)
James (20 months)

Phillipa (5 years)
James (3 years)

And I still think it's important to sit back and realize what the totems are meant for, as far as I understand it. They're purely to know that you're not in someone else's dream. It has nothing to do with the spinning of the top, but just if it feels right to Cobb. If he was in someone else's dream, which he would be if he never got out of the Inception, he would not be comfortable with the idol.

So this leaves three options:

He's not dreaming.
He's in his own dream.
He's in Mal's dream.

Even if the top does stop spinning, it doesn't preclude any of these possibilities, as there's nothing saying that the top has to keep spinning if it's a dream, Mal just had it do so when she was dreaming.

Though, another possibility is that limbo doesn't really work under the limits set by the movie. They kept mentioning that Cobb had been to limbo before, but they had never actually shown that in the film as far as I could see. The world Cobb and Mal created was just in a nested dream. So, if he did go to limbo, it would be when they killed themselves by train. In which case, I would say our best option is that the entire movie takes place in that limbo, since he doesn't ever mention actually going.

I am putting way too much thought into this.
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jimbunny

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Re: Inception
« Reply #84 on: 20 Jul 2010, 09:02 »

Sorry, RM, didn't see your post.

If he's still in a dream, though, Cobb should still be in Limbo (we assume that Cobb and Saito shoot themselves in order to wake up, just as Cobb and Mal killed themselves on the tracks to wake up the first time). Cobb washes up onto the beach even though he was already in Limbo (after talking to/being knifed by Mal for the last time), which implies that you just keep going back each time you die, unless something happens to allow you to wake up. Therefore, showing up on the plane would be absolutely unlike previous experience. To me, if the movie is held to be consistent, this suggests that either: a) Cobb and Saito succeed at waking up (possibly as a result of the 10-hour dream ending), or b) dreaming operates differently than how we've been told, and the whole movie has taken place in someone's (probably Cobb's) subconscious where there are actually no rules as such. I won't lie: I think, at least for how this film was made, Movie A is great and Movie B sucks.
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Re: Inception
« Reply #85 on: 20 Jul 2010, 10:25 »

I took the totem at the end to be representing everything being back in balance in Cobb's life after being reunited with his children. The totem isn't spinning perfectly like in an earlier dream and, looking at it, it seems possible for it to spin evenly on its axis in the real world (sort of like in the film Truth And Consequences: New Mexico).
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Re: Inception
« Reply #86 on: 20 Jul 2010, 10:30 »


SPOILERS

I don't think the ambiguous ending cheapens the film. Nolan isn't going for an 'twist" ending; he's just toying with the themes of reality and perception that have been in play for the whle movie. One of the many different readings you can take away from the film (in my opinion) is that the whole movie is a reflection on movies in general. Movie and dream logic often behave the same way. The team Cobb assembles and the preperation they go throgh is not unlike a film crew. What Nolan's ultimately saying is that the catharsis found in a dream is as real as the catharsis found in a movie is as real as the catharsis found in life. The revelation Fischer has with his father in the fortress is real for him, even in the journey and circumstances aren't. Same with the denouncement; Cobb may not be in reality anymore, but he is finally able to let Mal go and return home to his kids again. Like the old man says in the dream dungeon earlier in the film; "The dream has become their reality. Who are you to say otherwise?" People may say it cheapens the film because everything is "fake," but that's exactly what Nolan is arguing against. Dreams are like a movie; both are fictional and "don't matter" but the catharsis we feel at the end is the same.

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Re: Inception
« Reply #87 on: 20 Jul 2010, 14:33 »

For what ever reason I half expected the kids to turn to him all those times, but not have faces.

Also the two women in front of my cousin and I said this at the end, "The top looked like it was about to fall"
« Last Edit: 22 Jul 2010, 11:32 by Blue Kitty »
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Re: Inception
« Reply #88 on: 21 Jul 2010, 08:08 »

Had a conversation about Inception with a friend of mine recently via facebook and I think some good points were made on both sides. In case you care to read a fair bit:

