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Author Topic: Dragon Age 2: Fuckin' Bitches, Stabbin' Dragons  (Read 165676 times)

cyro

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Re: Dragon Age 2: Fuckin' Bitches, Stabbin' Dragons
« Reply #600 on: 26 Mar 2011, 04:06 »

I don't think, given another year of dev time, that issues like that would have been resolved. It's a cheap knockoff of good design that doesn't capture any of the good elements of DA:O or ME2, despite all attempts.

Eh, I'm inclined to disagree. A lot of the things you listed aren't issues to me, personally, the only major problem I have with DA2 is my afformentioned story issues which, I strongly suspect, could well have been fixed with a longer development cycle.
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Re: Dragon Age 2: Fuckin' Bitches, Stabbin' Dragons
« Reply #601 on: 26 Mar 2011, 11:11 »

john why didn't you ever quote gaider from the Straight Male Gamer thread, his response is surprisingly lucid

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To the OP: doing the same act repeatedly and expecting different results is the definition of insanity. What you hope to achieve by posting the same thread over and over again I can't honestly say.

To some of the others on this thread: While an ignorant opinion politely expressed doesn't make it less ignorant, I will say that the behavior of some of you is far worse. Calling someone a "troll" who expressed his thoughts in an intelligent manner and acting like hooligans suggesting if you just throw enough dirt that eventually that person will either go away or the thread will get locked will earn you a ban. No matter the opinion, I think how it's expressed deserves the same in kind. If you can't do that, refrain.

To the issue: I've said it before and I'll say it again-- perhaps a bit more eloquently, since it's apparently of dire concern to some.

The romances in the game are not for "the straight male gamer". They're for everyone. We have a lot of fans, many of whom are neither straight nor male, and they deserve no less attention. We have good numbers, after all, on the number of people who actually used similar sorts of content in DAO and thus don't need to resort to anecdotal evidence to support our idea that their numbers are not insignificant... and that's ignoring the idea that they don't have just as much right to play the kind of game they wish as anyone else. The "rights" of anyone with regards to a game are murky at best, but anyone who takes that stance must apply it equally to both the minority as well as the majority. The majority has no inherent "right" to get more options than anyone else.

More than that, I would question anyone deciding they speak for "the straight male gamer" just as much as someone claiming they speak for "all RPG fans", "all female fans" or even "all gay fans". You don't. If you wish to express your personal desires, then do so. I have no doubt that any opinion expressed on these forums is shared by many others, but since none of them have elected a spokesperson you're better off not trying to be one. If your attempt is to convince BioWare developers, I can tell you that you do in fact make your opinion less convincing by doing so.

And if there is any doubt why such an opinion might be met with hostility, it has to do with privilege. You can write it off as "political correctness" if you wish, but the truth is that privilege always lies with the majority. They're so used to being catered to that they see the lack of catering as an imbalance. They don't see anything wrong with having things set up to suit them, what's everyone's fuss all about? That's the way it should be, any everyone else should be used to not getting what they want.

The truth is that making a romance available for both genders is far less costly than creating an entirely new one. Does it create some issues of implementation? Sure-- but anything you try on this front is going to have its issues, and inevitably you'll always leave someone out in the cold. In this case, are all straight males left out in the cold? Not at all. There are romances available for them just the same as anyone else. Not all straight males require that their content be exclusive, after all, and you can see that even on this thread.

Would I do it again? I don't know. I doubt I would have Anders make the first move again-- at the time, I thought that requiring all romances to have Hawke initiate everything was the unrealistic part. Even if someone decides that this makes everyone "unrealistically" bisexual, however, or they can't handle the idea that the character might be bisexual if they were another PC... I don't see that as a big concern, to be honest. Romances are never one-size-fits-all, and even for those who don't mind the sexuality issue there's no guarantee they'll find a character they even want to romance. That's why romances are optional content. It's such a personal issue that we'll never be able to please everyone. The very best we can do is give everyone a little bit of choice, and that's what we tried here.

And the person who says that the only way to please them is to restrict options for others is, if you ask me, the one who deserves it least. And that's my opinion, expressed as politely as possible.

