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Author Topic: Theory on Penelope  (Read 16672 times)

Thorbard

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Re: Theory on Penelope
« Reply #50 on: 27 Jun 2010, 10:53 »

I'll add that Ancient Greece does not seem to have been a good place and time to be a lesbian.
Ancient Greece wasn't a good place and time to be a woman, full stop. Pretty much all cultures treat women as inferior beings, but the Ancient Greeks regarded us as not quite human.

And, by the same basis, all women see themselves as superior beings to us menfolk.
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IanClark

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Re: Theory on Penelope
« Reply #51 on: 27 Jun 2010, 12:39 »

Pretty much all cultures treat women as inferior beings,

Quote from: Thorbard
And, by the same basis, all women see themselves as superior beings to us menfolk.

I'm going to be the first to point out that these comments are both flawed in the exact same way.
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Thorbard

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Re: Theory on Penelope
« Reply #52 on: 27 Jun 2010, 14:53 »

Pretty much all cultures treat women as inferior beings,

Quote from: Thorbard
And, by the same basis, all women see themselves as superior beings to us menfolk.

I'm going to be the first to point out that these comments are both flawed in the exact same way.

That was exactly my point.
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jwhouk

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Re: Theory on Penelope
« Reply #53 on: 27 Jun 2010, 15:40 »

you're painting with a pretty wide brush there
No, Akima's point was pretty much accurate.
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Akima

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Re: Theory on Penelope
« Reply #54 on: 27 Jun 2010, 16:17 »

And, by the same basis, all women see themselves as superior beings to us menfolk.
Please note than I did not address my remark to individuals. I make no claims about the individual opinions of men or women, which can be equally silly in my experience. I referred to the judgement of the relative value of men and women made by human cultures. I have never experienced, or ever studied, any human culture that has ever treated women as being of equal value to men. I'm willing to be persuaded, but I'd require some actual evidence.

I fully accept that some cultures avoid the grosser inequalities like selective abortion, denial of equal legal rights, denial of access to education etc. But before we all develop double-jointed shoulders from patting ourselves on the back, count the number of women in the top ten best-paid professional athletes. Oh wait...  :laugh:
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raoullefere

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Re: Theory on Penelope
« Reply #55 on: 27 Jun 2010, 17:13 »

I was speaking of homosexuals—I'm well aware of how women, particularly upper-class women, were treated in ancient Athens, although Athenian customs were not necessarily representative of ancient Greece as a whole.

Beware of that word 'value.' It's not the same thing as equality. There were and are cultures where women were certainly 'valued,' which is one reason some powerful men amass large collections of them, much like gems or gold, to name a few other things people have valued more than human life, while cheerfully sending hordes of men off to die in battle or even labor. Rights, however, are another matter.

But, if we're going to talk 'value' as measured by monetary compensation, what sex has the most top paid athletes* is nowhere near the issue to me that the inequity between the pay given, say, male and female actors is, since it cannot be argued that the exact same job is being done by either gender (and sometimes women do it backwards—here's to you, Ms. Rogers!). It says more about our culture, too—people will apparently pay more, or go more times to see their favorite male actor than their favorite female actor in a given film. That's what's being claimed, in a round-about way, in any case.

Then there's the startling fact that suchlike as athletes, actors, and musicians are highly paid at all, idolized they way they are, or enjoy the social and political influence they do. But that's another subject.

*I think part of what sport is pays what is, and will always be, fad. Well, except for the hope that someone will be badly injured or killed while the audience watches. That 'fad' seems to be here to stay, having been around for a few millennia now. Take a look at what sports are truly high-pay, and how often permanent injury or death can occur while playing at a professional level, and I think you'll see a concurrence (except for soccer; that one I can't figure out). Anyway, this is paired by a certain squeamishness; apparently it's okay to see men get killed in the boxing ring, but not women. Many people watching female boxing don't even want to see the fighters bleed, or their faces become deformed by bruises. In other words, we 'value' women too much to see them come to bodily harm, and thus deny them a chance at the big bucks. Go figure.
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Alex C

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Re: Theory on Penelope
« Reply #56 on: 27 Jun 2010, 18:17 »