Me: Either of you guys see Inception? Got around to it earlier today and I gotta say I loved it. I don't remember being wowed by a movie in the same way since I saw The Matrix when I was a wee lad. It's rare that I see a movie and immediately want to watch it again when it cuts to black but I could have definitely sat through this again. There's so much cool stuff going on visually and while the whole premise runs the risk of being ridiculous and gimicky I think it's too much fun and too much of a joy visually that it manages to avoid getting bogged down by some of its more obvious potential flaws. It's a darn cool interpretation of a heist film and a pretty sublime action flick. Plus it's a huge relief to see DiCaprio in a role similar to his from 'Shutter Island' but in a film far less overwrought and yawn-inducing than that clunker. Thank god this summer has produced one good movie. Thoughts?



friend: I saw Inception last sunday, and feel mixed. I had a great time actually watching it, but it began to sour on me as soon as I left the theater. It inspired a lot of thoughts, both positive and negative about the movie and about Nolan's career in general, that I hadn't been able to consider until I saw Inception.

I think part of the problem was that, following all that endless exposition regarding what can and can't happen in dreams, Nolan was ultimately just writing the rules to install regular action movie standards, so that our heroes face real death, must adventure to various striking locales, and face anonymous henchmen at every turn. It's interesting that you mention the Matrix, which also used the alternate reality device to permit otherwise implausible action sequences and special effects in our own recognizable world. But the Matrix, to me, felt so connected to the concerns of its time and also mixed a really smart cocktail of its influences that ultimately made the film's rules feel like more than just excuses for cool fight scenes. Inception is way more insular, and its expository rule-book feels precisely like that set of excuses that the Matrix avoided but that Nolan makes to allow for silly scenes of extreme-sport shoot-outs, death within dreams, and the like.

I've noticed that every Nolan film, sans the Batman series, ends on a moment of self-awareness. In Memento, it's Leonard Shelby's final line, "Now, where were we?", a question that seems rhetorical but actually signals the audience's long-awaited inclusion into the truth of Shelby's condition, and thus the narrative as a whole, following a fragmented sequences of intentional confusion. In The Prestige, Michael Caine's mentor character (essentially reprised in Inception) reiterates the structure behind a professional magic trick to remind viewers that, if they had been attentive enough, they could have spotted the twist ending well before it its ultimate revelation by the magician/director. Inception follows suit, further revealing Nolan's take on the film director as a con-man, a liar, who withholds and discloses information until his manipulation of the audience is complete. This is incredibly, bewilderingly cynical to me, and so it is no wonder that Nolan's protagonists (Shelby, Cobb, Alfred Borden of the Prestige) are all self-deceiving obsessives who will gladly forgo their deepest convictions to maintain a gratifying charade. Which I think ultimately means that Nolan is pretty out of touch with our own real emotional nature even as his screenplays make their claims over the human condition.

That said, I still had a great time watching it, and I loved the whole cast. I think they did an excellent job bringing weight to all the tension. The movie sucked me in, which is exactly what, to me, Nolan is good at. Being the con-man, the dreamer, getting me absorbed into something so that only after its over (and I've "woken up", so to speak) do I feel my doubts. The ending scene, right before the cut to black, is proof of that. Dimwitted viewers will scour this scene for meaning and turn it into message-board fodder in the hopes of increasing their understanding of Nolan's convoluted world. But that's missing the point. It's simply one of the film's exciting moments, when we of the audience get to acknowledge the instinctual thrills of Nolan's deception, even if we disapprove. I think it's also a self-aware moment, saying very blatantly, This film was a dream, get up and go back to reality.

And I agree that the visuals were just absolutely striking. Old Ken Watanabe was pretty haunting ("Come back and let's be young men together") and Joseph Gordon-Levitt's whole zero-gravity fight was just so much fun to watch. On a level of tried-and-true craftsmanship in an era of clunky CGI, it begs a question that I haven't had the pleasure of asking since possibly Terminator 2 made the action genre look real: "How did they do that?!", which is a thrill that I doubt I'll ever consider myself above. As far as summer moviegoing goes, it was definitely worth my money.



me:
A lot of valid points there. My reaction too was a gut one, a visceral response based upon that awe that both you and I already mentioned. That "how'd they do that?!" wonder is something I'm finding increasingly rare these days. Rarer still is the implementation of those moments in such a way that I only asked myself that question once the film ended - before that it had absorbed me too much to take the time to speculate. Don't get me wrong, I'm not calling this some triumphant masterpiece. It's an action movie, a heist flick, a somnambulant Italian Job. And while I think there may be a bit more to the film's world than an series of excuses for cool action sequences, I would probably still have really like this movie even if things were that simple: The shootouts and fight scenes were just that mesmerizing and fun to watch. Good action sequences are so hard to pull off, especially in today's cinematic climate where over the top CGI has come to be confused with well done and interesting combat. I think it's safe to say these were by far the best since Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon's lush, near balletic bamboo forest sword duel.