In a wall of text. Sorry about that. /images/forum/emoticons/smile.png

And I'm sorry if someone didn't get everything they wanted out of the romances-- as I always am. I wish we could do the ideal where there's something for every desire and opinion, but as usual we make do.
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Re: Dragon Age 2: Fuckin' Bitches, Stabbin' Dragons
« Reply #602 on: 26 Mar 2011, 12:32 »

Gaider had been quiet for a bit so I was focusing on Laidlaw. Yeah, he comported himself well. Just give him another few days and he'll put his foot firmly in his mouth again, in all likelihood.
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Re: Dragon Age 2: Fuckin' Bitches, Stabbin' Dragons
« Reply #603 on: 26 Mar 2011, 14:42 »

It'll be cool when Bioware grows up and realizes that there's good reasons for characters to have sexualities other than to enable you to have sex with them.
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Re: Dragon Age 2: Fuckin' Bitches, Stabbin' Dragons
« Reply #604 on: 26 Mar 2011, 14:46 »

Maybe where you hang out.

I'm really not sure whether I should look into getting this or not. I enjoyed DA:O although I never finished it (got distracted with other games) and have never really felt the desire to go back to it, either... likely because I'd gotten pretty far through and have a thing where I need to start from scratch if I've not played a game for a long time.

The feedback saying they've moved it closer to a kind of Mass Effect 2 in a fantasy setting strikes me as a bad thing also, despite the fact I absolutely love ME2. I'm kind of like... that's not really what I would want from the DA franchise?
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Re: Dragon Age 2: Fuckin' Bitches, Stabbin' Dragons
« Reply #605 on: 26 Mar 2011, 17:04 »

It'll be cool when Bioware grows up and realizes that there's good reasons for characters to have sexualities other than to enable you to have sex with them.
Play New Vegas! There are gay characters who just hang around and are gay without the player's permission! It's awesome!
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Re: Dragon Age 2: Fuckin' Bitches, Stabbin' Dragons
« Reply #606 on: 26 Mar 2011, 17:45 »

bioware wants you to be able to romance characters, obsidian doesn't, apples and oranges imo
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Re: Dragon Age 2: Fuckin' Bitches, Stabbin' Dragons
« Reply #607 on: 26 Mar 2011, 21:53 »

Bioware narratives fall into the traditional hero journey which tends to involve "hero gets the girl". Ain't that big of a deal, no.
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Re: Dragon Age 2: Fuckin' Bitches, Stabbin' Dragons
« Reply #608 on: 27 Mar 2011, 05:02 »

It'll be cool when Bioware grows up and realizes that there's good reasons for characters to have sexualities other than to enable you to have sex with them.
Play New Vegas! There are gay characters who just hang around and are gay without the player's permission! It's awesome!

Indeed. Arcade is possibly the best gay, game character ever written. Everyone goes on and on about Bioware's characters, but I seriously think Obsidian has them beat hands down.
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Re: Dragon Age 2: Fuckin' Bitches, Stabbin' Dragons
« Reply #609 on: 27 Mar 2011, 10:06 »

That's also because Bioware releases games (not necessarily this one) that are incredibly well-made.  Obsidian's track record is not fantastic at all and it's harder to leap praise on the people who made Alpha Protocol. 

They may write better characters and stories but the game part of their games need way more work.
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Re: Dragon Age 2: Fuckin' Bitches, Stabbin' Dragons
« Reply #610 on: 27 Mar 2011, 10:43 »

No it ain't.  Obsidian is the bee's tits. 

Their main problem comes from being hired to make sequels for other people; their deadlines are much stricter than others.  What's usually the first part of development to get the chopping block when time is running out? Bugfixing.  I'm 95% certain they already knew about a lot of the bugs their games had before release, but had to skip over fixing them so they'd make their ship date.  I'm not even certain they were given the time for compatibility testing for a lot of those games.  If I recall correctly, Fallout 3 only got like 2 weeks of it, so I'm pretty sure New Vegas got none.  The games themselves are really solid, just a bit more broken than people generally like them to be.