I always thought that comment was more than a li'l unfair to Fred given that he was considered an amazing perfectionist and choreographer as well as a dancer.
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Akima

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Re: Theory on Penelope
« Reply #57 on: 27 Jun 2010, 18:46 »

Beware of that word 'value.' It's not the same thing as equality. There were and are cultures where women were certainly 'valued,' which is one reason some powerful men amass large collections of them, much like gems or gold, much like gems or gold, to name a few other things people have valued more than human life, while cheerfully sending hordes of men off to die in battle or even labor.
The establishment of harems and the like is never about the value of the women, but is always a symbol of the wealth and status of the man. Whether the "collecting" is parallel as in the Middle-East, or serial as in Australia or the USA, the message is always the same. "Valuing" women on the same basis as a piles of gold, big houses or fancy cars, is to rate them as equivalent to inanimate objects. The term "trophy wife" sums that attitude up nicely.
Quote
But, if we're going to talk 'value' as measured by monetary compensation, what sex has the most top paid athletes* is nowhere near the issue to me that the inequity between the pay given, say, male and female actors is, since it cannot be argued that the exact same job is being done by either gender (and sometimes women do it backwards—here's to you, Ms. Rogers!). It says more about our culture, too—people will apparently pay more, or go more times to see their favorite male actor than their favorite female actor in a given film. That's what's being claimed, in a round-about way, in any case.
I couldn't agree more. I plucked professional athletes out of the air, in an atmosphere heated by the festival of improv theatre currently being held in South Africa. There is a FIFA Women's World Cup too incidentally, but you'd be hard-put to know it, or watch any of the action, since it gets barely any media attention, and I suspect that the combined pay of all the players in the tournament would be less than that of one David Beckham. Also, I live in Australia, and down here (men's) sport is the national religion.
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jwhouk

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Re: Theory on Penelope
« Reply #58 on: 27 Jun 2010, 19:18 »

<snip>
There is a FIFA Women's World Cup too incidentally, but you'd be hard-put to know it, or watch any of the action, since it gets barely any media attention, and I suspect that the combined pay of all the players in the tournament would be less than that of one David Beckham. Also, I live in Australia, and down here (men's) sport is the national religion.
That's funny, because the USA Women's World Cup squad is better known than the men's. (And NOT just because of Brandi Chastain's top-removal.)
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Re: Theory on Penelope
« Reply #59 on: 27 Jun 2010, 20:16 »

<snip>
There is a FIFA Women's World Cup too incidentally, but you'd be hard-put to know it, or watch any of the action, since it gets barely any media attention, and I suspect that the combined pay of all the players in the tournament would be less than that of one David Beckham. Also, I live in Australia, and down here (men's) sport is the national religion.
That's funny, because the USA Women's World Cup squad is better known than the men's. (And NOT just because of Brandi Chastain's top-removal.)

Since I'm an American... who two days ago was in a packed bar watching us get knocked out... and just had to check whether the tournaments overlapped or were staggered... I'm going to say you're full of it.

(Who's Brandi Chastain?)
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raoullefere

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Re: Theory on Penelope
« Reply #60 on: 27 Jun 2010, 20:17 »

I always thought that comment was more than a li'l unfair to Fred given that he was considered an amazing perfectionist and choreographer as well as a dancer.
He was, and as far as I'm concerned, the statement has nothing to do with belittling Fred, an artist I've come to admire more and more over the years since I grew up*. Many people used to say that Ginger Rogers 'simply followed Fred's lead,' and that's what, to me at any rate, is unfair. If anything, she had to anticipate him. And yet, I promise that if Astaire simply showed up to dance, he'd still get paid more.

The establishment of harems and the like is never about the value of the women, but is always a symbol of the wealth and status of the man. Whether the "collecting" is parallel as in the Middle-East, or serial as in Australia or the USA, the message is always the same. "Valuing" women on the same basis as a piles of gold, big houses or fancy cars, is to rate them as equivalent to inanimate objects. The term "trophy wife" sums that attitude up nicely.
Which is why I say the word 'value' is a dangerous, ambiguous term to use. One must stipulate for what the individual is being valued. Honestly, I'd say that far, far too many pro athletes are almost in the same boat as those women we're discussing, the only difference being that, theoretically, they are free to choose for themselves. Although how a kid with a far less than half-assed high school education is expected to negotiate contracts well enough to do that wisely is less than clear. Many are at the mercy of their agents and managers, whatever sex those persons happen to be. That's where lovely people like Don King come in.