Maybe praising this movie so much for that alone is being narrow minded but I do think there was more to it. The acting was all spot on for the most part. I was surprised that Ellen Paige was pretty good, Leo redeemed himself from that aforementioned travesty that was Shutter Island, and Michael Cain, even when his inclusion is token and largely pointless like it was here, is always fun to watch. That's to say nothing of Marion Cotillard, whose menacing, almost operatic femme fatale performance was the film's best.

I have to wonder if Nolan see's the director either as a con man or as a magician. I think there's a difference. Inception, and Momento as well, have this surface level trick that sounds like it would make for an endlessly confusing movie but neither are. They both make complete sense. I found Inception pretty effortless to follow. I think Nolan acknowledges that the potential for confusion is there - "Wait, so whose subconscious are we going into?" asks Ellen Page at one point - but he somehow seems to make it make sense in the world of his films (speaking of which, I really appreciated that this movie was a piece of speculative fiction, not sci-fi. Just because we have the technology to enter dreams doesn't mean we need flying cars and laser guns and I'm so pleased that Nolan realized that). To me, that line and several other moments indicates that he isn't pretending that he's not playing a game, fabricating things, playing with the audience in a way that builds expectations, breaks them, surprises them with bells, whistles, finales that leave you wondering. Like any good magician, that is. I don't see in Nolan's film some cynical attempt to baffle the viewer until a final "gotchya!" moment. I think his motives are more pure. Like I said above, I'm not much of a Nolan fan but I think I see his sleight of hand tricks, his manipulations, as more of a magic trick that is Nolan's way of reveling in what he thinks cinema can do. To me, accusing Nolan of cynical manipulation would be like accusing the guy who pulls the rabbit out of a hat and cuts his assistant in half with a saw of the same: sure, both are out to "get" the audience, to elicit that big gasp, but they're also out there to make you feel awestruck, to give you a sense of wonder in the same way movies did when you were a kid. Like I said, Inception struck me in a way that I haven't felt since I saw The Matrix opening night on the big screen. To me, that's a hugely redeeming quality. It's gotta be worth something, in any case.

me, again:
Speaking of the Matrix though, I will grant that Inception did feel more insular, less connected in any real way to our world, less a product of our zeitgeist. There was an whisper of something - Wattanabe insists that the inception must be a success to prevent Fischer's firm from gaining "total energy dominance" - that seems like the potential for a more clear cut eco-friendly, anti-corporatist, "look at the dangers and depredations of big energy" kinda message was there. Or it coulda just been corporate intrigue, one big energy mogul trying to stop another from becoming even bigger in the same of self preservation. There wasn't much more than a whiff of either. Maybe Nolan had no interest in being political which shouldn't necessarily be a criticism but yeah, in this case, the stakes maybe could have been higher. Why, for example, am I really rooting for these guys? I don't know much about them, their motives (for the most part), or the stakes of failure other than no pay day for most of the team, no reunion for Leo - and that's a lot of weight on DiCaprio's shoulders since the only reason we therefore truly want the mission to succeed is for Cobb to get his life back. A dangerous move on Nolan's part, that, and since you mentioned it I do wish there had been a bit more there, some kind of genuine relevance to our current situation.
« Last Edit: 21 Jul 2010, 08:24 by TheFuriousWombat »
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Re: Inception
« Reply #89 on: 21 Jul 2010, 10:36 »

it is no wonder that Nolan's protagonists (Shelby, Cobb, Alfred Borden of the Prestige) are all self-deceiving obsessives who will gladly forgo their deepest convictions to maintain a gratifying charade. Which I think ultimately means that Nolan is pretty out of touch with our own real emotional nature even as his screenplays make their claims over the human condition.
Ha! Ha. As if living in the social and political realities of the Western world did not involve countless self-deceptions for the purposes of gratification. I actually laughed out loud when I read that. Tell your friend to take a trip to Nicaragua for a few weeks. His "emotional nature" will disintegrate.