I hope I'm not starting something by saying all that, I just work in QA and don't much like seeing people discredit developers for putting up with the harsh reality of deadlines as best they can.  Good QA and bugfixing are generally the line in the sand between a game being 'well-made' and everything else.  A lot of developers have the first part of that, but no time for the second part.  Bioware is one of the lucky few, and even then they still have some issues.
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Re: Dragon Age 2: Fuckin' Bitches, Stabbin' Dragons
« Reply #611 on: 27 Mar 2011, 10:46 »

I don't know, I love Obsidian but my only real defense for the ridiculous number of bugs that get through their games are a list of my favorite RPGs and how goddamn bug addled and yet amazing they were.
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Re: Dragon Age 2: Fuckin' Bitches, Stabbin' Dragons
« Reply #612 on: 27 Mar 2011, 11:03 »

Yeah, that's basically my point.  Games can still be great, even with bugs.  Ideally, there wouldn't be so many, but if the game is still fun despite all of that, then they're doing good work.

I'm not a huge Obsidian fan or anything like that, but they do make fun games.  I do think that if they weren't forced to any deadlines or other side projects, they'd release something at least on par with ME2 or DA:O, at least in the eyes of the public.  Maybe they'll get that chance after how well New Vegas did, who knows.

But to stay on topic, I haven't played the game (I did play DA:O), but a bunch of the RPG-playing folks at work are not impressed.  I think the consensus is that the Laidlaw probably should have been a bit more flexible in his design decisions.  In DA:O, these folks were regretting decisions they made for story purposes, but in this game they've been forced into a narrower story path, and are instead regretting decisions they made because of how it affected gameplay later.
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Re: Dragon Age 2: Fuckin' Bitches, Stabbin' Dragons
« Reply #613 on: 27 Mar 2011, 11:08 »

Basically all I mean is that if anyone tries to tell me Arcanum and Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines weren't amazing I'll shit down their neck.

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Re: Dragon Age 2: Fuckin' Bitches, Stabbin' Dragons
« Reply #614 on: 27 Mar 2011, 12:10 »

^ haven't played Arcanum but completly agreed on Vampire.

The only thing I was dissapointed by was the fact that it didn't stay as a "slut 'em up" at later stages.
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Re: Dragon Age 2: Fuckin' Bitches, Stabbin' Dragons
« Reply #615 on: 27 Mar 2011, 13:03 »

Basically all I mean is that if anyone tries to tell me Arcanum and Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines weren't amazing I'll shit down their neck.
Arcanum was big potential and small payoff, dude

Although, the Truth about Half-Ogres quest is probably the single most memorable quest in any RPG I've ever played, and the only one that actually disturbed me. It's still creepy to think about. But that doesn't change the fact that pretty much every system in the game is broken.
« Last Edit: 27 Mar 2011, 13:05 by KvP »
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Re: Dragon Age 2: Fuckin' Bitches, Stabbin' Dragons
« Reply #616 on: 27 Mar 2011, 13:25 »

It'll be cool when Bioware grows up and realizes that there's good reasons for characters to have sexualities other than to enable you to have sex with them.
Play New Vegas! There are gay characters who just hang around and are gay without the player's permission! It's awesome!
I was thinking of New Vegas when I wrote that, not sure why I didn't mention it. But it's funny how most of the companions in NV is more interesting than the ones in DA:O (and I presume DA2), when the Dragon Age games rely much more on the companions as supporting cast.
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Re: Dragon Age 2: Fuckin' Bitches, Stabbin' Dragons
« Reply #617 on: 27 Mar 2011, 21:19 »

It'd be easier for me to be dismissive of it too if it weren't for the time my sister cried because she thought her skin meant she'll never be pretty. People are free to do what they want with their games, but such comments will continue to disappoint me a bit.
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Re: Dragon Age 2: Fuckin' Bitches, Stabbin' Dragons
« Reply #618 on: 27 Mar 2011, 22:06 »

DAYS AND HOURS!  DAYS AND HOURS!
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Re: Dragon Age 2: Fuckin' Bitches, Stabbin' Dragons
« Reply #619 on: 27 Mar 2011, 22:32 »

Basically all I mean is that if anyone tries to tell me Arcanum and Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines weren't amazing I'll shit down their neck.



Vampire jumped immediately to my head as I was reading Dimmukane's posts.