This is interesting. We're in a thread about Penelope, debating something she'd probably weigh in on and then hyperventilate. Anyone up for that part? :-D

*So to speak.
« Last Edit: 27 Jun 2010, 20:22 by raoullefere »
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Alex C

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Re: Theory on Penelope
« Reply #61 on: 28 Jun 2010, 01:43 »

he'd still get paid more.
For what it's worth, I agree with you in regards to the general topic you're talking about and realize that the Ginger Rogers comment is just a tiny subset of a larger conversation in which I have nothing to really add. It's just that the "backwards and in heels," thing has sometimes been used as a pithy shorthand for this issue in general and I get distracted by it 'cuz Fred was a much better dancer and I'm a huge film nerd. There really was a time in her career where Ginger really did mostly just follow his lead, because she didn't really have training or experience in partnered dance so they covered for it in part with good choreography as she applied herself, like in their first partnered scene in which a certain endearing coltishness was part of the charm. But hey, she was genuinely good at the partnered thing after a film or two (although she never really could tap worth a damn) and had always been a much better at acting than Fred (she won an Academy Award, eventually.) You could make the argument that she was the better entertainer, overall, really, and I wouldn't argue it, but Fred buried her as a dancer.
« Last Edit: 28 Jun 2010, 01:56 by Alex C »
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jwhouk

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Re: Theory on Penelope
« Reply #62 on: 28 Jun 2010, 04:31 »

<snip>
There is a FIFA Women's World Cup too incidentally, but you'd be hard-put to know it, or watch any of the action, since it gets barely any media attention, and I suspect that the combined pay of all the players in the tournament would be less than that of one David Beckham. Also, I live in Australia, and down here (men's) sport is the national religion.
That's funny, because the USA Women's World Cup squad is better known than the men's. (And NOT just because of Brandi Chastain's top-removal.)

Since I'm an American... who two days ago was in a packed bar watching us get knocked out... and just had to check whether the tournaments overlapped or were staggered... I'm going to say you're full of it.

(Who's Brandi Chastain?)

Ms. Chastain was the one who scored the winning goal in penalty kicks in the 1999 Women's World Cup. After scoring the goal to complete the win over China, she disrobed, revealing her sports bra.
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raoullefere

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Re: Theory on Penelope
« Reply #63 on: 28 Jun 2010, 05:04 »

It's just that the "backwards and in heels," thing has sometimes been used as a pithy shorthand for this issue in general and I get distracted by it 'cuz Fred was a much better dancer and I'm a huge film nerd.
If it makes you feel better, put in Cyd Charisse instead (although she didn't do tap that I recall). Personally, though, I like watching Fred and Ginger dance together better, and for the general public I suspect those partnered dances were what sold the movies. For sheer dancing ability, Charisse was tops. But for some reason, I prefer to see her dance alone.
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Carl-E

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Re: Theory on Penelope
« Reply #64 on: 28 Jun 2010, 05:19 »

This is interesting. We're in a thread about Penelope, debating something she'd probably weigh in on and then hyperventilate. Anyone up for that part? :-D


HEEEEEEEEE-HYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH-HEEEEEEEEEEEEE-HYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH-HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE--------

More interesting that theres more agreement in this thread than disagreement...
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brew

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Re: Theory on Penelope
« Reply #65 on: 28 Jun 2010, 12:53 »


Ancient Greece wasn't a good place and time to be a woman, full stop. Pretty much all cultures treat women as inferior beings, but the Ancient Greeks regarded us as not quite human.

http://questionablecontent.net./view.php?comic=1143
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Carl-E

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Re: Theory on Penelope
« Reply #66 on: 29 Jun 2010, 00:59 »

Like she said, not quite human...
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