« Last Edit: 21 Jul 2010, 10:42 by KvP »
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Re: Inception
« Reply #90 on: 21 Jul 2010, 17:01 »

i've never been in a packed theater where everyone collectively gasped and said "AWWWWW" as the film cut to black before.

I'm glad I walked into Inception without knowing anything about it.

These two quotes sum up my experience of this film. I absolutely loved it, even though I can't stomach violence in films - it was good enough to offset that. There were no plot holes papered over, no stupid explanations that didn't fit the film's reality, and the ending was perfect.

Also, it was the first time in my entire life that I've ever seen a cinema full. We had to sit on the absolute front row because we arrived a little after the ads started and it was totally packed. Some friends tried to get in and had to pre-book tickets for the later showing instead because they were full.
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Re: Inception
« Reply #91 on: 21 Jul 2010, 17:06 »

It wasn't even that violent! It was basically Ocean's Eleven in metaphysical space.
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Re: Inception
« Reply #92 on: 21 Jul 2010, 17:07 »

You misunderstand me: I felt ill watching the bird explode in Shrek. I cannot stomach ANY violence in films.
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Re: Inception
« Reply #93 on: 23 Jul 2010, 01:08 »

I saw this again tonight and I have to admit enjoying it so much more than I originally did (my first take on the film was something along the lines of, "It looked really good! I barely noticed it was sort of a dumb movie.") It absolutely has its flaws (should I expound on this or is this thread retired already?), and I am basically always bothered by the overly self-serious tone Nolan takes in all his work, but I don't think I gave it enough credit for being a 'smart' movie on the nature of filmmaking and reality. I went with a friend who thought the ending was a total gimmick and I wanted to smack him the face because it is totally thematically in sync with the rest of the movie. All the stuff about "telling yourself what you know, but what do you believe", that is totally the ending! Cobb's not a slave to reason anymore, he's taken a leap of faith and chosen a reality etc. etc.

Also, I think it's pretty easy to take a lot of these performances for granted, especially because of some of the astoundingly stupid dialogue, but I'm really impressed with how Marion Cotillard makes her pretty pretty face so hostile and threatening. Considering the handicaps of the role (a lot of her lines don't register in the first viewing, and she's less a character and more a construction of Cobb's memory), I think she was really quite terrific in this.
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Re: Inception
« Reply #94 on: 24 Jul 2010, 02:07 »

I loved this moment, in Fischer's second dream:

Ariadne: Everyone suddenly started staring at us.
Arthur: I see. Quick, give me a kiss.
- They kiss -
Ariadne: They're still staring.
Arthur: Well, it was worth a try.
- Arthur walks away -

I almost missed it, if it weren't for the rest of the audience laughing. Anyway, what I thought was exceptionally well executed was the handwaving, in the sense that there was barely anything that needed to be handwaved. What completely made the suspension of disbelief in this one is all the assumptions that went in the basic premise. Think about it: They never mention how it is possible to enter someone else's dream. They never say what the buzzing machine in the metallic case does. Everything they explain about how the dream world works overshadows how they get into the dream world in the first place. The whole concept is so engraved in the film that there appears to be an entire college education dedicated to the science of dreams, which Ariadne came from.

As a whole I really enjoyed the movie, especially its theme of "You don't control your mind, your mind controls you", but in some places it was indeed a bit obvious how the dream-world rules existed to give you a pretty show. Needing a 'kick' to awake from the dream, what better excuse to make everything end with a big bang?
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Re: Inception
« Reply #95 on: 24 Jul 2010, 02:46 »

I don't think the implication was that there is a "science of dreams" that people are trained for. The impression that I seem to get was that dream manipulation is taboo and/or illegal, certainly in terms of extraction and inception, but there's also the telling scene in the chemist's basement that is essentially an opium den for dreamers. Dream manipulation is insinuated to have long-term effects on faculties ala psychedelic drug use. Also there's the fact that Ariadne is apparently unaware of the technology prior to her integration into the group. I think it's more the case that the architect controlling the dream on the macro scale is just that, an architect, someone with a very high spatial intelligence who can make sense of complex structures and designs.