True story, I've probably played through Vampire more than any other game I've ever owned, I probably played it through 3 or 4 times before I even started putting mods in.
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Re: Dragon Age 2: Fuckin' Bitches, Stabbin' Dragons
« Reply #620 on: 27 Mar 2011, 22:50 »

Everybody who calls the Isabela mod racist is a pansy

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Re: Dragon Age 2: Fuckin' Bitches, Stabbin' Dragons
« Reply #621 on: 28 Mar 2011, 06:23 »

Arcanum was big potential and small payoff, dude

And I disagree! Game was broken to high hell, in both errors and game design flaws, but it was still probably one of the best worlds I've played through. Had a hell of a lot of problems you had to deal with in order to experience it but well worth it as far as I'm concerned.
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Re: Dragon Age 2: Fuckin' Bitches, Stabbin' Dragons
« Reply #622 on: 28 Mar 2011, 12:11 »

Hey, question for you though: in the Xbox 360 version can you set it so that your guys deal with their own attacks and leveling? The Mass Effect 2 demo had that setting, but still kept asking me to "tell Sally to use mind-smash" or whatever. I dunno if that was just for when it first came up so I'd lrn 2 play proprly, or if it was just lies. I'd consider picking this up cheap if I could avoid most of the micro-management bull-ess-hit.

(You can't edit the default face though? That's so weird. I thought it was a glitch in ME2 when BasicShep's skull sagged the instant you went into the customisation screen.)
Characters not under direct control of the player will attack normally with no problems, but the tactics system, such as it is, apparently has a lot of problems that have been present since the demo dropped. Some talents will be used as normal and some will be ignored, even if you specifically parse out the logic via the broken tactics system, but I can't really tell you which ones (as a general rule, the more basic the talent, the better the usage). If you set the game to casual you probably won't have many problems, busted AI or no.
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Re: Dragon Age 2: Fuckin' Bitches, Stabbin' Dragons
« Reply #623 on: 29 Mar 2011, 02:12 »

I hope that, one day, we get to hear Patton Oswalt as a dwarf.
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Re: Dragon Age 2: Fuckin' Bitches, Stabbin' Dragons
« Reply #624 on: 30 Mar 2011, 00:44 »

THOUGHTS ON AN ENDING
  • the sequence where you are forced into a binary choice was annoying – what if i hate both of them, for example? – but the way they rope you into it was shocking and interesting.
  • it's too bad the subsequent boss fights are so lacklustre. also why even bother HAVING class-specific loot in the final couple of battles?
  • in all, i actually really appreciated the framing device. and on the whole, i think the story was fairly clever – the episodes are well-thought out in terms of their actual arc, and there are neat little parallels and echoes and reverberations of all these socio-political tensions in the world that happen to come to heads at several moments. the considerations of ordinary people in this world are in a constant interplay with each other. i think their understanding of their own world, even if they've turfed it a bit with the design and approach to this game, is still secure enough and thorough enough that they can do some occasionally very wonderful things with it.
  • but the pacing was like way fucking off pretty much the whole game. it stumbles and lurches where, even in its most grindy bits, DA:O walked confidently. not to mention where mass effect 2 fuckin' strutted. the game felt lumpy and disproportionate a lot of the time.
  • y'know, i'm really crushed that you never actually get a chance to explore the gallows in-depth. the whole game you're told how dreadful it is – why not just let us see the place?
  • i miss ferelden y'all
  • by the end i was rigging up some custom tactics. nothing fancy but tweaking some settings so anders would cast haste immediately upon entering battle wound up being a good idea since it could turn my party into a crazy killing machine. it's a bit broken but you can make it work in your favour for sure.
  • the end of act II, in retrospect, felt like the real climax of the game. but act III and the ending didn't feel unfinished or necessarily unsatisfying. they're missing a denouement but the narrative wraps up at a point where it kind of makes sense to wrap it up? it's just unfortunate that they did it with a cutscene, mostly, and not an overly elegant one at that.

i have problems with it especially in terms of how constrictive and bland kirkwall and its environs are (sundermount: gaming's most boring mountain?) and i have a few problems with the writing (especially how the conversation wheel sometimes isn't really honest about the kind of thing hawke's going to say, which has led me to some seriously gritted teeth, and also how a lot of conversations don't actually change that much based on yr responses) but i also had fun with the game and i've already started a female warrior playthough (she's tough and doesn't take shit! and also looks like an anime) so that i think stands for something. not as good as origins but fun enough.
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Re: Dragon Age 2: Fuckin' Bitches, Stabbin' Dragons
« Reply #625 on: 30 Mar 2011, 00:53 »

On a scale of One to The Witcher?
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Re: Dragon Age 2: Fuckin' Bitches, Stabbin' Dragons
« Reply #626 on: 30 Mar 2011, 01:14 »

  • the sequence where you are forced into a binary choice was annoying – what if i hate both of them, for example? – but the way they rope you into it was shocking and interesting.
It's kind of a wonder they presented a choice at all, considering the endgame is exactly the same in both cases.

What did you think of Anders' twist? And the "social themes" it and the mage/templar conflict were supposed to present?
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Re: Dragon Age 2: Fuckin' Bitches, Stabbin' Dragons
« Reply #627 on: 30 Mar 2011, 11:11 »

haven't played the witcher! ~console gaming~

anders' twist was startling (although not entirely unexpected due to his last loyalty quest), although if you're asking me to draw parallels to the real world i don't think it's clear enough to do so? i'd rather not grasp at straws. in terms of the game world, it's really starkly different from how mages and templars interacted in ferelden and so like it was vaguely upsetting that the endgame said that it had an effect on all circles across thedas since conditions are obviously different.

basically all i know is that next game is gonna probably be full of blood mages and apostates and i'm gonna roll my eyes any time i see someone with a staff
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Re: Dragon Age 2: Fuckin' Bitches, Stabbin' Dragons
« Reply #628 on: 30 Mar 2011, 11:22 »

You didn't feel just a twinge when the... solution was proposed?
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Re: Dragon Age 2: Fuckin' Bitches, Stabbin' Dragons
« Reply #629 on: 30 Mar 2011, 11:33 »

I didn't because we were butt buddies. :I
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Re: Dragon Age 2: Fuckin' Bitches, Stabbin' Dragons
« Reply #630 on: 30 Mar 2011, 12:34 »

Not that solution! The Templar's solution to the Mage Problem.
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Re: Dragon Age 2: Fuckin' Bitches, Stabbin' Dragons
« Reply #631 on: 30 Mar 2011, 12:46 »

of course, but i felt the same twinge in DA:O when it was proposed. the right of annulment isn't new to DA2! and i know the specific historical analogue you're trying to tie it to but i'm not nearly certain enough that it's meant to evoke that and that alone.

(you'll also note in the codex and in DA:O that the right of annulment has been enacted more than once, too, which like if you're proposing that the solution to the mage problem is one with a certain air of, er, finality to it then that leaves those previous events out in the lurch)
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Re: Dragon Age 2: Fuckin' Bitches, Stabbin' Dragons
« Reply #632 on: 30 Mar 2011, 13:00 »

That's all fair, I just felt like the terminology they used was really heavy handed, and they were specifically trying to evoke those parallels, which, I felt like they were punching way above their weight class with the quality of the story up to that point, there was just no way to make it work.
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Re: Dragon Age 2: Fuckin' Bitches, Stabbin' Dragons
« Reply #633 on: 30 Mar 2011, 13:15 »

Isn't that almost the same though as when, in Mass Effect 2, Legion states that he has "found another solution to the Heretic question."?

That particular part kind of made me be a bit "Woah, okay guys, let's step back here."

So I guess this would be Bioware retreading old ground? I'd imagine it's purposefully done, that particular choice of terminology is, I think, pretty sure to evoke that kind of connotation.
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Re: Dragon Age 2: Fuckin' Bitches, Stabbin' Dragons
« Reply #634 on: 30 Mar 2011, 13:31 »

Sort of, but even with Legion's explanation of Geth consciousness they're still pretty much just machines / space orc cannon fodder. The Mages in DA2 are clearly set up as an oppressed minority throughout the game even as Gaider seemed weirdly intent on proving correct everything the Templars claim about them (mainly, that they're all blood mages and will turn into bloodthirsty monsters at the slightest discomfort or annoyance).
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Re: Dragon Age 2: Fuckin' Bitches, Stabbin' Dragons
« Reply #635 on: 31 Mar 2011, 00:44 »