Even though the answer to the question is probably beside the point of the film, I keep going back to the beginning of the film and weighing how what we see impacts the "reality" of the film. I think there are definitely a lot of elements that keep the question open - knowing that on some level the film would toy with the perceptions of the characters and the viewer (as all Nolan non-Batman films have) I watched the film like a hawk for things that seemed off, and there was quite a bit. Perhaps it's just an unintentional byproduct of how break-neck the pace of the movie is and how little is explained prior to the beginning of Cillian Murphy's dream, but I did notice the faceless and ruthless nature of Cobalt Engineering, and how they seemed to come out of nowhere, not unlike the antibody-like entities of the subconscious. As noted in this spoilerific discussion, there is a certain weird quality to the entire excursion that Cobb takes to acquire the aid of Ames and the chemist, beyond the sudden appearance of Cobalt / Saito. The aerial shots of the city are especially labyrinthine (which, granted, could be a simple visual motif throughout the film in and out of dreamspace, but there might also be a greater significance).

But more than that, the first point at which I figured something was off was when Cobb was speaking to his children over the phone. I suspected that it was over the phone was important - at that point I began to question whether there was something going on with Cobb, whether he was conjuring up the voices of his children (my first guess was that his children died in whatever calamity befell his wife). I remember him using his spinning top but I also seem to remember him handling his gun with some uncertainty - I'll have to look again on second viewing but in retrospect I think it's certainly a moment of doubt, with Cobb wondering if he might wake up if he shot himself.
« Last Edit: 24 Jul 2010, 03:05 by KvP »
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Re: Inception
« Reply #96 on: 24 Jul 2010, 07:21 »

Of course he wonders. He's coming unglued from the unresolved trauma of Mal's psychosis/suicide and his own frequent contact with the idea of unreality. But his victory at the end isn't that he overcomes an obsession with reality and is content to live in a dreamworld; it's that he has persevered and attained that reality. If, after the end of the movie, Cobb comes back and sees the top spinning, or is somehow unable (as he might already be) to fully convince himself of reality, I think it crushes him. The movie becomes a tragedy.

Here's a theory: Nolan wanted to make (or should have made) this movie more of a tragedy (more along the lines of Memento) but for some reason (studio pressure, for example) didn't. Thus, being neither one thing nor the other, it's a bit of a mess, but unique and intriguing all the same. This is actually why I hated The Prestige the first time I saw it - it's such a genre free-for-all. But that improved after a few viewings, so maybe I should give this one the same chance.
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Re: Inception
« Reply #97 on: 24 Jul 2010, 14:34 »

I don't think it was supposed to be a tragedy. The rules of inception are important thematically - as the team has to bring Cillian Murphy to a place of resolution and catharsis in order for it to work, so does Cobb come to a place of resolution and catharsis with his past.

That's not even getting to the fact that the move was essentially Ocean's Eleven, complete with elaborate, high-stakes heist and an escape that has to be pulled off with extreme precision in order for everyone to make it out.
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Re: Inception
« Reply #98 on: 25 Jul 2010, 01:57 »

I loved this moment, in Fischer's second dream:

Ariadne: Everyone suddenly started staring at us.
Arthur: I see. Quick, give me a kiss.
- They kiss -
Ariadne: They're still staring.
Arthur: Well, it was worth a try.
- Arthur walks away -

I almost missed it, if it weren't for the rest of the audience laughing. Anyway, what I thought was exceptionally well executed was the handwaving, in the sense that there was barely anything that needed to be handwaved. What completely made the suspension of disbelief in this one is all the assumptions that went in the basic premise. Think about it: They never mention how it is possible to enter someone else's dream. They never say what the buzzing machine in the metallic case does. Everything they explain about how the dream world works overshadows how they get into the dream world in the first place. The whole concept is so engraved in the film that there appears to be an entire college education dedicated to the science of dreams, which Ariadne came from.

As a whole I really enjoyed the movie, especially its theme of "You don't control your mind, your mind controls you", but in some places it was indeed a bit obvious how the dream-world rules existed to give you a pretty show. Needing a 'kick' to awake from the dream, what better excuse to make everything end with a big bang?

that part was great.

i believe the purpose of the case was two-fold.  firstly, it supplied and regulated the drugs for inducing sleep.  secondly, it connected everyone so they'd be in the right dream.  i don't think there was any implication that you could just fall asleep without any sort of gear and wander into someone's dream.
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Re: Inception
« Reply #99 on: 01 Aug 2010, 17:47 »

I don't think it's been posted yet, but here's an Inception comic leading up to the movie.
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