True, but he then goes on to claim that it's the Templars extreme methods of controlling mages is driving them to blood magic so it's kind of a circular issue. What I want to know is what moron decided Kirkwall, a place where the veil is so thin it could be sundered by a mage sneezing too hard, was a good place to build a circle of magi? Really?
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Re: Dragon Age 2: Fuckin' Bitches, Stabbin' Dragons
« Reply #636 on: 31 Mar 2011, 02:42 »

/copypasta'd response from different forum 8D

Funny how the butthurts on the Bioware boards make Yahtzee's review seem moderate in comparison.
As much as I think he made a few mountains from anthills, it's what Zero Punctuation does, and while I certainly enjoyed Dragon Age II a freakin lot, he does bring up a couple points about the game which I would agree with. Other points not so much, but things like repetitive environments and odd story structure did stand out to me. Also he probably played the console version.

Interesting how he didn't mind the characters and the banter, as I know a lot of haters who loathed the companion roster for this game.
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Re: Dragon Age 2: Fuckin' Bitches, Stabbin' Dragons
« Reply #637 on: 01 Apr 2011, 10:58 »

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Re: Dragon Age 2: Fuckin' Bitches, Stabbin' Dragons
« Reply #638 on: 01 Apr 2011, 13:02 »

True, but he then goes on to claim that it's the Templars extreme methods of controlling mages is driving them to blood magic so it's kind of a circular issue. What I want to know is what moron decided Kirkwall, a place where the veil is so thin it could be sundered by a mage sneezing too hard, was a good place to build a circle of magi? Really?
It's also odd that they would place the Circle in the middle of a major urban center.
« Last Edit: 01 Apr 2011, 14:21 by KvP »
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Re: Dragon Age 2: Fuckin' Bitches, Stabbin' Dragons
« Reply #639 on: 01 Apr 2011, 14:21 »

Meanwhile, Dragon Age II is too different for Rock Paper Shotgun, and they can't handle how differently awesome it is.
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Re: Dragon Age 2: Fuckin' Bitches, Stabbin' Dragons
« Reply #640 on: 01 Apr 2011, 14:27 »

Definitely the best review I've seen yet elucidating the game's failures.
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Re: Dragon Age 2: Fuckin' Bitches, Stabbin' Dragons
« Reply #641 on: 01 Apr 2011, 15:58 »

I hope that Bioware is listening to all this stuff.  The DA setting is quite interesting, would hate to see 3 come out more like 2 than the original.  I might buy 2 once it is like, $20 or something in the bargain bin and it's had time for them to patch up all the bugs, but it's definitely not worth my money otherwise.
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Re: Dragon Age 2: Fuckin' Bitches, Stabbin' Dragons
« Reply #642 on: 01 Apr 2011, 16:01 »

Waiting for the complete/ultimate edition at $30.
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Re: Dragon Age 2: Fuckin' Bitches, Stabbin' Dragons
« Reply #643 on: 01 Apr 2011, 18:48 »

It'll be interesting, considering how hit-and-miss Bioware's DLC has been.
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Re: Dragon Age 2: Fuckin' Bitches, Stabbin' Dragons
« Reply #644 on: 02 Apr 2011, 01:25 »

Well I think at least they can argue that "give us time to finish the game" and then point at this if told to keep to a stricter schedule.
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Re: Dragon Age 2: Fuckin' Bitches, Stabbin' Dragons
« Reply #645 on: 02 Apr 2011, 21:59 »

I just found out that DA2 runs really well on the new 13" MBPs. Piracy is looking very tempting.
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Re: Dragon Age 2: Fuckin' Bitches, Stabbin' Dragons
« Reply #646 on: 03 Apr 2011, 01:56 »

The ridiculously huge range of critical responses to this game is going to make my head explode
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Re: Dragon Age 2: Fuckin' Bitches, Stabbin' Dragons
« Reply #647 on: 03 Apr 2011, 04:28 »

Its a very divisive game I'll give it that.
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Re: Dragon Age 2: Fuckin' Bitches, Stabbin' Dragons
« Reply #648 on: 05 Apr 2011, 11:08 »

So check your emails because they are giving away Mass Effect 2 PC download codes to anyone who bought Dragon Age 2.

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Re: Dragon Age 2: Fuckin' Bitches, Stabbin' Dragons
« Reply #649 on: 05 Apr 2011, 11:43 »

how nice
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